Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Yue on (22:26:45/05-27-15)

Title: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Yue on (22:26:45/05-27-15)
Hi! I haven't introduced myself, but I'm Amy Veeres, a freelancer with Catalyst. I've written some stuff for Chrome Flesh and a new book in the 10 ______s series, but this thread is about something you'll see from me either late this year or early next, a book entirely about Technomancers!

So yeah, Technomancer supplement! I'm doing it with Dylan Stangel, the guy that wrote the TM rules in Data Trails, so don't worry, it's not "Oh god, they're letting the new girl go nuts, we're doomed." As an additional measure, this thread exists. I don't want it to just be my and his perspective.

What I'm looking for is all the feedback and suggestions you have on Technomancers. Positive, negative, neutral, personal attacks on devs and their writing, whatever you want. Maybe not that last one, but you get the idea. Tell me what works, what doesn't, what you miss, what you want gone, and I'll go through all of this and keep it in mind as I'm developing this book.

I'm not gonna make any promises that every single idea will be incorporated, but I'll read this regularly and keep as much in mind as possible. It would help if you explained why you want this or that, so that I get where you're coming from.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (23:05:59/05-27-15)
The following are my opinions of what I think would make technomancers more attractive and more playable.

1. Skinlink should be a base ability, not an Echo.
Reasoning: For 70 nuyen a technomancer can buy a set of trodes and get the ability to create a direct connection. Requiring a submersion and an Echo is too much for too little, and is in my opinion nowhere near balanced

2. Fade values are far too high for what you get.
Reasoning: Puppeteer is a great example where other abilities can achieve the same thing for less; coupled with the fact that technomancers take Matrix damage as stun/physical damage, and fade values make for one unconscious technomancer very quickly

3. Emulating programs should be a single echo, not one echo per program. Comparatively, a Decker spends less than 5k nuyen and has access to every single program available, while a technomancer would need to spend hundreds of karma to achieve the same thing. Technmancers should not be deckers, but not having access to certain programs (Browse in particular) for their living persona and/or having to use a deck (or commlink with a program module bow) is again nowhere near balanced from a mechanical perspective.

4. If changing the above is unfeasible, consider making technomancer so uniquely distinct from deckers that they don't at all fit the format for what most people consider to be a "magician of the Matrix).
Reasoning: technomancers are supposed to be intuitive users of the Matrix, but unfer current rules it is nearly impossible to make a technomancer accomplish some of the same things a Decker can. They went from being the Swiss army knife of the Matrix in SR4 to being an Aspected TechnoMagician in SR5, and they are hard to build well, hard to play well, and personally, I feel they don't really have a lot going for them currently. They're just kind of meh, in my opinion, because they are either discount hackers, or sprite commanders.

5. Please, please, PLEASE bring back streams and paragons, and explore the deep resonance and dissonance in more detail. More background on Pax and her quest to create dissonance pools would be awesome, but more info on the realms in general would be most excellent.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (23:44:09/05-27-15)
Following up on Herr's things.

1) While I never specifically thought about it, I pretty much do agree with the skin link being something more of a base ability of a technomancer, rather than an echo. Pretty much for the same reasons.

1a/3) Further more Echo's should be something actually powerful, not something that gives a slight nudge. A +1 in a matrix attribute is hardly something to write home about. But in the corebook, that is what we've got. Most of the things in there only give a slight nudge to the technomancers growth. Looking to the thing that is closest to technomancers we've got mages, who have the ability to completely rework the fabrics of reality and rules of their magic. With the centering metamagic, they start with a slight nudge to their ability to resist drain, that much is true. However, the important part is that they don't have to ever take that metamagic again. And now every time they submerge, they get another die for their drain tests.

Thats what the Technomancer's enhanced abilities should be giving him. Something like 1/2 submersion grade - minimum +1 to that particular echo's matrix attribute. The same is with the program, as it too quickly becomes too little too late with it. Also, they shouldn't have two echos that do the same thing.

2) The Fade values. Like Puppeteer in Herr's example, with its +4 fade value, so you can control 1 action. While Mages have the ability to control as many actions as they want or until their target beaks free with a -1 drain value, coupled with drain dice resistance, give mages the ability to do a lot more. Especially since 95% of the matrix actions are complex actions, and the only ones that are simple actions are pretty weak. I'm not even sure what matrix actions are free actions.



IMO You should want to have a Technomancer in your team because he can do stuff a Decker can't. But you don't want the technomancer to exactly replace a decker either. They should be able to help cover some of the stuff a decker, but ultimately they've got a lot more tools than deckers, but for things outside of what a Decker would normally do. Like complex forms that they can use in the physical world, such as my "The One" complex form that gives a technomancer a slightly better ability to avoid danger by reading and calculating bullet paths by sort of hacking into the smart gun systems. A technomancer should be able to do pretty much everything in Ghost in the Shell, as far as hacking someone's cybereyes in the middle of combat to make him disappear. Or hacking every camera and cybereye within a certain distance to cover his face.


Lastly.. And this is really really important.

Technomancer stuff shouldn't be ambiguous. Like for example Resonance Veil. What exactly /can/ you do with this? Well that depends on the GM and what he's willing to allow happen. Same with Editor and Puppeteer. Even the CF that increases noise is fairly ambigious on how long it lasts.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: ProfessorCirno on (00:12:20/05-28-15)
Hello Amy!  I've always been kinda interested in Technos (I was a bit of an Otaku fan in 3rd) but felt that they tended to sorta fall flat; SR5 is sadly no difference.  Rather then list a bunch of demands, I'm just sorta going to categorize where I feel their current strengths and weaknesses are, mostly in comparison to Deckers.

Weaknesses
Price of Entry
- In order to make a Techno with all the bells and whistles, the current cost is significantly higher then that of a Decker.  Deckers and Technos both need high resources/resonance and skills, but while Deckers only need good logic and intuition, Deckers need all four mental stats.  Likewise, Technos have Techno-only skills they need on top of normal hacking abilities!
- Resources A will get you not just a real good deck, it can also buy you lots of OTHER good stuff too!  Resonance on the other hand scales up your technomancer abilities...but not much else.  It is possible to ignore Resonance, sprites, and CFs, and just go "classic Otaku" style, but I personally think doing this misses out on why you'd want to make a technomancer to begin with!
- The decker specific "goodies" are mostly programs, but programs are really good.  Consider that a program to upgrade Sleaze costs a handful of nuyen, whereas a technomancer has to spend an entire submission on it!  Likewise, a Rating 6 Agent is a must-have and costs one immediate payment of nuyen, while sprites need to be created each time and potentially hurt you whenever you do it.
- Deckers can make up for lower physical stats with 'ware (the decker I last played made good use of a single expenditure of muscle 'ware to keep him actually mobile!) while technomancers are strongly shooed away from using 'ware...which unfortunately cuts down their ability to dump physical stats the way a decker might.
- A Decker can by default hardlink into a device to access a host, bypassing the huge firewall - which is great!  It helps incentivize deckers to be on-premise and with the group, rather then just nap in the back, and keeps them in the action.  Unfortunately, Technos can't do that...unless they spend a fairly good chunk of karma on one of their submissions.
Versatility
- A Techno can never protect their buddies' gear (or their own, in fact) the same way a Decker can.
- Use of 'ware gives Deckers a large variety of options Technos don't otherwise have.  The Decker I mentioned playing had a pimped out cyberarm with a hidden holster for his gun; if he couldn't hack it, he could shoot it.  Deckers can also side-line as Riggers - or at least have some drones on command - with far more ease then Technos can.  Technos are basically always going to be doing one thing: hackin'.  Deckers can add other stuff to their resume.
Cost of Upgrade
- Simply put, a Decker can upgrade themselves using both nuyen and karma; a Techno can only use karma.  Nuyen after a certain point is all but worthless to a Techno, unless they want to save up and retire, but where's the fun in that?  ;)
Cost of Ability Usage
- Techno fading numbers are absolutely insane.  Puppeteer is a really cool ability - the best technos have, probably - but it costs more then twice flat out mind control does in stun damage.  CFs are rarely used when even the smallest one is going to knock you out of commission.

Strengths
Versatility
- Most CFs are bad, but there are two or three that are so awesome they almost make up for the bad ones.  Everyone knows how versatile Puppeteer is.  Resonance Veil can also be extremely potent depending on your GM. 
- Likewise, there's no Gremlins ability for Deckers.  A fault sprite can wreck havoc that Deckers could never dream of.
- Assuming your GM is ok with it, machine sprites and Diagnostics is the best "buffing" ability in the game.
- Depending on how you build your stats, Technos can choose to always have their entire ASDF be high, rather then one high, two middling, and one low.  This will likely become far more useful in deep runs into the Foundation, where you can't change out your deck.
Cost of Upgrade
- Buying a new deck out of chargen is beyond expensive; I've found it only seems to happen when the GM gives you a mission with a new deck as part of the payout.  For Technomancers, it is relatively easier to save up enough karma to either upgrade a stat point or to gain a stat increasing submission.

So as it stands, Technos have a small number of abilities that are awesome, but they're almost all Matrix-only, cost way too much, and depend somewhat heavily on GMs being lenient.  In workhorse mode, they fall behind Deckers rather badly.  Worse yet, technos seem to lack some of the more basic necessities that Deckers get immediately.  Because they can't use nuyen to upgrade themselves, this leads to them eternally falling behind; the longer the game goes on, the greater the lead between the two.  While mechanically technos can be compared to mages, they lack the huge array of spells, only effect the Matrix, have nothing similar to foci, their sprites are more limited, and their drain/fading significantly more severe.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (01:16:26/05-28-15)
Something needs to be done to improve techno viability at creation. As it stands now the only techno build that is viable is the Sprite Summoner build.
There has been a lot of threads on this topic, between the character review section and several long threads on house rules to fix technos, many of which were simply 5th updates of previous edition material. Given that the class is both very multi-attribute dependent, and requires it's own priority for resonance, means it's at significant disadvantage in terms of resources as everyone has pointed out. This is further complicated by the fact that like Mages, technos can't really afford to lose essence. So something needs to be done to expand the basic power set to address the viability issue.

The place to start in my opinion is CFs. For example the Smartlink CF, As you know, I'm sure, we had this back in 4th,  and it was very helpful in most basic sense of increasing initial character viability.  More CFs that can assist the Techno's in the meat world directly are critical steps in the right direction. CF are costed as spells, but they don't have anything like the utility of spells, and that really needs to change. A CF that allows a Techno to simulate an echo while it's sustained would be ideal, but something to address those issues is needed.

Clarification on Techno's relationship to Icons, and connecting to devices is also an area that really needs to be looked at.  There has been some debate over whether Techno's are able to use Icons, or even maintaining connections to devices. The debate was based upon the wording in the SR5 core, and even I had to agree that it was confusing. While I do think the touch-link thing fairly clearly shows that they can, the mechanics of that are not very clear, and need to be specified.

Drones and Technos also need to be clarified, the biggest question I had when i looked at this was can sprites pilot drones? If not, then can we get  a new type of sprite that does? A rigger Techno would be a great alternative that's very difficult to do under RAW, some support would go a long way to fixing that. Also I personally would like clarification upon what happens when you diagnostic a drone? Does it add to the whole system or A specific subsystem etc?

Finally I'd really like to suggest that some kind of Foci icons perhaps somehow linked in with wireless bonuses would be my suggestion. They could easily be based upon echos or sprite powers, or be like sustaining foci to keep up CFs. The fact that only one build is viable needs to be addressed, the ability to sustain certain powers; particularly diagnostic (for its bonus die to equipment use) could open up plenty of other paths. They also really need to be an avenue for techno's to spend money on, as it's basically completely lacking right now.

Thanks for taking time to listen Amy. Good luck with the book.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (01:44:17/05-28-15)
Quote
Something needs to be done to improve techno viability at creation. As it stands now the only techno build that is viable is the Sprite Summoner build.

Oh right, I've had some thought in that myself.

Its one of the things I've wondered.. Why do Technomancers start off with 5 CFs, and Mages start off with 10 spells? Why do Technomancers get points into two skills within only one group While mages have three different groups they can get?

Some of the things I've been thinking of with the houserules, is setting it up that you can put those free points TMs get in Cracking, Computers or Resonance skills.

Also, Why TMs don't need to have all the CFs mages do in spells, Perhaps, not losing 3 of them if you go from A to B would be nice?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (01:56:49/05-28-15)
Mesh Reality! By default! For everyone!

So in SR4 Mesh Reality allowed TMs and technocritters to have access to their physical initiative and virtual initiative at the same time. But they can't have more physical passes then they have, and would have to use the rest of their passes on VR actions. To explain these rules with the current initiative will be very tricky. Basicly, a character will need to roll twice, once to find their VR init and again to find their physical init. Then see how many passes they can have for each.

Now the reason I think everyone should have Mesh Reality, including deckers and all characters really, is to make Matrix actions a bit easier to blend with the meat game. This way everyone can run down a hall while being chased by HTR, and the hacker and hack doors or other security devices and run at the same time. But if you only give it to TMs...I guess i'd be okay with that...

So one of the big problems with TMs right now is their sleaze. Its based off of int, and int can only go up to 6, 7 with exceptional attribute, and higher with some cheese from surge and metavariants, which I wouldn't recommend. I think that's a bit of a problem considering that sleaze is used to defend against Matrix Perception. Its not very difficult for a decker to get sleaze up to 8 at chargen, and now with Data Trails up to 9 without too much trouble.

Nuyen sinks. TMs need more ways to burn money to progress. The awaken, who are also karma heavy archetypes, have foci and reagents to burn nuyen on. Deckers and Riggers are heavy nuyen sinks. And Street Sams seem to have a pretty good mix with ware and skills to burn karma on. Unless a TM goes rigging, they don't have anything worth wild to spend their nuyen on, unless they want to cyber up, which leads to resonance problems.

Fix submergence cost, this will hopefully be done with errata to core.

More sprite powers! Sprites are awesome because they give a lot more tricks for TMs, but spirits have EVEN MORE TRICKS and on top of that can fight in the meat world while being immune to weapons. These things are clearly not equal. Its hard for people to attack sprites, but they can become totally immune to them by turning off wireless.

Can we have different categories for complex forms which TMs can specialize in. Kind of like how mages can specialize in combat spells, which affects all combat spells. Right now, TMs have to specialize in ONE complex form. Seems pretty unfair.

Can we maybe used physical attributes in place of mental to calculate the living persona. Or possibly make it easier to raise mental attributes. Or make it so there is less of a reason for TMs to need to max out mental attributes at chargen. Being able to use physical attributes might help make orks and trolls more viable as TMs. As opposed to where they are now, which is terrible. The way it is now also makes elves too damn strong for Matrix attack actions.

Less skills! TMs need like 9 skills. That's insane, and makes it hard for them to branch out. So either make those 9 skills do all the most amazing things, or somehow allow them to not need 9 skills to do their job.

Tools to help TMs get into hosts at chargen. Maybe a complex form or something.

I actually don't think fading is that bad. TMs have no cap on resonance, so at some point, they'll get it so high that fading becomes trivial.

Paragons and Streams, of course.

Ally Sprites? Sprite packs? Other ideas totally stolen from magic.

Clearly MCT made cyborg TMs without affecting their resonance. Rules to make those would be awesome.

Sustaining focus. I guess sprites can handle it...but having something that works like a focus might be nice.

Latent Technomancy. I realize that all the Latent qualities were chargen traps in SR4, but I did have a player that took it.

PANs. Though, I'm not sure about that, I think Data Trails might have solved this problem with the sleaze dongle for commlinks. Hell, I could infuse that and get sleaze up to 10.

TM Priority is all jacked up. At priority A Resonance is something like 80-ish karma while for mages it's over 100. This discrepancy is very problematic when you consider how much stronger mages are.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I might add more later.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: ZeldaBravo on (03:39:24/05-28-15)
Hello Amy! Glad you are so interested in feedback. I wanna share some thoughts too.
The biggest problem with technomancers is that currently they require a HUGE amount of resources to build and even then they still are not that good. I mean, any other archetype can effectively contribute to the Run in multiple ways, and Technos are limited to Matrix. Technomancers are so multiple attributes dependant and multiple skills dependant that they cannot afford to spend their valuable build points on anything other than their Living Persona and Matrix&Resonance skills. That means Technomancer characters and players don't have a lot to do in the game. Shadowrunners tend to be specialists but Technomancers are kinda one trick ponies. Seriously, technomancers can do like ONE thing now: they can hack things. Yeah they have Sprites and some unique abilities and mechanics but they still can only do one thing. Being unique doesn't make you more useful or fun if you just sit around and don't participate in the gameplay, and when you do participate the other players don't because you're in the Matrix.
Honestly I don't know how to fix it without breaking everything. Technos are 'high cost - mediocre reward' so maybe lower the cost? They don't need to be more powerful in Matrix. Different rules for Living Persona stats? Change Resonance priority selection to BCD (similar to what adepts and aspected magicians have)? Maybe make Resonance attribute unaffected by essence loss to cyberware? Or maybe you could make technomancers less skill dependant by letting them use their resonance skills instead of their matrix skills for some occasions?
TL;DR technomancers should need less resources to build so they could afford to interact with the meat world more.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: TheDai on (06:12:02/05-28-15)
Good Morning everyone,

well ... I am not nearly as experienced than others who posted here ... but ... the general theme here seems to be "Please ! Fix Technomancers!" (and I'm totally on board with that)

But for many things, it is already too late. Skinlink Echo isn't going away, Core Fade Values aren't going away, and I do not think the priority table will be updated in favor of Technomancers.

What I would like to see:
Sprites - Sprites everywhere ! And when all of the pages are filled with nothing but sprites, add some more ! And perhaps equivalent Positive / Negative Qualities the Mages have.
Perhaps Sprites could have Programs, like spirits have additional Powers. Or they have additional powers. That would also work I guess.

Something like a Focus -  When it comes to Complex Forms, when going ALL IN at Character Creation a person can end up with about 12 Dice for Fading (Res 6; Will 6). Since there is no real reason to cast a complex Form below Force 4 (because Force is your Limit and you always go against 2 Enemy Attributes) there is practically no chance to not get out with no damage to yourself. If one, for some reason, starts with Resonance 3 or 4 and if you went completely insane with the thought that Logic might be more important than Willpower and also have that only at 4 or 5, there is practically no use for complex Forms whatsoever, if you don't blow edge on them. A Focus for increased Limit on CF's or reduced fading, or increased dice Pool for Fading Damage would be very helpful. Or -any- other way to reduce the Damage to your own Face when you try something, that isn't just copying what a Decker would do.

Paragons and Streams for obvious reasons.

Something that lets me use Smartguns without the Smartlink upgrade in Eyes, Contacts, Glasses. (Just a personal preference, as I always just "see" the AR, my character refuses to put anything over his eyes that would bloat his vision even more. Think of it ... ARO's from the device overlaying what you would normally see, and changing everything all the time on two different "devices". Must be a chore and must feel really weird as a character)

In the end, the TM's are separated into some Archetypes:
Zoomancer - With an Army of Sprites he brings down his foes. His own Matrix Abilities are rather weak but the two fault Sprites on his Sides are a force to reckon with.
Hackermancer - He is a Decker, without a Cyberdeck. If necessary, he sacrifices his resonance for Cyber/Bioware (like cerebral booster) and only uses his awakened abilities to improve his hacking skills even more or in extreme dire situations. (The most and easiest way to play - but a mundane Decker is just plain better here)
Dronomancer - Doing everything a Rigger does, but it costs him 40 Karma instead of 100.000NY, and he may or may not get a cable with it (RAW) depending which book you hold in your hands.

Which is basically ... Conjurer, Combat Mage and Alchemist.

Why not Adeptomancer ? - Not only his Brain can emulate machines, but his Body as well. Buffing himself with the Powers of Cyberware, without having any.

The Problem is: Zoomancer burns through his Sprite like a crazy Person and needs heavy investment in Both Skills and Attributes while they can't do much more than what you would do on your own.
Hacknomancer has no versatility as he cannot reconfigure, has only access to programs after investing a heavy amount of Karma in submersion, needs very high mental attributes as well as very high skill levels. This will get a character so heavily Karma starved, that it seems he runs through a desert all his life.
Dronomancer: Cannot be played without your first submersion. And even then it is a little weird.

These should have new merits for themselves. So far everyone tries to get a mix between Hacking and Sprites and has the Feeling, that a mundane decker with a few Agents would do the same but probably better in most cases. This isn't a good feeling. :/

Good Luck, Yue !
We all depend on you.

Regards,
TheDai
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sterling on (07:48:14/05-28-15)
I guess I'm a little different in that I would like to see a little more fluff in the book showing some of the ways that Technomancers are not just Deckers without 'decks.

A lot of the complaints I read seem to boil down to "Why can't my Technomancer do everything the Decker can?" (The obvious answer would appear to be "Because then he'd be a Decker".)

Most players can easily grasp the difference between a Street Sam and a Physical Adept, but there is more confusion over the difference between a Decker and a Technomancer, and I believe that a Technomancer e-book would be the perfect place to show that difference, rather than lumping them both together under "Hackers".
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (08:25:48/05-28-15)
Actually, here's the issue I tend to see, first with 4e, and now with 5e: the technomancer fails at being even a decker, when they are meant to be decker-plus.

The only thing an otaku/technomancer should not have (IMO) is storage capacity; I like that restriction. But a technomancer needs to be able to do everything a decker can do, self-generate all the programs a decker can run (within limits, perhaps like the guy with the deck the technomancer is only being able to carry a certain number of programs in his (literal) memory at a time), do everything that a decker can do - and then do things that the decker cannot.  The technomancer, like the mage alongside him, is meant to break the standard rules of physics, only it's the physics of the 'trix he violates.

Allowing technomancers to dial some things back, or change a few tidbits, is nice and neat and all, but it honestly doesn't do the job when it comes to that sense of wonder, the Rule of Cool, that technomancers are meant to have.  Violate causality for us.  Or enable us to do so.  As it stands (well, from 4th, honestly), it ... kind of went away ...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Taejix on (08:33:09/05-28-15)
I guess I'm a little different in that I would like to see a little more fluff in the book showing some of the ways that Technomancers are not just Deckers without 'decks.

A lot of the complaints I read seem to boil down to "Why can't my Technomancer do everything the Decker can?" (The obvious answer would appear to be "Because then he'd be a Decker".)

Most players can easily grasp the difference between a Street Sam and a Physical Adept, but there is more confusion over the difference between a Decker and a Technomancer, and I believe that a Technomancer e-book would be the perfect place to show that difference, rather than lumping them both together under "Hackers".
Making Technomancers more distinct from Deckers would also be an acceptable option.

Unfortunately they don't have that, outside of a few highly specific builds. Either they need to be able to keep up with Deckers, or they need to have their own spin on things that's actually worth using.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: ScytheKnight on (08:54:13/05-28-15)
I'm not so much complaining that they're not like a Decker.. I get, and encourage them being something different. What my issue is they're simply a bad hacker. Just as there's a difference between a Street Samurai and a Physical Adept, but both are good at physical combat, there should be differences between Deckers and Technomancers, but both being good at hacking. An the Technomancer just... isn't.

Also your analogy kinda falls apart... both Street Sams and Physical Adepts are known for their lightning fast speed, one does it via 'ware the other does it via power points... the effect is still the same, it's just arrived at by different means. So yes, they are different, but they have different means of achieving the same end goals, the goal for a Decker and a Technomancer is to be a hacker, something Deckers massively excel at... and something Technomancer a completely piss-poor at unless you now EXACTLY what you're doing.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Kincaid on (08:57:53/05-28-15)
I'm all for making deckers and technomancers distinct--I think that's really important, actually.  At a basic level, both should be able to perform similar tasks, but how they go about doing it can vary wildly and there absolutely should be "technomancer-only" and "decker-only" stuff.

I'm going to assume that the ebook isn't backwards looking--that is, if Puppeteer's FV is going to get reduced, that will happen in errata to the core book, not in a new product.  The TM's MAD issue is what it is, but adding content to make their ultimate ceiling higher can make the chargen buy-in more attractive.

Something I slipped into DT was the idea of progressive echoes: FFF can't be your first echo.  This could be built upon in various ways that address some of the concerns raised in this thread without resorting to wholesale errata.  For example, a second-tier echo that includes the abilities of skinlink with some other nifty power that are thematically related or an echo that mimics programs that gets progressively more powerful with each subsequent submersion (TMs have a distinct storage problem, so getting all the programs in a single dump seems anti-thematic).  Additionally, you could have echos with prerequisites of other echos, giving TMs more branching options.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Beta-Max on (09:02:47/05-28-15)

It feels like the TM in SR5 is suffering a bit of an identity crisis. In SR4 they were Matrix-Swiss-Army-Knives, doing things with code that a Decker WISHES they could do. Granted this was part of how hacking/decking has changed in SR4 to SR5. When programs were KING it made total sense for most of the TM's core powers to be based around the concept of "i know some scripts that will work...i just gotta super charge it" or "ok, let me cobble something together, gimme a second" Sprites haven't actually changed in their use so i'll talk about them later.

