[DeathStrobe]

@Hobbes

So you create a weird TM with high agility, and synaptic boosters. You have resonance 3, since, ware ate some of your TM powers. You can compile rating 6 sprites, but you only have 9 dice (6 compile + 3 res) to do so. And registering is going to be really problematic since you'll only have 9 dice vs 12 dice. So you'll have to spend edge. Then there is the fading. Compile one on the fly, it takes 2 hits, you soak 4 fading. You roll 3 resonance + 5 wil, 8 dice, so you'll get about 2 or 3 hits meaning you need to take 1P since the sprite is higher then your resonance. Then you need to spend a simple action to command your sprite to run the diagnostic power, and then you need to wait for the sprite to do its task. That doesn't seem viable at all, to need to rely on diagnostics. The opportunity cost is WAY too high and you still end up being a subpar physical combatant while being a terrible hacker and terrible at resonance actions.

You seem to think that TM's are some how good at what they do already, and giving them abilities to be good outside of what they're already okay at means they'll totally break the balance. When in fact mages have WAY more than TMs, have fewer drawbacks, and are more versatile on top of that.

Or is suddenly, spell casting super balanced because being able to set people on fire at range without needing ammo or a ready weapon action while also being able to turn invisible, fly, and make people think jumping off buildings is a good idea is super balanced? All while tied to one skill.

Resonance should be as powerful as magic and just as feared. Currently, you geek the technomancer last, because he's the lowest threat out of the entire team.

[Triskavanski]

Diagnostics doesn't give you smartlink and it can't allow you to jump-in. Making a complex form to handle these tasks gives them a powerful and necessary niche for TMs.

Yes, +dice is boring, but the entire game revolves around that. Its not even overpowered. You make it sound like TMs are already going to step all over the physical combatants if they're allowed to have as many dice as them without any of the other benefits, like high str to stack armor, high dodge, and high meat world initiative.

Okay, here. How balanced is it that a decker can cut his arm off and get a fully custom cyber arm with 9 agi? Are we to assume that if a TM is able to keep up with a decker they also need to cyber up and take a hit to resonance just to be able to shoot a gun? There aren't enough attribute points and skill points for TMs to make good physical combatants. To give them tools to help even the odds isn't unbalanced, but it does give them more options. Which TMs desperately need.

Yes, the Machine sprite doesn't give you a Smart link. You can wear one in your glasses like everyone else who isn't cybered up, until you're connected enough with the matrix to get an echo for it. Namely the Resonance Program Echo.

But the current core version does suck. Which is why I think it should scale with your Submersion grade. Every grade you have, you get another program. They're small bonuses but they get to add up. Possibly something along the lines of getting datachips or something that could load another program in your biodeck after getting the submersion for a certain period of time before they burn out or something?

Even if you make it a CF for every single skill, you're still not going to at all get anywhere. A Technomancer can start off with at most, Five free CFs. Then they have to spend 4 karma per CF after that.

One of the two biggest issues with a Technomancer is the fact that they have a very high Karma consumption to begin with. If everything a TM does ends up costing more and more karma, Its not going to go very well at all for TMs.


+dice is more than just boring. And the entire game doesn't just revolve around that. It revolves around identities of the characters. We've got the thing that gives us +dice to skills already as technomancers. They're called Machine Sprites. At most, for skills, the most we'd need to develop after that is a single +dice CF, but it still wouldn't be all that great at all.

Not because it would make the TM overpowered or something, but because ultimately, It would just become a karma tax for playing a TM and ultimately doesn't add to their identity of a runner. They just become that guy who can increase his skills a bit. Such hoopla.

Verses a Technomancer who spends all of his nuyen and time working on his gear, upgrading it, enhancing it, so that when he uses his machine sprites on it, it preforms a helluva lot of enhanced functions. Like a Ballistic mask with Vision Enhancements, A smartlink, even a miniature microphone or something. Then he takes a machine sprite and enhances it... Suddenly you're getting a guy who could be in the Crying masks, and possibly feared because how good he is when he's got his mask on.

Basically what I'm saying is No. A Technomancer doesn't need to cut off his arm for a 9 agi gun arm to keep up. And we don't need a lot of uninspired things to try and help a Technomancer dogidly attempt to keep up in physical combat by attempting to pretend we can do what every else can. (CFs to try and add a few extra skill dice after taking the sustaining penalties.)

I've been working on finding somethings a Technomancer could do while in combat, while still maintaining a high Biodeck stats. Using a melee skill + Intuition you can get a +3 to hit on your next attack against a target. Or using con + cha you can pretend to be hurt to the point that you're no longer a threat and the enemies ignore you so you can shoot them in the back. or Perform + Cha. After making a touch attack, you can use Will vs Will to do Cha + Net hits in stun damage to a spririt (This requires a martial art.)

