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[Resource][5th Edition] Advanced Technomancer Rules

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #15 on: <10-20-14/1927:53> »
The downside of using it like Adept Ways is that you'd heavily limit what they get. If you allow for them to get into multiple Technomancer Arts, they can learn the Enhancements of multiple types instead, allowing them to specialize or spread themselves wide. Remember how I said earlier that it'd make more sense if they can pay karma to learn a program with the right 'Metamagic'? That could be Enhancements I guess?_?
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Namikaze

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« Reply #16 on: <10-21-14/0123:07> »
The downside of using it like Adept Ways is that you'd heavily limit what they get. If you allow for them to get into multiple Technomancer Arts, they can learn the Enhancements of multiple types instead, allowing them to specialize or spread themselves wide.

Absolutely!  My only concern is that making it like an Art with only a handful of options would effectively mean that eventually a technomancer will take them all anyway.  I'd really like to get to at least 8 options.  Ambitious, I think.

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17200.0
Remember how I said earlier that it'd make more sense if they can pay karma to learn a program with the right 'Metamagic'? That could be Enhancements I guess?_?
[/quote]

Yeah, that would be the right idea.  I was thinking of the following for each Domain:

A new Complex Form (bought with Karma, like an Enhancement for mages)
A new Echo
A new Advanced Echo

But if we only had 5 or 6 Domains, I'd probably add a passive bonus to each Domain, and make them exclusive (like Adept Ways).  I'd REALLY rather see them more akin to Arts though.
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firebug

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« Reply #17 on: <10-21-14/0745:11> »
I don't think the enhancement necessarily has to be a CF.  Make some of them the passives.  I'd also suggest that you make the Simrig one available to all regardless of Domain, but just require that they have one first. 
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8-bit

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« Reply #18 on: <10-21-14/1147:52> »
I would tend to agree that the specialized things don't necessarily need to be Complex Forms. I think we should try and brainstorm a few Complex Forms, just because I find the current list a little lacking, but maybe each domain could give some bonus when threading certain complex forms that are relevant to the domain's mindset? Like Cracking would get a bonus to Resonance Spike? I realize this is a little drab, so anything anyone has to spice it up would be good. I'll try to think of some new domain ideas, but I think we covered almost everything.

Well, actually, here's are some domain ideas that may or may not be good. I have no idea what to name them, but here are the descriptions.

Personality Mods - Face enhancing equivalent of a Mage build; uses Technology to alter their appearance and enhance/change their personality
Information Gatherer - Specializes in using both physical, and Matrix techniques to gather information into one spot; Edit File etc.

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« Reply #19 on: <10-21-14/1229:46> »
That's fair - we shouldn't begin pigeon-holing right off the bat.  :)  You know, this is SO much easier when there is already material to draw from (Unwired:P

8-bit, I like those domains.  I'd want to tweak Information Gathering to cover Information Manipulation as well, especially if we're talking about having this Domain be exceptional at Edit File and similar actions.  Actually, going through the list that's basically what Sigint is all about.  So here's the current list as I see it (I still want more ideas, and I'll add to it as I come up with ideas!):

  • Hacking - the cat burglar of the Matrix, sneaking in and out without anyone being the wiser
  • Cracking - kicking down firewalls, blasting IC and spiders, and reminding the world that their information is far from safe
  • Remote Operations - this domain focuses on the signals that travel between the physical world and the Matrix
  • Sigint - this domain focuses on the acquisition and denial of intelligence and misinformation
  • Compiling - this domain focuses on the Resonance, and the compiling and registering of Sprites
  • Body Mods - this domain uses the technology and evolution of technomancers to give themselves abilities and powers never seen before
  • Personality Mods - this domain uses the technology and evolution of technomancers to make themselves more likable, feared, and respected
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Sternenwind

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« Reply #20 on: <10-21-14/1550:20> »
You may wanna have another look on “Guild” and “Blur”

“Guild” aka Technomancer Host
There aren’t any rules about Host actions, so there should be any problem with the creation of high rating Hosts. But is there any fading for creating a “Guild”? Where is the Host located*? Can another Technomancer/Sprite find and enter this Host? Can another Decker/AI/Agent find and enter this Host?

“Blur” aka Masking
First, I don’t like that fact that pretty much everything in SR5 is an Opposing Test. But they implemented Limits in SR5. With that, and without edge, it can become practical impossible to see through this ruse.

The rest, as far as I can gather, look solid.

*ressonance realm, space, neo-tokyo?

8-bit

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« Reply #21 on: <10-21-14/1635:33> »
Here's another domain idea to consider. It doesn't exactly have a lot of rules or actions currently available for it, but I thought it fit pretty well, especially if we made domains like Magician Arts.

