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Technomancer feedback for a new book!

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JackVII

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« Reply #60 on: <06-04-15/0802:12> »
I didn't know mages could pick up metamagics without initiation.
I am pretty sure they cannot, unless I missed something in Street Grimoire.

Another option for programs would be to crib the AI cyberprogram rules: Extended Software Test and spend 5 karma per program, although you'd probably have to introduce a program limit to keep it all balanced. It's certainly not great, but possibly a little better than requiring Submersion.

I also do think TMs really need programs or some way to replicate some of the benefits of programs, particularly the ones that aren't just "increase Matrix Attribute/limit for test by X". Just the Browse program, for instance, provides a huge difference between a Decker and a TM when it comes to data searches.
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #61 on: <06-04-15/0812:26> »
Except for people who partiake in Missions play as they don't use any optional rules.
Can't win 'em all. The writers have already stated in this post that they won't (or can't) change core, so Missions players are screwed anyway. But that doesn't mean they can't include Optional Rules for the rest of us who don't play missions...

JackVII
I'd agree with that assessment. At least then Technomancers would be less screwed than currently on the program front. And I wholly agree that the lack of a Browse program is a great example of how versatile Deckers can be right out of the gate while Technomancers lag behind.

Technomancers went from being Matrix gods (no pun intended) in SR4 to the proverbial red headed stepchild of the Matrix in 5th, and while I appreciate the efforts of the writers of this supplement I really don't have high hopes that it'll be enough...

Triskavanski

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« Reply #62 on: <06-04-15/0849:24> »
In addition to that, the ability to turn off those wound modifiers allows you to heal faster. (along with the point of will power it gives while its on.)
Point of contention: wound modifiers do not apply to natural healing tests.


Where is that stated? The only time wound mods don't apply has been damage resistance tests that I've seen.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Pixie

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« Reply #63 on: <06-04-15/1032:08> »
I didn't know mages could pick up metamagics without initiation.
I am pretty sure they cannot, unless I missed something in Street Grimoire.

If you pick up a school for initiation, such as Psychometry, you can pick up all the metamagics, rituals, and enchantments that are part of that school without having to re-initiate.  This is what I'm referring to, which would be a great option to see for technomancers as well.  Putting the advanced echoes and such into schools or blocks, then allowing the technomancer to pick up all the echoes, advanced echoes, etc. from that block.  I'm pretty sure Namikaze was talking about something very similar in his technomancer house rules thread.

JackVII

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« Reply #64 on: <06-04-15/1045:11> »
If you pick up a school for initiation, such as Psychometry, you can pick up all the metamagics, rituals, and enchantments that are part of that school without having to re-initiate.  This is what I'm referring to, which would be a great option to see for technomancers as well.

Unless the Magical Arts sidebar has errata, that doesn't appear to be true for metamagic.
Quote from: SG, p.139
METAMAGICS
These metamagics are only available to those who initiate into
this school of magic. If more than one metamagic is available, the
magician must perform the initiation process, including the Karma
and time cost, to learn each one.

Also, the last sentence of the last paragraph of the Introduction section on the same page.
Quote from: SG, p.139
For each new metamagical technique, however, the magician will need to initiate to the next grade to gain that new metamagic.
Amusingly, the second to last sentence completely disagrees with the sidebar about rituals and enchantments.
« Last Edit: <06-04-15/1057:36> by JackVII »
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Pixie

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« Reply #65 on: <06-04-15/1135:08> »
All I can say, JackVII is that you should look for posts by Giabraltar.  He clarified these points.

And I'd rather not derail the thread any further.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #66 on: <06-04-15/1157:31> »
In addition to that, the ability to turn off those wound modifiers allows you to heal faster. (along with the point of will power it gives while its on.)
Point of contention: wound modifiers do not apply to natural healing tests.


Where is that stated? The only time wound mods don't apply has been damage resistance tests that I've seen.
Healing, page 205 under both First Aid and Medicine. Wound modifiers are explicitly stated to apply to tests made when actively (i.e. using the first aid or medicine skills) healing, but not when being healed by other (uninjured) personnel or when healing naturally.

Quote
First Aid can only be used if you have a medkit (even if you do not currently have supplies for it), and it may only be applied within 1 hour of when the damage was taken. Roll a First Aid + Logic [Mental] (2) Test, applying appropriate modifiers from the Healing Modifiers table. (Characters using First Aid on themselves or others must also apply their wound modifiers to the test.)

