[khevtol]

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What I think Would improve technomancer design space and improve it:
- Dronomancy! 4e established it as an archtype, but having to get an echo to even consider it is ridiculous. Qualities or technomancer powers that allow you to actually legitimately control drones would be awesome. This would also help with realworld impact. ALlowing them to use the AI thing that lets you take over drones and gear would be damned useful.
- Better Tech compatibility: Technomancers are supposed to be a fusion of man and machine. Why not go back to the otaku and either have an echo or similar that let you ignore the essence cost of augmentations (possibly scaling with submersion grade). A technomancer with a cyberarm is both flavourful and makes sense thematiclly. Tech -fits- better with them.
--This might also lead to an adept thing that lets you get technoadept powers to improve augmentations past their normal grade, or give extra powers. A mancer who can push his cybereyes to display infrared in a pinch without having that capability installed, or being able to improve augmentation ratings temporarily.The drawback to being a technoadept vs a street sam would be that you can only have limited augs (keep at least 3 essence?) but you can make those augs work tons better. Being able to use the AI emulate functionality would be good.
- On that note, powers (not echos) that let the technomancer pump gear ratings temporarily or change functionality would just be cool.  A mancer being able to -pump- a camera to get  bit more resolution out of it or being able give a smartgun system a few more capabilies would be awesome and give a bit more utility.
- Let AI use resonance. It just...makes sense.
- It might be interesting to let technomancers connect their minds to hosts or other gear. Basically having a brain that can send tasks to an expert system or compute cluster somewhere and return with an answer. Mechaically it would be a) a power that let you substitute datasearch/programming for a skill of your choice in return for fading. b) an echo that was essentially skillwires, but more easily swappable with a total rating limit =to initiate grade*something.
- Technomancy specific gear or housing. Let them arrange their house to improve resonance there, or have gadgets that shouldn't entirely work but do anyways via resonance. Gives something to spend Nuyen on.
- Bring back paragons and streams. It gives something to differentiate a technomancer from any other technomancer.giv
- Give ways for the technomancer to mitigate damage/risk of death on the matrix without changing the amount of fading. Part of the drawback of the technomancer is that they risk dying for something that other characters don't. The risk should still be there, but giving the technomancer the ability to hide in the resonance for a bit to avoid matrix damage would really help both differentiate them as well as give them more staying power vs deckers.
- Give qualities (not echos) tht let technomancers use commlinks and similar with their resonance skills.
- Being able to affect devices that are turned off, or force wireless connectivity (risking fading).
- Appearing Invisible to gear (like smartgun targeting systems)
- Interpreting the resonance to be able to affect other logical systems. Corporations are basically computers made out of meat and about as regular. The knowlege of data structures and systems that a technomancer innately has has to be useful somewhere.
- Bonded electronics and gear? Gun foci might actually work here.

I would personally also love qualities for allowing self-reprogramming. Like being able to voluntarily mess with your own neural programming to do things. Also ways to create permanent ...things on the matrix.
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I apologize if this is a bit rambly or too long. It is off the top of my head , and I didn't take time to edit for stupid ideas or content.

[Pixie]

I have some ideas for complex forms, but I don't want to say them because I don't want the freelancers to not use them just because I mentioned them.

That's absurd.  Why would anyone not use a good idea?  You'd rather not speak up about what you'd like to see and hope that on the off-chance that one of the freelancers is telepathic, they happen to read your mind?

But a complex form that is  equivalent to analyze device, that doesn't have to deal with object resistance, and can be combined with diagnostics, but maybe be more specific to the device in question. That'd be very thematic.

I think Object Resistance makes sense to keep in an "Analyze Device" for TMs.  But I'd probably halve the effect, since TMs are far more likely to use the ability on technology than they are on relatively simple things.

Or maybe a complex form that can affect meat world skills.

Allowing the TM to start to step on the toes of adepts, street sams, and faces, is not something I'd be against.

I agree that TMs should have more utility in the meat world, but everything has a price.  If you get good at doing things in the physical world, your Matrix skills should be shoddier than someone who devotes all their time and energy to the Matrix.  Thus, I think having anything that replicates or simulates the powers of an adept, street samurai, face, or mage should be an echo rather than a complex form.  This would force players to make hard choices, which is exactly what SR5 is all about.

