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Magical Services

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Nomad Zophiel

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« on: <11-04-10/0254:20> »
I noticed Unwired had a great section on the prices of various services. I was wondering if there was something similar for magical services. I checked Street Magic and it seems to have everything but labor costs. There are a handful of Manipulation spells that a budding mage who doesn't want to work for the corps could make good money with. Clean Water, Fashion, Fix, Makeover, various Healing spells and Preserve look like they would be decent, licensed, above board services. Alter Memory isn't as legal but people would be willing to pay quite a bit. Is there anything official or is it pretty much "what the market will bear"?

FastJack

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« Reply #1 on: <11-04-10/0902:17> »
Oooh... good question. Maybe there might room for this in the upcoming Attitude book? What do you think JMH?

Longshot23

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« Reply #2 on: <11-04-10/1050:49> »
I have a vague memory of seeing prices for magical services somewhere in the SR library . . .

It might even have been in a book I don't have.  maybe one of 'The Shadowrun Supplementals' had something on the subject.  If I find it, I'll say where.

FoxBoy

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« Reply #3 on: <11-04-10/1437:29> »
Considering how rare magic is suppose to be, I'm thinking it's what the market will bear. And mages should be able to demand a lot.

1% of the populace are magical (by my last reckoning). That's hardly enough to support a magic driven market without their prices going sky high. Plus the effect of even a simple fashion spell by mages getting into designing clothes can be crazy. The mage could take about any fabric, hit it with a high enough fashion spell and in the space of 10 minutes, have EXACTLY what was in his mind now in reality, perfectly tailored for his client or model. Fashion spell overcasted for 10 successes? Watch out runway...

There's going to be a few corps whose bread and butter is the fashion industry, who will not like that at all.

I wonder if that would be a good excuse for a mage to turn 'runner....


Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #4 on: <11-04-10/1700:32> »

OK, 1% sounds like not a lot but. . . in a city of 10 million people, that's 100,000 mages. Let's say 1% of those have the Fashion spell and use it to make a living. That's still 1,000 mages competing with non-magical designers. At the low levels, the price would have to be comparable to a garment of the same quality. After all, why get a magic suit if you can get a regular one that's just as good for cheaper? (answer: Marketing!) At around 5-6 hits, you start getting close to Zoe quality and can charge as a brand unto yourself.  As for the Fashion spell, remember that the number of hits determines the quality, force limits the number of hits and overcasting causes wounds. So for a non-Initiate Mage to get 7+ hits is physically dangerous (and therefore expensive) and for an Initiate to cast the spell in the first place is expensive.

Lather, rinse, repeat with Makeover compared to the cost of one in the salon or the cost of toxic cleanup to a lake for Clean Water. Compare Fix with mechanic prices. These are all areas where there's a mundane equivalent (although not necessarily one on a price list in SR) that mages will be competing against. They have to do it better, do it cheaper or have really good advertising.

Critias

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« Reply #5 on: <11-04-10/1716:53> »
It's significantly less than 1%. 

1% of the population has Magic.  Period.  At all.  Adepts, one-trick-ponies with the Magical Knack Quality, Aspected Magicians, untrained Magicians, half-trained Magicians...1% of the population has a Magic score of 1.  They may or may not have skills to go with it, they may or may not even know they've got it.

It's generally been postulated that 1% of them are what the game categorizes as full-on Magicians.  Folks with a reasonably high Magic attribute, some skills to go along with it, and a collection of spells.

And then you've got to ask yourself how many of them are tied up in magical research?  How many are locked into exclusivity contracts with their megacorp?  How many are busy with their government, or a university? 

The ones that are left -- Shadowrunners included -- that would take part in this sort of thing should be a very, very, small number.

FoxBoy

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« Reply #6 on: <11-04-10/1745:12> »

OK, 1% sounds like not a lot but. . . in a city of 10 million people, that's 100,000 mages. Let's say 1% of those have the Fashion spell and use it to make a living. That's still 1,000 mages competing with non-magical designers. At the low levels, the price would have to be comparable to a garment of the same quality. After all, why get a magic suit if you can get a regular one that's just as good for cheaper? (answer: Marketing!) At around 5-6 hits, you start getting close to Zoe quality and can charge as a brand unto yourself.  As for the Fashion spell, remember that the number of hits determines the quality, force limits the number of hits and overcasting causes wounds. So for a non-Initiate Mage to get 7+ hits is physically dangerous (and therefore expensive) and for an Initiate to cast the spell in the first place is expensive.

Lather, rinse, repeat with Makeover compared to the cost of one in the salon or the cost of toxic cleanup to a lake for Clean Water. Compare Fix with mechanic prices. These are all areas where there's a mundane equivalent (although not necessarily one on a price list in SR) that mages will be competing against. They have to do it better, do it cheaper or have really good advertising.

