[hemgath]

After reading the FAQ i had some question about Astral combat (i know "This question will be answered fully in an upcoming sourcebook. " but... need it to play corectly)
Apparently, a Ghoul PC or every PC Dual Natured (not only NPC critter ? ) can used is Power : "Natural weapon" for attack with Agility + unarmed combat ? (instead of willpo + astral combat). (can you confirm the Power "Natural Weapon" for a Player Character can be used for make attack with ag+unarmed combat?

So if you used your Natural Weapon (the Power...), why you don't make clasical damage?

I explain... A lot of the VVHM dual natured, or zoocanthrope (pc or npc) must to be dangerous in the astral plan... But a lot of them had a malus on charism...
Imagine a ghoul charactere start with a -2 in charism ? My question is "every dangerous ghoul and other bandersnach" are easy victim in astral plan? Or they're is a mistake in FAQ? Or only critter are dangerous?

I hope i was clear (english is not my natural language )

A thx for your answers !

[The_Gun_Nut]

If I'm reading this correctly, then a dual natured ghoul can use his Natural Weapon to attack spirits for his Natural Weapon damage.  He doesn't need to use his charisma, as he isn't trying to use his "force of will" to kill it, but his dual natured hands.  This means he uses his agility + unarmed combat to attack and deal damage.

The relevant rules are in the Critters section, SR4A pg. 296.

[FastJack]

Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their Physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities. Astrally projecting characters use their Mental attributes in place of Physical ones (see the Astral Attributes Table, above) along with the Astral Combat skill. There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (p. 199), and mana spells are the only options for astral combat.

The circumstances the FAQ is discussing is when Dual-natured and Astrally Perceiving characters are attacking something on the Astral. If they are attacking something on the Physical plane, they use their Physical attributes and skills.

[voydangel]

I know the RAW are really clear about this, but I really disagree with dual natured being needing to roll Willpower + Astral Combat to attack a wholely astral being. It just seems to me that they should have some sort of innate bonus to their "force of will" attacks by their very nature. Like perhaps using Willpower + either Astral combat or unarmed combat - which ever is better, or perhaps needing to roll astral combat but being able to replace Willpower with Agi. Obviously not both, but one or the other...

[FastJack]

But a wholly astral being is immune to everything on the Physical plane. It's not the Dual-natured being's arm hitting, it's still a force of will. Knowing how to hit something with your fist, or being quick on your feet means absolutely nothing on the Astral.

[Chaemera]

But a wholly astral being is immune to everything on the Physical plane. It's not the Dual-natured being's arm hitting, it's still a force of will. Knowing how to hit something with your fist, or being quick on your feet means absolutely nothing on the Astral.

I know the RAW are really clear about this, but I really disagree with dual natured being needing to roll Willpower + Astral Combat to attack a wholely astral being. It just seems to me that they should have some sort of innate bonus to their "force of will" attacks by their very nature. Like perhaps using Willpower + either Astral combat or unarmed combat - which ever is better, or perhaps needing to roll astral combat but being able to replace Willpower with Agi. Obviously not both, but one or the other...

We do have the following:

Most dual-natured critters are not listed as having the Astral Combat Skill; those with Natural Weapons can use their Unarmed Combat Skill instead (p.296, SR4A), but if for some reason a dual-natured critter is without a Natural Weapon, to keep them from being completely defenseless gamemasters are advised to give them the Astral Combat Skill equal to the critter's Unarmed Combat Skill.

And,

If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach).

So either way, unless the GM hates his own critters, the dual-natured being either has a natural weapon to use or can be assumed to have Astral Combat = Unarmed Combat. Granted, the dual natured creature with a natural weapon is at a potential advantage, having its normal damage value and getting to use Agility (according to the FAQ).

[The_Gun_Nut]

Um, ya, 'jack.  I already mentioned the thing.

I didn't copy/paste it, only because I'm lazy.

[hemgath]

So either way, unless the GM hates his own critters, the dual-natured being either has a natural weapon to use or can be assumed to have Astral Combat = Unarmed Combat. Granted, the dual natured creature with a natural weapon is at a potential advantage, having its normal damage value and getting to use Agility (according to the FAQ).

That the question...
And the circumstances the FAQ is discussing seem to be normal astral combat...

Quote from:  Catalyst SR4 FAQ

ASTRAL COMBAT

Can you clarify what skills and attributes are used in astral combat?

Attacker (dual natured or astral) Rolls: Willpower + Astral Combat + Weapon Focus
Attacker (dual natured critter with Natural Weapon) Rolls: Agility + Unarmed Combat
Defender (dual natured) Rolls: Reaction + Dodge (dodge)
 Reaction + Astral Combat(block/parry)  
Defender (astral) Rolls: Intuition + Dodge (dodge)
 Intuition + Astral Combat (parry/block)
Defender (dual natured) using Full Defense (Full Dodge): Reaction + Dodge + Dodge/Astral Combat
Defender (dual natured) using Full Defense (Full Parry): Reaction + Astral Combat + Astral Combat
Defender (dual natured) using Full Defense (Gymnastics Dodge): Reaction + Astral Combat + Dodge + Gymnastics
Defender (astral) using Full Defense (Full Dodge): Intuition + Dodge + Dodge/Astral Combat
Defender (astral) using Full Defense (Full Parry): Intuition + Astral Combat + Astral Combat
Damage Resistance (astral or dual natured): Willpower + Mystic Armor

[voydangel]

If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach).

Yea, I dig that. Had forgotten about it. Makes way more sense. I guess the only question now would be if a GM would consider things like drakes and Shapeshifters and Ghouls "Critters" whether or not it was PC controlled...

"Time for a house rule!" lol

[hemgath]

Yea, I dig that. Had forgotten about it. Makes way more sense. I guess the only question now would be if a GM would consider things like drakes and Shapeshifters and Ghouls "Critters" whether or not it was PC controlled...

"Time for a house rule!" lol

what else