Creation/Bolstering - Focuses on strengthening defenses, such as firewalls and encryptions, sprites and personas; also focuses on creating virtual data, such as spoofed lifestyles or forged IDs

I'm still not sure on that last part, since spoofing and forgery seem like they might be more of a Sigint domain type of thing. This is like the Technomancy version of the Shielding Art; I'm sure there are Technomancers out there who have a very defensive/protective mindset, and I think this would fit fairly well. I might be reaching though, so feel free to tell me if you don't like it.

Any ideas on what kinds of Complex Forms/New Matrix Actions you were thinking about? As long as you don't mind everyone giving feedback on first drafts that is. I may have gotten a little crazy with your Technomancer rules. I hope you don't mind.
« Last Edit: <10-21-14/1711:02> by 8-bit »

Shaidar

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« Reply #22 on: <10-21-14/1936:53> »
A thought, as to the naming of your "Arts"-like groups.

Since TMs became known to the world at-large what legitimate positions have they started to carve out for themselves, aside from those they work alongside their Decker counterparts?  Those job titles might serve as good names for your groupings as well as serving as a guide for which CFs and Echoes to group together.

Namikaze

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« Reply #23 on: <10-21-14/2201:00> »
Creation/Bolstering - Focuses on strengthening defenses, such as firewalls and encryptions, sprites and personas; also focuses on creating virtual data, such as spoofed lifestyles or forged IDs

Oh this I like - great idea!  I hadn't considered the technomancer as a "buffer" role much, but this would make the archetype very intriguing, I think.  8-bit should be renamed to "Butter" cause he's on a roll!  :P

Since TMs became known to the world at-large what legitimate positions have they started to carve out for themselves, aside from those they work alongside their Decker counterparts?  Those job titles might serve as good names for your groupings as well as serving as a guide for which CFs and Echoes to group together.

I really like this idea too - that was sort of where I came from with Sigint, since that's the short-hand version of Signals Intelligence from the Army.  I think this is a great idea though, and I bet we can find some good naming ideas.

“Guild” aka Technomancer Host
There aren’t any rules about Host actions, so there should be any problem with the creation of high rating Hosts. But is there any fading for creating a “Guild”? Where is the Host located*? Can another Technomancer/Sprite find and enter this Host? Can another Decker/AI/Agent find and enter this Host?

A host isn't located anywhere.  Think of a guild as a magical society, it's a group of technomancers that come together and create a silently-running host on the public grid.  That's all that is important to know.  Anyone can find the host using the same rules for finding silently-running hosts that already exist.  The fact that it's on the public grid actually helps protect them a bit, since attempts to find them will suffer a penalty.  The host can be entered by anyone who dares try - but I would anticipate that a guild host is swarming with technomancers and/or sprites, so good luck surviving if you break in.

As far as fading goes, that can be added in - it's a long test though, and you pay karma afterward, so I'm not too worried about what the Fading value would be.  Let's just go with the Threshold of the test, divided by the number of participants.

“Blur” aka Masking
First, I don’t like that fact that pretty much everything in SR5 is an Opposing Test.

Can't help you there.

But they implemented Limits in SR5. With that, and without edge, it can become practical impossible to see through this ruse.

First, I don't see how this is likely to be an issue.  If a technomancer has a very high submersion grade, they should be harder to detect.  And why is edge not a factor in this test?
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8-bit

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« Reply #24 on: <10-21-14/2210:17> »
I also don't see how Blur is an issue. It's pretty much the same with Masking, if you have a high enough initiation/submersion grade, then you are likely to remain hidden. It's as simple as that.

As for the Bolstering Domain, I was thinking that, since we kind of want them to be like Magician's Arts where you can get into multiple, a Technomancer is not completely sidelined into just Bolstering. They can pick up a submersion or two into it to get some better defenses, or if they want to go really far into it, then they can become buffers, like you've said.

Here's a question for you Namikaze. What do you think about the Fading on the current Complex Forms? I know a lot of people, including myself, think they are pretty high; especially compared to the Drain values on spells. Just something to consider when you start making your own Complex Forms; whether you'll adjust them to their current drain, or adjust the current drain to them.

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« Reply #25 on: <10-21-14/2228:51> »
Oh I'm not a fan of the current Fading.  Given that there aren't many Complex Forms and a technomancer doesn't use them all that much, I can see why they're so high.  But with these modified rules, and the potential addition of several Complex Forms, I think it would make sense to do one of two things.  Either we retcon the Fading codes, or we add an option for a technomancer equivalent to reagents.  Personally, I prefer the second option - I feel like Complex Forms are rare and powerful things, but they shouldn't be crippling to a technomancer.