Honestly, IMHO its things like this the technomancer needs more. Things that don't use karma, but brings the mental stats into physical combat. Yes Mages will be able to use it too. Or even faces. Most of the time Mages will elect lighting  bolts to the face however.

Another possibility is expanding the martial arts thing. Gun Kata as presented in Equilibrium isn't something that is about being the most physically able person. But someone could can run through mathematical equations in the middle of combat to maximize kill radius or some other hooye like that. But its something that could be developed. Especially with the +2 to mental limit for mathematical stuff echo, and analytics.

[Marcus]

I like what you're saying Trisk. The CF skill thing is fairly simple which is why I favor it in many ways. But of course there are flaws with it. Sooner or later someone will point out that you can twist it pretty good by doing it on someone with agi enhanced cyberlimb and then begin pushing the die pools pretty hard. But the concept of a runner who improves their gear by customization is a cool concept, do you have some ideas for mechanics on it? I have been trying to think of something that improves wireless bonuses, the idea being that techno's could passively improve wireless bonuses, both helping them be more effective with wireless bonus gear and add some very useful group utility.

Maybe for the gear improvement thing being something like, invest karma into an piece of gear, get bonus die with it equal to submersion rating or something along those lines. Basically creating some sort of generic techno foci/icon concept, make extra effective by letting your bring it with you as an Icon back into the Matrix. It will take some categorization but it could be doable. 

My goal for the class is to make the weakest class stronger not to add something that makes the stronger classes even stronger. This maybe somewhat internally contradictory but such is life.

[Triskavanski]

Well, we do have a few ways of modding up their gear already. Data Trails came out with essentially the way you could do things like turn everything into a fragmentation grenade or even put an agent in your gun.

The Foci thing could work too.. Like a Personalization modification you can add to a device (That doesn't count against the limit of only one modification) to allow a Technomancer to bind to it. What exactly that would do I don't know. Perhaps just increases the Wireless bonus dice a bit or some other effect. And it kinda goes with the idea of the Technomancer being a master of the matrix, so they can use gear better than anyone else.

That could even open up something like being able to bind with objects like cybernetics, and make it so they don't actually hurt his resonance as much as other people would. There is after all the Burn Out's way..

[Hobbes]

@Hobbes

So you create a weird TM with high agility, and synaptic boosters. You have resonance 3, since, ware ate some of your TM powers. You can compile rating 6 sprites, but you only have 9 dice (6 compile + 3 res) to do so. And registering is going to be really problematic since you'll only have 9 dice vs 12 dice. So you'll have to spend edge. Then there is the fading. Compile one on the fly, it takes 2 hits, you soak 4 fading. You roll 3 resonance + 5 wil, 8 dice, so you'll get about 2 or 3 hits meaning you need to take 1P since the sprite is higher then your resonance. Then you need to spend a simple action to command your sprite to run the diagnostic power, and then you need to wait for the sprite to do its task. That doesn't seem viable at all, to need to rely on diagnostics. The opportunity cost is WAY too high and you still end up being a subpar physical combatant while being a terrible hacker and terrible at resonance actions.

You seem to think that TM's are some how good at what they do already, and giving them abilities to be good outside of what they're already okay at means they'll totally break the balance. When in fact mages have WAY more than TMs, have fewer drawbacks, and are more versatile on top of that.

Or is suddenly, spell casting super balanced because being able to set people on fire at range without needing ammo or a ready weapon action while also being able to turn invisible, fly, and make people think jumping off buildings is a good idea is super balanced? All while tied to one skill.

Resonance should be as powerful as magic and just as feared. Currently, you geek the technomancer last, because he's the lowest threat out of the entire team.

Resonance 4.  You could go with just the two levels of Synaptic booster and go with 5 if you really wanted.  Specialize in Machine Sprites.  You've now got a 12 dice pool.  Until you get your Registering dice pool up you're registering level 4s, not 6s.  So it's 12 vs. 8.  And read Diagnostics.  RAW it literally runs forever.     " the bonus lasts until the sprite drops it or does something else."  It's not difficult to manage.  If you really want to see the character I'll throw it out in the character forum when I can. 

And hilariously you can now run an Agent on any device with the Mods from Data Trail and put a pack of Machine Sprites on the device and let the Agent do the hacking and just tag along.  You can only start with a Rating 4 out of Chargen so, you need a run or two to get the Rating 6.

[Marcus]

Essence loss not effecting resonance is too dangerous in my opinion. It only takes one point of essence loss, to go from non-effective physicals to highly effective physicals. I can't see it coming out clean.