With the change of programs to be essentially mods to pre-existing actions, that left a gap in the TM's functionality, their identity. I'm not trying to start a debate on purpose, just saying my own thoughts on the matter. As it stands, a TM to me feels like a mediocre decker substitute with a few powers that are completely unique...but not at all useful to the task at hand. I know some people are going to want to argue with me but a way to view the TM should be a "magical decker" Should they be able to achieve the same goals as a Decker? Yes, but in very different ways. Someone said Decker + or the comparison from a Street Sammi to an Adept. If a TM can't handle all the jobs a Decker can do in SOME way. Then why have one on your team instead of a Decker?

There are a lot of posts here already that compare the TM to the Mage, this isn't a bad place to start. The trick is that the CFs need to be relevant to Matrix life, but can give that extra BOOST that differentiates a TM from a decker. Prime example: The CF that allows you to exist on all grids at once. That is the kind of thing that a decker WISHES he could do, and because he's not acting across grids, it makes it easier for him to act. There need to be more CFs like this one. The overwatch cleaning CFs are in this same category, it helps the TM in his role as a hacker but in a very different way.

I'll agree heavily with what has already been said:

Skinlink should be a core ability (i'd also add in that they also have the innate equivalent of the Wrapper power to change icons outside the basic matrix parameters..I think it makes fun roleplay)

Fading too high with little to no way of mitigating it (an old gaming adage, is if something is so good EVERYONE will want it, then something needs to be fixed) Who WOULDN'T play a TM with Otaku to TM for the assist in fade resistance?

Skills! - Too many of them. its this extra load that makes a TM just a little bit harder to make them viable

An echo that essentially provides a program slot (can even have it be a number of programs equal to submersion grade)

Bring Back Widgets and the other advanced echoes such as skillsoft emulation (DAMN that was useful!)

The fastest way to fix the dronomancer concept, some kind of piloting sprite or Dog-brain emulator. The issue i'm seeing is the Sprite's overwatch score, and limited number of tasks, but something along those lines. Perhaps a CF that lets you jump into a drone, as a temporary mimic of a Control Rig, but the echo gives you a permanent ability. That would allow the differentiation between a TM who wants to use a drone vs a TM thats ALL about the drones.

I really also want to see what its like being a TM in the new matrix, some solid, this is how a TM perceives and interacts with the world around them. Do they see AR all the time? How the heck do you message a TM if they aren't using any devices? (does anyone know the commcode for my head?) I know we've all got our own interpretations of how this all works, but i'd like to hear yours.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: anchoress on (10:11:10/05-28-15)
I'm not so much complaining that they're not like a Decker.. I get, and encourage them being something different. What my issue is they're simply a bad hacker. Just as there's a difference between a Street Samurai and a Physical Adept, but both are good at physical combat, there should be differences between Deckers and Technomancers, but both being good at hacking. An the Technomancer just... isn't.

Also your analogy kinda falls apart... both Street Sams and Physical Adepts are known for their lightning fast speed, one does it via 'ware the other does it via power points... the effect is still the same, it's just arrived at by different means. So yes, they are different, but they have different means of achieving the same end goals, the goal for a Decker and a Technomancer is to be a hacker, something Deckers massively excel at... and something Technomancer a completely piss-poor at unless you now EXACTLY what you're doing.

Please listen to this guy. Actually, TMs are a nice, different thing. But deckers can achieve so many more goals with simple improvements... If you really want to add something to TMs, then make them unique! Not a decker-plus. There are so many different build options for magicians (summoners, spellslinger [with their own category specializations], ritual spellcaster, alchemists, etc.), please try to think in the same direction with deckers and TMs. Try to offer different options to build them, to create decisions for us players. This is what makes building a character worth the time you put into it.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Golyo on (15:48:51/05-28-15)
I would love to decrease the number of infuse/diffuse CFs. Either 4 (depending on matrix attribute) or 2 (infusion or diffusion) would be enough to make them some sense.

The pain editor echo looks great, you could try adding a cerebral booster one as well or just an echo that helps you increase your registered spire stable. Alternately you could try to think of some more bioware that would be tempting for a TM, like pain editor and cerebral booster now.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (16:24:49/05-28-15)
Different rules for Living Persona stats? Change Resonance priority selection to BCD (similar to what adepts and aspected magicians have)? Maybe make Resonance attribute unaffected by essence loss to cyberware? Or maybe you could make technomancers less skill dependant by letting them use their resonance skills instead of their matrix skills for some occasions?
TL;DR technomancers should need less resources to build so they could afford to interact with the meat world more.

I just want to emphasizes ZB's questions, as they do get directly at the heart of the issue.

Making an add-on to cyberware that would make it not effect resonance or go the other direction of make a mechanic in resonance that lets you negate the effect of essence loss on resonance, under certain conditions. (Like Gaes's back in previous editions) It could work, it opens up a bunch off doors, but it still isn't that helpful starting out.

In the current Cannon, Techno's are seen as huge boogie men, but compared to your average wizard Techno's have way less ability to harm folks. Which leads to a strange but very direct disconnect between the story and the system reality.

I'm not saying techno's should be decker plus, I agree that Adept is to streetsam and techno is to decker. But from the system view this is somewhat harder to pin down, as it by nature can be a solo assignment, which is table disruptive. But the Idea of a techno being the hacker that comes with you on the run and does what the decker does only doing from AR, strikes me as sort of the sweet spot, to aim for. I really think techno's and wireless bonuses are two great tastes that can taste great together. I just am not sure how to make that happen yet, possibly enhance everyone's wireless bonus through something like a teamwork roll?

I don't think everything needs to be thrown out of kilter to make this happen, I think most of the tools to achieve this are already around, if not in 5th then in 4th. My thoughts on where to go with techno's fall mostly into video gamer "archetypes". First Person Shooter (FPS), this would be a techno who's crossed a little into the gunny bunny zone, using init enhancer echos, sprite powers to enhance Gun skill, while still doing some decent hacking. Analogous to the combat decker. Real time Strategy (RTS), more of a mastermind type, like traditional decker; they come along for the ride, but will probably stay in the van, waiting for the team to execute their master plan. Next Social Gamer (SG), This would be the face crossover, socially gifted, highly networked, always tweeting/skyping/fbing  uses the fact that Techno's are so MAD to get some mileage out of that Cha and Int. Lastly the MOBA techno this would be the idea of a drone techno, selecting and jumping in and enhancing her/his drone as she/he rolled around and did the mission.

Now all these things are possible under RAW right now they just aren't effective at it. Like adepts in previous editions they need some support, and expanded options.
 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (21:04:48/05-28-15)
I want to further post in on this, as Technomancers and Changeligns are like.. my two peeps.

I feel the two biggest issues that a Technomancer faces is Ambiguity and Karma Bottleneck. A lot of its abilities are so easily able to be denied by GMs. Or perhaps other GMs buff them. It depends on which line of the fence your in.

Cleaner - This one is unclear if when you hit 0 OW, what happens? Some GMs stop all the overwatch rolls, as you clearly haven't done anything wrong now on the matrix. Other GMs will continue to roll until you reboot.

Editor - Does this only mimic the editing portion of the edit file action? And do you still trigger bombs, gotta get it unlock?

Pulse Storm - How long does this last?

Resonance Veil - What counts as being "in the matrix"? It seems simple until you realize how often devices can interact with something in the physical world. Can it make something think your its owner or you've got marks on it?

Machine sprite - I've seen lots of Gms who deny almost every use of diagnositscs, because of things like "There is no team work test in shooting." or "the devices ability to pass information is too limited for that." etc.


Having nine skills to train wouldn't be that bad.. Okay Eight, Decompile is basically useless.. but it wouldn't be bad if Technomancers didn't bottle neck in karma costs. Having some of the echos of like the datajacks and wires and stuff could greatly assist with that, as well as having things that cost nuyen that can work out of that.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Miri on (01:23:11/05-29-15)
If you are going to push a lot of abilities over to complex forms I would like to see a generic quality that can be taken to reduce the -2 dice penalty for sustaining a spell/complex form.  I'm not sure why they did away with the "While sustaining you are at -2 dice for everything except for any roll that might involve the thingie being enhanced by the spell/complex form"

Edited to add: A Technomancer version of Quickening would be nice also..
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Beta-Max on (07:17:52/05-29-15)
They have one Miri, focused concentration.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Miri on (14:57:33/05-29-15)
They have one Miri, focused concentration.

No.. that is Focused Concentration.. I mean a way to make a Sustained Complex Form like Infusion of X permanent, no longer needing to be sustained.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (18:37:34/05-29-15)
Infusions are not permanent. So I don't understand what your asking for, can you give more examples?
 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Pixie on (18:42:41/05-29-15)
They have one Miri, focused concentration.

No.. that is Focused Concentration.. I mean a way to make a Sustained Complex Form like Infusion of X permanent, no longer needing to be sustained.

I think allowing any Complex Form to become permanent is a terribad idea.  Once the TM logs off, or the target logs off, the form would have to dissipate anyway.  This is just an awful idea.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Miri on (18:51:49/05-29-15)
So why isn't it a bad idea to allow mage's to bump up their stats with Increase Attribute and then make it permanent with Quickening?   Allowing for permanency for some of the complex forms would alleviate the serious MAD that Technomancers have.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (19:03:50/05-29-15)
So why isn't it a bad idea to allow mage's to bump up their stats with Increase Attribute and then make it permanent with Quickening?   Allowing for permanency for some of the complex forms would alleviate the serious MAD that Technomancers have.

I'm not in anyway saying Techno Quickening is a terrible idea, it could be a perfectly reasonable idea; Under the same cost constraints
It's just not on my list for making techno's viable at creation. It could indeed go a long way towards solving the MAD issues. But it's a much longer term solution.

Quickening is a metamagic that tends to be a polarizing issue though, and I don't think polarizing is useful to the thread.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (20:39:58/05-29-15)
Here's an idea; leave Fade values where they are (as has been mentioned, this is unlikely to change), but introduce a piece of gear like reagents for technomancers.

Right now, technomancers are going to take a whole headfull of hurt trying to thread complex forms at high level, just like magicians casting spells at high force. Magicians can use reagents and Edge to counteract this, however, while technomancers are forced to rely on Edge alone. Digital reagents (call them whatever you like; bitcoins, widgets, code snippets, resonance capacitors, etc, etc) would go a long way to offset some of the harsher drain values. Being able to thread Puppeteer at Level 1 but with a limit of 8 and still having to resist 5 Fade DV is a lot more attractive than threading it at Level 8 and having to resist 12 Fade DV. Yes, Technomancers get better at resisting Fade as their connection to the Resonance increases (since one of their Fade attributes is Resonance, unlike magicians which do not resist Drain with Magic), but that does absolutely nothing for the beginning technomancer who is stuck resisting ludicrous Fade values with a maximum dice pool of around 12.

And I'd like to reiterate the desire for streams and paragons to return.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (20:52:17/05-29-15)
Mages have a different trick up their sleeves however in the form of the Centering Metamagic. Once they've got this they can at their initiation grade to Fade tests by spending a free action. They can also get a foci to further augment that.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Pixie on (01:47:28/05-30-15)
So why isn't it a bad idea to allow mage's to bump up their stats with Increase Attribute and then make it permanent with Quickening?   Allowing for permanency for some of the complex forms would alleviate the serious MAD that Technomancers have.

Because:

A) quickened spells exist in the physical world and affect things that don't disappear from the physical world
B) quickened spells exist in the astral plane and affect things that don't disappear from the astral plane
C) quickened spells carry other penalties, such as making a mage really easy to spot from the astral plane - this would be a doubly bad penalty for a technomancer, given that discretion and hiding are the hallmarks of a good hack
D) they don't have to reboot.  When you reboot your device or persona, it's gone.  As in, does not exist.

A better alternative would be the inclusion of reagents that can lower Fading values and Widgets to sustain spells for you while you're logged in.  A technomancer would have to create the widget each time they connect, but that would be at least something...  feasible.  What you're (not) describing is something permanent, akin to Quickened spells.  The problem there is that a Quickened spell will exist in the physical or astral world long after the mage has left.  When a technomancer leaves the Matrix, everything comes with him.  Can you imagine, as a technomancer, using Infuse Firewall and having it be permanent?  When you've logged off the Matrix, there's no Firewall to infuse anymore.  If you use it on a different person, and you leave the Matrix, GOD could come crashing down on you just because they found the other person.

Permanency is not something that should happen.  Some other method of sustaining a complex form while you're logged in, however, I'd support.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: callmedinosaur on (03:01:41/05-30-15)
If there's a really really simple way to help technomancers out and regain some of the niche the used to occupy, along with a lot of the feel they used to have, give them  complex forms they can use to boost things outside of just their matrix attributes, let them play around with technical skills and mental attributes in ways that specifically boost them when dealing with the matrix or device related tests.

like a smartgun interface complex form that can be sustained and let the technomancer have regular smartlink bonuses (and maybe even optimized ones, it'd be right in the wheelhouse of a techno having a better relationship with machines, and honestly they need all the help they can with combat right now),  or a complex form that let's them boost and sustain knowledge or language skills to for them to use resonance and software to build themselves a "script" that finds and feeds them possibly relevant information from the matrix right into their brain while they're doing stuff in meat space of the matrix.

in particular though, give them a complex form that allows them to choose a particular matrix action and add dice to their pool for that action

(if that's too expansive then make a complex form that  allows them to do that but limits the chosen matrix action to ones linked with a particular matrix stat.)

almost like a much more measured version of their ability to use complex forms to sustain programs in fourth edition.

make the drain as high as is balanced. even with a high drain, it's a lot less powerful in comparison to equivalent spells a magician has, and with the programs and cyber a decker has access to, it seems like it would balance out pretty well, and also let players make technomancers that FEEL like older technomancer characters did without going too nuts. in fact it'd make new technomancers with their much wider variety of complex forms in addition to the one (or four) representing a more balanced version of the complex forms they used to use.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Miri on (03:47:08/05-30-15)
I would like to see some clarification in a FAQ about how obvious some CFs are.

I hit a Spiders deck with a Puppeteer and get the net hits I need to set of a Invite Mark Matrix action.  Does that Spider know his deck just did something that he didn't tell it to?  Should there be a "Seeing a Resonance Action in the Matrix" ala detecting Magic in meatspace? Something like (TMs Software - Level of Complex Form) vs Computer+Intuition [Mental].  Does the Spider automatically know that I just got 4 net hits on my Diffusion of Data Processing?  Does the Spider automatically know that I just got 0 net hits on my Diffusion of Data Processing?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (05:56:03/05-30-15)

A) quickened spells exist in the physical world and affect things that don't disappear from the physical world
B) quickened spells exist in the astral plane and affect things that don't disappear from the astral plane
C) quickened spells carry other penalties, such as making a mage really easy to spot from the astral plane - this would be a doubly bad penalty for a technomancer, given that discretion and hiding are the hallmarks of a good hack
D) they don't have to reboot.  When you reboot your device or persona, it's gone.  As in, does not exist.

Your Logic doesn't really hold. An icon is an icon; Regardless if your deck is on or off, or if your commlink is on or off, or if your AR or Fully in. Something can could easily continue to exist in the matrix without your persona or in your computer without being active.

Virtual property is still property, I mean they just sent the guy who invented that Silk Road away for life over 18 million in bit coins.  It doesn't get more real then that.

But the more important question is how does this line of reasoning assist the Techno Feed back concept?

I'm not purposing techno quickening, however there is no reason, something similar couldn't be written up. Should a CF that it would be worth using it with come along. It could easily have all the same issues that quickened spells have including the risk of disruption.

But I think there are more interesting lines of development to pursue.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (10:16:31/05-30-15)
Something that could be cool as well is taking some of the echos and expanding on them. Like for example we got mathmagician, who people say encryption/decryption is not something in 5th... (Its not in fifth like it is in 4th, true. But at the same time there are qualities like Analytical, which also involves breaking cyphers (decrypting) )

Any case.. What about a new quality that could expound on this whole smart calculator thing, where you can use something like Mathematics or Logic or something to figure out the trajectory of all the guns and weapons and stuff?

Then like further expound upon this concept that Technomancers are capable of processing large amounts of data faster than anyone else, So the qualities for Technomancers could allow them to pull of dodging attacks, because they processed all that trajectory before hand.

Or do things like River Tam in Serenity where she uses the power of math to calculate how to shoot her gun?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (19:42:55/05-30-15)
Lot'sa good ideas here!
I'd like to subscribe to the school of thought that Technomancers need more unique things.
There's probably a bunch of rules that say "You can do either or" - Maybe a Technomancer can do both?
Or rules that say failure has X consequences, but maybe a TM can alleviate them somehow?

F.Ex. Normally a Drone can run it's own autosoft, or grab them from an RCC. A TM could infuse a drone with an Autosoft despite it running it's own softs.
TMs could weave a temporary CF that hides sleazy failures and attack successes.
Another option would be Persona mimicry:
False positives could protect a TM from being taken out by a single grey IC, after all, they take stun from both matrix- and biofeedback damage.
Alternatively, allowing a technomancer to simultaneously be online in several devices.
Gaining a real world bonus in combat is obviously also a great idea, so I support everything said that way already.
Also +1 for a free wrapper for TMs.

All that said, I'm sort of missing an option for a TM Adept equivalent.

As for fluff: Well, there's really... not much so far, so any good stories, explanations, etc. is welcome. Looking forward to that, in any case.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Beta-Max on (21:31:03/05-30-15)
Widgets back in fourth were little 8 hour time limit Tools that a TM could spin up. one of them they could do was RAM which sustained a complex form for them. Widget Crafting was an advanced Echo
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (10:52:18/05-31-15)
Another thing I remembered... My technomancers particularly like drugs, as they can use them with an autoinjector to basically load "programs" at a moments notice

Perhaps some more drugs could be included with this book? Maybe even a quality or two for resisting the addiction?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (14:15:01/05-31-15)
I'm not sure on the drug thing Trisk, it opens the door to a lot of mess. It brings in a lot of other questions, do we really want to add addict to the list of negative phrases synonyms with technomancer?

I'd prefer to keep it focused on CF's and expanding out of the box options.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (14:27:13/05-31-15)
Drugs seem like a better fit for Chromed Flesh, similar to how Augmentation covered advanced medical rules in SR4. Considering the trend of 5th to do away with some of those advanced rules, however, that's no guarantee, obviously...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: LordGrizzle on (15:40:54/05-31-15)
One thing I always wanted for Technos would be an echo that actually emulates Wired Reflexes. Reasoning: Every other archetype has ways to obtain more passes in the meat without having to sacrifice too much (Street Sams get Wired Reflexes, Adepts get Improved Reflexes and Magicians get Increase Reflexes) but the only way for a Technomancer to obtain more meat-passes is to sacrifice essence. While yes, his strengths should lie within the matrix I still don't think it would be too much to ask for them to also become a bit more capable in the meat world, should they desire that.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (16:21:34/05-31-15)
I'm not sure on the drug thing Trisk, it opens the door to a lot of mess. It brings in a lot of other questions, do we really want to add addict to the list of negative phrases synonyms with technomancer?

I'd prefer to keep it focused on CF's and expanding out of the box options.

Just who is giving the list of negative phrases synonyms with Technomancers? Players or NPCs?

Cause there is one drug already that is Prized by Technomancers. Psyche. Mages like it too. Mages also have one specifically for them Deepweed. Mages also have focus addictions.

Then there is hot-sim VR that Technomancers have. Or even normal VR for deckers. Then there is BTLs, which Technomancers don't typically get into, but often deckers and riggers sure as heck do. And skill wires too.

The main Thing a Technomancer does is often addicting. (Hot Sim VR) so.. I really don't see much of a change for one or two drugs to slip in, perhaps unique drugs specific to only technomancers, like Deepweed to mages. Or something to help them with no becoming a burn out from going into VR all the time.



I belive a book would run something like this..

1. Introduction
2. Short Story of a Technomancer doing stuff.
3. Qualities for Technomancers (Should be short, 2-3 pages of qualities at most)
4. Complex forms and CFs in use
5. Echos/Advanced Echos, along with a little more on submersing
6. Sprites, Sprite usage, New Sprites
7. Spending Nuyen on stuff.

Something kinda like that. If drugs were included they would go in chapter 7.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Beta-Max on (19:59:05/05-31-15)
Trisk,

I don't mind the drug thing, though you did mention a peeve of mine. I still have issue with TM's being able to be addicted to hot sim. They can't EVER experience cold sim, so it just seems odd to me that they can become addicted to something they've ALWAYS experienced that way. Thats like saying you're addicted to the cold by walking outside when you've always lived in northern Alaska (poor analogy i know...but its been a long day)

I'd like to see integrated into your little layout Trisk of ways that TM's can interact or act as some of the other archetypes. With Cha being a need for TM's the way they are for few other characters, ways and tricks that make a TM a UNIQUE face might be interesting.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (20:11:23/05-31-15)
Well, people can be addicted to cinnamon or soykaf.
You'll also adapt to weather over long more than you'd think.

While I don't thing TMs need drugs, fluffwise, it's actually a nice idea.
There was that story of a concert for awakened, why not have something similar for TMs?
An Experience that only they can get into? Might as well add recreation based on resonance. ^^

Oh, while I'm at it, a suggestion for a quality:
Being able to detect the 'tone' of an ingoing message nearby without reading it/having access to it.

Being able to affect shielded/wireless off devices by using resonance to form a virtual datalink would also be neat. ;D
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (20:48:26/05-31-15)
Trisk,

I don't mind the drug thing, though you did mention a peeve of mine. I still have issue with TM's being able to be addicted to hot sim. They can't EVER experience cold sim, so it just seems odd to me that they can become addicted to something they've ALWAYS experienced that way. Thats like saying you're addicted to the cold by walking outside when you've always lived in northern Alaska (poor analogy i know...but its been a long day)

I'd like to see integrated into your little layout Trisk of ways that TM's can interact or act as some of the other archetypes. With Cha being a need for TM's the way they are for few other characters, ways and tricks that make a TM a UNIQUE face might be interesting.

Well first thing you have to ask yourself.. Do Technomancers actually live their lives in VR? When a Technomancer goes walking down the street is he in VR?

Sadly, the answer is no. Remember Hot sim and Cold Sim are both addicting. Hotsim just a little more so.

In your example about getting addicted to the cold because you live up in Northern Alaska, What this would be to a Technomancer is actually AR. They don't get addicted to AR (usually. There was some qualities in the past that were AR addictions, like checking your face book status constantly) HSVR in this case would be jumping into an ice flow, and rather than dieing of hypothermia, you become Mr Freeze, where getting out of that ice flow is now too freeking hot.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (03:37:11/06-01-15)

Just who is giving the list of negative phrases synonyms with Technomancers? Players or NPCs?


The Cycle Runs something like, designers write Books which feed player impression, Impression feeds character creation and character reaction, long trends in character creation and reaction shape game perception or trends in play, which feed back to the game designers whom write more books.

As we are in the feed back step of this process, it's time to put the best foot forward, Drug use is far from a universal constant, there are those whom feels it's a risk worth taking and there are those whom do not. Addiction is a dangerous a problem for those whom are resonance or magic based, not to mention the professionalism issues they raise.

Also as was pointed out Drugs tend fall into the augmentation books, as memory serves

There are plenty of great things i'm sure we can agree on, and that could be discussed at length.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (07:25:09/06-01-15)

I just...  Please actually address and try to change what problems TMs have and give them some love.  Please?  Pretty please?  After Data Trails being on the horizon since the game came out and then this crap just getting left out...  I really don't have any belief this book will do even half of what it needs to do.  So my cynical side just says "Whatever, it's not like the whole forum worth a feedback will ever get used to find out what the game needs."
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: prionic6 on (03:23:55/06-02-15)
The character creation chapter in the core rulebook has a technomancer named James. The way his living persona is calculated is wrong - everything is corresponding mental attribute +2, but I think that could be a leftover from an old way to calculate those values. I think having that +2 would really free up some important resources for a freshly created technomancer.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (05:49:23/06-02-15)
I think mesh reality is a great point when it comes to dronomancers:
Combining that with yet another echo or CF or whatever it is TMs do to do these things, a Technomancer could jump into a device and still have an action in the real world. Like hotsim + Control of your legs and a little "AR"-window in your VR, so you can walk behind your drone and take cover.^^
Sometimes it's not about giving the hacker a reason to be with the team, but the option.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Miri on (06:21:55/06-03-15)
This one is going to sound a bit odd, but I don't think I have seen any official comment about it anywhere.

Page 251 Core book, Threading says that a TM can Thread a CF up to his Resonance x3.  Is that really correct?  Can a Resonance 6 TM Thread up a Level 18 Resonance Spike and then try to soak 18 Fade?

Also, why are TMs limited to a max of Resonance x2 for known complex forms?  (Page 252 core book, Resonance Library).

What happens to the temporary matrix condition boxes granted to a device/persona that gets buffed by the Redundancy CF?  Does the device take damage on those boxes first and when the CF is no longer being sustained does the damage disappear into the Resonance?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (17:14:34/06-03-15)
Oh, I think this has been said before but I want to restate it for effect.