[DeathStrobe]

Alright, I guess I'll share then.

I want a smartlink complex form. You thread it on to a smartgun and it doesn't just give you all the bonuses of smartlink, it gives you every net hit as a +die to shooting with the smartgun. Basically acting as a super smartlink. It's balanced by fading and by needing to sustain it, but can allow a TM to toss more dice than a Street Sam at shooting tests.

I want an empathy complex form. Same basic premises, but not on a device. Basically the TM emulates or connects to a bunch of facial recognition services through resonance and every net hits gives the TM +die to all social tests. Or possibly make the complex form based off of the skill.

Would probably make more sense to have a skillsoft complex form, that can be used with any skill in the game. Once again balanced by fade and sustaining, but with enough hits and with the smartlink CF, a TM can instantly become a Street Sam.

A linklock complex form.

[Kincaid]

Yikes.  I'm not sure how you'd balance more dice to shoot than a Sam, roughly the same number of dice to chat as a face, and essentially all the skills ever in a single archetype.

[Novocrane]

Yikes.  I'm not sure how you'd balance more dice to shoot than a Sam, roughly the same number of dice to chat as a face, and essentially all the skills ever in a single archetype.

The only thing I can imagine is something like Spotter for AIs, but that doesn't help the TM directly.

[DeathStrobe]

Well, they currently can't do anything very good, so might as well make them a jack of all trades. Anyway, they'd have to pick up a CF for each skill, which there are already a lot of skills. Take sustaining penalties. They'd need to have good physical attributes if they wanted to be as good as a Sammy/Adept, which currently they are not built to emphasize. And just because you have a lot of dice doesn't mean as much if you are running in to limits all the time. They also will be slower, since they don't have access to meat initiative boosters.

They'd still be terrible compared to a specialist but at least they'd be able to cover every role in a pinch.

[Triskavanski]

They can do things okay though.. a lot of the "Technomancer's bad" is the fact that they get stuck after character creation, because of how much karma they need for everything. In the Arms race, everyone else gets up faster and goes forward, while the technomancer is stuck in a Jam.

The second primary issue is the fact that they're ambigious or easily denied some of their abilities by GMs who can't wrap their head around the idea of the magical internet known as the Matrix. Particularly of note is the Machine sprite using Diagnostics. Many GMs feel its cheating to allow a Techno do this for himself (Or provide the bonuses for someone else) because they look at the + number of dice it could give, and how many actions it gives it to, without usually looking at the what was sacrificed to get there. (Especially in light how these same GMs will allow mages do similar things because.. magic.)

Lastly, Along with the karma bottle neck, is just how slow their abilities grow. Like the +1 to matrix attribute echos. The so few complex forms, and such. As well as the general thing were people just don't really touch them, or they can only make 'The one Build' for a technomancer. And there is also the hyperbalancing of the technos as well, were for whatever reason, such as Puppeteer or Editor.

[Pixie]

I disagree that TMs need to have a "super smartlink" CF.  First off, the balance of power shifts dramatically in favor of the TM at that point.  Maybe as an echo (or more likely an advanced echo) though.  Still, a TM can already achieve all the bonuses of a smartlink that a street samurai has access to, save the one die bonus from having an implanted smartlink.  One die isn't worth shifting things so heavily in the opposite direction.


I do think that facial recognition software and empathy software from 4th edition were some of my favorites, and I'd like to see them implemented in SR5 somehow.  Again, I don't think an uncapped +die bonus to all social skills is a good way to go about doing that sort of thing.  Still, I do think that something like this is suitable for a complex form.  Perhaps empathy software from 4th edition could be reimagined in some way?  Like a passive bonus to social limit, but the opportunity to trade in that limit for a dice pool bonus?