Quote
The character makes a Medicine + Logic [Mental] Test; apply appropriate modifiers, including wound modifiers if a character is applying the Medicine skill to her own wounds.

Not to take this too off topic, but I thought attribute-only tests were excempt from wound modifiers? Things like resisting certain social tests (willpower+charisma), resisting spells (willpower+logic), etc.

JackVII

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« Reply #67 on: <06-04-15/1202:54> »
I found Giabraltar's post about it. Here's the link: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17274.msg305529#msg305529 and a few pertinent quotes:
Quote
For most schools, this basically means you pick a specific metamagic from that school (the one that's listed as a prerequisite) as your metamagic for that Initiation. Characters can further initiate to gain additional metamagics within that school if they have picked up the prerequisite metamagic.
Quote
Arts such as Advanced Alchemy, Advanced Ritual Spellcasting, and Advanced Spellcasting list several metamagics with no prerequisite requirements. This means that when they first initiate they can choose either metamagics.
Reading it, it's pretty clear (to me) that you have to initiate for each metamagic you pick up. While this is only tangentially related to the topic, the suggestion to have TMs mimic a mechanic that doesn't exist is, I feel, pertinent.

With that said, I do agree that TMs should be able to improve their capability to do interesting things in the Matrix outside of Submersion. So we can probably leave it at that without drawing a comparison to something that may not exist.
« Last Edit: <06-04-15/1206:28> by JackVII »
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Finstersang

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« Reply #68 on: <06-05-15/0936:55> »
Two big Wishes:

1. More Echoes! Look at the Echoes from 4th Editions "Unwired"-Rulebook. Stuff like Multiprocessing,  Mesh Reality, Biowires, Acceleration...
This Stuff was neat, and a real Gamechanger for TMs in 4th Edition.

2. Better Complex Forms! The current ones are really underwhelming: The Drain Values are too high and most of the Effects arenīt that special. Take the hint from the numerous complaints and revise the existing Drain Values (more a thing for an Errata, but still...) and, more important, make the new Complex Forms feel really special. Donīt compare the effects of Threading just to equivalent Matrix Actions, but also to magic spells: In a high-tech environment, a TM should feel almost like a Mage. Examples/Suggestions:

- A CF that hampers Wireless Weaponry like Smartguns, Drones or Guided Missiles against a target, adding Defensive dice (or scatter dice).
- A CF that makes the TM or his target invisible to wireless Cameras, Cybereyes etc, almost like an Invisibility Spell. Think about the "Laughing Man" from the anime "Ghost in the Shell".
- A CF that forces visible/known devices into Wireless, making the olī "shut everything off"-Tactic  less reliable against Technomancers.

Sounds too strong? Think about it that way: while Hackers can get Augmentations without really hampering their Matrix abilities (or even be  an actual Adept or Mage), TMs have very few options in meatspace. Giving them "Spell-like" CFs with higher meatspace-usability as a compensation would be just fair. 
« Last Edit: <06-05-15/1149:06> by Finstersang »

Finstersang

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« Reply #69 on: <06-05-15/0947:45> »
Also: Paragons!

Paragons, Paragons, Paragons!

Paragons.

firebug

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« Reply #70 on: <06-05-15/1056:49> »
Actually, right now, all those programs are already opened up to a technomancer thought he Resonance Program Echo.

The problem is just how late you get it, and how much it costs to get them. A Decker can pick up all those programs easily, switch through and load them, allowing him to be highly flexible early on. This flexibility continues through the game as they get more slots.

The problem with Technomancer's ability is that it costs one submersion per program. So thats 13+ karma per thing you want to add, and its very small effects, that do eventually add up, but that eventually starts costing an already karma starved character even more karma.

That's a great point, Trisk.  I'd like to see the option to purchase echoes without having to submerge, similar to how mages can purchase metamagics without requiring initiation.  There are limits to this, naturally.

It's not that I want all cyberprograms to be available to technomancers, exactly.  What bothers me is that there's a lot of cyberprograms that give access to otherwise basic functions that TMs cannot do because of that, without using up a submersion just for one of them, when it's clear that the programs were designed to be cheap and easily accessible, seeing as every decker I have seen begins play with all of them.
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DeathStrobe

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« Reply #71 on: <06-05-15/1125:11> »
I have some ideas for complex forms, but I don't want to say them because I don't want the freelancers to not use them just because I mentioned them.

