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Technomancer feedback for a new book!

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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #255 on: <08-19-15/0202:42> »
Nothing on CFD. Please, God, no more about CFD.  Enough already with CFD. Did I mention, please no CFD?

Right there with you, but I'd prefer going one step further and the whole "anti nanotech" thing be removed entirely.
« Last Edit: <08-19-15/0208:28> by All4BigGuns »
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Mirikon

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« Reply #256 on: <08-19-15/0937:24> »
1) Bring back Streams and Paragons.

2) Ally Sprites. Or whatever you want to call them. If you're going to frag up TMs by making them 'Matrix Mages', then at least give them something like this.

3) More Complex Forms.

4) Techno-Riggers or Dronomancers need to make a comeback. Not as a "You have to Submerge before you can even begin following the stream" piece of drek like there is now. Perhaps an alternate setting on the Priority table, giving them different abilities focused on rigging?

5) MAKE THEM BE ABLE TO HAVE A GHOST-DAMN PAN!!!!!!
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Dinendae

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« Reply #257 on: <08-19-15/2101:37> »
1) Bring back Streams and Paragons.

2) Ally Sprites. Or whatever you want to call them. If you're going to frag up TMs by making them 'Matrix Mages', then at least give them something like this.

3) More Complex Forms.

4) Techno-Riggers or Dronomancers need to make a comeback. Not as a "You have to Submerge before you can even begin following the stream" piece of drek like there is now. Perhaps an alternate setting on the Priority table, giving them different abilities focused on rigging?

5) MAKE THEM BE ABLE TO HAVE A GHOST-DAMN PAN!!!!!!

Yes please, to all of those, but especially #4 and #5!

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #258 on: <08-21-15/1028:55> »
I would be happy to see CFD get tied to technomancers and then defined in a mission or similar book.  Then we could get an ending that got rid of both CFD and Technomancers.   Or optionally, if players choose the "right color ending" both stick around. I.e. a straw poll to see what the general gaming population wants.

Personally, I liked the zeerust of the wired matrix.  So if the solution to CFD is killing the wireless matrix and thus technomancers I'm all for it.  I'm probably in the minority because the rest of us grognard are still playing 3rd ed.

dragrubis

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« Reply #259 on: <08-21-15/1039:48> »
I would be happy to see CFD get tied to technomancers and then defined in a mission or similar book.  Then we could get an ending that got rid of both CFD and Technomancers.   Or optionally, if players choose the "right color ending" both stick around. I.e. a straw poll to see what the general gaming population wants.

Personally, I liked the zeerust of the wired matrix.  So if the solution to CFD is killing the wireless matrix and thus technomancers I'm all for it.  I'm probably in the minority because the rest of us grognard are still playing 3rd ed.

Play with stuffs you want to see ignore some rules is easier than making new ones...

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #260 on: <08-21-15/1133:41> »
It is less about rules and more about a storyline.

dragrubis

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« Reply #261 on: <08-21-15/1141:55> »
Make mancers a legend... Seemingly like Otakus

Kincaid

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« Reply #262 on: <08-21-15/1159:51> »
The idea of putting out an ebook geared towards a certain archetype and then having that ebook be Gehenna for said archetype brought a smile to my face.
Killing so many sacred cows, I'm banned from India.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #263 on: <08-21-15/1232:16> »
The idea of putting out an ebook geared towards a certain archetype and then having that ebook be Gehenna for said archetype brought a smile to my face.

I like that term.  But seriously, it could play out as a regional decision.   Some places may ban wireless entirely due to CFD which would cripple TMs.  Other places may accept the potential problems of CFD and maintain an open wifi matrix.  Still other places may maintain a restricted wifi setup. 

Personally,  I like the varied approach.  While I would support specifying strategies in some core cities, the strategy choice for most would be set on a municipal level, i.e. the GM can set wifi as he needs for his story.

That would make for a great Prop 404 storyline.  The sourcebook could define how to handle wireless dead zones but also wireless restricted zones as well as their effects on technomancers.    Then introduce Prop 404 to eliminate wireless and have varying stories of success and failure.

Unahim

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« Reply #264 on: <08-22-15/2247:26> »
This technomancer update is doomed from the outset. The only thing that can save TMs by this point is errata that goes along the lines of:

"Replace the entire technomancer chapter in the corebook with the following chapter:"

Data Trails has only further poisoned the well by making necessary TM basic abilities (rigging! skinlink!) echoes, thus basically making it impossible to give them to TMs as a baseline ability. I honestly don't know what changes to suggest, as no house we now build can stand on the quicksand that is SR5 Technomancer core rules.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #265 on: <08-23-15/1931:07> »
There is precedent via other game systems for what amounts to a whole rules rewrite for an archetype, especially one with special abilities. It wouldn't be a bad thing as it could bring them in line with the rest of the game, and they don't have a lot of material in the other books that would become obsolete.

firebug

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« Reply #266 on: <08-24-15/0255:43> »
This technomancer update is doomed from the outset. The only thing that can save TMs by this point is errata that goes along the lines of:

"Replace the entire technomancer chapter in the corebook with the following chapter:"

Data Trails has only further poisoned the well by making necessary TM basic abilities (rigging! skinlink!) echoes, thus basically making it impossible to give them to TMs as a baseline ability. I honestly don't know what changes to suggest, as no house we now build can stand on the quicksand that is SR5 Technomancer core rules.