Example: a TM has an empathy software echo (or perhaps a paragon bonus), which provides his Submersion Grade in bonus to social limits.  This is fine and dandy and all that, but on this upcoming test, he really needs the dice pool bonus.  So he trades in his passive bonus at a 2:1 ratio for extra dice.  In this scenario, the TM has a Submersion Grade of 2.  So he loses the +2 to social limit, but gets +1 dice pool bonus in its place.  This effect lasts until the technomancer reboots his Living Persona, at which point the bonus goes back to being a passive bonus to social limits.


I think there has been some discussion of re-imagining the move-by-wire system from 4th edition, so I'd like to see what the results are of that discussion before going too far into the skillwire emulation discussion.  However, I do think that this has some merit.  I'd probably (again) make the premise of this an echo so that it's permanent, but limited in what skills can be used (only skills that can be trained via the Matrix, for example) and the total dice pool bonus capped at Submersion Grade.  This would allow a TM to load up a bunch of skills at rating 1, or a few skills at a higher rating.  As a Complex Form, I think it's too universally powerful.


A linklock complex form makes perfect sense to me.  Right now, a decker can linklock a technomancer but the technomancer has no such capability.  This is similar to the functionality of the programs that firebug was talking about needing emulation.  Technomancers need a way to utilize biofeedback damage, linklocking, and a few other important abilities.  Like a technomantic equivalent to the hitchhiker program (not as an echo, since we've seen the math on that and programs as echoes are never balanced).

[Novocrane]

Still, a TM can already achieve all the bonuses of a smartlink that a street samurai has access to

These wireless bonuses include;

+1 (DNI) or +2 (Cyber) bonus to attack with a smartgun system & weapon
reduction of the 'Wind' Environmental Penalty by one rank
Take Aim bonus per action being both +1 limit & +1 die

I don't agree that a CF able to do these things would be an exceptional shift in the balance of power. TMs are able to do this with smartlinked glasses / contacts / goggles / other already, and a CF would need to be sustained.

[DeathStrobe]

Not only would it need to be sustained, but fading would need to be soaked.

Say the fading is level + 1, to get on par functionality of +2 dice, they'd thread at level 2 and need to soak 3 fading. Say they have 6 res + 5 will that's 11 dice, so on average, the TM should be able to hit the fading threshold on average, and take -2 to all other actions for sustaining.

But lets say, we have 6 software and 6 resonance, so average of 4 hits. So we thread at level 4. We need to soak 5 fading, which odds are we won't hit. But we do get +4 dice while shooting, and -2 dice to all other actions and probably take 2 stun. That actually sounds too unfair to me. I think the fading will need to be lowered, considering the sustain cost. -2 to all other actions is pretty damn brutal, but the possibility of getting lucky on an edge roll and getting something like +10 dice on shooting tests would be amazing. And that's kind of the point of edge is to do amazing things.

And, there is also the problem if the TM needs to hack his own gun. He'd have to beat his own int + firewall, which could be very problematic as the better his Matrix defense, the worst this bonus is. I don't like the sound of that, but if the TM doesn't slave his gun to anything, it only has a firewall of 2 and makes it easier for a decker to brick it. Which would add a very interesting risk vs reward.

And just because you can shoot better doesn't mean you'll be a great combatant. TMs still have problems with meat initiative, physical attributes, and because of the attributes; dodging. Also, something like improve ability for adepts is even more broken. So I think its fair.


Compare a complex form that increases social dice while sustained vs a mage casting improve charisma or adept's stacking all their powers to be a face. TMs attributes actually synergize well with being a face but they currently require too damn many skills to be viable at it and their complex forms and echos don't synergize with the face role. 6 hacking skills, 3 resonance skills, and 6 face skills. Any TM is going to have a hard time to be a face and hacker, so giving them tools to either hyper focus that or tools to allow them to branch out more is the answer. I do think they should have uncapped bonus dice on being a face with a complex, just so they can focus on being able to be hackers without needing to dump a ton of karma into social skills.


And I don't think any of these should be echos, because there are too many echos that seem mandatory and I'm sure that's just going to get worse. You can only submerge so many times before the cost is so prohibitive that you'll never be able to feasibly do it again. Complex forms should be what gives TMs flexibility not echos. Echos should reinforce the TM's playstyle as an advance option. That's why I think complex form skills is the way to go.