[Triskavanski]

Well, cause you wouldn't be losing the essence either. It wouldn't be a full 100% no loss of course, but something like 10%~20% reduction in the essence loss of the cybernetic that you've gone and done the binding process with. But yeah.. it is difficult to manage. We don't want TM's becoming better street sams than sams either.

[Novocrane]

Your natural Resonance maximum is your Essence rounded down. Whenever you lose Essence (after character generation), you lose an equal amount of Resonance, rounded up.

What was wrong with that?

[DeathStrobe]

Resonance 4.  You could go with just the two levels of Synaptic booster and go with 5 if you really wanted.  Specialize in Machine Sprites.  You've now got a 12 dice pool.  Until you get your Registering dice pool up you're registering level 4s, not 6s.  So it's 12 vs. 8.  And read Diagnostics.  RAW it literally runs forever.     " the bonus lasts until the sprite drops it or does something else."  It's not difficult to manage.  If you really want to see the character I'll throw it out in the character forum when I can. 

And hilariously you can now run an Agent on any device with the Mods from Data Trail and put a pack of Machine Sprites on the device and let the Agent do the hacking and just tag along.  You can only start with a Rating 4 out of Chargen so, you need a run or two to get the Rating 6.

Okay, so you're saying a machine sprite, that requires 2 skills at rating 6, requires a nonsignificant amount of downtime to prepare, that can be seen on the Matrix and Data Spiked, and you can never turn off your smartgun ever again, is somehow on par with a complex form that requires 1 complex action and 1 skill, and that this complex form that can only be used on Smartguns is somehow overpowered?

I disagree.

[Malevolence]

Maybe an echo - One with the Machine - that allows you to accept up to 1 essence worth of 'ware with no hit. It could either be taken up to X times (maybe 3) or scale with your submersion grade (again, optionally with a limit). Allowing a TM to eventually take 10 essence worth of cyberware would be unbalancing, so I think that a reasonable limit should be included.


Other ideas I like for improving Technos - either as CFs or echoes or whatever:
- Access devices that are wireless off - this was suggested earlier and I think it certainly makes Technos the feared unknowns that the world thinks they are. It would obviously need some limitation, such as needing to see the device with your actual eyes a la mage targeting restriction.
- Sprite optional powers - Instead of a pilot sprite, maybe one of the optional powers for a Machine Sprite would be Innate Skill (any vehicle skill - including gunnery)
- Changing Resonance Program to a program slot. Either have it increase available slots with Submersion Grade or with Resonance. Programs would have to be pulled from external storage. Maybe even tie it to a mental stat so that it has an upper bound.
- Technos should have the equivalent of baby monitor and wrapper by default. They should also be immune to VR addiction. Since apparently the core rules can't be rewritten, this should be a cheap, Techno only option - maybe a 5 point PQ. Maybe make the wrapper ability tied to a disguise roll.


This is something half formed and far to whimsical, but it might be a cool idea that can be pared down or otherwise ran with to create something cool and balanced. This is simply the extreme that should be avoided, but gives some idea of the flavor. I do not recommend this be used as is unless your game is beyond Pink Mohawk:
- Merge Reality - The Techno can have some of his powers take effect in the meat world. The Resonance bubbles up to our reality, causing Resonance entities in the matrix to take physical form. Sprites become akin to manifested spirits, Resonance powers can do physical damage, and so on (Puppeteer works like Control Actions, Resonance Veil works like Trid Phantasm, and so on). This would need some serious work to balance and would probably have to be an advanced echo, but it would add some limited ability for Technos to be useful in the real world in a way different from Deckers and without having to use guns (though in a way far too similar to mages). Or, conversely (perhaps as another power) you can bring non-Resonance entities into our world so that the Street Sam can pound on it for you. This actually might be better served as something akin to Mana Rifts, where it is something that PCs aren't likely to create on their own.


Lots of other great ideas in this thread as well, but I just wanted to weigh in on these.  Also, I might be a little loopy, so hopefully my entire post isn't just rubbish.

[Triskavanski]

Your natural Resonance maximum is your Essence rounded down. Whenever you lose Essence (after character generation), you lose an equal amount of Resonance, rounded up.

What was wrong with that?

What do you mean?

Resonance 4.  You could go with just the two levels of Synaptic booster and go with 5 if you really wanted.  Specialize in Machine Sprites.  You've now got a 12 dice pool.  Until you get your Registering dice pool up you're registering level 4s, not 6s.  So it's 12 vs. 8.  And read Diagnostics.  RAW it literally runs forever.     " the bonus lasts until the sprite drops it or does something else."  It's not difficult to manage.  If you really want to see the character I'll throw it out in the character forum when I can. 