They put stuff in books already that conflicts or seems to make other crap obsolete (hence the whole...  Two echoes that give a control rig) so I don't think they need any kind of "Oh we would have to rewrite this and that..."  No, just add them in and make the other choices that shouldn't be necessary in the first place now just bad/obsolete choices.  I'm bitter.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #267 on: <08-24-15/0853:05> »
You have all the rights to be bitter. Technomancy has been neglected badly.

BUT: I donīt think the Concept is doomed by design. Quite the contrary: By making the Complex Forms more like the Matrix equivalents of Magic Spells they actually put everything in place to make a TM act and feel different than Hackers.

But THEN, they just didnīt deliver. There are barely two pages of Complex Forms, and they either offer nothing spectacular or have way too high Fading Values or both. And the Echoes didnīt help either.

Only the Sprites turned out pretty strong (if not even a little bit OP). But itīs a freaking headache for most GMs and PCs to have a Petnomancer at the Table. You have to micromanage your Sprites, their OS, Inititiave, Damage tracks, Marks and whatnot. You have to plan a lot in advance, making schedules for registering your sprites and planning your attack. And IMO, that sounds more like the Deckers way. But in 5th Ed, somehow the Deckers are the quick and flexible types, while the TMs have to stick to their limited options.

And if you donīt play a Petnomancer and spend all the legwork/party cuddle time with the fun and engaging act of registering Sprites, you can practically kick it. The current Echoes and Sprite are by no means impressive enough  to compensate the TMs weaknesses: the need for high mental Attributes, Skills, Resonance and Edge, the Dangers of having no Cold Sim and taking every box of Matrix damage straight in the face, the loss of Resonance through augmentations, being hunted and feared by many, not to mention the weird choice of net letting them have a PAN with their living Persona or have a direct connection without the Skinlink Echo.

Are they screwed? Yes, they are. But they are NOT beyond redemption.

What TMs need the most:
More Complex Forms (usefull ones with a reasonable Fading Value. Do not take the existing ones as a model! )
More Echoes (again: usefull ones that are worth the Karma. Not a basic functionality a Decker could buy for 250 bucks at Chargen!)

Do TMS also need Errata/Omission of the Stuff already implemented?
Yeah, they probably do. Then again, there isnīt much to change/ommit, isnīt it?

And regarding the TMs weaknesses mentioned above: Not all of them need to be repaired to make the TMs work. TMs are not Deckers. Instead, try to give them unique Skills that outweight these weaknesses.
Quick ways of messing with with your soroundings. Forcing nearby Devices in Wireless Mode. Misguided Weapon Systems. The "Laughing Man"-Hack. Spoofing a SIN.

And then, when these basics are fixed: Add the flavour. Streams, Paragons, additional Sprites, Dissonance, Fluff, Game Tipps, Sample Characters, the obligatory CFD chapter everyone craves *cough*...



« Last Edit: <08-24-15/1040:59> by Finstersang »

Sphinx

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« Reply #268 on: <08-25-15/1730:54> »
Another vote for reintroducing the missing content from SR4 Unwired ... streams, paragons, networks, widgets. More qualities, complex forms, and echoes. Bring back the missing sprites (code, paladin, sleuth, tank, tutor), and introduce Ally Sprites and Free Sprites. Compare and contrast a Free Sprite vs. an Artificial Intelligence.

Since technomancers are also hackers, some hacker-level content that could be equally useful to deckers would be appropriate and appreciated. Players who run hacker characters -- be they technomancers or deckers -- invariably want their characters to do things in the game that they see hackers doing on TV (e.g., tracking people via their cellphones, eavesdropping on conversations, making untraceable calls, creating false identities, emptying bank accounts). See Leverage, Person of Interest, NCIS. Some of these feats are quite possible in Shadowrun; others aren't and really shouldn't be. This could make good fodder for a couple of sidebars: divide the classic "trideo hacker" feats into things that can be done in the "real" Matrix (and explain how to do them), and things that just aren't possible (and explain why not).

Finstersang

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« Reply #269 on: <08-26-15/0751:18> »
A quick idea on the Side:

Give the TM an equivalent of the Mages/Adepts Centering Technique. You use an additional free Action to Fokus yourself by performing a certain activity to focus yourself
and get a nice little Bonus (Bonus Dice for Resisting Fading would be consequential, but I could also think of other ones).

Whatever Technique you use, the Activities and Movmenets are mapped in meatspace and Matrix as well, no matter if you are in AR or VR.
Acceptable Activities should be something that may seem as normal or maybe just a little weird behaviour on a quick glance,
but look a little too weird when done for a prolonged time in most public places, especially whith eyes closed and a mind that is obviously occupied with something else.

Examples:

- Solving a Rubics Cube (Your avatar making the same turns with whatever its hands are)
- Whistling a set of characteristic melodies (That can also be heard in the Matrix)
- Saying the rosary, completely with beads and all (And in the Matrix, the beads are lines of code you parse through. Nice one for those Westfalia-Church-State-Techno-Inquisitors :P)
- Other religous or semi-religous rites
- Running a Playing Chip through your fingers
- Shuffling a deck of Cards
- Shadowboxing or other Martial Arts Performances
- Tai-Chi, Yoga Practises.
- Running, Threadmilling, Doing Pushups or other Workouts (Think about a TM hacking stuff from the local gym ;)

Fluffy, yet chrunchy. Just the way we like it  8)