But a complex form that is  equivalent to analyze device, that doesn't have to deal with object resistance, and can be combined with diagnostics, but maybe be more specific to the device in question. That'd be very thematic.

Or maybe a complex form that can affect meat world skills.

Allowing the TM to start to step on the toes of adepts, street sams, and faces, is not something I'd be against.

Finstersang

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« Reply #72 on: <06-05-15/1156:24> »
Some mixed issues:

1. According to the Core Rules, TMs donīt get the +2 Bonus from Hot Sim on Resonance Abilites. Why not? TM Hot Sim is described as a "meditative State", so shouldnīt it also boost Resonance?

2. The Skinlink Echo is all nice īn fair, but there should be another way of getting a direct connection. Let TM "channel" their Powers through a Trode Net + Data Cable (or even a Datajack if they want to lose Essence), without needing any Submersions and additonal Karma.

3. The new (and absolutely terrific!) Deep Dive rules state that TMs can use their Powers during a Deep Drive. Please offer some examples for this. How do Sprites and CFs look and feel in the Foundation?
« Last Edit: <06-05-15/1206:32> by Finstersang »

Marcus

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« Reply #73 on: <06-05-15/1208:31> »
First off it makes no difference if this becomes mission legal or not, the point is to make the techno archetype playable, if doing so precludes it being in missions then such is life. But Bull is very reasonable if what is released works and doesn't break the game I'm sure he would include it.

On the metamagic outside initiation, I don't recall anything about it, and I would like to see a Karma cost of just a metamagic if that is the case.  That said if the devs want to make Echos not linked to Submersion, it might be a workable solution depending on the cost, though it could also be game breaking.
 
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khevtol

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« Reply #74 on: <06-05-15/1636:37> »
Ok. So what we need here first is a list of the current problems with technomancers. Here is what I came up with.

1. It is an "all in" class: Compared to other "archetypes" technomancers have the least capability to do other roles, as well as the least variation within their ranks.  Here is what I see:

Technomancer:
Types: Sprites for damage, Diagnostics/Machine sprite to help others. You definitely aren't a decker.
Seconadry roles:  gun bunny(machine sprites). You can't get augmentations like a decker without hurting your technomancy skills. You can't swap out programs like deckers, get a direct connection,can't slave devices, can't use programs(one per echo...)  Rigging requires an echo, Barely any roles have...any synergy. You are basically a technomancer and nothing else.

Mage/Awakened:
Types: Various traditions(shaman vs hemeretic), Glass Cannon, Manipulation, Illusion, Shapeshifting, Conjuring, Disabling, Augmented(platelet factories/etc)
Secondary Roles Possible: Shadow(via spells like invisiblity), Adept(Mystic Adept), Shaman(Summon a spirit or two), Face(Shaman already specializes in charisma, and spells like mindprobe ad similar totally help),Medic (heal spell) ....etc etc.

2. It is more vulnerable than: Technomancers seem intended to be the mages of the matrix. However tht analogy doesn't hold as well in practice. The first is because it has lot less interaction with the real world. Yes the matrix is everywhere, but you can shut it off. Hell, runners and companies actively do shut it off on a regulr basis to not be vulnerable to decking. Runners don't normally run around in mana-dead zones to prevent being magic'd at. So a technomancers can't do much besides technomancy, and is easily shut down as well.

3. Skills:Since resonance skills don't actually give you any proficiency in computer things (without an echo), a technomancer has to basically spend twice the points. Half on doing technomancy things, and half on poorly replicating a deckers computer skills. A technomancer with a commlink should not be terribad without an echo or doubling my karma expenditure.

4. Mages have more impact: Mage spells both have more variety, and more impact to meatspace. Sprits can be summoned to screw things up in meatspace. Physical barrier protects you..etc. Mages have the benefit of having the ability to work both on the astral and meatspace with their abilities. Deckers have the ability to take augmentations to do the same. Technomancers are both harmed by augmentations, and have abilities that are only really good on the matrix. It is only slightly better than having a subtype of mage who is only good at astral combat.

5. Technomancers don't...have much identity: When you think technomancer, the first thought people  have is neo from the matrix. However in game, technomancers don't have identity. Adepts have social adepts, kung fu masters, gun bunnies...etc. Mages have Summoning, various spells, traditions, things like blood magic.
Technomancers basically get "like a decker, but without the gear and a few more tricks in the matrix. Oh and the mechanics are basically magic". They don't have anything to call their own.