And hilariously you can now run an Agent on any device with the Mods from Data Trail and put a pack of Machine Sprites on the device and let the Agent do the hacking and just tag along.  You can only start with a Rating 4 out of Chargen so, you need a run or two to get the Rating 6.

Okay, so you're saying a machine sprite, that requires 2 skills at rating 6, requires a nonsignificant amount of downtime to prepare, that can be seen on the Matrix and Data Spiked, and you can never turn off your smartgun ever again, is somehow on par with a complex form that requires 1 complex action and 1 skill, and that this complex form that can only be used on Smartguns is somehow overpowered?

I disagree.

2 skills, that you're typically forced to take. And its only as non-significant as you make six hours to be. Which honestly, isn't that much of time unless your gm is running you through the no-downtime gauntlet of pain. And you can still turn off your gun when you want to. Then you give the command to run diagnostics again. You don't have to wait until you're looking down the sites of a troll with an machine gun to do it.   Also Sprites are only as visible as you make them. Cause you know.. running silent? And wonderful! You spent 3-4 or more complex actions dataspiking the sprite. I've still got the gun. And it still fires bullets.

The problem isn't One or the other. Then problem becomes "And then" As in, you make the sprite, run the diagnostics. Then run this CF taking a minus 2 on all actions, and fade damage and hopefully gaining more than two dice to get the bonus dice to the gun's smart gun system (So you know, you actually benefit from it. Hopefully you don't take any damage along with that!)

And while its limited, CFs can be targeted by other Technomancers. So either way you've got a pretty good chance of eventually losing your buff.

The problem I've got with it the most is it just doesn't really add to the identity of a Technomancer. Its hyperly specialized to work only within a given situation, though a little bit broader than having to single out a specific gun or something, its still way too inflexible.

.

[Triskavanski]

. They should also be immune to VR addiction.

I really don't understand the reason why this particular thing comes up so often, when Technomancers can easily live their entire life never really going VR, and sticking to AR. Though one thing I do beleive should be added to this , is the UR should have the same resistance effects of a technomancer resisting VR.

[Marcus]

Maybe an echo - One with the Machine - that allows you to accept up to 1 essence worth of 'ware with no hit. It could either be taken up to X times (maybe 3) or scale with your submersion grade (again, optionally with a limit). Allowing a TM to eventually take 10 essence worth of cyberware would be unbalancing, so I think that a reasonable limit should be included.

How about a Resonance required 14 or so point Quality "One with the Machine" Allows you to accept 1 essence worth of cyber-ware/bioware with no loss of resonance. You still take the all the other Negatives relating to essence loss ie social limit and healing tests, etc.

This would go a very long way to solving the techno starting viability problem. Making it a quality makes it available at creation, and restricts it from being taken more then once, as well as attaching reasonably high resource cost. It won't make technos super combatants but it will give them reasonable options.

[Malevolence]

@Triskavanski - They could, but how likely is it that they would? I'm pretty sure entering the Resonance Realms and Submerging requires entering VR. I suppose you could have that be the only times they use VR in order to reduce the risk, making the risk then more comparable to a mage using foci, but it basically means that a unique part of your character - the built in hot-sim module all Techno's have - is all but unusable. You might as well build an AR decker - in which case Mages and Adepts make better AR deckers.


Hot-Sim simsense only has a threshold of one, so the risk of addiction is pretty low and a PC would likely edge out of a flubbed roll anyway, making the whole exercise onerous and mostly pointless. You may as well just roll up front 131 times for the next 20 years of your character's career and with your .23% (or less - that's from 15 dice which should be the lower bound of a Techno's Willpower+Logic+Resonance) chance of failure you might run into ONE failure, which you'd just reroll with edge.


In short, I don't think it adds anything to the game other than some needless bookkeeping and dice rolling. Unless the player WANTS to have an addiction to VR...

@Marcus - I like that.

[Miri]

Maybe an echo - One with the Machine - that allows you to accept up to 1 essence worth of 'ware with no hit. It could either be taken up to X times (maybe 3) or scale with your submersion grade (again, optionally with a limit). Allowing a TM to eventually take 10 essence worth of cyberware would be unbalancing, so I think that a reasonable limit should be included.

How about a Resonance required 14 or so point Quality "One with the Machine" Allows you to accept 1 essence worth of cyber-ware/bioware with no loss of resonance. You still take the all the other Negatives relating to essence loss ie social limit and healing tests, etc.

This would go a very long way to solving the techno starting viability problem. Making it a quality makes it available at creation, and restricts it from being taken more then once, as well as attaching reasonably high resource cost. It won't make technos super combatants but it will give them reasonable options.

How do you plan to pay for that cybergear?  Most every build I have seen has Resources E for 6K..