Look at it like this: a decker can do all the same Matrix Actions that a technomancer can do.  They can use agents, which are similar (and yet completely different from) sprites.  The thing that technomancers really have that is unique is the ability to use Complex Forms.  Therefore, it makes sense to make Complex Forms powerful tools that really make the technomancer unique.  So I am supportive of making Complex Forms very powerful, and with a high cost.  However, the current Fading codes are a bit extreme in some cases, making the Fading enough of a penalty that they become a deterrent to using Complex Forms.  I'm hardly suggesting we make Complex Forms able to be used every turn without cost, which is where I think a technomancer "reagent" would come in handy.  A technomancer could use the "reagents" to set the limit, allowing them to use their Complex Forms at a lower Level.

What I would probably do with the Complex Form creation is to go with the current system of Fading values, but I might throw in a little something to act as a "reagent."  I'm going to have to tweak a lot of stuff to make it balanced, but that's where the community here can really help - once I've got something written down, let's test things, run simulations and algorithms, and then see if we can get this whole thing well balanced.

Oh, and I had a VERY rough idea for a Domain: Math and Probability.  Using advanced Resonance Algorithms (a new term I just made up wholecloth that implies mysticism) the Technomancer can predict the outcomes of certain events that are already in motion.  The power that I'm thinking of is also EXTREMELY similar to Info Sortilege, but focuses on predicting outcomes rather than directing or giving the character a trove of information.

Also: updated the Defragmentation echo to reflect the correct verbiage for how the Living Persona takes damage.  Since there is no such thing as "Living Persona damage" I've changed the echo to remove Stun damage caused via the Matrix.  It can't be used for healing Fading damage, or damage caused by something not of the Matrix though.  So a Stunbolt can't be healed, but a Data Spike can.
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« Reply #26 on: <10-21-14/2310:19> »
I think you're right. I like the idea of "reagents" for Technomancers. Maybe call it "source code" or "packets" (to completely mix and confuse modern terms for anyone who is technical)? Or even, "packets of source code" to follow "drams of reagents"? We could always go back to Bits and Bytes, but that would probably just confuse even non-technical people.

I like that idea for a Domain. Let me just see if we're on the same page here.

Would this apply only to the Matrix, or the the Physical World as well? Basically, by peeking into the Resonance, a Technomancer can follow impossible threads of thought in order to deduce how or what events may occur in the near future? Is it like Divination for mages? Instead of imprints of emotions and such on the astral plane, what about the imprint of motives and logic in the Matrix and the Resonance Realms? Or, is it just that by figuring out how to work more closely with the Resonance Realms, you can look through and exploit it's vast archives of data to make predictions? Sort of making the Resonance Realms a huge database (since no data is ever forgotten in the Resonance Realms), and your "Resonance Algorithms" into functions that sift through the data and make predictions?

I might be way off base there, but if we are thinking similarly, I like the idea.
« Last Edit: <10-21-14/2312:16> by 8-bit »

Namikaze

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« Reply #27 on: <10-22-14/0049:46> »
It would definitely be like Divination for mages - functionally very similar.  You could use it for both physical events and Matrix events, sort of like how Divination isn't limited to just the astral.  And your description of it is exactly what I was thinking.  The technomancer uses their connection to the Deep Resonance to pull probabilities out of thin air, and the most likely probability of events is the one that the technomancer gets information about.  And of course, it's got to be cryptic as hell.
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Sternenwind

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« Reply #28 on: <10-22-14/0143:01> »
“Guild”
I was just wondering. You implied that it could be possible for outsiders to enter the Host. If it can be done, it would be nice to mention how.


“Blur”
Masking is Magic + iniate grade vs Assensing Test. Even silent running is an opposing test.

Blur has a soft limit; Karma.
Matrix Perception has a hard limit; Attributes/Device Rating.

It is easier to blur as to see through it. And is possible to reach a level of submersion were you cannot see through it at all.

Namikaze

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« Reply #29 on: <10-22-14/0147:02> »
“Guild”
I was just wondering. You implied that it could be possible for outsiders to enter the Host. If it can be done, it would be nice to mention how.

By following the normal rules for hosts?  Hacker does matrix perception test to find the host, but has to know something about it's existence first.  Then hacker attempts to enter the host by Brute Force or Hack on the Fly methods.  Then hacker uses the Enter Host matrix action.

It is easier to blur as to see through it. And is possible to reach a level of submersion were you cannot see through it at all.

Yes, but one could say the same for the Masking metamagic.
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