True enough, and then there's the matter of time too. A fashion spell takes at most a few minutes to cast. Someone doing a dress by hand takes hours, sometimes DAYS. A rich lady looking for that one of a kind look just before going to the party only has to drop into her personal attendent, who then can do up her hair, giver her that healthy glow, make her very fashionable, and at the same time improve her charisma so she's a totak knock out.

Improved Charisma, Makeover, Fashion, Healthy Glow, maybe even Physical Disguise. Four spells that every true personal attendant should not miss. And it would take what, 10 minutes at the most? No mundane can hope to match that speed, and speed is what the customers are paying for.

Repairing roads? Control Asphalt. Granted, there's few that can cast it at a level high enough to actually affect it (threshold 4), but with it, your repair time went from days to minutes. For a manger who usually has to worry about equipment rental (or maintenance and storage), the wages of his men, and the fact he has to block traffic to do the repair work.. that one mage just saved his manager easily ten thousand or more. for 10 minutes of work. And the smart mage is going to know this, and charge appropriately. So.. he might save only 5k. But that's 5k more then he would have had normally.

voydangel

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« Reply #7 on: <11-04-10/1748:06> »

OK, 1% sounds like not a lot but. . . in a city of 10 million people, that's 100,000 mages.
...

@ nomadzophiel
I completely agree with your assessment of the fact that mages have competition that would drive the cost of their services down significantly, but (as you said) that competition comes from the mundane sector.

I would even go so far as to say that their competition comes almost exclusively from mundanes. It would not come from other mages, there just aren't enough of them for them to be able to afford to see each other as competition. A city of 10 million people is HUGE. The population of the city of New York (the most populated city in the US today) is only about 8.5 million people as of 2009, and according to Seattle 2072 book - Seattle has a population of only about 3 million - which means that your number of 100,000 just got cut down to only 30,000. Now, I don't know if that would force the costs of their services up or down but, even considering 30,000 is not a small number, it certainly isn't a big enough population for them to be at each others throats as it were. Especially considering how low that number gets when you take Critias' entire post about how not all of that 30,000 are "magicians" or even trained, etc. into account. And even moreso if we make assumptions that not all of them have the necessary spells and skills (as you said).

Personally, I think the qualities of Mage, Mystic Adept and Adept should be increased to reflect this population scarcity, but - maybe thats just me. ;)
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Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #8 on: <11-04-10/2216:18> »
Oh, agreed. Using ballpark that 300 mages (1% of 1%) have the spell you need to replace a mundane whatever, that's still a small number compared to the number of department stores that sell decent, off the rack suits. They may be able to cast a Fashion spell a round, in theory, but drain cuts down just how many they can really do in a day. Add to that the fact that if they want to produce high quality goods (say 4+ hits) they may have to do several before they get a single one, whereas the fashion house's nanoforge knocks out exactly the same item every single time at identical quality.

So in this example, you wind up with two types. Low end mages who knock out cheap suits and try to do it cheaper than Clothing Hut and high end ones who produce, on average, things as good as the higher-end fashion houses. Call that 230 low end and 50 mid range against (respectively) every cheap clothing place and every mom and pop tailor store. Their prices are going to be basically the same as their retail equivalent. The mage will be trying to make up for that by kicking out a high volume and having a lot less overhead in sweatshops and transportation. Then there might be one or two guys who are initiated to the point where they can eventually get enough hits to make something of a quality that could not be replicated by hand or technology (ie 7+). They're going to be charging based on high end fashion prices and on how much they could be making doing something else. With frequent rest breaks to recover stun it might take several days to get your suit just right by continually recasting on the same item. During that time you'd be paying the same as you'd pay a powerful mage to do anything else non-dangerous, like scrying, to a minimum of 5,000 nuyen (the rough cost of a very high fashion suit). Of course there's no hourly rate for mages published anywhere, so its hard to say how much that would be.

For something like memory editing or other non-dangerous but illegal magic, the price would skyrocket. Now you're talking about something that perhaps 4 or 5 people out of three million are willing to do at all and they are going to charge for it, a lot. You don't like their prices, you can find someone else. But is "a lot" equivalent to some new 'ware, a new car or is it in the corps and syndicates only range?

I continue to use the 1% of 1% because even people who work for a corp or do magical research may go around cleaning up lakes for charity or making suits for their friends on the weekend. In that case it may not come down to cash but its nice to have an idea of what sort of value society assigns to favors like that. Cash just happens to make a very convenient unit of exchange for tracking things like that. When your mage buddy with Evo cuts you a new suit, do you buy him a beer or a car to thank him?

As for increasing qualities, remember that a starting Adept is generally sinking 45-70 points into being an Adept, not 5. A mage spends the 5 more than that before counting spells.