TMs need ways to make use of the cyberprograms!  Many of them are basic functions that for deckers, are no big deal because it's only 250¥ at the most for one.  But because they are programs, technomancers miss out on some seriously powerful options, like Baby Monitor or Signal Scrubber, and they are incapable of dealing biofeedback damage because they can't get Blackout or Black Hammer.  Cat's Paw is another example of "Why does this need a program?".  It's now something no TM can do...

And keep in mind I am purposefully ignoring the Resonance Program echo, because under no circumstance is using a Submersion to buy what is normally 250¥ and exchangeable acceptable.  It just isn't.

Technomancer abilities should not all be Complex Forms or Echoes.  Give them things like Enhancements.  Simple one-time Karma purchases!  For basic, mid-power abilities that have no scaling.  This is what Skinlink could have been!  This will be what the old one-point CFs in 4th can be.  Simrig and Smartlink, for instance.  This is something so obvious and so necessary and so easy to implement!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Novocrane on (20:30:17/06-03-15)
So ... would you support the idea of making Resonance Program a slot, rather than a wetwired program?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (20:36:43/06-03-15)
For me, I would even take something where you have a one time resonance program thing. Sure you might start off without the programs, but the more you submerge the more powerful it becomes, eventually allowing you to even overcome the Deckers.

Something where you submerge once, get a program for each level of submerssion you've got. Then each level after that you get another program. This one time per program is crazy harsh, and its not just this echo, but like every technomancer echo. Not one of them so far upgrades with a higher resonance.

some of the things I'd have loved to have seen as well is take the Sleeze Echo - We'll call it silent runner.

1 sleeze per X resonance levels. In addition whenenver someone assesses you, you gain something like the mundane masking ability. Kinda annoying to me, that a Mage can just go "Yep. He's a technomancer." with a high enough assensing, and Technomancers can't really do anything back or against it.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Pixie on (01:00:20/06-04-15)
Firebug, with all due respect I disagree with your assessment that TMs should be able to use cyberprograms.  They're not deckers, and it's pretty clear from all the dev talk that I've seen that there is no intention of making TMs into "reskinned deckers."

The functionality that you're describing with biofeedback damage, baby monitor, etc. would be pretty easily worked into the existing systems.  Have a sprite that can act as a baby monitor, have an echo that allows you to choose to add biofeedback damage.  I'm not saying that you're wrong in your reasoning, I'm just saying that if those things were to be implemented, there are better ways than "let TMs use cyberprograms."

There are 26 cyberprograms listed in the core book.  12 of these add to limits or otherwise duplicate things that technomancers are already capable of handling.  Limits aren't often reached by many tables, so the really useful programs are those that increase dice pools or provide some other benefit (like biofeedback damage).  Data Trails added 16 new cyberprograms.  Of them, 7 of them are increases to deck attributes (aka: limits).  Most cyberprograms are utile only in specific circumstances, whereas complex forms and sprite powers are utile in a wide variety of circumstances.

So that means that of 42 programs, 23 are really unique to deckers and add some nifty functionality.  To be fair, I'm including some programs that I'm sure will have their functionality added to technomancers at some point (Hitchhiker, Nuke-from-Orbit, etc.).  If you opened all of those programs up to technomancers, and they had access to Complex Forms and echoes, it would be an all-out fiasco as the fans of deckers cried foul.

Rather, I think it's better to try to find the functionality that really adds to the experience of being a hacker and utilizing the new Matrix, and duplicate/provide alternatives for those specific functions.  By providing similar effects, you end up with something akin to that "reskinned decker" that I was talking about.  So alternatives that have wider-ranging functionality are, in my opinion, the better option.

However, that said, Firebug has a great point about some of the really useful cyberprograms.  Biofeedback can be huge, as can Defuse and Baby Monitor.  Some of the programs are just nifty to have around, like Evaluate and Fly on a Wall.  I'd suggest strongly trying to emulate the functionality of those cyberprograms by using echoes, complex forms, and sprite powers.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (01:56:31/06-04-15)
Actually, right now, all those programs are already opened up to a technomancer thought he Resonance Program Echo.

The problem is just how late you get it, and how much it costs to get them. A Decker can pick up all those programs easily, switch through and load them, allowing him to be highly flexible early on. This flexibility continues through the game as they get more slots.

The problem with Technomancer's ability is that it costs one submersion per program. So thats 13+ karma per thing you want to add, and its very small effects, that do eventually add up, but that eventually starts costing an already karma starved character even more karma.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Pixie on (02:41:19/06-04-15)
Actually, right now, all those programs are already opened up to a technomancer thought he Resonance Program Echo.

The problem is just how late you get it, and how much it costs to get them. A Decker can pick up all those programs easily, switch through and load them, allowing him to be highly flexible early on. This flexibility continues through the game as they get more slots.

The problem with Technomancer's ability is that it costs one submersion per program. So thats 13+ karma per thing you want to add, and its very small effects, that do eventually add up, but that eventually starts costing an already karma starved character even more karma.

That's a great point, Trisk.  I'd like to see the option to purchase echoes without having to submerge, similar to how mages can purchase metamagics without requiring initiation.  There are limits to this, naturally.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (03:33:24/06-04-15)
We already know that with lots of Karma Technos can be very effective hackers, pile up enough echos, and they can do some impressive things. But that's not really that useful or interesting. I do agree it is germane to the conversation, but the problem isn't the very top end, its the bottom end.
Techno using programs doesn't solve the issue of techno's being ineffective at starting points. Where deckers can simply pickup cyberware to give them some decent combat effectiveness Techno cannot, that issue is the one that concerns me.

Things like the recent pain editor echo, is really an interesting examples its both a step in the direction and a step in the wrong. It's an echo that effects meat world for which i approve. But taking a class that probably can't afford a decent body or any of the other standard methods of raising health levels, that also potentially takes damage using core abilities, and then take away there ability to track health levels seams like total madness to me.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: khevtol on (04:35:02/06-04-15)
This is tangential, but I would really like to see AI being able to be technomncers/access resonance. An AI technomancer is a really cool concept especially with the history of deus, and making it happen would rock.

So far as pure technomancers, I will add more tomorrow, but I would love to see gear and buyables for technomancers. Perhaps electronics that shouldn't logically work, but give technomancers some utility in meatspace, or things to get to give a house better signal, or better resonance access. Services from AI or technomancy groups that aid you...etc.

//will edit for spelling and add more things tomorrow
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (07:12:19/06-04-15)
We already know that with lots of Karma Technos can be very effective hackers, pile up enough echos, and they can do some impressive things. But that's not really that useful or interesting. I do agree it is germane to the conversation, but the problem isn't the very top end, its the bottom end.
Techno using programs doesn't solve the issue of techno's being ineffective at starting points. Where deckers can simply pickup cyberware to give them some decent combat effectiveness Techno cannot, that issue is the one that concerns me.

Things like the recent pain editor echo, is really an interesting examples its both a step in the direction and a step in the wrong. It's an echo that effects meat world for which i approve. But taking a class that probably can't afford a decent body or any of the other standard methods of raising heaths, that also potentially takes damage using core abilities, and then take away there ability to track health levels seams like total madness to me.

Well, you can turn on and off the pain editor. Its not something that has to stay on all the time. And if thats not good enough, a biomonitor will allow you to know your current health status. My Technomancers tend to forgo all other physical stats besides body.

Also, Willpower increases stun track. So.. if they're increasing their will, they'll have a higher stun track. (Hence again, why I stress the importantness of willpower)

In addition to that, the ability to turn off those wound modifiers allows you to heal faster. (along with the point of will power it gives while its on.)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (07:16:43/06-04-15)
Actually, right now, all those programs are already opened up to a technomancer thought he Resonance Program Echo.

The problem is just how late you get it, and how much it costs to get them. A Decker can pick up all those programs easily, switch through and load them, allowing him to be highly flexible early on. This flexibility continues through the game as they get more slots.

The problem with Technomancer's ability is that it costs one submersion per program. So thats 13+ karma per thing you want to add, and its very small effects, that do eventually add up, but that eventually starts costing an already karma starved character even more karma.

That's a great point, Trisk.  I'd like to see the option to purchase echoes without having to submerge, similar to how mages can purchase metamagics without requiring initiation.  There are limits to this, naturally.

I didn't know mages could pick up metamagics without initiation. I do know that several of their metamagics though do get strong each time they submerge, but they don't have to keep selecting the same one over and over again to make it more powerful. Like Centering gives a drain resistance increase equal to Initiation Grade.  So after doing just one initation, they've got that. Then they could go and pick up masking or quickening or some other ability and their Centering continues to keep increasing.

Though, I do know with centering, after they get it, they can get centering foci to further boost its power.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (07:43:27/06-04-15)
In addition to that, the ability to turn off those wound modifiers allows you to heal faster. (along with the point of will power it gives while its on.)
Point of contention: wound modifiers do not apply to natural healing tests.

And to the OP:
I just realized that you absolutely can dramatically change what is given in core, if you want to. It's called Optional Rules, and they've been used in the past to dramatically change the way the game works.

So I'm hereby officially putting in my request for some of the changes suggested here (programs not requiring one echo each, echos that depend on submersion grade, skinlink as a default ability, etc, different fade values) to make it into your book as optional rules. I'm relatively confident that everyone in this thread will love you forever (or at least until the next controversial rule ;) ) if you did that...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: ScytheKnight on (07:50:40/06-04-15)
Except for people who partiake in Missions play as they don't use any optional rules.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: JackVII on (08:02:12/06-04-15)
I didn't know mages could pick up metamagics without initiation.
I am pretty sure they cannot, unless I missed something in Street Grimoire.

Another option for programs would be to crib the AI cyberprogram rules: Extended Software Test and spend 5 karma per program, although you'd probably have to introduce a program limit to keep it all balanced. It's certainly not great, but possibly a little better than requiring Submersion.

I also do think TMs really need programs or some way to replicate some of the benefits of programs, particularly the ones that aren't just "increase Matrix Attribute/limit for test by X". Just the Browse program, for instance, provides a huge difference between a Decker and a TM when it comes to data searches.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (08:12:26/06-04-15)
Except for people who partiake in Missions play as they don't use any optional rules.
Can't win 'em all. The writers have already stated in this post that they won't (or can't) change core, so Missions players are screwed anyway. But that doesn't mean they can't include Optional Rules for the rest of us who don't play missions...

JackVII
I'd agree with that assessment. At least then Technomancers would be less screwed than currently on the program front. And I wholly agree that the lack of a Browse program is a great example of how versatile Deckers can be right out of the gate while Technomancers lag behind.

Technomancers went from being Matrix gods (no pun intended) in SR4 to the proverbial red headed stepchild of the Matrix in 5th, and while I appreciate the efforts of the writers of this supplement I really don't have high hopes that it'll be enough...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (08:49:24/06-04-15)
In addition to that, the ability to turn off those wound modifiers allows you to heal faster. (along with the point of will power it gives while its on.)
Point of contention: wound modifiers do not apply to natural healing tests.


Where is that stated? The only time wound mods don't apply has been damage resistance tests that I've seen.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Pixie on (10:32:08/06-04-15)
I didn't know mages could pick up metamagics without initiation.
I am pretty sure they cannot, unless I missed something in Street Grimoire.

If you pick up a school for initiation, such as Psychometry, you can pick up all the metamagics, rituals, and enchantments that are part of that school without having to re-initiate.  This is what I'm referring to, which would be a great option to see for technomancers as well.  Putting the advanced echoes and such into schools or blocks, then allowing the technomancer to pick up all the echoes, advanced echoes, etc. from that block.  I'm pretty sure Namikaze was talking about something very similar in his technomancer house rules thread.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: JackVII on (10:45:11/06-04-15)
If you pick up a school for initiation, such as Psychometry, you can pick up all the metamagics, rituals, and enchantments that are part of that school without having to re-initiate.  This is what I'm referring to, which would be a great option to see for technomancers as well.

Unless the Magical Arts sidebar has errata, that doesn't appear to be true for metamagic.
Quote from: SG, p.139
METAMAGICS
These metamagics are only available to those who initiate into
this school of magic. If more than one metamagic is available, the
magician must perform the initiation process, including the Karma
and time cost, to learn each one.

Also, the last sentence of the last paragraph of the Introduction section on the same page.
Quote from: SG, p.139
For each new metamagical technique, however, the magician will need to initiate to the next grade to gain that new metamagic.
Amusingly, the second to last sentence completely disagrees with the sidebar about rituals and enchantments.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Pixie on (11:35:08/06-04-15)
All I can say, JackVII is that you should look for posts by Giabraltar.  He clarified these points.

And I'd rather not derail the thread any further.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (11:57:31/06-04-15)
In addition to that, the ability to turn off those wound modifiers allows you to heal faster. (along with the point of will power it gives while its on.)
Point of contention: wound modifiers do not apply to natural healing tests.


Where is that stated? The only time wound mods don't apply has been damage resistance tests that I've seen.
Healing, page 205 under both First Aid and Medicine. Wound modifiers are explicitly stated to apply to tests made when actively (i.e. using the first aid or medicine skills) healing, but not when being healed by other (uninjured) personnel or when healing naturally.

Quote
First Aid can only be used if you have a medkit (even if you do not currently have supplies for it), and it may only be applied within 1 hour of when the damage was taken. Roll a First Aid + Logic [Mental] (2) Test, applying appropriate modifiers from the Healing Modifiers table. (Characters using First Aid on themselves or others must also apply their wound modifiers to the test.)

Quote
The character makes a Medicine + Logic [Mental] Test; apply appropriate modifiers, including wound modifiers if a character is applying the Medicine skill to her own wounds.

Not to take this too off topic, but I thought attribute-only tests were excempt from wound modifiers? Things like resisting certain social tests (willpower+charisma), resisting spells (willpower+logic), etc.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: JackVII on (12:02:54/06-04-15)
I found Giabraltar's post about it. Here's the link: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17274.msg305529#msg305529 and a few pertinent quotes:
Quote
For most schools, this basically means you pick a specific metamagic from that school (the one that's listed as a prerequisite) as your metamagic for that Initiation. Characters can further initiate to gain additional metamagics within that school if they have picked up the prerequisite metamagic.
Quote
Arts such as Advanced Alchemy, Advanced Ritual Spellcasting, and Advanced Spellcasting list several metamagics with no prerequisite requirements. This means that when they first initiate they can choose either metamagics.
Reading it, it's pretty clear (to me) that you have to initiate for each metamagic you pick up. While this is only tangentially related to the topic, the suggestion to have TMs mimic a mechanic that doesn't exist is, I feel, pertinent.

With that said, I do agree that TMs should be able to improve their capability to do interesting things in the Matrix outside of Submersion. So we can probably leave it at that without drawing a comparison to something that may not exist.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (09:36:55/06-05-15)
Two big Wishes:

1. More Echoes! Look at the Echoes from 4th Editions "Unwired"-Rulebook. Stuff like Multiprocessing,  Mesh Reality, Biowires, Acceleration...
This Stuff was neat, and a real Gamechanger for TMs in 4th Edition.

2. Better Complex Forms! The current ones are really underwhelming: The Drain Values are too high and most of the Effects aren´t that special. Take the hint from the numerous complaints and revise the existing Drain Values (more a thing for an Errata, but still...) and, more important, make the new Complex Forms feel really special. Don´t compare the effects of Threading just to equivalent Matrix Actions, but also to magic spells: In a high-tech environment, a TM should feel almost like a Mage. Examples/Suggestions:

- A CF that hampers Wireless Weaponry like Smartguns, Drones or Guided Missiles against a target, adding Defensive dice (or scatter dice).
- A CF that makes the TM or his target invisible to wireless Cameras, Cybereyes etc, almost like an Invisibility Spell. Think about the "Laughing Man" from the anime "Ghost in the Shell".
- A CF that forces visible/known devices into Wireless, making the ol´ "shut everything off"-Tactic  less reliable against Technomancers.

Sounds too strong? Think about it that way: while Hackers can get Augmentations without really hampering their Matrix abilities (or even be  an actual Adept or Mage), TMs have very few options in meatspace. Giving them "Spell-like" CFs with higher meatspace-usability as a compensation would be just fair. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (09:47:45/06-05-15)
Also: Paragons!

Paragons, Paragons, Paragons!

Paragons.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (10:56:49/06-05-15)
Actually, right now, all those programs are already opened up to a technomancer thought he Resonance Program Echo.

The problem is just how late you get it, and how much it costs to get them. A Decker can pick up all those programs easily, switch through and load them, allowing him to be highly flexible early on. This flexibility continues through the game as they get more slots.

The problem with Technomancer's ability is that it costs one submersion per program. So thats 13+ karma per thing you want to add, and its very small effects, that do eventually add up, but that eventually starts costing an already karma starved character even more karma.

That's a great point, Trisk.  I'd like to see the option to purchase echoes without having to submerge, similar to how mages can purchase metamagics without requiring initiation.  There are limits to this, naturally.

It's not that I want all cyberprograms to be available to technomancers, exactly.  What bothers me is that there's a lot of cyberprograms that give access to otherwise basic functions that TMs cannot do because of that, without using up a submersion just for one of them, when it's clear that the programs were designed to be cheap and easily accessible, seeing as every decker I have seen begins play with all of them.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (11:25:11/06-05-15)
I have some ideas for complex forms, but I don't want to say them because I don't want the freelancers to not use them just because I mentioned them.

But a complex form that is  equivalent to analyze device, that doesn't have to deal with object resistance, and can be combined with diagnostics, but maybe be more specific to the device in question. That'd be very thematic.

Or maybe a complex form that can affect meat world skills.

Allowing the TM to start to step on the toes of adepts, street sams, and faces, is not something I'd be against.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (11:56:24/06-05-15)
Some mixed issues:

1. According to the Core Rules, TMs don´t get the +2 Bonus from Hot Sim on Resonance Abilites. Why not? TM Hot Sim is described as a "meditative State", so shouldn´t it also boost Resonance?

2. The Skinlink Echo is all nice ´n fair, but there should be another way of getting a direct connection. Let TM "channel" their Powers through a Trode Net + Data Cable (or even a Datajack if they want to lose Essence), without needing any Submersions and additonal Karma.

3. The new (and absolutely terrific!) Deep Dive rules state that TMs can use their Powers during a Deep Drive. Please offer some examples for this. How do Sprites and CFs look and feel in the Foundation?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (12:08:31/06-05-15)
First off it makes no difference if this becomes mission legal or not, the point is to make the techno archetype playable, if doing so precludes it being in missions then such is life. But Bull is very reasonable if what is released works and doesn't break the game I'm sure he would include it.

On the metamagic outside initiation, I don't recall anything about it, and I would like to see a Karma cost of just a metamagic if that is the case.  That said if the devs want to make Echos not linked to Submersion, it might be a workable solution depending on the cost, though it could also be game breaking.
 
DeathStrobe if you have ideas put them up, anything we suggest is all to the good. Being concerned about them getting used or not is simply irreverent to the process. We provide all the suggestions we can the Author and the Editors will do what they're going to do.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: khevtol on (16:36:37/06-05-15)
Ok. So what we need here first is a list of the current problems with technomancers. Here is what I came up with.

1. It is an "all in" class: Compared to other "archetypes" technomancers have the least capability to do other roles, as well as the least variation within their ranks.  Here is what I see:

Technomancer:
Types: Sprites for damage, Diagnostics/Machine sprite to help others. You definitely aren't a decker.
Seconadry roles:  gun bunny(machine sprites). You can't get augmentations like a decker without hurting your technomancy skills. You can't swap out programs like deckers, get a direct connection,can't slave devices, can't use programs(one per echo...)  Rigging requires an echo, Barely any roles have...any synergy. You are basically a technomancer and nothing else.

Mage/Awakened:
Types: Various traditions(shaman vs hemeretic), Glass Cannon, Manipulation, Illusion, Shapeshifting, Conjuring, Disabling, Augmented(platelet factories/etc)
Secondary Roles Possible: Shadow(via spells like invisiblity), Adept(Mystic Adept), Shaman(Summon a spirit or two), Face(Shaman already specializes in charisma, and spells like mindprobe ad similar totally help),Medic (heal spell) ....etc etc.

2. It is more vulnerable than: Technomancers seem intended to be the mages of the matrix. However tht analogy doesn't hold as well in practice. The first is because it has lot less interaction with the real world. Yes the matrix is everywhere, but you can shut it off. Hell, runners and companies actively do shut it off on a regulr basis to not be vulnerable to decking. Runners don't normally run around in mana-dead zones to prevent being magic'd at. So a technomancers can't do much besides technomancy, and is easily shut down as well.

3. Skills:Since resonance skills don't actually give you any proficiency in computer things (without an echo), a technomancer has to basically spend twice the points. Half on doing technomancy things, and half on poorly replicating a deckers computer skills. A technomancer with a commlink should not be terribad without an echo or doubling my karma expenditure.

4. Mages have more impact: Mage spells both have more variety, and more impact to meatspace. Sprits can be summoned to screw things up in meatspace. Physical barrier protects you..etc. Mages have the benefit of having the ability to work both on the astral and meatspace with their abilities. Deckers have the ability to take augmentations to do the same. Technomancers are both harmed by augmentations, and have abilities that are only really good on the matrix. It is only slightly better than having a subtype of mage who is only good at astral combat.

5. Technomancers don't...have much identity: When you think technomancer, the first thought people  have is neo from the matrix. However in game, technomancers don't have identity. Adepts have social adepts, kung fu masters, gun bunnies...etc. Mages have Summoning, various spells, traditions, things like blood magic.
Technomancers basically get "like a decker, but without the gear and a few more tricks in the matrix. Oh and the mechanics are basically magic". They don't have anything to call their own.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: khevtol on (16:37:51/06-05-15)
__________
What I think Would improve technomancer design space and improve it:
- Dronomancy! 4e established it as an archtype, but having to get an echo to even consider it is ridiculous. Qualities or technomancer powers that allow you to actually legitimately control drones would be awesome. This would also help with realworld impact. ALlowing them to use the AI thing that lets you take over drones and gear would be damned useful.
- Better Tech compatibility: Technomancers are supposed to be a fusion of man and machine. Why not go back to the otaku and either have an echo or similar that let you ignore the essence cost of augmentations (possibly scaling with submersion grade). A technomancer with a cyberarm is both flavourful and makes sense thematiclly. Tech -fits- better with them.
--This might also lead to an adept thing that lets you get technoadept powers to improve augmentations past their normal grade, or give extra powers. A mancer who can push his cybereyes to display infrared in a pinch without having that capability installed, or being able to improve augmentation ratings temporarily.The drawback to being a technoadept vs a street sam would be that you can only have limited augs (keep at least 3 essence?) but you can make those augs work tons better. Being able to use the AI emulate functionality would be good.
- On that note, powers (not echos) that let the technomancer pump gear ratings temporarily or change functionality would just be cool.  A mancer being able to -pump- a camera to get  bit more resolution out of it or being able give a smartgun system a few more capabilies would be awesome and give a bit more utility.
- Let AI use resonance. It just...makes sense.
- It might be interesting to let technomancers connect their minds to hosts or other gear. Basically having a brain that can send tasks to an expert system or compute cluster somewhere and return with an answer. Mechaically it would be a) a power that let you substitute datasearch/programming for a skill of your choice in return for fading. b) an echo that was essentially skillwires, but more easily swappable with a total rating limit =to initiate grade*something.
- Technomancy specific gear or housing. Let them arrange their house to improve resonance there, or have gadgets that shouldn't entirely work but do anyways via resonance. Gives something to spend Nuyen on.
- Bring back paragons and streams. It gives something to differentiate a technomancer from any other technomancer.giv
- Give ways for the technomancer to mitigate damage/risk of death on the matrix without changing the amount of fading. Part of the drawback of the technomancer is that they risk dying for something that other characters don't. The risk should still be there, but giving the technomancer the ability to hide in the resonance for a bit to avoid matrix damage would really help both differentiate them as well as give them more staying power vs deckers.
- Give qualities (not echos) tht let technomancers use commlinks and similar with their resonance skills.
- Being able to affect devices that are turned off, or force wireless connectivity (risking fading).
- Appearing Invisible to gear (like smartgun targeting systems)
- Interpreting the resonance to be able to affect other logical systems. Corporations are basically computers made out of meat and about as regular. The knowlege of data structures and systems that a technomancer innately has has to be useful somewhere.
- Bonded electronics and gear? Gun foci might actually work here.

I would personally also love qualities for allowing self-reprogramming. Like being able to voluntarily mess with your own neural programming to do things. Also ways to create permanent ...things on the matrix.
____

I apologize if this is a bit rambly or too long. It is off the top of my head , and I didn't take time to edit for stupid ideas or content.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Pixie on (17:26:35/06-05-15)
I have some ideas for complex forms, but I don't want to say them because I don't want the freelancers to not use them just because I mentioned them.

That's absurd.  Why would anyone not use a good idea?  You'd rather not speak up about what you'd like to see and hope that on the off-chance that one of the freelancers is telepathic, they happen to read your mind?

