[Fizzygoo]

Awesome, danka

[Kot]

Early in the Fourth World, the dragons realized that the immortal elves were too independent to make trustworthy guardians, and so the dragons explored other routes, leading to drakes.  At the same time the immortal elves and dragons both knew that the horrors would return, hence the creation of Kaers.

The thing is, most of the Immortal Elves are ones born in the Age of Legends (Fourth World, Earthdawn era), witch Alachia and Ehran being a possible (but not certain) exception. Harlequinn is one of those born before the 4th World Scourge (as he hails from the City of Spires and seems to have been born there).

[Longshot23]

Early in the Fourth World, the dragons realized that the immortal elves were too independent to make trustworthy guardians, and so the dragons explored other routes, leading to drakes.  At the same time the immortal elves and dragons both knew that the horrors would return, hence the creation of Kaers.

The thing is, most of the Immortal Elves are ones born in the Age of Legends (Fourth World, Earthdawn era), witch Alachia and Ehran being a possible (but not certain) exception. Harlequinn is one of those born before the 4th World Scourge (as he hails from the City of Spires and seems to have been born there).

Alachia (Sheila Blatavska/Sosan Naerain) and Ehran (guess!) are DEFINITELY both from the Age of Legends, as are Aina and Harlequin..  Frosty isn't, Lady Brane Deigh (Lady of the Court) Lugh Surehand, and Sean Laverty possibly aren't  Complete details in the Ancient History files.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Looking over the Ancient Files site, it sounds more like all of the current cast of Immortal Elves are from the Fourth Age. At least nothing seems to imply that they were doing anything in the two ages prior.

Then again, I feel like we've reached the depth of backplot where you can pretty much go in any direction you want as a GM without harming the feel of the game so what's "true" is pretty much immaterial. Dragons might be the only ones with memories of an Age prior to the Fourth or they may not. However, the idea that they created Immortal Elves and that the immortality breeds true (at least with two Immortal parents) means that spontaneous IE's are probably not going to happen.

Of course with Spirit Pacts or Third Age equivalent of Leonization, anyone can be Immortal, not just Elves. I think I'll throw some immortal [edit]non-Mage non-elves in my next campaign as foils to the Vast Right Wing Immortal Elf Conspiracy.  

[Kot]

Alachia is rumored to be not another queen taking the name, but the one and only First Queen of the Elves. I didn't know she's Blavatska, since hers were one of the most anti-theran(atlantian) kingdoms of Barsaive. Well, only cows don't change their worldwiev.

As for the Spirit Pact immortality, it's a good story fuel. Especially if one of the player wants it, gets it, and then has to deal with the consequences.

[Longshot23]

It comes together a little more . . . Alachia is Sheila Blataska is the poster Hecate is Prince Sosan Naerain of Tir Tairngire (recorded as the only person to have publicly chewed out High Prince Lugh Surehand and gotten away with it; by report he stood there and took it) . . . apparently she's also someone high up (as in Seelie Court) in Tir na nOg as well.

She seems to multitask about as well as Lofwyr is supposed to 

As for Spirit Pact immortality . . . wow.  I never thought of that.  Is it actually possible?

[Kot]

Look it up in Street Magic, page 108, Formula Page. The mage gets Immunity to Age, by becoming a living Spirit Formula (oh, those Astral tatoos are seriously weird, man).

[Nomad Zophiel]

Of course Immunity to Age won't keep you alive forever. Statistically you're going to get sick, get in an accident or something eventually. Still, I can see it working for a few people.  I really like the idea of this NPC. some Johnson who's just a human, not magically active (for real, not just good at masking), who's not some great powerful political figure but has been around basically forever. When your peers are double digit Initiates and Dragons, it pays to be low key and not attract attention.

Edit: Oh, and note that while you have to be Awakened to form a Spirit Pact at creation, it is possible to summon and negotiate with Free Spirits as a mundane. Its just not easy to get a hold of their formula. I'm currently kicking around a concept for a mundane PC to see how magically useful he can be without a Magic stat. Did Astral camera film make it into 4e?

[Kot]

There's also the other part - Life Pact, that would let the mage heal himself using the spirits power. I'd go for it, as it could be also (logically) used to get rid of disease, as well as wounds. It costs Karma though (1 Karma for healing 2 damage), so it would be a pain to use.


As for the camera, and manatech stuf, it did. It's in Street Magic or Arsenal, i don't remember which one.