[Marcus]

There already was a Smartlink CF, and it did just what an implanted smartlink did. Which was and is fine. Combine that with Diagnose in some kind of non-sprite form and you could achieve a decent results. It's not going to shoot better then street sam, who is going to be below the gun adept in terms of pool. But even if you did make a threadable CF that gave significant bonus dice with a firearm, it wouldn't be anything so terrible, first off threading ain't free. You cannot use it to add that much, without taking it on the chin in terms of drain. Second having 15+ dice to pistols does not in anyway make you a first tier combatant in SR5, it take a a lot more then that.

No Techno is gonna have the reaction and agility needed to be a first tier gun fighter, and even if they could get enough bonus dice to begin equaling them in shooting, they still wouldn't have init enhancers, or the body needed to stand up like a first tier combatant. But it could make them effective second tier combatants which is exactly what we want. If you built techno to break this logic they will be terrible hackers, which just shows it could be balanced.

Adding a CF that added to a particular skill could work, it would take a CF slot (Something that I remind you is costed as twice the value of a spell), it would have a drain rating, it's very generic and it would be easy to play test and cost appropriately with fairly minimal effort . Even so it would still not be as powerful as a spell ( Spells which I should point out add to an attribute, which are many times stronger then a skill), regardless it is a decent starting point for a meaningful conversation.

[Pixie]

The problem with requiring a Complex Form to get a boost, only to then have to sustain it, is that you have to get more benefit from it than the sustaining penalty.  Which seems kind of unnecessary.  Some of the benefits to setting these abilities up as echoes are:

1) No sustaining penalty
2) Forcing technomancers to make choices about their "build"
3) There's always a cost to everything

In the last case, it's important to know that Fading and sustaining penalties aren't very substantial costs.  Threading a Complex Form to mimic a smartlink is a great idea, except when you get into the math of it.  First off, you suggested that it gets a flat +1 bonus to dice pool and accuracy per hit.  Assuming the Level is still a limit, that's still a LOT of potential hits.  It's too powerful.  And doing a straight mimic of the functionality of a smartlink is immediately offset by the penalty you get from sustaining the complex form.

If you'll look at my husband's house rules on technomancers, he was talking about adding in the equivalent of enhancements to each submersion grade.  These wouldn't require submersion, but would provide a passive boost for the cost of some karma.  It's a good setup, because it allows for technomancers to make choices about how to build their character, gives them passive benefits similar (in concept) to those that an adept or mage can acquire, and uses an existing mechanic to do all of this.

You're right that echoes are too damn expensive for something as simple as replacing a smartlink.  But if you were to look into adapting the rules for schools of magic into technomancy, you'll find the solution is right there.

[Triskavanski]

CFs and Echos should both give the Technomancer flexibility and reinforce the different play styles. Not just one or the other. The biggest issue with most of the Echo's thus far is that their bonuses are small, and none of them scale with Submersion grade

I don't think that Technomancers should be too totally flexible. That would be more Decker route. but they should be able to grow and develop into their own style.

For smart links, I'd actually blend that into the Resonance Program echo, but only after you get that echo to grow with each increase to your submerssion grade. Might not be the easiest way, but it would help make that echo actually useful rather than being a crazy high tax

[Ayslyn]

I have some ideas for complex forms, but I don't want to say them because I don't want the freelancers to not use them just because I mentioned them.

That's absurd.  Why would anyone not use a good idea?

It's because of potential IP issues.   Some companies are, rightly, a little gun shy over using unsolicited ideas from fans due to the fact that some of those fans occasionally try to lay claim to said ideas and profit from them.   Even if the company didn't use the fan's idea, but had the idea in the works already, they've been taken to court on occasion for IP ownership.    So, to avoid it all together, some companies will nix an idea if a fan publishes it before they can develop a chain of evidence that they thought it up on their own.

[Marcus]

Choice is not an issue, it is necessary to complete the concept to add those choices, that is the essence of character and build creation.
The sustaining issue will have to be addressed, having smartgun cf that is sustained and costs you the two die you gained to a sustaining penalty just wont due. But there should be plenty of easy ways to address the issue.

I think we all agree Everything has to have a cost and you pay for what you get.