But a complex form that is  equivalent to analyze device, that doesn't have to deal with object resistance, and can be combined with diagnostics, but maybe be more specific to the device in question. That'd be very thematic.

I think Object Resistance makes sense to keep in an "Analyze Device" for TMs.  But I'd probably halve the effect, since TMs are far more likely to use the ability on technology than they are on relatively simple things.

Or maybe a complex form that can affect meat world skills.

Allowing the TM to start to step on the toes of adepts, street sams, and faces, is not something I'd be against.

I agree that TMs should have more utility in the meat world, but everything has a price.  If you get good at doing things in the physical world, your Matrix skills should be shoddier than someone who devotes all their time and energy to the Matrix.  Thus, I think having anything that replicates or simulates the powers of an adept, street samurai, face, or mage should be an echo rather than a complex form.  This would force players to make hard choices, which is exactly what SR5 is all about.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (19:06:16/06-05-15)
Alright, I guess I'll share then.

I want a smartlink complex form. You thread it on to a smartgun and it doesn't just give you all the bonuses of smartlink, it gives you every net hit as a +die to shooting with the smartgun. Basically acting as a super smartlink. It's balanced by fading and by needing to sustain it, but can allow a TM to toss more dice than a Street Sam at shooting tests.

I want an empathy complex form. Same basic premises, but not on a device. Basically the TM emulates or connects to a bunch of facial recognition services through resonance and every net hits gives the TM +die to all social tests. Or possibly make the complex form based off of the skill.

Would probably make more sense to have a skillsoft complex form, that can be used with any skill in the game. Once again balanced by fade and sustaining, but with enough hits and with the smartlink CF, a TM can instantly become a Street Sam.

A linklock complex form.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Kincaid on (19:13:31/06-05-15)
Yikes.  I'm not sure how you'd balance more dice to shoot than a Sam, roughly the same number of dice to chat as a face, and essentially all the skills ever in a single archetype.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Novocrane on (19:23:22/06-05-15)
Yikes.  I'm not sure how you'd balance more dice to shoot than a Sam, roughly the same number of dice to chat as a face, and essentially all the skills ever in a single archetype.
The only thing I can imagine is something like Spotter for AIs, but that doesn't help the TM directly.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (19:25:13/06-05-15)
Well, they currently can't do anything very good, so might as well make them a jack of all trades. Anyway, they'd have to pick up a CF for each skill, which there are already a lot of skills. Take sustaining penalties. They'd need to have good physical attributes if they wanted to be as good as a Sammy/Adept, which currently they are not built to emphasize. And just because you have a lot of dice doesn't mean as much if you are running in to limits all the time. They also will be slower, since they don't have access to meat initiative boosters.

They'd still be terrible compared to a specialist but at least they'd be able to cover every role in a pinch.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (20:34:34/06-05-15)
They can do things okay though.. a lot of the "Technomancer's bad" is the fact that they get stuck after character creation, because of how much karma they need for everything. In the Arms race, everyone else gets up faster and goes forward, while the technomancer is stuck in a Jam.

The second primary issue is the fact that they're ambigious or easily denied some of their abilities by GMs who can't wrap their head around the idea of the magical internet known as the Matrix. Particularly of note is the Machine sprite using Diagnostics. Many GMs feel its cheating to allow a Techno do this for himself (Or provide the bonuses for someone else) because they look at the + number of dice it could give, and how many actions it gives it to, without usually looking at the what was sacrificed to get there. (Especially in light how these same GMs will allow mages do similar things because.. magic.)

Lastly, Along with the karma bottle neck, is just how slow their abilities grow. Like the +1 to matrix attribute echos. The so few complex forms, and such. As well as the general thing were people just don't really touch them, or they can only make 'The one Build' for a technomancer. And there is also the hyperbalancing of the technos as well, were for whatever reason, such as Puppeteer or Editor.



Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Pixie on (00:22:21/06-06-15)
I disagree that TMs need to have a "super smartlink" CF.  First off, the balance of power shifts dramatically in favor of the TM at that point.  Maybe as an echo (or more likely an advanced echo) though.  Still, a TM can already achieve all the bonuses of a smartlink that a street samurai has access to, save the one die bonus from having an implanted smartlink.  One die isn't worth shifting things so heavily in the opposite direction.



I do think that facial recognition software and empathy software from 4th edition were some of my favorites, and I'd like to see them implemented in SR5 somehow.  Again, I don't think an uncapped +die bonus to all social skills is a good way to go about doing that sort of thing.  Still, I do think that something like this is suitable for a complex form.  Perhaps empathy software from 4th edition could be reimagined in some way?  Like a passive bonus to social limit, but the opportunity to trade in that limit for a dice pool bonus?

Example: a TM has an empathy software echo (or perhaps a paragon bonus), which provides his Submersion Grade in bonus to social limits.  This is fine and dandy and all that, but on this upcoming test, he really needs the dice pool bonus.  So he trades in his passive bonus at a 2:1 ratio for extra dice.  In this scenario, the TM has a Submersion Grade of 2.  So he loses the +2 to social limit, but gets +1 dice pool bonus in its place.  This effect lasts until the technomancer reboots his Living Persona, at which point the bonus goes back to being a passive bonus to social limits.



I think there has been some discussion of re-imagining the move-by-wire system from 4th edition, so I'd like to see what the results are of that discussion before going too far into the skillwire emulation discussion.  However, I do think that this has some merit.  I'd probably (again) make the premise of this an echo so that it's permanent, but limited in what skills can be used (only skills that can be trained via the Matrix, for example) and the total dice pool bonus capped at Submersion Grade.  This would allow a TM to load up a bunch of skills at rating 1, or a few skills at a higher rating.  As a Complex Form, I think it's too universally powerful.



A linklock complex form makes perfect sense to me.  Right now, a decker can linklock a technomancer but the technomancer has no such capability.  This is similar to the functionality of the programs that firebug was talking about needing emulation.  Technomancers need a way to utilize biofeedback damage, linklocking, and a few other important abilities.  Like a technomantic equivalent to the hitchhiker program (not as an echo, since we've seen the math on that and programs as echoes are never balanced).
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Novocrane on (00:50:10/06-06-15)
Quote
Still, a TM can already achieve all the bonuses of a smartlink that a street samurai has access to

These wireless bonuses include;

+1 (DNI) or +2 (Cyber) bonus to attack with a smartgun system & weapon
reduction of the 'Wind' Environmental Penalty by one rank
Take Aim bonus per action being both +1 limit & +1 die

I don't agree that a CF able to do these things would be an exceptional shift in the balance of power. TMs are able to do this with smartlinked glasses / contacts / goggles / other already, and a CF would need to be sustained.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (02:31:49/06-06-15)
Not only would it need to be sustained, but fading would need to be soaked.

Say the fading is level + 1, to get on par functionality of +2 dice, they'd thread at level 2 and need to soak 3 fading. Say they have 6 res + 5 will that's 11 dice, so on average, the TM should be able to hit the fading threshold on average, and take -2 to all other actions for sustaining.

But lets say, we have 6 software and 6 resonance, so average of 4 hits. So we thread at level 4. We need to soak 5 fading, which odds are we won't hit. But we do get +4 dice while shooting, and -2 dice to all other actions and probably take 2 stun. That actually sounds too unfair to me. I think the fading will need to be lowered, considering the sustain cost. -2 to all other actions is pretty damn brutal, but the possibility of getting lucky on an edge roll and getting something like +10 dice on shooting tests would be amazing. And that's kind of the point of edge is to do amazing things.

And, there is also the problem if the TM needs to hack his own gun. He'd have to beat his own int + firewall, which could be very problematic as the better his Matrix defense, the worst this bonus is. I don't like the sound of that, but if the TM doesn't slave his gun to anything, it only has a firewall of 2 and makes it easier for a decker to brick it. Which would add a very interesting risk vs reward.

And just because you can shoot better doesn't mean you'll be a great combatant. TMs still have problems with meat initiative, physical attributes, and because of the attributes; dodging. Also, something like improve ability for adepts is even more broken. So I think its fair.



Compare a complex form that increases social dice while sustained vs a mage casting improve charisma or adept's stacking all their powers to be a face. TMs attributes actually synergize well with being a face but they currently require too damn many skills to be viable at it and their complex forms and echos don't synergize with the face role. 6 hacking skills, 3 resonance skills, and 6 face skills. Any TM is going to have a hard time to be a face and hacker, so giving them tools to either hyper focus that or tools to allow them to branch out more is the answer. I do think they should have uncapped bonus dice on being a face with a complex, just so they can focus on being able to be hackers without needing to dump a ton of karma into social skills.



And I don't think any of these should be echos, because there are too many echos that seem mandatory and I'm sure that's just going to get worse. You can only submerge so many times before the cost is so prohibitive that you'll never be able to feasibly do it again. Complex forms should be what gives TMs flexibility not echos. Echos should reinforce the TM's playstyle as an advance option. That's why I think complex form skills is the way to go.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (02:40:47/06-06-15)
There already was a Smartlink CF, and it did just what an implanted smartlink did. Which was and is fine. Combine that with Diagnose in some kind of non-sprite form and you could achieve a decent results. It's not going to shoot better then street sam, who is going to be below the gun adept in terms of pool. But even if you did make a threadable CF that gave significant bonus dice with a firearm, it wouldn't be anything so terrible, first off threading ain't free. You cannot use it to add that much, without taking it on the chin in terms of drain. Second having 15+ dice to pistols does not in anyway make you a first tier combatant in SR5, it take a a lot more then that.

No Techno is gonna have the reaction and agility needed to be a first tier gun fighter, and even if they could get enough bonus dice to begin equaling them in shooting, they still wouldn't have init enhancers, or the body needed to stand up like a first tier combatant. But it could make them effective second tier combatants which is exactly what we want. If you built techno to break this logic they will be terrible hackers, which just shows it could be balanced.

Adding a CF that added to a particular skill could work, it would take a CF slot (Something that I remind you is costed as twice the value of a spell), it would have a drain rating, it's very generic and it would be easy to play test and cost appropriately with fairly minimal effort . Even so it would still not be as powerful as a spell ( Spells which I should point out add to an attribute, which are many times stronger then a skill), regardless it is a decent starting point for a meaningful conversation.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Pixie on (03:11:22/06-06-15)
The problem with requiring a Complex Form to get a boost, only to then have to sustain it, is that you have to get more benefit from it than the sustaining penalty.  Which seems kind of unnecessary.  Some of the benefits to setting these abilities up as echoes are:

1) No sustaining penalty
2) Forcing technomancers to make choices about their "build"
3) There's always a cost to everything

In the last case, it's important to know that Fading and sustaining penalties aren't very substantial costs.  Threading a Complex Form to mimic a smartlink is a great idea, except when you get into the math of it.  First off, you suggested that it gets a flat +1 bonus to dice pool and accuracy per hit.  Assuming the Level is still a limit, that's still a LOT of potential hits.  It's too powerful.  And doing a straight mimic of the functionality of a smartlink is immediately offset by the penalty you get from sustaining the complex form.

If you'll look at my husband's house rules on technomancers, he was talking about adding in the equivalent of enhancements to each submersion grade.  These wouldn't require submersion, but would provide a passive boost for the cost of some karma.  It's a good setup, because it allows for technomancers to make choices about how to build their character, gives them passive benefits similar (in concept) to those that an adept or mage can acquire, and uses an existing mechanic to do all of this.

You're right that echoes are too damn expensive for something as simple as replacing a smartlink.  But if you were to look into adapting the rules for schools of magic into technomancy, you'll find the solution is right there.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (03:33:56/06-06-15)
CFs and Echos should both give the Technomancer flexibility and reinforce the different play styles. Not just one or the other. The biggest issue with most of the Echo's thus far is that their bonuses are small, and none of them scale with Submersion grade

I don't think that Technomancers should be too totally flexible. That would be more Decker route. but they should be able to grow and develop into their own style.

For smart links, I'd actually blend that into the Resonance Program echo, but only after you get that echo to grow with each increase to your submerssion grade. Might not be the easiest way, but it would help make that echo actually useful rather than being a crazy high tax
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Ayslyn on (04:33:49/06-06-15)
I have some ideas for complex forms, but I don't want to say them because I don't want the freelancers to not use them just because I mentioned them.

That's absurd.  Why would anyone not use a good idea?

It's because of potential IP issues.   Some companies are, rightly, a little gun shy over using unsolicited ideas from fans due to the fact that some of those fans occasionally try to lay claim to said ideas and profit from them.   Even if the company didn't use the fan's idea, but had the idea in the works already, they've been taken to court on occasion for IP ownership.    So, to avoid it all together, some companies will nix an idea if a fan publishes it before they can develop a chain of evidence that they thought it up on their own.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (09:18:57/06-06-15)
Choice is not an issue, it is necessary to complete the concept to add those choices, that is the essence of character and build creation.
The sustaining issue will have to be addressed, having smartgun cf that is sustained and costs you the two die you gained to a sustaining penalty just wont due. But there should be plenty of easy ways to address the issue.

I think we all agree Everything has to have a cost and you pay for what you get.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Hobbes on (12:35:20/06-06-15)
Hi, read through this and agree to some degree with most of what was stated.

My own take on Technomancers is here http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20066.msg359187#msg359187

To sum up in one word, Petnomancer.  I'd like to see the following:

1.  Sprites abilities more defined.  Especially teamwork rules and Sprites. 
2.  Care and feeding of Sprites during down time simplified. 
3.  A few words on the RAI of the Diagnostics power.  Does it last forever?  RAW it just goes until you give the Sprite a new order, aka, forever.  Also a bit of clarification on some of the things Diagnostics does and doesn't work on.  Guidelines really.  As it turns out, mechanically, the Diagnostics power is the largest boost Technomancer bring to the group. 
4.  I'd really like to see a Technomancer walk out of Chargen with 14+ dice pools in hacking skills similar to what a Decker can achive without resorting to being a pet class.  Mechanically tricky to do without overpowering the pet class, so some kind of trade off between Compiling and Hacking. 

People like pet classes and Technomancers are a fun way to do that.  But, Technomancers also occupy a thematic role of being magical hackers, and aren't always surrounded by a host of little helpers.  Technomancers need to be, out of chargen, mechanically comparable to Deckers without having to manage a small marching band.  To say nothing of Technomancer "first run blues" since they need a week of down time to get a stack of Sprites built up.

Note, comparable, not Identical. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (12:59:24/06-06-15)
In the last case, it's important to know that Fading and sustaining penalties aren't very substantial costs.  Threading a Complex Form to mimic a smartlink is a great idea, except when you get into the math of it.  First off, you suggested that it gets a flat +1 bonus to dice pool and accuracy per hit.  Assuming the Level is still a limit, that's still a LOT of potential hits.  It's too powerful.  And doing a straight mimic of the functionality of a smartlink is immediately offset by the penalty you get from sustaining the complex form.

I don't want this smartlink CF to increase accuracy at all, that should still be a limiting factor. But as many bonus die as you can get hits on.

It can not be both too powerful and also having to sustain it making it too weak. I thought you didn't take the sustaining penalty if you use actions that specifically uses the CF, but looking through core, that is not the case. That means you'll need to cast at force 4 and get 4 hits to even out with the cyber smartlink. Fade values will need to take that into account. So, since 4 is the default, we want that to be easy to soak fading, meaning a level - 2 fade looks like the answer.

But looking at an equivalent spell mages get, Analyze Device and Increase Attribute, their drain values are Force -3. Those are actually far more powerful and versatile than the Smartlink CF, so we should reduce the smartlink CF more,  level - 4 or 5 seems fair.

Now lets just keep with comparing it to Analyze Device, since this will be kind of similar. The mage needs to deal with object resistance, which is probably 15 dice. The TM will need to deal with hacking the device. The TM rolls software + Resonance [level] vs Will power + firewall.

A hyper specialized mage casts Analyze Device on a smartgun. Rolla 6 spellcasting + 6 magic + 2 specialization + 2 power focus + 2 mentor spirit [5 Force] vs 15 dice. And gets 1 net hit on average. He needs to soak 2 drain and on average passes that.

Our hyper specialized TM casts smartlink CF on a smartgun. Rolls 6 Software + 6 resonance + 2 specialization (and currently doesn't have any other bonuses) [5 level] vs 5 wil + 6 firewall. On average the TM will get 2 hits. This is a wash since sustaining costs the TM 2 dice.

Okay, so its not very viable at chargen. But with the skinlink echo, the TM won't have to worry about fighting his master's firewall, and with more resonance and software skill he'll be able to start to get more net hits to make it more worth wild.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (13:27:08/06-06-15)
The question of how much to add per hit is one that can be solved by play testing, +1 per hit may be to strong, or it may not.  Consider that at +1 per hit you still not looking at that many, there will be limit on the power, and there will be only so many dice in the test, and on top of that skills are max at 12 or 13 with 14 pt quality.  even on the high end say around 20  which isn't a very likely number given the state of starting techno's your basically looking at 6-7 hits, if you assume the techno has pistol skill 6; skill max is still 12, so now you have hit max skill, plus 2-3 agil, and +2 from specialization and you looking at 17 dice. That just isn't a big deal, in terms of sr combat, and that is a very optimistic assumption. The much more likely 12-14 in the pool would net you 3-4 dice, and you'll be looking at something like 14 dice, which is an ok 2nd tier pool.

The accuracy question is simply silly, your not going to push a pool that's going to beat current accuracy let alone augmented accuracy. You could let it augment accuracy all day and it wouldn't matter. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (14:28:14/06-06-15)
One bonus die per hit isn't many?  Sure, until you have using Edge to get seven hits, using it with their Machine Sprite-boosted shotgun and ending up with some 24 dice.  You have to consider Edge being used when you're thinking about balance.  Especially when something can be sustained, meaning you only need to use the Edge once.

I don't think TMs need all of this "let them do a bunch of other roles" stuff...  I just want them to be where they were in 4th, which is "masters of the matrix, but fish out of water in meatspace".  A trade-off that gave them a clear role.  I don't want them to necessarily be simply better than deckers in every way...  But right now, it is almost always the opposite, and they feel like they lack any real niche when they can't rig, can't be the group's matrix specialist, and still have all the drawbacks as if they were as powerful as they should be.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (14:53:34/06-06-15)
If you dropped 2 edge and only managed 24 dice you didn't do very well, Firebug.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (15:09:29/06-06-15)
I don't think TMs need all of this "let them do a bunch of other roles" stuff...  I just want them to be where they were in 4th, which is "masters of the matrix, but fish out of water in meatspace".  A trade-off that gave them a clear role.  I don't want them to necessarily be simply better than deckers in every way...  But right now, it is almost always the opposite, and they feel like they lack any real niche when they can't rig, can't be the group's matrix specialist, and still have all the drawbacks as if they were as powerful as they should be.
This. I support this 100%.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (15:14:01/06-06-15)
One bonus die per hit isn't many?  Sure, until you have using Edge to get seven hits, using it with their Machine Sprite-boosted shotgun and ending up with some 24 dice.  You have to consider Edge being used when you're thinking about balance.  Especially when something can be sustained, meaning you only need to use the Edge once.

I don't think TMs need all of this "let them do a bunch of other roles" stuff...  I just want them to be where they were in 4th, which is "masters of the matrix, but fish out of water in meatspace".  A trade-off that gave them a clear role.  I don't want them to necessarily be simply better than deckers in every way...  But right now, it is almost always the opposite, and they feel like they lack any real niche when they can't rig, can't be the group's matrix specialist, and still have all the drawbacks as if they were as powerful as they should be.


Masters of the Matrix. Not Masters of the VR. There is quite a big difference between the two areas. Perhaps your technomancer might only be good when he's in VR. Other technomancers are good when they are in AR. Both are using the matrix, both are mastering it. Just how they use the Matrix is different.

With the "No man in the Van" ideology that a lot of things are trying to move towards, A technomancer will eventually have to leave the van and join the rest of the group. Having Complex forms, Sprites and other things that use the matrix to boost the Technomancer, like the one they're talking about with the CF of getting a Smartlink implant effect, something that relies on heavy use of the matrix, doesn't make a Technomancer into a street sam. Not in the slightest. It just makes the technomancer good at using the matrix to use the gun. Using a massive amount of cybernetics, now that makes a Technomancer into a street sam.

Even in forth the Smartlink Cf existed. Personally, I'd actually put the Smartlink's effects in the Resonance Program Echo (But only after some of the changes to this echo to make it more than just getting 250 nuyen of thing for 26000+ nuyen worth of karma)

Forth even had a few other things that allowed a Technomancer to bring the effects of the Matrix into the meat space, such as the Skillwire echos and the like.



The Matrix is not something in a small box, contained in the basement of the Technomancer's mother, that connects to other small boxes in other basements and such. The Matrix is everywhere. It surrounds us. Binds us. Connects us. Technomancers do not exist just in VR. The Matrix does not exist just in VR. Its seems to be a common misconception that VR is the only place Technomancers and the Matrix interact, as people tend to forget that Technomancers have AR.

The Matrix penetrates  just about every aspect of life in the sixth world. Sure, there are some areas on the fringes of society that don't have matrix yet. But in the civilized worlds, its there. Watching us.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (15:28:53/06-06-15)
Look it's skill dice, not bonus dice, so even if you edge the casting roll your still capped at 12 or 13 skill. Edge use doesn't break skill  cap.
Which means your never going to get that much benefit from it. The two cases I put forward thread with 20 (which is a well advancd techno), edge the roll to 24 (4 edge), now get 8 hits, 6+8 is 14. So he's getting 12 skill dice, 2 wasted hits. He edges the gun roll goes from 17 to 21 for one shot. Well he spent 2 edge and gained 4 dice. I'm really not impressed. If the guy was edge 6 he would only gained 6 dice, and hit 23 dice for 1 shot. So for his trouble he gets to shoot like a 1st tier combatant for 1 shot, which still isn't even beginning to push the envelop of ranged combatants.

In the more Average case, he edges the casting pull going from 14 to 18, and gets 6 hits, he gets 6 gun skill 6 skill form this, and +2 spec he now shoots at 16 spends another edge goes to 20. He gained a lot more from edging the casting roll, but was still only at 16 dice, not very impressive.

So play all the games with Edge you like it's not going to unbalance this concept.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (15:55:45/06-06-15)
I'd also like to see a jump-in complex form. Give dronomancers some options at chargen. And like my proposed smartlink CF, it gives the jumped-in TM bonus dice to all actions to all drone tests.

You might think this would be even more unbalanced than the smartlink CF, but keep in mind that drones are made of paper, biofeedback on the drone taking damage, sustain penalties and fading cost. Increasing dice pools on all drone tests is very powerful but drones have crappy limits without a Control Rig.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Hobbes on (18:42:10/06-06-15)
Alright, I guess I'll share then.

I want a smartlink complex form. You thread it on to a smartgun and it doesn't just give you all the bonuses of smartlink, it gives you every net hit as a +die to shooting with the smartgun. Basically acting as a super smartlink. It's balanced by fading and by needing to sustain it, but can allow a TM to toss more dice than a Street Sam at shooting tests.

I want an empathy complex form. Same basic premises, but not on a device. Basically the TM emulates or connects to a bunch of facial recognition services through resonance and every net hits gives the TM +die to all social tests. Or possibly make the complex form based off of the skill.

Would probably make more sense to have a skillsoft complex form, that can be used with any skill in the game. Once again balanced by fade and sustaining, but with enough hits and with the smartlink CF, a TM can instantly become a Street Sam.


Machine Sprite Diagnostic power does the Smartgun bit easy, the Social bit with the right armor , and the list of skills in this game that have + dice pool gear has to cover most skills.

Just giving Technomancer's "MOAR DICE4ALLTHEFINGS!!!" probably isn't the right answer unless you build in some kind of stacking limitation. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Hobbes on (18:53:33/06-06-15)
I'd also like to see a jump-in complex form. Give dronomancers some options at chargen. And like my proposed smartlink CF, it gives the jumped-in TM bonus dice to all actions to all drone tests.

You might think this would be even more unbalanced than the smartlink CF, but keep in mind that drones are made of paper, biofeedback on the drone taking damage, sustain penalties and fading cost. Increasing dice pools on all drone tests is very powerful but drones have crappy limits without a Control Rig.

Again, Machine Sprite, Diagnostics = Bonus dice.  Especially on something as obviously techno as a Drone.   

I do like the idea of a Dronomancer Complex Form, or Forms even.  And maybe a specialized kind of Sprite with some Drone specific powers, as it is right now a TM is a terrible rigger at chargen and eventually spends a few dozen Karma to someday become a bad one. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (19:11:46/06-06-15)
I agree, the Machine Sprite is pretty amazing in what it can do to help out the Technomancer with the right piece of gear, they can get a bonus on almost any skill.

The biggest problem with it, ultimately, is just how quick GMs are to deny the use of the machine sprite to anything but hardware tests to repair the object and sometimes not even that. Perhaps in the Technomancer book here, if they went over Technomancer tactics and strategies?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (22:50:52/06-06-15)
Diagnostics doesn't give you smartlink and it can't allow you to jump-in. Making a complex form to handle these tasks gives them a powerful and necessary niche for TMs.