[The Laughing Man]

So the horrors created the dragons?

 Woah.

Apparently lots I need to read up on. I've even considered running a horror slaying campaign eventually. What books talk about the creation of the dragons and the 2nd world, or is that Earthdawn stuff?

[Kot]

According to the dragon legend from Dragons, yes (ED book). And you can easily assume it was Verjigorm, who hunts and corrupts them, as he fits the description of the Dark One, as the most badass Horror ever (he hunts Great Dragons, damnit, and they fear him).
And as a side note, look how similar that story is to the origins of Imortal Elves? I feel a Mage: The Awakening quote comming.

[Bryan121]

Wow you guys are chock full of info and I'm digging it, especially the info on the previous ages.  Very interesting.

Something I got to thinking about while reading up on Sperethiel, the Ancient Elven Language in Shadowrun; I wondered if some modern-day Elves had instead adopted the Elven languages invented by Tolkien, when a thought occurred to me:  The story of the Lord of the Rings was presented as an ancient, rediscovered legend of the world before magic faded away...

This I think is a fun conspiracy to run with.  I am so going to do it for a game.

Thank you all for the great ideas and info.

[Fizzygoo]

That's the great thing about playing in the Shadowrun Universe...everything is available to the GM and I mean EVERYTHING!

Was Stephen King actually an early arrival shedim with a penchant for the written word who never had to sleep and could write 24/7 365...sure...or he was just a prolific, human, writer.

Lovecraft gained insight of the horrors...sure...or he was just a writer in the early 20th century?

Dr. John Dee actually summoned spirits and recorded the alphabet of spirits during a mana spike in the 16th century...sure...or he was just a very interesting, but mundane, member of Queen Elizabeth's court?

Was El Dorado actually an materialized Alchera that returned to the astral before the Spanish could find it...sure...or it was just a myth.

12th and 13th century Jews in Spain actually formulated a path of initiation via the Kabbalah and the Tree of Life diagram (one of my favorite characters I played was a Jewish Troll magician who used Kabbalah and I assigned the different metamagic techniques to the Tree of Life who could only get the techniques by following a path from one to the other, couldn't learn a technique if he didn't get the others lower on the tree first)...sure...or where they just eccentric students of the Torah?

Does the Book of Enoch (1 Enoch) actually describe an Astral journey to the metaplanes, near the lowest point of the 5th age's cycle at ~300 BC...sure...or is it just one writer's attempt to make sense of Sons of God/Daughters of Men section in Genesis?

I could go on, but Tolkien learning bits and pieces and putting it together into a largely fictional (but with hints of the "truth") story that included the a primer on the elven language, or an elven language...sure...or he was just a really thorough and meticulous writer that happened to survive one of the deadliest battles of WWI.

[BlackMyron]

A few notes:

 -  Tolkien constructed the mythology behind the LOTR out of a desire to create one for a myth-cycle for the British Isles on par with the better-known ones in other ancient cultures.  Also, the whole concept behind "Numenor" was a take on the Atlantis legend.  An unpublished, unfinished story called "The Lost Road" was going to be about Numenor/Atlantis, as told from a type of psychic time-travel with a reoccurence of a friendship throughout history dating back to Numenor.  In the SR universe, maybe his interest - plus being a British professor with a strong background in linguistics - gave him access to bits and pieces of information that he assembled into a fictional framework.  (It would be more interesting if he died early or suspiciously a la Ambrose Bierce to imply the "Immortals" have something to do with suppressing him, but alas he died peacefully at a ripe old age).
 
 -  There seems to be the implication that dragons possibly - possibly, mind you - aren't originally from here.  Certainly there's a strong implication that Mars was inhabited and effectively rendered lifeless by their equivalent of a Scourge.  One of my favorite conspiratorial ramblings at the end of the "Madagascar" section of Cyberpirates! discusses some of the more bizarre possibilities, but that skeleton in one of the Mars photos certainly looks like a large reptile.

 -  I don't know if one of the later sourcebooks covered it, but something is going on with magic in EARTHDAWN - namely, that instead of continuing to decrease the magic level is remaining steady for some unknown reason.  '

 - Maybe you have to like both Tolkien and Gibson, not just one, to like Shadowrun.  Or at least it's true in my case.   

[Kot]

Well, as it was already written - i think - in Earthdawn magic was kept on a steady level by the workings of Theran Empire, or Atlantis, as it is known in SR.