[Chaemera]

How does that whole Increase Reflexes work with Force and all? You need to get the threshold wit hits, but what is the Force for?

Force=max hits you can get.

Sources, people

A spell's Force limits the number of hits (not net hits) that can be achieved on the Spellcasting Test.

Also, it's important for preventing your spells getting dispelled / disrupted

The dispelling magician makes a Counterspelling + Magic Opposed Test against the spell's Force + caster's Magic (+ Karma spent in the case of quickened spells). Each net hit scored on this test reduces the hits from the original test to cast to spell. If a spell's hits are reduced, any effects the spell applies are also reduced accordingly. If the spell's hits are reduced to 0, the spell immediately ends.

"to cast to spell" is original text, assuming it meant to read "to cast the spell". Yes, it shows up that way in both SR4 & SR4A.

For additional info, check out "Mana Barriers", I don't feel like quoting every bit of it, since the point has been made.

Also, AJ, please man, buy SR4A so I can stop having to cross-reference.

[The Laughing Man]

In most games I play if you only have 1 initiative pass you're asking for trouble.

With only 1 you'll get shot multiple times before you can even react.

[Doc Chaos]

So... most Mages in those games just die?

[Chaemera]

So... most Mages in those games just die?

I guess? Unless they all take the Increase Reflexes spell and bind a spirit to sustain it for them indefinitely. Or are hopelessly addicted to Jazz.

Yeah, my team is bored, but alive, with only one of them consistently having multiple IP's (2 when the Techno goes VR). Granted, I keep forgetting to have my CorpSec & street thugs use the drugs they keep in their back pockets to up their own IP's. . . bad GM.

[Mäx]

With only 1 you'll get shot multiple times before you can even react.

I guess your playing an older version then SR4 or your GM is houseruling the IP order.
By RAW everyone gets to act in the first IP, so those opponents with multiple IP:s don't get any IP:s before my 1IP guy and depending on my initiative they don't necessary even get to act before me.

[Critias]

With only 1 you'll get shot multiple times before you can even react.

I guess your playing an older version then SR4 or your GM is houseruling the IP order.
By RAW everyone gets to act in the first IP, so those opponents with multiple IP:s don't get any IP:s before my 1IP guy and depending on my initiative they don't necessary even get to act before me.

Given how often Shadowrunners tend to be outnumbered, and the probability of SA weapons and/or folks with a gun in each hand, someone can still certainly get shot multiple times before they get to act -- by a handful of gangers or security guards, if not by a single NPC.

[Chaemera]

With only 1 you'll get shot multiple times before you can even react.

I guess your playing an older version then SR4 or your GM is houseruling the IP order.
By RAW everyone gets to act in the first IP, so those opponents with multiple IP:s don't get any IP:s before my 1IP guy and depending on my initiative they don't necessary even get to act before me.

Given how often Shadowrunners tend to be outnumbered, and the probability of SA weapons and/or folks with a gun in each hand, someone can still certainly get shot multiple times before they get to act -- by a handful of gangers or security guards, if not by a single NPC.

But, that example has nothing to do with the number of IPs the character has, which was the point of Critias'Max's retort. Yes, you may get shot multiple times, but that's unpreventable if you got the bad luck of being at the bottom of the initiative chart. However, what Critias was saying, even if you're last of 10 initiatives, you act before any of them take their second IP.

EDIT
@Max - Yes, yes I did. Stupid "Check top quote to see who I'm talking about" methodology.

[Mäx]

I think you have me and critias mixed up.

[Nomad Zophiel]

I think various other discussions have well demonstrated that a non-Mr. Armor character caught in the open isn't going to get his extra initiative passes if the mage, Mr. SNS or basically any two people with moderate firepower are still standing when their first one comes around. Availability<13 gear is pretty damn effective against Armor<13. The nail that sticks up highest draws the hammer.

[Chaemera]

Which is why the only non-medium to -high armor PC in my group. . . stays inside the armored van.

[Nomad Zophiel]

I grant that I'm assuming the two both go up in a more or less linear fashion. That is to say that high availability gear can get through higher ratings of armor, especially when an entire team is focusing on the heavier guy. Cover will always be your friend. Hope that the guy with the chameleon suit and gas grenades is, too.

[Flycatcher]

Which is why the only non-medium to -high armor PC in my group. . . stays inside the armored van.

I know I'm nitpicking, but March is decently armored, he just lacks real world combat skills. You know that old saying about not bringing a knife to a gun fight? It doesn't matter if it's an old steak knife (civilian mundane) or a 32-function Swiss Army knife with inexplicable wireless access (support hacker/technomancer), if it doesn't directly aid you in a firefight, it's best not to utilize it in the firefight. Or so goes my logic.

Besides, who needs the meat world when I match IPs with the combat adept while in VR?

[Chaemera]

Which is why the only non-medium to -high armor PC in my group. . . stays inside the armored van.

I know I'm nitpicking, but March is decently armored, he just lacks real world combat skills. You know that old saying about not bringing a knife to a gun fight? It doesn't matter if it's an old steak knife (civilian mundane) or a 32-function Swiss Army knife with inexplicable wireless access (support hacker/technomancer), if it doesn't directly aid you in a firefight, it's best not to utilize it in the firefight. Or so goes my logic.

Besides, who needs the meat world when I match IPs with the combat adept while in VR?

In your case the quote isn't "Don't bring a knife to a gun-fight, bring a gun."  It is "Don't bring a book-worm to a gun-fight, bring a LAW-toting ork."

Also, to paraphrase V for Vendetta:

It's not a gun-fight, it's a bullet-fight. And when you're all out of bullets, I'll still have my knives.

EDITED
For random formatting fixes.

[Glyph]

One thing to remember about riggers and mages is that they may not always have more than 1 IP themselves, but their drones or spirits are another story.

[AJBuwalda]

One thing to remember about riggers and mages is that they may not always have more than 1 IP themselves, but their drones or spirits are another story.

Never thought about that. That is actually pretty awesome