Yes, +dice is boring, but the entire game revolves around that. Its not even overpowered. You make it sound like TMs are already going to step all over the physical combatants if they're allowed to have as many dice as them without any of the other benefits, like high str to stack armor, high dodge, and high meat world initiative.

Okay, here. How balanced is it that a decker can cut his arm off and get a fully custom cyber arm with 9 agi? Are we to assume that if a TM is able to keep up with a decker they also need to cyber up and take a hit to resonance just to be able to shoot a gun? There aren't enough attribute points and skill points for TMs to make good physical combatants. To give them tools to help even the odds isn't unbalanced, but it does give them more options. Which TMs desperately need.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Novocrane on (23:48:06/06-06-15)
Diagnostics doesn't give you smartlink and it can't allow you to jump-in. Making a complex form to handle these tasks gives them a powerful and necessary niche for TMs.

I'm not convinced we need a jump-in CF. Yes, something is needed, but I'm half expecting the answer there to be streams.
IE;- for streams to both limit CFs / echoes / widgets / other and open up advanced options. Possibly for something akin to Beast's Way or Spiritual Way for adepts, where you would gain a mentor spirit at the same time - but with a selection of 'favoured' echoes per stream instead.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Hobbes on (00:19:10/06-07-15)
Diagnostics doesn't give you smartlink and it can't allow you to jump-in. Making a complex form to handle these tasks gives them a powerful and necessary niche for TMs.

Yes, +dice is boring, but the entire game revolves around that. Its not even overpowered. You make it sound like TMs are already going to step all over the physical combatants if they're allowed to have as many dice as them without any of the other benefits, like high str to stack armor, high dodge, and high meat world initiative.

Okay, here. How balanced is it that a decker can cut his arm off and get a fully custom cyber arm with 9 agi? Are we to assume that if a TM is able to keep up with a decker they also need to cyber up and take a hit to resonance just to be able to shoot a gun? There aren't enough attribute points and skill points for TMs to make good physical combatants. To give them tools to help even the odds isn't unbalanced, but it does give them more options. Which TMs desperately need.

Diagnostic's doesn't give you a Smart Link, Smart Link gives you a Smart Link and Diagnostics gives you the bonus dice.  The Cyber version of Smart link gives you one more dice.  Everything else you get from glasses or whatever. 

Decker...Cyberarm... comes down to stats.  Technomancer vs any other specialist is usually short stats.  Technomancers pay a higher price for Augments, and don't have a direct boost like the Magically active characters.  A Technmancer can have just as many dice, qualities, and non-cyber gear as any other character though.  The Diagnostics power will pull a Technomancer to equalish in many cases.  Not to specialized Adept levels but certainly equal to Decker with an SMG.   

The Technomancer's main issue in the meat world, as was stated in this thread, is no initiative boost.  Lightning Reflexes I guess but those have a high opportunity cost. 

I have no complaint about + dice being boring.  I don't find + dice boring.  + dice on top of + dice = potential balance issue.  Play around with a 4 Resonance TM, with 2 levels Synaptic Booster, another point of Augments, and blow off all the hacking skills.  Build like a firearms Adept, except with Machine Sprites and get back to me at how Technomancer's need more dice.  If you blow off the hacking stuff and pile on Combat skills and stats you can build an effective little Combat character.  Weird, but effective.  You're not as good at any one thing as a specialist in that thing, but anything that has a bonus from Gear you've got a nice little pool of dice to throw.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (00:46:50/06-07-15)
@Hobbes

So you create a weird TM with high agility, and synaptic boosters. You have resonance 3, since, ware ate some of your TM powers. You can compile rating 6 sprites, but you only have 9 dice (6 compile + 3 res) to do so. And registering is going to be really problematic since you'll only have 9 dice vs 12 dice. So you'll have to spend edge. Then there is the fading. Compile one on the fly, it takes 2 hits, you soak 4 fading. You roll 3 resonance + 5 wil, 8 dice, so you'll get about 2 or 3 hits meaning you need to take 1P since the sprite is higher then your resonance. Then you need to spend a simple action to command your sprite to run the diagnostic power, and then you need to wait for the sprite to do its task. That doesn't seem viable at all, to need to rely on diagnostics. The opportunity cost is WAY too high and you still end up being a subpar physical combatant while being a terrible hacker and terrible at resonance actions.

You seem to think that TM's are some how good at what they do already, and giving them abilities to be good outside of what they're already okay at means they'll totally break the balance. When in fact mages have WAY more than TMs, have fewer drawbacks, and are more versatile on top of that.

Or is suddenly, spell casting super balanced because being able to set people on fire at range without needing ammo or a ready weapon action while also being able to turn invisible, fly, and make people think jumping off buildings is a good idea is super balanced? All while tied to one skill.

Resonance should be as powerful as magic and just as feared. Currently, you geek the technomancer last, because he's the lowest threat out of the entire team.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (00:51:33/06-07-15)
Diagnostics doesn't give you smartlink and it can't allow you to jump-in. Making a complex form to handle these tasks gives them a powerful and necessary niche for TMs.

Yes, +dice is boring, but the entire game revolves around that. Its not even overpowered. You make it sound like TMs are already going to step all over the physical combatants if they're allowed to have as many dice as them without any of the other benefits, like high str to stack armor, high dodge, and high meat world initiative.

Okay, here. How balanced is it that a decker can cut his arm off and get a fully custom cyber arm with 9 agi? Are we to assume that if a TM is able to keep up with a decker they also need to cyber up and take a hit to resonance just to be able to shoot a gun? There aren't enough attribute points and skill points for TMs to make good physical combatants. To give them tools to help even the odds isn't unbalanced, but it does give them more options. Which TMs desperately need.

Yes, the Machine sprite doesn't give you a Smart link. You can wear one in your glasses like everyone else who isn't cybered up, until you're connected enough with the matrix to get an echo for it. Namely the Resonance Program Echo.

But the current core version does suck. Which is why I think it should scale with your Submersion grade. Every grade you have, you get another program. They're small bonuses but they get to add up. Possibly something along the lines of getting datachips or something that could load another program in your biodeck after getting the submersion for a certain period of time before they burn out or something?

Even if you make it a CF for every single skill, you're still not going to at all get anywhere. A Technomancer can start off with at most, Five free CFs. Then they have to spend 4 karma per CF after that.

One of the two biggest issues with a Technomancer is the fact that they have a very high Karma consumption to begin with. If everything a TM does ends up costing more and more karma, Its not going to go very well at all for TMs.


+dice is more than just boring. And the entire game doesn't just revolve around that. It revolves around identities of the characters. We've got the thing that gives us +dice to skills already as technomancers. They're called Machine Sprites. At most, for skills, the most we'd need to develop after that is a single +dice CF, but it still wouldn't be all that great at all.

Not because it would make the TM overpowered or something, but because ultimately, It would just become a karma tax for playing a TM and ultimately doesn't add to their identity of a runner. They just become that guy who can increase his skills a bit. Such hoopla.

Verses a Technomancer who spends all of his nuyen and time working on his gear, upgrading it, enhancing it, so that when he uses his machine sprites on it, it preforms a helluva lot of enhanced functions. Like a Ballistic mask with Vision Enhancements, A smartlink, even a miniature microphone or something. Then he takes a machine sprite and enhances it... Suddenly you're getting a guy who could be in the Crying masks, and possibly feared because how good he is when he's got his mask on.

Basically what I'm saying is No. A Technomancer doesn't need to cut off his arm for a 9 agi gun arm to keep up. And we don't need a lot of uninspired things to try and help a Technomancer dogidly attempt to keep up in physical combat by attempting to pretend we can do what every else can. (CFs to try and add a few extra skill dice after taking the sustaining penalties.)

I've been working on finding somethings a Technomancer could do while in combat, while still maintaining a high Biodeck stats. Using a melee skill + Intuition you can get a +3 to hit on your next attack against a target. Or using con + cha you can pretend to be hurt to the point that you're no longer a threat and the enemies ignore you so you can shoot them in the back. or Perform + Cha. After making a touch attack, you can use Will vs Will to do Cha + Net hits in stun damage to a spririt (This requires a martial art.)

Honestly, IMHO its things like this the technomancer needs more. Things that don't use karma, but brings the mental stats into physical combat. Yes Mages will be able to use it too. Or even faces. Most of the time Mages will elect lighting  bolts to the face however.

Another possibility is expanding the martial arts thing. Gun Kata as presented in Equilibrium isn't something that is about being the most physically able person. But someone could can run through mathematical equations in the middle of combat to maximize kill radius or some other hooye like that. But its something that could be developed. Especially with the +2 to mental limit for mathematical stuff echo, and analytics.




Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (17:00:13/06-07-15)
I like what you're saying Trisk. The CF skill thing is fairly simple which is why I favor it in many ways. But of course there are flaws with it. Sooner or later someone will point out that you can twist it pretty good by doing it on someone with agi enhanced cyberlimb and then begin pushing the die pools pretty hard. But the concept of a runner who improves their gear by customization is a cool concept, do you have some ideas for mechanics on it? I have been trying to think of something that improves wireless bonuses, the idea being that techno's could passively improve wireless bonuses, both helping them be more effective with wireless bonus gear and add some very useful group utility.

Maybe for the gear improvement thing being something like, invest karma into an piece of gear, get bonus die with it equal to submersion rating or something along those lines. Basically creating some sort of generic techno foci/icon concept, make extra effective by letting your bring it with you as an Icon back into the Matrix. It will take some categorization but it could be doable. 

My goal for the class is to make the weakest class stronger not to add something that makes the stronger classes even stronger. This maybe somewhat internally contradictory but such is life.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (17:51:47/06-07-15)
Well, we do have a few ways of modding up their gear already. Data Trails came out with essentially the way you could do things like turn everything into a fragmentation grenade or even put an agent in your gun.

The Foci thing could work too.. Like a Personalization modification you can add to a device (That doesn't count against the limit of only one modification) to allow a Technomancer to bind to it. What exactly that would do I don't know. Perhaps just increases the Wireless bonus dice a bit or some other effect. And it kinda goes with the idea of the Technomancer being a master of the matrix, so they can use gear better than anyone else.

That could even open up something like being able to bind with objects like cybernetics, and make it so they don't actually hurt his resonance as much as other people would. There is after all the Burn Out's way..
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Hobbes on (21:38:04/06-07-15)
@Hobbes

So you create a weird TM with high agility, and synaptic boosters. You have resonance 3, since, ware ate some of your TM powers. You can compile rating 6 sprites, but you only have 9 dice (6 compile + 3 res) to do so. And registering is going to be really problematic since you'll only have 9 dice vs 12 dice. So you'll have to spend edge. Then there is the fading. Compile one on the fly, it takes 2 hits, you soak 4 fading. You roll 3 resonance + 5 wil, 8 dice, so you'll get about 2 or 3 hits meaning you need to take 1P since the sprite is higher then your resonance. Then you need to spend a simple action to command your sprite to run the diagnostic power, and then you need to wait for the sprite to do its task. That doesn't seem viable at all, to need to rely on diagnostics. The opportunity cost is WAY too high and you still end up being a subpar physical combatant while being a terrible hacker and terrible at resonance actions.

You seem to think that TM's are some how good at what they do already, and giving them abilities to be good outside of what they're already okay at means they'll totally break the balance. When in fact mages have WAY more than TMs, have fewer drawbacks, and are more versatile on top of that.

Or is suddenly, spell casting super balanced because being able to set people on fire at range without needing ammo or a ready weapon action while also being able to turn invisible, fly, and make people think jumping off buildings is a good idea is super balanced? All while tied to one skill.

Resonance should be as powerful as magic and just as feared. Currently, you geek the technomancer last, because he's the lowest threat out of the entire team.

Resonance 4.  You could go with just the two levels of Synaptic booster and go with 5 if you really wanted.  Specialize in Machine Sprites.  You've now got a 12 dice pool.  Until you get your Registering dice pool up you're registering level 4s, not 6s.  So it's 12 vs. 8.  And read Diagnostics.  RAW it literally runs forever.     " the bonus lasts until the sprite drops it or does something else."  It's not difficult to manage.  If you really want to see the character I'll throw it out in the character forum when I can. 

And hilariously you can now run an Agent on any device with the Mods from Data Trail and put a pack of Machine Sprites on the device and let the Agent do the hacking and just tag along.  You can only start with a Rating 4 out of Chargen so, you need a run or two to get the Rating 6.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (01:03:28/06-08-15)
Essence loss not effecting resonance is too dangerous in my opinion. It only takes one point of essence loss, to go from non-effective physicals to highly effective physicals. I can't see it coming out clean.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (01:43:12/06-08-15)
Well, cause you wouldn't be losing the essence either. It wouldn't be a full 100% no loss of course, but something like 10%~20% reduction in the essence loss of the cybernetic that you've gone and done the binding process with. But yeah.. it is difficult to manage. We don't want TM's becoming better street sams than sams either.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Novocrane on (02:03:48/06-08-15)
Quote
Your natural Resonance maximum is your Essence rounded down. Whenever you lose Essence (after character generation), you lose an equal amount of Resonance, rounded up.
What was wrong with that?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (02:26:40/06-08-15)
Resonance 4.  You could go with just the two levels of Synaptic booster and go with 5 if you really wanted.  Specialize in Machine Sprites.  You've now got a 12 dice pool.  Until you get your Registering dice pool up you're registering level 4s, not 6s.  So it's 12 vs. 8.  And read Diagnostics.  RAW it literally runs forever.     " the bonus lasts until the sprite drops it or does something else."  It's not difficult to manage.  If you really want to see the character I'll throw it out in the character forum when I can. 

And hilariously you can now run an Agent on any device with the Mods from Data Trail and put a pack of Machine Sprites on the device and let the Agent do the hacking and just tag along.  You can only start with a Rating 4 out of Chargen so, you need a run or two to get the Rating 6.

Okay, so you're saying a machine sprite, that requires 2 skills at rating 6, requires a nonsignificant amount of downtime to prepare, that can be seen on the Matrix and Data Spiked, and you can never turn off your smartgun ever again, is somehow on par with a complex form that requires 1 complex action and 1 skill, and that this complex form that can only be used on Smartguns is somehow overpowered?

I disagree.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Malevolence on (02:42:17/06-08-15)
Maybe an echo - One with the Machine - that allows you to accept up to 1 essence worth of 'ware with no hit. It could either be taken up to X times (maybe 3) or scale with your submersion grade (again, optionally with a limit). Allowing a TM to eventually take 10 essence worth of cyberware would be unbalancing, so I think that a reasonable limit should be included.


Other ideas I like for improving Technos - either as CFs or echoes or whatever:
- Access devices that are wireless off - this was suggested earlier and I think it certainly makes Technos the feared unknowns that the world thinks they are. It would obviously need some limitation, such as needing to see the device with your actual eyes a la mage targeting restriction.
- Sprite optional powers - Instead of a pilot sprite, maybe one of the optional powers for a Machine Sprite would be Innate Skill (any vehicle skill - including gunnery)
- Changing Resonance Program to a program slot. Either have it increase available slots with Submersion Grade or with Resonance. Programs would have to be pulled from external storage. Maybe even tie it to a mental stat so that it has an upper bound.
- Technos should have the equivalent of baby monitor and wrapper by default. They should also be immune to VR addiction. Since apparently the core rules can't be rewritten, this should be a cheap, Techno only option - maybe a 5 point PQ. Maybe make the wrapper ability tied to a disguise roll.


This is something half formed and far to whimsical, but it might be a cool idea that can be pared down or otherwise ran with to create something cool and balanced. This is simply the extreme that should be avoided, but gives some idea of the flavor. I do not recommend this be used as is unless your game is beyond Pink Mohawk:
- Merge Reality - The Techno can have some of his powers take effect in the meat world. The Resonance bubbles up to our reality, causing Resonance entities in the matrix to take physical form. Sprites become akin to manifested spirits, Resonance powers can do physical damage, and so on (Puppeteer works like Control Actions, Resonance Veil works like Trid Phantasm, and so on). This would need some serious work to balance and would probably have to be an advanced echo, but it would add some limited ability for Technos to be useful in the real world in a way different from Deckers and without having to use guns (though in a way far too similar to mages). Or, conversely (perhaps as another power) you can bring non-Resonance entities into our world so that the Street Sam can pound on it for you. This actually might be better served as something akin to Mana Rifts, where it is something that PCs aren't likely to create on their own.


Lots of other great ideas in this thread as well, but I just wanted to weigh in on these.  Also, I might be a little loopy, so hopefully my entire post isn't just rubbish.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (03:02:31/06-08-15)
Quote
Your natural Resonance maximum is your Essence rounded down. Whenever you lose Essence (after character generation), you lose an equal amount of Resonance, rounded up.
What was wrong with that?

What do you mean?

Resonance 4.  You could go with just the two levels of Synaptic booster and go with 5 if you really wanted.  Specialize in Machine Sprites.  You've now got a 12 dice pool.  Until you get your Registering dice pool up you're registering level 4s, not 6s.  So it's 12 vs. 8.  And read Diagnostics.  RAW it literally runs forever.     " the bonus lasts until the sprite drops it or does something else."  It's not difficult to manage.  If you really want to see the character I'll throw it out in the character forum when I can. 

And hilariously you can now run an Agent on any device with the Mods from Data Trail and put a pack of Machine Sprites on the device and let the Agent do the hacking and just tag along.  You can only start with a Rating 4 out of Chargen so, you need a run or two to get the Rating 6.

Okay, so you're saying a machine sprite, that requires 2 skills at rating 6, requires a nonsignificant amount of downtime to prepare, that can be seen on the Matrix and Data Spiked, and you can never turn off your smartgun ever again, is somehow on par with a complex form that requires 1 complex action and 1 skill, and that this complex form that can only be used on Smartguns is somehow overpowered?

I disagree.

2 skills, that you're typically forced to take. And its only as non-significant as you make six hours to be. Which honestly, isn't that much of time unless your gm is running you through the no-downtime gauntlet of pain. And you can still turn off your gun when you want to. Then you give the command to run diagnostics again. You don't have to wait until you're looking down the sites of a troll with an machine gun to do it.   Also Sprites are only as visible as you make them. Cause you know.. running silent? And wonderful! You spent 3-4 or more complex actions dataspiking the sprite. I've still got the gun. And it still fires bullets.

The problem isn't One or the other. Then problem becomes "And then" As in, you make the sprite, run the diagnostics. Then run this CF taking a minus 2 on all actions, and fade damage and hopefully gaining more than two dice to get the bonus dice to the gun's smart gun system (So you know, you actually benefit from it. Hopefully you don't take any damage along with that!)

And while its limited, CFs can be targeted by other Technomancers. So either way you've got a pretty good chance of eventually losing your buff.

The problem I've got with it the most is it just doesn't really add to the identity of a Technomancer. Its hyperly specialized to work only within a given situation, though a little bit broader than having to single out a specific gun or something, its still way too inflexible.

.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (03:20:00/06-08-15)
. They should also be immune to VR addiction.

I really don't understand the reason why this particular thing comes up so often, when Technomancers can easily live their entire life never really going VR, and sticking to AR. Though one thing I do beleive should be added to this , is the UR should have the same resistance effects of a technomancer resisting VR.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (10:05:51/06-08-15)
Maybe an echo - One with the Machine - that allows you to accept up to 1 essence worth of 'ware with no hit. It could either be taken up to X times (maybe 3) or scale with your submersion grade (again, optionally with a limit). Allowing a TM to eventually take 10 essence worth of cyberware would be unbalancing, so I think that a reasonable limit should be included.

How about a Resonance required 14 or so point Quality "One with the Machine" Allows you to accept 1 essence worth of cyber-ware/bioware with no loss of resonance. You still take the all the other Negatives relating to essence loss ie social limit and healing tests, etc.

This would go a very long way to solving the techno starting viability problem. Making it a quality makes it available at creation, and restricts it from being taken more then once, as well as attaching reasonably high resource cost. It won't make technos super combatants but it will give them reasonable options.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Malevolence on (14:38:32/06-08-15)

@Triskavanski - They could, but how likely is it that they would? I'm pretty sure entering the Resonance Realms and Submerging requires entering VR. I suppose you could have that be the only times they use VR in order to reduce the risk, making the risk then more comparable to a mage using foci, but it basically means that a unique part of your character - the built in hot-sim module all Techno's have - is all but unusable. You might as well build an AR decker - in which case Mages and Adepts make better AR deckers.


Hot-Sim simsense only has a threshold of one, so the risk of addiction is pretty low and a PC would likely edge out of a flubbed roll anyway, making the whole exercise onerous and mostly pointless. You may as well just roll up front 131 times for the next 20 years of your character's career and with your .23% (or less - that's from 15 dice which should be the lower bound of a Techno's Willpower+Logic+Resonance) chance of failure you might run into ONE failure, which you'd just reroll with edge.


In short, I don't think it adds anything to the game other than some needless bookkeeping and dice rolling. Unless the player WANTS to have an addiction to VR...

@Marcus - I like that.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Miri on (16:33:34/06-08-15)
Maybe an echo - One with the Machine - that allows you to accept up to 1 essence worth of 'ware with no hit. It could either be taken up to X times (maybe 3) or scale with your submersion grade (again, optionally with a limit). Allowing a TM to eventually take 10 essence worth of cyberware would be unbalancing, so I think that a reasonable limit should be included.

How about a Resonance required 14 or so point Quality "One with the Machine" Allows you to accept 1 essence worth of cyber-ware/bioware with no loss of resonance. You still take the all the other Negatives relating to essence loss ie social limit and healing tests, etc.

This would go a very long way to solving the techno starting viability problem. Making it a quality makes it available at creation, and restricts it from being taken more then once, as well as attaching reasonably high resource cost. It won't make technos super combatants but it will give them reasonable options.

How do you plan to pay for that cybergear?  Most every build I have seen has Resources E for 6K..
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (17:15:00/06-08-15)

@Triskavanski - They could, but how likely is it that they would? I'm pretty sure entering the Resonance Realms and Submerging requires entering VR. I suppose you could have that be the only times they use VR in order to reduce the risk, making the risk then more comparable to a mage using foci, but it basically means that a unique part of your character - the built in hot-sim module all Techno's have - is all but unusable. You might as well build an AR decker - in which case Mages and Adepts make better AR deckers.


Hot-Sim simsense only has a threshold of one, so the risk of addiction is pretty low and a PC would likely edge out of a flubbed roll anyway, making the whole exercise onerous and mostly pointless. You may as well just roll up front 131 times for the next 20 years of your character's career and with your .23% (or less - that's from 15 dice which should be the lower bound of a Techno's Willpower+Logic+Resonance) chance of failure you might run into ONE failure, which you'd just reroll with edge.


In short, I don't think it adds anything to the game other than some needless bookkeeping and dice rolling. Unless the player WANTS to have an addiction to VR...

@Marcus - I like that.


Hmm well youve got a good point there actually.

Never really thought abot the book keeping parts of it. Perhaps in addition to the immunity move the bonus to uv ?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (18:48:32/06-08-15)

How do you plan to pay for that cybergear?  Most every build I have seen has Resources E for 6K..

1 pt worth of gear isn't a huge price tag, even with resources E between starting karma to cash and if need the indebt quality you can probubly raise the cash for something useful, my guess is fairly equal split between cyber-eyes w/ smartlink and data jack, and a cyber arm will be the most common 2 selected load outs. Keeping in mind it's something you can spend money on once you get started.

I'm not saying it's a perfect solution but it should do what's needed without overturning the apple cart as it were.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Beta-Max on (10:38:22/06-09-15)
Quote
Hmm well youve got a good point there actually.

Never really thought abot the book keeping parts of it. Perhaps in addition to the immunity move the bonus to uv ?

Finally Trisk sees th VR addiction immunity light!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: wmkertz on (11:31:12/06-09-15)
Be cautious about what you give to technomancers but not to deckers.  The balance between two concepts has been a tangled mess since technomancers made their first appearance.  A few tweaks either way could easily result in one completely eclipsing the other.

The previous edition of the game ended up inadvertently tipping that balance.  If somebody wanted to play a dedicated hacker, it made almost no sense to play a decker.  Either you went techno, or you bought an agent and invested your precious karma elsewhere.

From a mechanics perspective I'd like to see to their strength and weaknesses converge, making the difference between them more about narrative flavor, rather than further segregating their potential.  The Matrix has too much a niche appeal to split the players that it appeals to.

I've been running a campaign with a few house rules to give each the same versatility.  Technomancers can network a pan through their living personas and get a sustainable complex form that emulates a device that can run a number of programs equal to it's force.  Deckers on the other hand can use complex forms in the guise of viruses and hot patches, where the drain is doubled to becomes an availability pool rolled against them as they try to program it.  I tried to make a parallel between virus to complex forms and alchemical preparations to spells.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (15:09:11/06-09-15)
I thought about a way to create a technomancer equivalent to adepts and so far, no luck.
But how about this:
Quote
Negative Quality:
Physical Aspect
Cost: -5 Karma
You take a 3 Penalty to compiling and registering 2 Penalty to your Cybercombat Skillgroup(Alternatively "You can't register Sprites", or any other penalty that makes either acting in the matrix or being a TM a bit more difficult),
but you get 1 free Echo from the list below. This doesn't count as a Submersion.

Imagine a List here.
Said list could include things like Pain Editor and Reflex Wire Echos, or an Echo that grants a small Essence rebate (Say 0.2 +0.1 per Submersion only for Alpha+ Cyberware and Cultureware), or one that grants a bonus to martial arts used with smartlinked weapons.
Thoughts?

...
And thinking about it, if a Technomancer can naturally interface with the matrix to the point he can use "biowires" of wireless data to practically replace his nerve connections, would it fit the fluff to have an Echo that allows a Technomancer to use Resonance for physical tasks, like, say, soaking stun damage, or perceiving in meatspace?

Edit: Changed suggested Quality.
Edit2: Just thought about a Fluff Piece:
What about an Echo, CF, or Quality that allows a TM to temporarily boost his power, the same way an Adept can? F.Ex. Resonance Boost. It would allow for some awe inspiring feats from an otherwise subpar Technomancer, should someone choose to specialize in that.
Example:
Quote
Positive Quality:
Resonant Defender
Cost: 6/9 Karma
When going into full Defense, the Character can add her Resonance instead of her Willpower to her Defense.
For 9 Karma, this also applies to Full Matrix Defense.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (16:21:51/06-09-15)
Quote
Hmm well youve got a good point there actually.

Never really thought abot the book keeping parts of it. Perhaps in addition to the immunity move the bonus to uv ?

Finally Trisk sees th VR addiction immunity light!

Not at all, i see the pointless book keeping light.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Hobbes on (16:51:47/06-09-15)
Be cautious about what you give to technomancers but not to deckers.  The balance between two concepts has been a tangled mess since technomancers made their first appearance.  A few tweaks either way could easily result in one completely eclipsing the other.

Currently Deckers are a couple of dice better at most every Hacking skill out of Chargen, and the Techno never really catches up without some seriously silly Sprite assistance.  And most Technomancers are bottom of heap in the meat world.  Sprites make up for it a bit, but it's a lot of bookeeping, and it's a very specific play style that not everyone likes.   

My #1 hope for any technomancer supplement would be mechanical parity with other Archetypes without having to be a pet class, and without breaking the pet class. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (17:10:54/06-09-15)
The previous edition of the game ended up inadvertently tipping that balance.  If somebody wanted to play a dedicated hacker, it made almost no sense to play a decker.  Either you went techno, or you bought an agent and invested your precious karma elsewhere.

From a mechanics perspective I'd like to see to their strength and weaknesses converge, making the difference between them more about narrative flavor, rather than further segregating their potential.  The Matrix has too much a niche appeal to split the players that it appeals to.

In the last edition, you were basically better of letting an agent do all hacking regardless. That was an edition failure not class balance issue.

I've been running a campaign with a few house rules to give each the same versatility.  Technomancers can network a pan through their living personas and get a sustainable complex form that emulates a device that can run a number of programs equal to it's force.  Deckers on the other hand can use complex forms in the guise of viruses and hot patches, where the drain is doubled to becomes an availability pool rolled against them as they try to program it.  I tried to make a parallel between virus to complex forms and alchemical preparations to spells.

Well if you have functional house rules that fix techno please put'em up here in mechanical detail. Can you please explain that last sentence in detail, what did these things do?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (20:25:13/06-09-15)
Weren't adepts like, the 4e hackers of choice as well?

Be cautious about what you give to technomancers but not to deckers.  The balance between two concepts has been a tangled mess since technomancers made their first appearance.  A few tweaks either way could easily result in one completely eclipsing the other.

Currently Deckers are a couple of dice better at most every Hacking skill out of Chargen, and the Techno never really catches up without some seriously silly Sprite assistance.  And most Technomancers are bottom of heap in the meat world.  Sprites make up for it a bit, but it's a lot of bookeeping, and it's a very specific play style that not everyone likes.   

My #1 hope for any technomancer supplement would be mechanical parity with other Archetypes without having to be a pet class, and without breaking the pet class. 



But yeah, what Hobbs says here. While Technomancers are not exactly garbage fromt he start, the fact that a Decker needs really 4 skills, while Technomancers need at least 5, or 7 if they're going to use sprites, puts Technomancers back a bit.

Deckers can easily boost their Log, with no real loss, resulting in greater pools of dice for most matrix actions. They can also get programs and the like, as well as higher limits faster than technomancers. The Technomancer has a bottleneck in karma usage, because there is so much to get.

I've also been developing a lot of my own house rules too, Mostly with things that  i feel are cool concepts, but either poorly designed (Changelings) or lacking (technomancers.)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: wmkertz on (09:38:03/06-10-15)

I've been running a campaign with a few house rules to give each the same versatility.  Technomancers can network a pan through their living personas and get a sustainable complex form that emulates a device that can run a number of programs equal to it's force.  Deckers on the other hand can use complex forms in the guise of viruses and hot patches, where the drain is doubled to becomes an availability pool rolled against them as they try to program it.  I tried to make a parallel between virus to complex forms and alchemical preparations to spells.

Well if you have functional house rules that fix techno please put'em up here in mechanical detail. Can you please explain that last sentence in detail, what did these things do?

If you want the specifics this is what I introduced.  Technos got the following complex forms:

Living Network
Target: Persona
Duration: Sustained
Fade: L+1

Uses the resonance to funnel Matrix activity through the technomancer's Living Persona.  Make a Software + Resonance [Level] test, for every hit the technomancer may slave 3 devices to their Living Persona as long as this form is sustained.

Living OS
Target: Persona
Duration: Sustained
Fade: L+1

The complex form creates a virtual system around the technomancer's Living Persona capable of running programs and holding files without any real world presence, similar to hosts.  Make a Software + Resonance [Level] test, for every hit on this test the technomancer receives a program slot that they may use to load any files or programs except for agents.

And deckers get the following:

Infect
Complex Action
Marks Required: 3
Infect an Icon with malicious code.  Infecting a system is an opposed test, Hacking + Logic [Sleaze] vs Intuition + Firewall.  If successful the code is implanted and will remain in place for a number of minutes equal to any net hits on that test.  After that time the system's firewall will have adapted to the virus rendering it ineffective.

Preparing a Virus
Viruses are based on complex forms that can be considered detrimental to their target.  First choose a complex form you intend to copy, then select what rating (level) virus you wish to make and a trigger that will activate the virus.  Both the rating and trigger will determine how difficult it will be to acquire the virus.  The most basic trigger is 'upon infection', which will cause the virus to activate immediately once in place.  Other triggers can delay activation until certain conditions are met, but more complex triggers will make the virus harder to program at the GM's discretion.

Creating the virus requires a Software + Logic [Attack or Sleaze] 1 hour test, versus twice the complex form's Fade Value + Trigger Modifiers.  Matching the opposed roll gets the hacker the virus at the end of the hour, but each net success will reduce that time by half.  A failed test results in wasted time and a  glitch halves the time before the virus becomes ineffective.

Once activated, Viruses roll twice their rating versus their target's defenses and behave as described by the complex form they copy.  With the Matrix constantly updating, viruses only have a 24 hour shelf life after creation before becoming ineffective.

Hot Patch
Complex Action
Marks Required: 3
Patch an Icon with experimental code.  Patches must have a Rating at least equal to the Device Rating or appropriate Attribute of the target system to be affective.  Patching a willing system is a Software + Logic [Data Processing] test versus Device Rating x 2.  Patching an unwilling system is the same as trying to Infect that system and uses the appropriate test.  If successful the code is implanted and will remain in place for a number of minutes equal to any net hits on that test.  After that time the experimental code will begin to break down rendering it ineffective.

Preparing a Patch
Patches are based on complex forms that can be considered a boon to their target.  First choose a complex form you intend to copy, then select what rating (level) patch you wish to make and a trigger that will activate the patch. Both the rating and trigger will determine how difficult it will be to acquire the patch.  The most basic trigger is 'upon application', which will cause the patch to activate immediately once in place.  Other triggers can delay activation until certain conditions are met, but more complex triggers will make the virus harder to program at the GM's discretion.

Creating the Patch requires a Software + Logic [Data Processing] 1 hour test, versus twice the complex form's Fade Value + Trigger Modifiers.  Matching the opposed roll gets the programmer the patch at the end of the hour, but each net success will reduce that time by half.  A failed test results in wasted time, a glitch halves the time before the patch becomes out of date.

Once activated, Patches roll twice their rating and behave as described by the complex form they copy.  With the Matrix constantly updating, patches only have a 24 hour shelf life after creation before becoming ineffective.

Its worth explaining that technos must still pay for the programs and deckers must still spend karma to design their viruses.

These rules mirror the house rules for alchemy at my table, which I changed to cut down on the book keeping.  Alchemical creations don't lose potency over hours, but they are only good for about a day.  Also cut out the regent requirements just to make the process a little more streamline.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (19:02:44/06-11-15)
Well I think it's interesting that you used multiple system issues to solve one another in a certain sense.
I think would upset the apple cart, but it's certainly an interesting idea.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (23:52:20/06-13-15)
I think some of the technomancer's problems lay around the fact they cannot really compensate for their weakness like other archetypes can. This could be attributed to a lack of gear and funds to get gear.


Mages are generally physically weak as well, but they have magic that can buff their physical attributes. Also since they are less dependent on all their mental stats, they can afford to smooth out on all sides. Technos on the other hand are very dependent on metal stats, and don't have magic to buff their physical aspects.

Perhaps what could be used is some small scale gear items intended to buff a Technomancer up. Like for example, roller skates that act like a car or drone but for your feet, or just give a bonus to movement speeds. It should be cheap though, something waay below a scooter.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: ShadowMaster on (00:27:13/06-14-15)
I would suggest a sidebar with optional rules of currently existing rules.
Such as Resonance [Program] could be changed to give program slots either 1 per time take or up to ones submersion grade.
I happen to use the submersion grade in my game and it works fine.
The karma cost otherwise is to exorbitant and not worth it for any program.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (02:10:28/06-14-15)
Or instead of slots, just the programs. So the technomancer has the ability to eventually out program deckers, but lacks their flexibility.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: ScytheKnight on (02:22:10/06-14-15)
I'ts not really something I've seen before in ShadowRun, but for terms of having things linked to Resonance or Submersion rating perhaps a diminishing returns systems... every couple of bonuses from the system increases the number of needed Resonance or Submersion ranks. Offers that quick leg up Tehnomancers seem to need, offers a bit of progression as they gain power, but the diminishing returns makes sure they don't get out of hand.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (03:59:21/06-14-15)
ScytheKnight, I'd like you to go back and take a look at the karma cost of a) the Resonance attribute, and b) increasing Submersion costs.  It's already costly enough, considering the hit faced by technomancers and, yes, mages - because by the time you're hitting your 'full stride' at a point where you're finally really going to surpass others, you're paying twenty and more points for an Initiation/Submersion despite all the add-ons, and 50+ karma for the attribute to make it stick - or for you to be able to initiate yet once more.

'Diminishing returns' does not even begin to cover how diminished the returns are.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: ScytheKnight on (19:39:22/06-14-15)
This is true... was really only offering it as a suggestion to counter the 'unlimited potential' factor.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (21:09:54/06-14-15)
IMO a Technomancer should have unlimited potential, like how a Mystic Adept does. Should be a bit slow, of course, to go down the ultimate power route, leaving you open in other areas, but one point of a matrix stat per echo is a bit too slow IMO. Eventually right now, Deckers will go far above and beyond Technomancers, having a higher matrix attribute potential than Technomancers, especially with that paladin netting up at 9, 9, 8, 8
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (23:47:49/06-14-15)
'Unlimited Potential' is a straw man too - because at that same point, you're paying a whole boatload of karma to get the next point of Resonance so that you are allowed to acquire the next level of Submersion.  If I'm spending 30 points on a Submersion (31 for Grade 7), I'll also be spending at least 35 points on the attribute to match (6 Resonance to 7).  That's 66 points of karma - enough to raise a skill from 0 to 7, with 10 karma left over, or three skills from 10 to 11.  The technomancer gets one Submersion out of it, and an extra die here and there.  The other guy arguably gets a hell of a lot more.

When you get to a certain point of initiation, etc. it becomes a pretty damn steep curve, and the other non-mage/technomancer people are going up here, there, and yon while you're saving up to buy that attribute so you can buy that grade.

"Unlimited Potential" is not functionally true.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (19:02:56/06-15-15)
Ok, I know I suggested that myself some page ago, as did others, but the more I think about it, the less an Echo to reduce Essence cost seems appropriate.
There's an Adept way specializing on tech, and if want that tech inside you, you still have to pay.
Having the TM increase the function of the gear, however, remains attractive.
If the Echo for Skillwires returns, maybe allow the option to add it's level to the rating of existing skillwires, if present, instead of granting them themselves?
This would actually allow a TM to get skill wires above level 6, should he sacrifice essence, submerge, and probably get another echo to raise the effect of the skillsofts plain not available in that rating. Don't tell me that's OP. ^^
As for improving one's own Cyberarm, maybe just a Complex Form that lasts a specific duration and takes the "redline" rules from arsenal, minus the damage to the ware.
Could last longer or give bonus dice if it's the TMs own gear.

Edit: I was reading through the FAQ thread of this very forum to find clarification for the issue here (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21041.0) (some clarification in a TM-centric book might not hurt), and I found just using the print function top right and serching for "Technomancer" provides a trove of information on the problems people have with the 'class'.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (08:20:15/06-16-15)
Changing the existing Echoes to granting +[Submersion Grade/2, round up] on the Living Persona Attributes/Program Slots seems fair, but don´t overdue it: Pro Deckers with Heavy Cyberdecks should be the more "beefy" Hackers. So take a step away from balancing issues and the ol´ numbers game. Instead, try to give Technomancers more versatility and unique Tricks and not just some Complex Forms that practically just let you do Decker Stuff with added (and way too high!) Fading Damage.

Resonance is basically "Matrix Magic", so don´t hold yourself up with thoughts like "OMG, why should this work ?!". Its the Resonance, thats why! The Matrix itself is a bit of a wonder, and the Resonance is a wonder born out of that wonder. So give us some wonders: Things that logically shouldn´t work, but somehow do. Things that make smug, strictly logical Deckers jaws drop (at least for a short moment) and that give Technomancers ways of dealing with things really differently.

My Example / Proposal: A set of Komplex Forms that force Devices into the Matrix and lock them in Wireless mode as long as the Form is sustained (given that they are no throwbacks, of course). Maybe one that works on touch, one on sight, one as an AOE around the Technomancer.

Voila, there you have have it: A little wonder! Something a Decker cant do, because technically it should be impossible. Something that gives Mancers new tactics, alone and teamed up with other Hackers.  And also something that justifies the public fear of Techomancers, because now, if you want to safely run against Mancers, just shutting of Wireless functionality may not be enough. I´d love to imagine Coporate Technomancer Hunting Squads that go all Sticks´n Rocks when going after their prey.

Yes, it would be a game-changer, but lets face it: That´s what TMs need.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: korusef on (13:07:24/06-16-15)
My Example / Proposal: A set of Komplex Forms that force Devices into the Matrix and lock them in Wireless mode as long as the Form is sustained (given that they are no throwbacks, of course). Maybe one that works on touch, one on sight, one as an AOE around the Technomancer.

Voila, there you have have it: A little wonder! Something a Decker cant do, because technically it should be impossible. Something that gives Mancers new tactics, alone and teamed up with other Hackers.  And also something that justifies the public fear of Techomancers, because now, if you want to safely run against Mancers, just shutting of Wireless functionality may not be enough. I´d love to imagine Coporate Technomancer Hunting Squads that go all Sticks´n Rocks when going after their prey.

Technically GI/GO from Data Trails lets you rewire the "Turn Off Wireless" to something else, preventing it that way. Of course you should also GI/GO the "Reboot" action as well to stop them from fixing it that way.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (18:32:29/06-16-15)
My Example / Proposal: A set of Komplex Forms that force Devices into the Matrix and lock them in Wireless mode as long as the Form is sustained (given that they are no throwbacks, of course). Maybe one that works on touch, one on sight, one as an AOE around the Technomancer.

Voila, there you have have it: A little wonder! Something a Decker cant do, because technically it should be impossible. Something that gives Mancers new tactics, alone and teamed up with other Hackers.  And also something that justifies the public fear of Techomancers, because now, if you want to safely run against Mancers, just shutting of Wireless functionality may not be enough. I´d love to imagine Coporate Technomancer Hunting Squads that go all Sticks´n Rocks when going after their prey.

Technically GI/GO from Data Trails lets you rewire the "Turn Off Wireless" to something else, preventing it that way. Of course you should also GI/GO the "Reboot" action as well to stop them from fixing it that way.

Thanks, but my fokus here is on actually turning Wireless on through the power of Resonance only (no Matrix connection needed, thats why I´m calling it a "wonder") and then putting the device in a kind of link-lock.
Dackers can use the Lockdown programm or Garbage in/Garbage out to lock stuff in the Matrix, but they can´t switch a Smargun to wireless mode just by looking at it. 

But the lock effect is still important, of course: Spending a Complex Action and risking Fading would not be worth it if the target can easily switch wireless back off. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (19:05:15/06-16-15)
A Resonance Direct Link complex form would be awesome. This way you aren't forced to take the skinlink echo, instead you have to waste a complex action, resist some fading, and sustain the resonance link. This gives you a direct connection to a device regardless of if it's a throwback, wireless off, or other miscellaneous nonsense that screws hackers in general.

How terrifying would it be for all those luddites out there who think running with wireless off keeps them safe to still be hacked by a TM.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (07:47:40/06-17-15)
That´s the thought here  8)

As long as it´s not a 100% Throwback (like an old Ruger SWH completely stripped off the electronic parts or, lets say, a rock or a pointed stick), nothing would be 100% save from the TMs Grasp.

Strong, but still in balanced IMO: A good Decker would need a Data Tap (or induction Pad) and physical contact to the inner wirings for this, but he most likely has some Augmentations (or even Adept Powers), his beefy Cyberdeck and more "mundane" Skills like Stealth / Social Engineering on his side. And keep this in mind: A Mage could also toggle wireless disabled devices from a distance using Magic Fingers (or its owner via control spells) . We´re not talking about a game-breaking feature here, this is something another "paranormal" and not-so-much-of-a-Hacker character class can already do.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: grauetheorie on (12:42:39/06-17-15)
I very much like the idea that technomancers can force devices to turn wireless on. Personally I prefer two ideas. First, a complex form which is sustained and as long as it is sustained it forces every device in a given radius to have WIFI enabled. Or second, a complex form that sends a burst of resonance, which forces every device to have WIFI enabled for 1 combat turn per hit.

Also I would like to see an echo (e.g. Sleepwalker) that requires the echo Sleepwaker. This echo could allow a Technomancer to take one action phase during a combat turn in the meat world while he is in VR. In essence, a Technomancer could always be in VR, and have initiative according to it, but still perceive the meat world and interact with it.

Both ideas would make the Technomancer quite distinct from a Decker. Deckers can keep their flexibility at hacking while the Technomancer receive also flexibility in an other area.

I do not like to give Technomancers the same tools a decker has. Both should be really different in how they play and what their strengths and weaknesses are.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (20:21:37/06-17-15)
Well in a lot of ways, A decker's main strength over technomancers would be a superb flexibility. They can load the right programs for the job, and shift around their matrix stats. A Technomancer on the other hand is like a lumbering giant. As they rise in power they'll be exceedingly stronger than a decker, but they won't necessarily have the flexibility a decker could.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (21:39:50/06-17-15)
Or the hacking skills, because most people don't play that long. :P
Unless that book drastically shifts the balance of power.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Beta-Max on (22:29:13/06-17-15)
Well in a lot of ways, A decker's main strength over technomancers would be a superb flexibility. They can load the right programs for the job, and shift around their matrix stats. A Technomancer on the other hand is like a lumbering giant. As they rise in power they'll be exceedingly stronger than a decker, but they won't necessarily have the flexibility a decker could.

Trisk, in concept i always felt it should be the other way around. In SR4, Technomancers were the flexibility KINGS! I felt sometimes if you excuse the severely crude analogy, that a Decker would fit a square peg into a round hole using a hammer, while the technomancer would simply warp the shape until it fit. I think a huge part of the reason technomancers are feeling a little lost is because of the DRASTIC way the SR4 to SR5 altered how hacking and running the matrix works.

The fluff always portrayed them with far more finesse then a Decker, so maybe if we can find a way to bring some of that back. Let TM's bend the rules, like being on multiple grids at once, stretch the matrix to the point of breaking to give them the loopholes needed to have the edge over a Decker who is constrained by the limits of his own technology.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (22:40:07/06-17-15)
Well, the fact that Deckers can shift easily between meat and matrix, and shift around how they function on the matrix is always going to allow them to be more flexible than technomancers.

That starts Deckers on the path of fexilibity, while technomancers can only do the basic matrix actions or a handful of complex forms. A TM could become more flexible depending on how so depending on how certain CFs are treated, but he wouldn't have the flexibility of a decker still. IN addition to not being able to load programs, switch matrix attributes, or easily flip flop between matrix and meat, other things that make them more single effecting is the fact that so many CFs are one function. Stitches can only repair sprites. Tattletell only works on very specific targets. Resonance Channel just lowers a bit of the distance for noise.


After a massive amount of karma expenditure however, Technomancers would become a bit more capable than deckers in the matrix, due to having a lot more of everything. They jsut gotta live that long.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (05:11:44/06-18-15)
They have to live long enough to accrue so much karma that the decker can't spend karma into his hacking skills anymore, because only then can they pull ahead.
As for flexibility versus power:
The Decker changes himself, while the TM changes the Matrix. It's hard to put a label on that.
In the end a decker will be able to do most things well, but not everything at once, while a TM will be able to do a few things well, but those really good, and he can do unique things no one else can ever do.
Honestly, Technomancers would be in a lot better place right now with less Fade, as the unqiue part comes with a ridiculous cost. It's the equivalent of a mage casting a fireball automatically setting himself on fire.
This might not be the scope of this thread, however.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DARKBLADEZD73 on (06:27:13/06-18-15)
Hi!
     Thanks for starting this thread because I have just started playing my very first technomancer and it is in my opinion so very hard to play. To me it is much like playing a second-hand decker.
  In SR4 Technomancer's where like MATRIX gods, little g's..,My point is I was lead to believe they where unique and rare and cool
and oh look they are just another archetype that melds into a universe full of unique and rare people...except they are just like deckers..but better...kinda.

  I even took the Otaku to Tehcnomancer quality so I could be even more unique and I just don't. I have limited TECHNOMANCER ACTIONS and a ton of Decker/Hacker/Matrix actions...but at the same rate and ability of a decker? Shouldn't the technomancer be better than the decker? Just as the Magician's and the Adept's better than the Magic Adept? Is that not the point of playing them?
 
  If you read the story behind their creation, You would think they are extremely dangerous and can be a force to be reckoned with. I just think they are really capable deckers. If you build them right, who do not really stand out in my opinion. I would rather play an AI. It is far more capable than a Technomancer in my opinion.
 
  Other than those comments I do not know the ROW on Tehcnomancers that well other than I can mostly agree with everything listed above. Mostly because I think SR5 is Slipping away from their basic concept...Which is...EVERYTHING HAS LIMITS...AND A PRICE! That needs to always be  remembered.

Also, please clarify the rule with examples. Show us how you the writes/creators do it so we can follow in your footsteps. Thank you FOR ALL YOU HARD WORK! LOVE YOU ALL FOR MAKING THE BEST RPG OUT THERE!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Rob Hollday on (17:19:39/06-18-15)
Post removed to prevent going off topic. It it will be re-posted elsewhere.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (18:18:25/06-18-15)
Now I'm not sure this is the right place, but that is a seriously helpful "How to" for aspiring technomancers.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Beta-Max on (09:52:11/06-20-15)
Seriously man, well thought out..I'll have to read it again when not on my phone..but repost it to its own thread..otherwise it'll cause serous off topic here.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Rob Hollday on (10:10:30/06-20-15)
Good advice UnLimiTeD and Beta-Max. I will re-posted it to its own thread under Reddit next week. Ill put the link here if anyone is interested.

As promised, here is the link: http://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/3aq8zb/technomancer_hacks_aka_how_to_play_a_technomancer/
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (10:30:59/06-20-15)
Why not post a new thread here?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (10:40:30/06-20-15)
Nachtland
Another mixed bag of Ideas and suggestions, some of which I proposed before, but fleshed out:

General:
- TMs should get the +2 Hot-Sim Bonus on Resonance Abilitites (at least on Threading)
- TMs should automatically recieve the Bonus of a Skilljack with [Resonance] Rating. A nice and fluffy little bonus, and also a logical prerequisite for return of the Biowire-Echoe. (balancing-wise, I go by the german Core Rulebook where Skilljacks cost only Rating*2000)
- I don´t think TMs should necissarily get a Skinlink Effect from start, but they should have an option for direct connections before Submersion. Let them "channel" their Powers through a Trode Net / Datajack + Cable.
- The current Fading Values on many Complex Forms are quite off. This means they are not a good benchmark for new CFs, and this also means that they probably should be subjected to an Errata.
- Please bring back Streams and Paragons from 4th Editions "Unwired". They were a great tool to give a TM more depth. 

Complex Forms:
Some ideas for Complex forms. I leave the Fading Values out, since they should be balanced as a whole after the whole TM redesign. Also, please don´t be reluctant to use them if they fit - I don´t consider these an intellectual property of mine :P

Enabling Touch, Enabler, Mass Enabler: Resisted with Willpower (or DR) + Firewall, these Complex Forms switch on wireless functionality  (as long as the necissary parts have not been removed) by force, either by Touch, on sight or in a  [Level] Meters Radius around the TM. The device is then locked in Wireless Mode for as long as the CF is sustained, probably with some active Resistance action for the victims to break the grip of the CF (Talked about these before. I think they have a potential to be huge game-changer for TMs.)

Gremlins Touch: A last-resort Close Combat Trick for TMs against Drones and Augmented targets. Like with a Touch Spell, the TM first has to make Physical Contact with the Target. Then a kind of "Resonance Shock" can be applied, attacking Cyberware and Elektronics. Drones resist with Firewall+Pilot and take the Net Hits as negative Dice Pool Modifikator and Matrix Damage.
Augmented Targets are only affected if they have at least one electronically enhanced Cyberware implant (Bone Lacing and Dermal Plating will probably stay safe, but Cyberlimbs, Cybersenses and Wired Reflexes won´t). They resist with Willpower+Essence(!) and take the negative Dice Pool Modifikator only on those Tests where such an implant is involved. They also take Stun Damage through Electric Shocks and Spasms, but this Damage is limited by the Essence loss through Cyberware (round up). The Dice Pool Modifikator holds up for [Level] Combat Turns after losing touch.

Tech Defense: Sustained CF. Resonance reaches out to defend the TM (or another target?) against wireless guided attacks, be it wireless (Smart-)Guns, Monowhips, Drones or even Grenades and missiles, letting them missfire or fizzle. Defense Tests against these attacks get the Net Hits of the CF as bonus dice (much like the Deflection Spell). Wireless AE attacks are disrupted, forcing them to to explode at least at a range of [Net Hits] Meters around the target.

Digital Invisibility:   Sustained CF. Kind of an "Invisibility Spell" against wireless cameras, sensors and cybersenses - the infamous "laughing man hack". Resisted with Intuition + Firewall. Nice Synergy with the "Enabling" CFs!

Neural Diagnosis: Offers the Effects of an implanted Biomonitor and maybe also bonus dice for technically enhanced First Aid and Medicine Tests. More of a niche CF, but it makes sense if a TM can convert biological/neural input into usefull data.

Resonance Shield: I was quite puzzled why that one was not in the Core Rules. A simple, sustained matrix damage absorber, granting its net hits on Matrix Damage Soak tests and making the TM a lot less squishy in the Matrix.

Mask of the Idoru: A sustained social enhancement CF for matrix communication. Bonuses should probably differ for uses against AR, Hot-Sim and Cold-Sim.

Liberator: Another Entry in the "Stuff Deckes would love to do"-section: Resisted with Willpower + Firewall of the Master Device, the CF disrupts a single Master-Slave connection. Note that this doesnt necessarily mean that the device doesnt take any orders from its former master, but it loses the additional protection.

Enslave: And now the other way around, again resisted with Willpower + Firewall. This slaves a Device to the Linving Persona of the TM. Of course this is only possible against "free" devices without an active Master. Again, this doesnt mean the device will follow the TMs orders, but it is defended by the Living Persona against outside attacks

Beacon:  Resisted with Intuition + Stealth. Marks a known Target in the Matrix as with a flashing Beacon, breaking silent mode and rendering all attempts to Hide from Matrix perception unsuccessfull.

Also there´s  the Resonance Spike for Matrix Damage, but nothing to inflict Biofeedback Damage. A bold Proposal:

Grey spike: Resistance with Willpower+Firewall. Inflicts Net Hits as Biofeedback Damage (Stun only). Using neural channels normal biofeedback attacks cannot access, this CF can even damage AR-users, given that they use a DNI or Trodes for their AR experience. In this case however, the CF inflicts only half the damage.

Black Spike: Resistance with Willpower+Firewall. Inflicts Net Hits as Biofeedback Damage. Using neural channels normal biofeedback attacks cannot access, this CF can even physically damage Cold-Sim users. In this case however, the CFs Damage is split between Stun and Physical Monitor, the Stun Monitor getting the bigger portion if the Damage Code is uneven.

The Stun Damage against AR targets / The Physical Damage against Cold-Sim Target is another thing a Decker can´t accomplish. These will hardly knock out an AR-User or kill a Cold-Sim user, but its probably enough to make  people a little bit afraid of the TMs Powers. And according to the Fluff about TMs, there should be some reasons to be afraid.

Sprites:
Nothing much to say here, the existing Sprites are actually quite strong, making the "Petnomancer" the only currently recommandable way to play a TM. There could be, however, more Sprites for different streams of Technomancers, like there were in 4th ed.
(Personally, as a GM and a Player, I don´t like pet classes and I´d like to  think that many players think the same. As a player, you want to do stuff yourself, and from a GMs perspective, handling another 4-5 entities in a Combat and OS counts gives you headaches and the other players a serious case of the snores. So my proposal is to make TMs less dependent on a big, micromanaged library of registered Sprites and more about fast and intuitive actions.)

Echoes:
Here, I´d like to  refer to the additional Echoes from 4th Editions "Unwired": A great pool of ideas to draw upon. Especially the return of Biowires and the Enhanced Biowires (a.k.a. Resonance Wired Reflexes) would be cool.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (12:43:11/06-20-15)
Actually I had a thought on a new sprite, And I blieve there was one like it in unwired

Guardian Sprite - features high firewall and low everything else. Its main sprite power is that it can function as a barrier between you and an enemy.

Kinda got the Idea with Totchikomas in the latest GITs where they begin assisting the major to block off a powerful attack so she couldn't get hacked.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: SoulGambit on (01:54:24/06-21-15)
I want to be able to look at a garage door, be like, "Open." and then that door just opens. None of this mark business. None of this hacking business. The TM wants technology to do a thing, it should do that thing as though the TM were the natural owner giving it a command. TMs should not be subtle, or nuanced, or versatile like Deckers are. They shouldn't be able to use their TM skills to hack and gain long term advantages on a device or system or what have you, but where they walk, the TM's will be done in the matrix. This should be done without eating a ton of Fading.

Technomancers should not require tons of system mastery to make viable. They should be easy and straightforward to build. Take Resonance. Buy some complex forms. Take the Resonance related skills. Done. Nothing else should be necessary to fill the "hacker" role as a Technomancer.

Interfacing with the Matrix like a Decker should be secondary, though possible.

Please decouple mental attributes from the Living Persona's traits. It creates an expectation or a pressure to raise all your mental attributes as high as possible, which doesn't create a healthy experience when creating a technomancer.

Let them Skinlink by default or have a Complex Form that hooks them into devices like a DNI.

Clarify and fix Machine Sprites, and their ability to grant everyone a +Bajillion bonus on maybe everything.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (09:40:52/06-21-15)
Thinking of how to give TM's a nuyen sink, I think the ability to set up Resonance Wells would be a good way to burn money. A TM needs to buy a bunch of outdated hardware, set it up in a barren corner of the real world that doesn't see a lot of Matrix traffic, spends Level-days to set up the well, to get a well at Level. Then the Resonance well creates a "positive" noise for the TM while in this location making it cheaper/easier to submerge, learn complex forms, compile sprites, and any other resonance abilities. Basically act like a super magic lodge for TMs. And that deckers get hit with Level-noise which gives TMs a huge advantage and would also encourage corporations to have TM's set up Wells in their corporate offices to screw with deckers, or would prevent them as to not affect normal Matrix traffic. It'd also be an interesting liabilities to have dissonance TMs turn them into dissonance pools, which they'd have a much easier time if they physically geeked the creator of the well.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dezmont on (16:12:11/06-23-15)
My main issue with technomancers is not necesarily how powerful they are.

Technomancers have a lot of great tools that make them better than hackers. Ignoring OS, most likely but not explicitly having undetectable hacking options, and sprites are all really good and inarguably make you better than a decker, especially because once you get a deck you have most of the advantages of a decker.

The main issue with technomancers is the resource intensity to be one. While there may be disagreement on technomnacers as being stronger or weaker than a decker they inarguably cost far too much to be, take far too much energy to act, and have too little in terms of aiding outside of matrix actions.

Being a decker is relatively inexpensive and the resources priority allows deckers to not just get a good deck but also to grab some minor augmentation to give them a notable presence in meat. Furthermore because they can take augmentation and most of their good implants are low essence they have a lot of room to grow into the classic samurai-deckers of yore. The fact that you can steal cyberdecks relatively easily also allows upgrades if you can wipe the owner. Programs are a very large power boost at times, and are laughably inexpensive to the point there is little reason not to just own all of them. With only three primary attributes, one of them being willpower, a stat good for everyone, deckers can easily splice out into another role, which invariably makes a role stronger because if optimized you are presumably synergizing your roles and spending resources efficiently to get more for less. Think an ace samurai with maxed agility going into sneaking because, hey, most of the cost has already been sunk.

Technomancers meanwhile have an extremely painful priority table that locks out any exotic metatype, which is made worse by the fact that only two metatypes, dwarf and elf, have any synergy with technomancy. Compounding this is the fact that technomancers need to spend karma on complex forms unless they set technomancy to A, need to have an embarassing amount of skills, and absolutely can't afford to dump any mental stat save possibly charisma. Due to needing quite a few skills, amazing mental stats, and the lack of the ability to use 'ware without harming your gift, taking a sub-role as a technomancer is essentially impossible and thus technomancers weaker as a whole. Sprites are extremely effective, possibly the strongest tool on the matrix possible, but basing a technomancer around them borderline requires you to be abusive with downtime and spend weeks worth of registering and compiling rolls to work out. Complex forms range from rather terrible, such as Static Veil and Tattle Tale (And in my opinion transcendent grid due to how trivial it is to jump grids as a technomancer, but apparently I am the outlier there) to situationally strong, like puppeteer. However due to their high usage cost they fail to be the main tool of the technomancer like spells are for mages. The only good use of complex forms are when they can be spammed at 2 fading, such as with cleaner, to good effect or if they can become part of combos that allow you to exploit the way the matrix is set up. Puppeteer is devistating because the matrix isn't like the physical world and thus it is not really comparable to mind control, for instance, because a well played puppeteer, depending on GM, may be one of the most subtle ways to completely screw everything.

What is worse, many technomancer upgrade paths are complete garbage. Echos are, for the most part, a complete joke. Both compared to deckers spending karma on skills to get better and compared to initiations, which fundementally change how you can use magic and serve to make your mage unique rather than giving them +1 to their limit to do whatever. There are way too many trap echoes and too few that are actually good.



Essentially, in my mind, technomancers have massive stability and playability issues, not power issues. A lot of options might be good based on your GM, such as puppeteer, diagonstics, or sneaky resonance actions, but if your GM shuts them down then technomancers become unplayably bad. Because almost nothing a technomancer does has any synergy with any role they can actually enter, technomancers end up being one note and have to ride on the slight advantages they have on mages. While 5e has had some success with extra options expanding playability for underutilized options, such as R&G managing to bring longarms up to a point where they are very good and compelling rather than a more limited, slightly more powerful automatic, I don't believe that technomancers can be really fixed with a single quality. They need a bunch of options opened up to them at zero cost that allow them to register sprites more efficiently in downtime. They need more complex forms that can just be used on their own rather than as part of some weird scheme. They need more clarity in how the resonance actually works, such as if it is actually invisible and if technomancers can get a direct connection with trodes or not.

Most of all though, if technos are going to be an all consuming role, they need more options like diagnostics and gremlins. Hacking in 5e is now much more intergrated into the core run but it is still by no means something you can justify as your only skill. Combat hacking is for the most part a joke, and because technos are not that much better than deckers they can't really force hacking to do anything special. They need more abilities relating to devices as they operate in the meat, and they need to be good. Good to the point where the fluff is going to need to expand to accomidate them, such as allowing technomancers to cause physical harm with their abilities (Which has precident with dissonant technomancers) and allowing them more mentalist technopath abilities. It is that or re-writing the entire priority table to put technomancers on par with adepts and aspected mages, which frankly I doubt will happen.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (21:08:30/06-23-15)
A thought: would allowing Technomancers to reorder their mental attributes for their living persona make a difference in terms of playability?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Miri on (21:18:36/06-23-15)
A thought: would allowing Technomancers to reorder their mental attributes for their living persona make a difference in terms of playability?

Why not divorce it compleatly from your mental stats and make it based off resonance..

say.. an Res+1, Res, Res -1 and a Res -2?

that they can shuffle around like a cyber deck..?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (21:19:42/06-23-15)
I dunno. Possibly. It would mean they wouldn't need them all as high as they could go.  But honestly, you still need will power, logic and Intuition as thats all the matrix skills being keyed off those three (Will power allowing for fade)  So it would save you like 4 points from CHA that you could put into physical stats. But the low CHA means you couldn't start off with many sprites. Low logic means you can't have many sprites after creation.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: tytalan on (21:26:41/06-23-15)
Okay I did not read the whole thread so I do not know if anyone else has said this if so I am adding my vote.
1: first off I agree with everyone else they do seem hard to build and play as a useful member of the team and improving their basic ability is something that need to be done.  I am surprised that they are getting their own book I expected half of Datatrials to be devoted to them.
2:  One thing that surprises me is that there seems to be no rules for Technomancer Riggers the fluff seems to suggest that this should be possible but that as far as things go.  I could just see a Technorigger instead of remotely controlling drones using sprites. 

That just my 2 cents I liked the O's in 3rd and I just started running 5th, did not care for 4th, and I thought the fact no O's were Riggers made no sense and it makes less with the fluff for Technomancers,
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dezmont on (21:28:30/06-23-15)
A thought: would allowing Technomancers to reorder their mental attributes for their living persona make a difference in terms of playability?

Not really. All the stats are in the right place, but the fact that living persona is based entirely off stats that go 1-6, where 5 is an extremely high stat makes technos ridiculously stat dependant.

Technomancers still live and die by willpower, which also determines firewall, a stat that is important to stay high.

Logic determines sprite limit, and also matrix initiative, and on top of that is important for all of cybercombat and for getting marks when hacking.

Intuition determines sleaze, which is important to have at a respectable level sure and if that was moved to willpower might reduce some classic D&D style MAD, if not for the fact all second tier hacking actions involving sleaze depend on intuition anyway.

Charisma is the only real place technos can dump, both because the attack stat is arguably the least important one for them as they will never be as good as a regular decker anyway, and because charisma has no interaction with hacking.

The problem is that in order to have a remotely respectable living persona you need 5 in 3 stats, and even doing that you are going to be running a sub-par headdeck compared to a decker who can with very little investment hit 9 in a matrix stat of their choice just using programs and deck modifications.

Basically technomancers need better low cost ways to increase their living persona besides echoes in order to help reduce their crippling dependency on ridiculous attributes that don't even let them match a deck.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (21:57:10/06-23-15)
I wouldn't go so far to say that it has to be non-echo ways of increasing their biodeck, but it dang well needs to be better than what we got. 13+ karma to increase a matrix stat by a single point is not very good in the slightest. If some how the submersion stayed 13 all the way through, just to increase all four stats 1 point, would be 52 karma. In nuyen terms (Based on character creation) this is 104.000  nuyen. And I didn't include the increased cost of 3 karma per level.


Though.. On the other hand, I guess I did go as far to say that it shouldn't be an echo, with one of my technomancer houserules where you got 1 matrix point stat, per 2 resonance, making you  able to add a little more around in places.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Darzil on (04:58:30/06-24-15)
If Technomancers had toys (like Mages do) to reduce Complex Form sustaining penalties then Infusion of X would be pretty good ways on improving their living persona. I think they also need ways to reduce Fade values (or fade values hit with a hammer), as the current ones are a little crazy.

Personally I'd like more concentration on making Complex Forms viable, and less on trying to hack like a Decker at the same cost as a Decker.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (11:09:40/06-24-15)
If you compare Threading to Spellcasting, things are just obviously out of balance.

Scope of usability: Much Smaller (as long as you don´t play a pure matrix campaign, but who does that?)
Drain (pardon, Fading): Mostly higher up to the point of making many CFs useless. Resisted by Willpower + Resonance, which can be raised higher than 6 with Submersion eventually. Then again, mages have Centering, fetishes and Reagents.
Sources for Bonus Dice: Except for Edge and registered Sprites, none. No Mentor Spirits,  no Foci, and explicitly(!) not even the bonus from Hot-Sim. Specialisation only for one CF and not for a group or "school".
Cost: Both 5 Karma. Nevertheless, TMs get only half the number of CF as a mage get in spells when build with Sum to 10, because there aren´t just enough to really give you a choice reasons.
 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (14:20:56/06-24-15)
Cfs actually cost 4 karma
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: noddy_93 on (05:51:35/06-25-15)
Hello, I like the ideas in here. Especially that Complex Form that forces devices into wireless mode.
I was also thinking if it would help if sprites and technomancer would share their marks.
 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: bravelybravesirrobin on (08:58:16/06-25-15)
Lots of good ideas in here so far but a lot of complaining about the set-up for TM’s in the core rulebook. That won’t change and the TM book isn’t going to errata the core to do things like adjust fade, give out free abilities or change the priority system.

Basically any fixes we want have to come from additions in the form of:

New complex forms
New qualities
New echoes
New sprites
Other new stuff

Also imho the design space that TM’s occupy is that what Deckers do with tech, they do with their brain. There’s a connection between their meatspace body and the matrix that nobody else experiences and so they should sort of blur the world between matrix and meatspace more.  So rather than more ways to be better deckers, which just steps on the deckers design space, I’d like to see more extrapolations of their abilities in new and creative ways.

New complex forms

I’d like to see TM’s be able to use the matrix to boost their skills and intelligence.  Basically they thread some code which feeds information on a subject directly into their brain. The way I envisage this working is the techno threads a script that say, searches out how to speak Italian and inputs it into his brain’s language centres directly.

This would easily work for languages (learning the CF lets you know every language but you have to thread it each time you need to speak a language you don’t inherently know) and seems to make sense for knowledge skills but I’m not sure how you’d do that mechanically.

I also think it would work for certain active skills. Not the matrix ones or things like climbing and swimming but definitely the social skills and even things like unarmed combat (Woah! I know Kung Fu). You can argue something like unarmed combat requires muscle memory and training rather than purely knowing intellectually what to do but I think it works and lets Technos do something Deckers can’t, cast complex forms to buff their meat world activity.

From a balance perspective it would work similar to a mage’s increase attribute but is inherently weaker since you’d need a form per skill rather than having an attribute that works with many skills.

I’ll echo others in wanting to see some kind of smartlink CF and a CF that makes you invisible/inaudible to devices.

We also need some CFs for interacting with drones although I’m sure what you’d give them that doesn’t step on a rigger’s toes.

A CF that lets you turn wireless on/off from devices close to you in meatspace using the resonance seems appropriately scary and fluffy.

Some kind of gremlin CF that lets you brick devices you’re touching.

Ways to do biofeedback and link lock.

A CF that works similar to assenssing, but for cyberware. Letting a TM looks at someone and just know what kind of cyberware they have fitted.

New Qualities/Echoes

A lot of the ideas people have given in this thread for fixing fundamental TM issues could be implemented as either qualities or echoes. Things like having some ability to sustain more complex forms, immunity to hotsim addiction, reducing fade values, skinlink as a quality at chargen rather than a karma expensive echo.

I will echo the people that want to see the TM able to make passes in both meatspace and on matrix initiative during combat. Again it really fits the fluff and gives TMs something deckers can’t do without just straight up making them better deckers. I think this makes most sense as an echo.

New Sprites

Some kind of piloting sprite to possess and operate drones seems like something everybody wants. It lets TMs interact with drones (which we all want) but in a very different way to riggers.

Other new stuff

So TMs work a lot like mages, draw inspiration from mages and give them TM equivalents of foci and magical lodges.

Foci (lets call them widgets) lets you fix So Many TM issues. Both the direct fix of reducing fade, having more dice to thread forms/compile sprites and more options for sustaining forms and the indirect issue that TMs have nothing to spend Nuyen on. Like mages, TMs need Karma and have more money than they know what to do with. Widgets would let them spend that money to offset some (but not all) of the karma issues.

The main widgets I’d like to see would be; more dice for threading, more dice for compiling/registering, a way to sustain forms and a way to reduce fade. A general power widget would also work.

The tricks with widgets are how they would work fluff wise and to give them the same disadvantages as foci to prevent abuse (briefly, they cost karma, they can get lost, they form a link back to you, you can get addicted and there are hard limits on how many you can use).

Fluff wise I’d envisage these widgets as things made of the resonance, permanent bits of code that can’t be copied directly by anything except the most powerful TMs or A.I.s (you could give PC TM’s this ability as an echo) because of their complexity and because of their nature as seemingly part of the matrix itself. Powerful TMs set themselves up copying/growing these widgets and sell them to other TMs in illegal TM only hosts.

I’d also give TMs magical lodges or tiny hosts made in the same fashion. They can pay money to buy a small private host that’s weaker than the ones you’d normally go up against but which the TM has a safe space to compile sprites in, thread forms and keep his widgets.

Because as a balance I’d make it so that if the TM reboots his persona, he loses his widget unless he first stored it safe in his host. Say he goes on a run, gets mobbed by IC and reboots to escape. He leaves behind a bit of code which is linked to his living persona, so when he goes back into the matrix he knows straight away where his widget is to go and retrieve it but any IC or spiders that find his widget know exactly where he is the moment he reappears.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (10:25:59/06-25-15)
I totally agree with bravelybravesirrobin, because everything they said is what I've said.

Though, I'm not sure about TM hosts. I wanted a TM to be able to effect the resonance noise level of an area by setting up a resonance well, but on the other hand a host might be easier to explain mechanically and people do want rules to make hosts, so to make hosts and TM magic lodges one in the same, might be extremely cool. It also adds to the mysterious nature of how hosts work. Okay, I can get behind that.

Anyway, I've also been thinking of other nuyen sinks for TMs. Reagents are a good sink for mages, how about if we can have TMs burn out electronics to do the same thing. Instead of creating a new resource we just use what's already in the game, RFID tags. While RFID tags are WAY cheaper then reagents, fade values are WAY higher then drain values. So to offset insane fade values if TMs had easier and cheaper access to their "reagent" like resource it'd help offset that. Its also cool.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (11:48:31/06-25-15)
I like the idea of burning out electronics to power their abilities; similar to blood magic, but (probably) much less reviled unless the piece of electronics they are burning out just happens to be housing an AI at the time :D
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: bravelybravesirrobin on (12:29:31/06-25-15)
Rather than straight RFID tags maybe RFID tags with something (pure resonance?) stored on them. So they can be costed appropriately. Buy them from other TMs or A.I.s that are kind of farming the matrix for resonance and ahve loaded it onto the tags or they can go out and gather it themselves using an existing skill simialr to how mages can gather re-agents.

I don't find reagents to be a terribly effective mechanic though so I wouldn't encourage copying them too directly.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (12:46:44/06-25-15)
I had something like that, where they could form a techno pan thing, and use other electronics to increase thier ability to mitigate fade. The down side was devices used in this fashion take damage as well from the fade,
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: tytalan on (15:04:28/06-25-15)
I beginning to think bravelybravesirrobin is right the fixes can be handle with out a rewrite of the rules just by adding things.
On another thought I been reading the Echoes and I miss "Daemon Summoning"  Please bring it back.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: jack0byte on (08:57:40/06-26-15)
Hi all I just wanted to put in my thoughts I'm really liking where this is going and have real hope this book is going to be brilliant  ;D

first I just wanted to suggest a new quality hopefully fairly cheep that would let a tecnomancer gain the effect of a limited selection of echos things like Skinlink MMRI etc. I fell this would give techno more Identity out of creation as I often find myself having to build a techno with the expectation of getting one of these especially when trying to make a build for using drones   

I would just like to add to bravelybravesirrobin's list of places for fixes to include streams and paragons
I think that streams would be particularly suited for this as they have not yet appeared in this edition so no rules have been set it would be a comparatively simple thing to give them as a free option so not making any potential fix another karma sink each
stream could gain access to some of the existing CFs that a thematic for that stream  but at lower drain gain or any number of other fixes

lastly the thing I would like to see most is a digital equivalent of allay spirets I think this would let you give you the opportunity to get the most out of the fluff of the unique tenomancer ability of sprites with out being a pet class
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: korusef on (13:55:54/06-26-15)
TMs need a way to mitigate non-distance related noise.
If datajack stacking is allowed, there should be a way for TMs to have similar benefit without prohibitive karma or fading cost.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (14:15:42/06-26-15)
TMs need a way to mitigate non-distance related noise.
If datajack stacking is allowed, there should be a way for TMs to have similar benefit without prohibitive karma or fading cost.
"Everything has a price."

Also, Fresnel fabric.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dezmont on (19:23:48/06-26-15)
Also datajack stacking is almost certainly not allowed.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (19:43:52/06-26-15)
Well, if you're a Technomancer, according to Xenon.


There was some post however that did say that deckers/riggers could put a lot of datajacks in their head to reduce noice. Gotta find it though..
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (20:37:46/06-26-15)
Also datajack stacking is almost certainly not allowed.
Aaron, one of the developers, has stated that stacking datajacks is legal. One of the missions NPCs, Quantum Princess, possess two.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (07:49:51/06-27-15)
That's generally no problem until you get to betaware and decide that ten sounds like a good proposition.
I think they didn't think this through.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (10:18:16/06-27-15)
If you can replace the cable with that one that you could control like Myomeric Rope... Tend does sound like a good idea. Cause then you could be medusa.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sterling on (12:02:34/06-27-15)
This thread is fascinating, but y'all do realise the OP hasn't been active for three weeks now?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (12:13:45/06-27-15)
Active while logged in. And just because she isn't active doesn't mean that other freelancers aren't. I have doubts that one freelancer would write an entire book after all.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dal Thrax on (13:17:55/06-27-15)
Ok lets see: 

Technomaners really need a strategy guide section.  Technomancers a perceived as a weak choice, meaning that many players haven't put much thought into how to play them.  They can have some scarily powerful abilities, but if they aren't up front and obvious they are likely to be overlooked. 

I'd suggest something the summarizes the current complex forms and explains what they can do.  For example, can I use puppeteer to cause the security camera to invite a mark, meaning that I get a mark on the host?  How about using puppeteer to force somebody to take a matrix action on their commlink as their next available action during combat, basically causing them to miss a turn?  Editor allows you to hack files without gaining an overwatch score (or needing a mark on the file).  What exactly does the FAQ form do (can it call up files from the archives)?  Technomaners might have lower matrix stats than most cyberdecks, but there are forms for that.  Right now focused concentration is really good for a technomancer (especially level 2 so that the technomaner can sustain Static Veil on himself).  I think a lot of players need this pointed out.


I get the feeling that technomaners are meant to be a freeform magic system with limits.  A mage casts an illusion with a spell.  A technomaner hacks your commlink to cause your trode net to force your brain to see something that isn't there or hacks your cybereyes to turn the lights out.  Sure a decker might be able to do this, but a technomaner either doesn't get OS for it or uses cleaner and static veil to avoid the consequences.  Players need how this works pointed out to them.  Once you start really looking at resonance forms, you realize that they're Swiss army knives, but most folks just glance at them and move on.  By the time players get done reading what a technomaner can do, they should be ready to turn off the wireless, hardlink in with datacables and a datajack to anything (like a smartlink) that they really need, and run AR on glasses so that they can easily toss them if their link gets hacked.  (Bonus points if there is some way for a technomaners to get at even isolated systems, grappling with the echo that allows you to make a connection by touch and using that connection to insert a sprite into a Sam's ware comes to mind, though how does the sprite get out again is a good question).

Think out the logical implications of technomancer powers.  What happens when a Sprite gets stranded in a piece of gear that is then isolated from the rest of the matrix.  The MMRI echo means that a technomaner can now form a PAN with gear (shouldn't there be another echo that allows a techno to have gear slaved to him the same as a deckers deck).  Can a technomaner set up a device to run agents and have the agents follow directions from the techno even though he isn't hosting them like?

Deckers have a lot of fiddly bits that give minor bonus's.  One reason players feel that deckers are more powerful is that they get choices, where Technomaner get more blanket abilities that add extra dice.  Consider giving folks some of what they want by declaring Virtual Machine a valid echo (that is not active if the technomancer has no programs running on it) and having some shadowtalk to the effect that this is the first echo many technos choose.   

Some form of sustaining focus would be a really big deal for technomaners.  Maybe something justified based on the emulation ability of AIs?

Magic and Technology.  Some of this is basics.  Remember players are not likely to see how things interact between various classes.  For example, alchemical preparations can cast and sustain attribute boosting spells for hours.  This includes the mental stats on which a technomaners living persona is based, meaning that you get both a stat boost and a matrix stat boost.  Sure seems like its worth it to buy a couple preparations before a run, doesn't it?  Also, some information on sprites and spirits.  How does a possessing spirit react to a sprite in the same device?  Is any form of communication possible between a sprite in a drone and  a manifesting spirit?

My 10,000 nuyen question.  Jen the Nosferatu comes across Tron, her technomancer boyfriend, after he has been abducted by insect spirits and subject to the inhabitation power, but before the completion of the merg.  She essence drains him down to zero, forcing the spirit out as the body "dies".  The next night, Tron rises as a Nosferatu, loosing his connection to the resonance.  All Nosferatu awaken as full magicians.  What happens (besides a breakup)?  More bluntly, now that infected are legal PCs, it possible for a technomaner to switch and become a magician during the course of player.  This needs to be addressed.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (13:47:22/06-27-15)
Well, in the weakness of Technomancers, a lot of it has to do with how they are dedicated to matrix. And the Matrix is the only realm (The other two being Meat and Magic) that one can safely ignore. No, seriously, you could. The only thing that matrix really does for you is give you a few bonus dice until you gotta crack the host. You can't just flip a switch and make that Street sam barreling down on you with his katana just disappear. But you can flip the switch on your commlink to cause exactly the same thing happen to Technomancers.

On the flipside, Technomancers have to expend so much to be decent at the matrix, and their own resonance abilities. Even then though, they suffer issues with the matrix. And then to use their main abilities, they've got to deal with Matrix Meat and Magic. A decker and rigger often times do as well, but a rigger could just turn off all the wireless on his car, directly plug into it and be perfectly fine that way.

But I agree they need something of a stratagy guide and clarification of their abilities and powers and such. I mean could a Corp hire a technomancer, work to get him to submerge and instantly form that one way link with you, so they could track you down? If you use that one complex form that creates noise, does it cause only the device to take matrix actions at  a penalty and not the technomancer who threw it on there in the first place?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (17:27:41/06-28-15)
Ok, time for another mixed bag of bold Proposals ;)

There are two very valid issues about TM playability that need to be adressed:
-   The need for high mental Attributes (esp. for certain metatypes like Orks and Trolls) to function at all.
-   The need for Submersion/ECchoes to get some basic functionalities (Programms, Skinlink, Control Rig…) for many character concepts.

So I brainstormed a little bit to find ways of getting around these problems without going too deep into „errata territory“.

First of all: Why do TMs need these high stats in every Mental Attribute and why is that a problem? Unlike Deckers, they can not reconfigure their Matrix Attributes and they also can not buff them from start with Cyberprogramms. Because of that, if they have a low Mental Attribute (and by „low“, I mean any value below 5-4!), they have a very low limit for every(!) test using the related Matrix Attribute. This means that they will probably fail most of these tests regardless of their skill as long as they don´t break the limit with Edge. For example, without Intuition 5 or higher, a starting TM can not find any exotic piece of data (Threshold 5) in the Matrix. This is a big problem in general, but especially if you want to play a Troll or Ork.

So first, lets think about ways to go around the limit issue. You could think about Qualities, Echoes or CFs that let TMs buff their matrix limits without buffing Matrix Attributes or the Mental Attributes themselfes. You could also think about using the inherent limit for some tests, the mental limit in particular. Something like this Quality here:

Improvised Hack (5 Karma): This Quality must be taken for a certain Matrix Action (other than Control Device) and allows the Hacker to perform the Action with her mental limit instead of the associated matrix attribute as a limit. (Note: The Test only changes the limit. If you use a Data Spike with an Attack Attribute of 2 (or even without an Attack Attribute at all?), the base damage is still 2 (or Zero, if there is no Attack Attribute in the first place).

This is something that would also work nice for Deckers and also some lower-level-Matrix users like Faces or Covert Ops. Mancers would probably use it for Actions like Crack File, allowing them to be decent Data-Stealers without having high Charisma.

But why are we only talking about Mental Attributes here? Does the Resonance only pulse through the TMs brain and nerves and not also through their blood, bones and muscles? Does every Mancer have to „abandon“ his physical body to become a true Master of the Matrix?  What about an Echo like this:

Somatic Resonance (Prerequisite: Skinlink): You have learned to use every part of your body as a conductor for your technomantic Powers. As long as you have established a direct link to a device via Skinlink, you can use your Physical Attributes instead of your Mental Attributes to determine your Living Persona (Body=Firewall, Agility=Sleaze, Reaction = Data Processing, Strength=Attack). This works only for Tests interacting with or defending against devices you touch with the Skinlink.

This would make for an interesting new way to play a Technomancer: The „Technobrute“. As a Troll with this Echo, you could simply stretch out your long Troll Arms for a surveillance camera, a Drone or an enemies Weapon and fry it with your high Strength-based Attack Attribute, probably with scary pulsing veins and trembling muscles (Yeah, you could probably just physically sqeeze it to death as a Troll, but this is much cooler IMO). One could also imagine a high-Agility Covert Ops TM, using direct connections with high Sleaze to open doors and circumvent security devices.

There is just one huge problem with that: You´d still need to undergo Submersion for that, so this concept would not work from start, just like playing a TM as a Rigger.  This brings me to another topic: Streams and Paragons.

In SR4, Streams and Paragons worked just like Magical Traditions and Mentor Spirits: Resonance Streams allowed you to tweak the kind of Sprites you were able to compile (there were more than 5, of course) and the Mental Attribute used to resist Fading. Paragons, at the same cost of a Mentor Spirit, granted bonus dice on certain test (sometimes even outside the Matrix, like Idoru), with an additional psychological tick or whim for balance and flavour.

And this is nice. Really, you could keep it that way and everyone would be happy. But you could also go further and use these mechanics to really tweak the TMs concept. Instead of just swapping sprites and the Fading Attribute, you could also switch the way Mental Attributes are used to determine the Living Persona, or even grant Echoes and bonuses from start, balancing them by denying other features, weaknesses or by additional karma costs.

Some examples for new Streams in this fashion:

Somathematicians: These TMs are all about physical interaction, relying on their whole Body instead of their (sometimes pretty weak) Mind. You start with Skinlink and Somatic Resonance. However, whenever you take more than 1 Point of Matrix damage, the Damage is split between your Stun and and your Physical Monitor.

Dronomancers: This is the Stream for the typical Techno-Rigger. You start with the MMRI Echoe. Also, your Machine Sprites gain the Ability to jump into Drones with a Komplex Action (3 Marks needed), supplanting the native Pilot Programm. The Pilot Rating is equal to the Level of the Machine Sprite. However, Dronomancers can only compile Machine Sprites. (They can probably learn to compile additional sprites, but they need to use/waste Echoes for that).

Dreamscapers: These often very powerfull TMs perceive the Matrix as a Dreamworld. Dreamscapers are more reliant on their subconsciousness when using their Powers, so they use Intuition+Resonance instead of Willpower+Resonance to Resist Fading. They also start with two Echoes of their choice and a free Hitchhiker Programm to drag allies along in their Dreamworlds, and they get the +2 Bonus from Hot Sim VR on their Resonance Skill Checks as well.  When entering a Foundation, there is a much higher chance that the Foundation´s Paradigma is something the Dreamscaper can relate to. When unconscious or in REM-Sleep, Dreamscapers can still wander and hack the VR. (Probably a good candidate for an Echo?) However, when their Stun Monitor is filled, Matrix damage can overflow into physical Damage. But the biggest weakness of the Dreamscapers: They can´t percieve the Matrix in AR (at least not with their living Persona. However, the Matrix looks warped and false to them when percieved through AR Glasses and the like), and if they want to „wake up“ from VR, they need a Komplex Action and a Willpower+Intuition (3) Test, even if they are not link-logged.

These are three examples for „exotic“ TM Streams, but you could still add streams with less invasive changes in game mechanics (a.k.a Attribute and Sprite optimisation).  The Resonance Stream of a TM should describe how her powers and her own "version" of the matrix feel and look like. There could be a Stream that makes the TM percieve the Matrix more as the endless lines of ones and zeroes below the code, or a Stream where everything is about language and grammar (After all, Informatics are also rooted in linguistics) or even "religious" Streams where the Matrix seems as filled with Omens, Prophecies, Miracles ans Saints (In the german SR lore, there is a group of AI-hunting Christian Techno-Inquisitors in Westphalia Free-State, for example).

Just as with the Streams, Paragons could be used to grant these kind Echoes and bonuses from the start, probably with a smaller scope. And they can also add a lot of Fluff!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Darzil on (05:59:20/06-29-15)
First of all: Why do TMs need these high stats in every Mental Attribute and why is that a problem? Unlike Deckers, they can not reconfigure their Matrix Attributes and they also can not buff them from start with Cyberprogramms.

I suspect the design was that they could use Infusion of X to address that issue. The issue with that is they don't get the same sort of tools a Mage gets to reduce fading and avoid sustaining penalties, and the fading values are high.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (07:05:18/06-29-15)
Yeah, sustaining foci equivalent would allow technomancers to actually rely on Infusion of X to improve their attributes for the task at hand, while reagent equivalent would allow them to actually thread them on a consistent basis without fear of knocking themselves out. Compared to the Magician's ability to improve an attribute for all intents and purposes for Force - 3 Drain just goes to show how skewed the complex form is in my opinion; less utility for more cost seems like an odd paradigm.

The sample character technomancer, if one ignores the fact that he doesn't even have Infusion of X, would roll Software 4 + Resonance 5 [Level] to use Infusion of A/S/D/F. At minimum, he'd need to thread at Level 4/6/5/5 with a Fade resist of Resonance 5 + Willpower 5 against Fade Values of 5/7/6/6, respectively.

The sample combat mage character, if one also ignores the fact that he doesn't have any of the Increase Attribute spells needed, would roll Spellcasting 5 + Magic 6 [Force] to use Increase W/L/I/C. To affect the above technomancer he would need to at the very least cast at Force 4/6/5/5 with a Drain resist of Logic 5 + Willpower 4 against Drain Values of 2/3/2/2, respectively.

This to my mind perfectly illustrates how a technomancer is more limited in the use of his or her powers but is somehow required to pay more for using them. I also believe that a new book won't fix this basic inconsistency, unless the underlying issues are addressed through errata. No matter how many shiny new toys they get they will remain inherently limited because of these basic imbalances, and that is something I think is a shame indeed.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (17:19:03/06-29-15)


This to my mind perfectly illustrates how a technomancer is more limited in the use of his or her powers but is somehow required to pay more for using them. I also believe that a new book won't fix this basic inconsistency, unless the underlying issues are addressed through errata. No matter how many shiny new toys they get they will remain inherently limited because of these basic imbalances, and that is something I think is a shame indeed.

In many ways yes, and some very specific system ways no. Their increasers are stronger relative to what they do then their magic counter parts, (IE one hit is +1 stat instead of 2 hits). I'm not saying errata won't be necessary to fix it, but given how they keep trying to address technos I don't see that happening, the weakness primary lies within CFs, so fixing CFs will i think be the fastest way to fix the issue, there is the secondary problem of starting techno's sucking, but we have look at that about every way we can imo, so it will be fixed or it won't. I think we pasted the point of useful feedback a while back, but I'm happy to see the community excited about something.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Miri on (18:20:46/06-29-15)


This to my mind perfectly illustrates how a technomancer is more limited in the use of his or her powers but is somehow required to pay more for using them. I also believe that a new book won't fix this basic inconsistency, unless the underlying issues are addressed through errata. No matter how many shiny new toys they get they will remain inherently limited because of these basic imbalances, and that is something I think is a shame indeed.

In many ways yes, and some very specific system ways no. Their increasers are stronger relative to what they do then their magic counter parts, (IE one hit is +1 stat instead of 2 hits). I'm not saying errata won't be necessary to fix it, but given how they keep trying to address technos I don't see that happening, the weakness primary lies within CFs, so fixing CFs will i think be the fastest way to fix the issue, there is the secondary problem of starting techno's sucking, but we have look at that about every way we can imo, so it will be fixed or it won't. I think we pasted the point of useful feedback a while back, but I'm happy to see the community excited about something.

Core Page 288

The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits
scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum (any hits
that would increase the Attribute beyond its augmented
maximum are ignored). Each Attribute can only be affected
by a single Increase Attribute spell at a time.

So no.. it is an even boost.  Just the Technomancer has to pay more for it in terms of Fade and potential sustaining penalties.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: FST_Gemstar on (19:11:32/06-29-15)
This may have already been mentioned but going with technomancer relation with cyber/bioware, I wonder if some kind of Burnout Way type quality or echo would be nice for a technomancer. I think technomancers should still lose resonance with essence lost, but perhaps their 'ware is a little less disruptive to their system and function at a little better quality because of their more natural connection to tech/matrix. This will put in a decision for technomancers about the value or 'ware, just like magicians/adepts. Choosing ware has a cost to the very thing that makes you a technomancer (resonance, your innate connection to the matrix, less efficacy within the matrix [lower persona/device rating, more difficulty cultivating relationships with more powerful sprites]), but can have major perks depending on what you want to do. Being able to get standard ware that is treated like alphaware for essence loss (maybe even device rating?) could make cybered technomancer more of an option. Perhaps some more costs could be included to balance the decision for techomancers who become more mechanized.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (20:09:05/06-29-15)
I realize I suggested to allow the Living Persona to be based off of physical stats, but on further thinking this would be a terrible idea. Hackers need high log, wil, and int anyway to hack. And to need 3 high mental stats AND high physical stats...well, that's just impossible for any archetype.

But I really want ork and trolls to be amazing TMs (or at least good). The only thing I can think of to help them would be to allow a stream that makes their fade soak dice to be based off of a physical attribute rather than a mental one. This way they can hack just using the resonance rather than normal hacking. And with high bod or str they'd be able to soak the fading easier.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: FST_Gemstar on (22:36:31/06-29-15)
This is not as much an idea and I'm not sure how much this can change, but I have always felt weird about how skillful technomancers have to be to use/manipulate the matrix. I know Shadowrun simulates action through skill+attribute dicepools, so skills come into play, but the concept/mythology/mystique of the technomancer is that their connection to the Matrix is very natural and easy for them. I think the game tries to represent this through a resonance attribute, but because of the general game mechanics, it is just another attribute that has to have tied skills (Tasking) to do things meaningfully in the game. The problem with this is that technomancers don't all grow up wanting to be great hackers and studying computer engineering. They might not know they are technomancers or even have a word for what they can do until they are in their teens (maybe older?) What if they are really into life sciences, or athletics, or business, and all of the sudden, their technomancer powers become apparent. Super great that they are a technomancer, but manipulating the matrix has less utility for these characters after they have already developed skills.  In mechanics term, the characters have skills that aren't useful for matrix work that make technomancers the matrix wizards that they are purported to be. You might say that all shadowrunning technomancers are the ones that have matrix skills, but that seems unlikely. Even if creating characters with life modules, you'd still have to focus on all things tech from a young age to make a technomancer more viable, and not all technomancers are "born to hack."

 I wonder if a better simulation of some skills (perhaps the cracking group), would be to tie them directly to resonance. Technomancers don't have to know why they are good at hacking, or why their living persona is good at dealing out matrix damange, or why they can jam sensors or study these things, because they are technomancers they can. As I am typing, I think a cool solve to skill deficiency issues it just to give technomancers free cracking group equivalent to their resonance. If they are weaker resonance technomancers, they are less good at cracking, if they are high resonance, they are better. So a technomancer with resonance 3 would also have a cracking skill group of 3. Rolling mostly logic + cracking skill group for dice rolls can still make sense, or to be more off rules, technomancers would match cracking skills with resonance for their dicepool. I think I prefer keeping logic to simulate that while technomancers have natural ability to matrixy things, figuring out what to do to break into a host or steal a file still takes some thoughtfulness/analysis. This mechanic would also make essence loss cause a drop in cracking skills. Want to take 'ware to increase your logic? You are going to take a hit to your cracking dice pool in another way. Also, I would add that the only way to raise cracking skills beyond your resonance level is to train skills beyond them. If you have free cracking group at rating 3, you have to raise skills from 0 to 4 seperately (spending that 20 karma) to get a rating 4. The ratings are not additive. This would simulate the different kind of learning a technomancer would have to do to have higher skills than their innate, mysterious resonancy-abilities.  So a technomancer can have a low resonance or lose a lot of essence to 'ware, and then learn how to use the matrix more normally to hack/crack. Or, instead of raising cracking skills directly to become a better at cracking tasks, they can submerge and raise their resonance.

Technomancers would have to learn the skillful use of electronics skills, at least computer and hardware, the same way as everyone else. The only thing I am unsure about in this model is software. Tasking skills I am ok with technomancers having to learn, as it is unique skillset to them they way magicians learn to summon spirits no matter how magical they are. Also, the priority system already has some built in mechanics of giving free tasking skills to folks who emphasize resonance (A and B priorities) to simulate some of that natural skill or previous experience. The tasking group covers sprites, but another component of the technomancer repertoire are complex forms.  Deckers learn software, or commonly don't learn software because it doesn't often have much use to them,   to do different things than technomancers, which is weird to me. So one option would be that software skill is equal to resonance the same way cracking skills would be.  This seems too powerful to me. Another option would be to add software to the potential free skills a technomancers can get at character generation when taking Priority A or B. Maybe this would be good for builds that don't plan on having armies of sprites around (less need for registering), but want to fling those complex forms about like a matrix super wizard. It might also make sense that technomancers who start priority C, the weakest a technomancer can start, really doesn't have a natural knack for or history of using complex forms (or any Tasking for that matter), as they get no free skills. 

So... I actually may try to house rule or test some of these mechanics, but my changes would be:
1a. Technomancers get free Cracking skill group that stays equal with their Resonance. They increase if Resonance increases and decrease if Resonance Decreases.
1b. Technomancers cannot specialize in these free skills.
1c. If a Technomancer wants to raise Cracking skills beyond their Resonance Attribute, they must train the skill with full karma payment beyond that attribute. If this happens, then a Technomancer can take specializations in that skill.
2. Technomancers can choose Software as one of the free skill choices granted for Priority A or B

Looking at these changes, this doesn't look so complicated. These changes would also allow Technomancers a little more freedom in their builds. Not to always compare with Deckers, but Deckers aren't aways just good deckers, they are often Combat Deckers or Stealth Deckers or even Magical Deckers or Decker/Riggers. I mention this because the only other matrix archetype can "subclass" well. In fact, all of the other archetypes in Shadowrun can subclass. Simulating the naturalness of Technomancers in the matrix by giving free Cracking skills frees Technomancers to develop other areas of usefulness for their team while being the dedicated Matrix character in their group, or specializing in something non-matrixy (stealth/social/combat/biotech, etc.) while still being able to back up or support Matrix actions. I think this allows for usefulness and flexibility for Technomancers with various Resonance without becoming unfair or unbalanced, and better simulates the mythos of Technomancers as the Shadowrun Universe has described.



Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (04:55:52/06-30-15)
+1 to Gemstar.
I think granting TMs their full Resonance Attribute as Cracking would overdo it, and they don't do 1/2 anymore, but the concept is incredibly sound.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: bravelybravesirrobin on (12:15:02/06-30-15)
I realize I suggested to allow the Living Persona to be based off of physical stats, but on further thinking this would be a terrible idea. Hackers need high log, wil, and int anyway to hack. And to need 3 high mental stats AND high physical stats...well, that's just impossible for any archetype.

But I really want ork and trolls to be amazing TMs (or at least good). The only thing I can think of to help them would be to allow a stream that makes their fade soak dice to be based off of a physical attribute rather than a mental one. This way they can hack just using the resonance rather than normal hacking. And with high bod or str they'd be able to soak the fading easier.

I like this idea. Don't have much to elaborate on except that I like it, and that it would give TM's another niche deckers can't do as you could have a moderately punchy TM.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: korusef on (14:14:11/06-30-15)
TM are missing sprite with Software skill that could be used to disable data bombs.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (17:14:20/06-30-15)
Don't know if it got mentioned, since I just skimmed the posts, but I saw people suggesting to offset the current lack of TM power by lowering their priority to match that of aspected mages rather then full ones. Was skimming through Run Faster last night and noticed the Karma Build style had TMs at the same cost to buy as the aspected mage. Was this an over-site or is this why everyone is suggesting it. It would give a good merit argument to do so as a house rule for now till we get something official.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Flecchikun on (16:57:50/07-03-15)
Ok, my two shiny copper coins.

Technomancers are supposed to be the Shinobi of the Matrix, Ghosts that move hidden and unseen.
Deckers are Console Cowboys who kick in the data vault door and shoot the place up and try to get somewhere safe enough to jack out.

This is how they are presented in the main book (at least to my perception, your mileage may vary)

In practice however, they are the redheaded stepchild of the game.  Adept-Mages pushed all the hype about themselves off on the nerd, and well, the poor kid can't even take a punch, and will break his arm if he tries to swing back.

The rules for both Matrix users end up being the same, yes TMs have some very, very costly powers that are not fully spelled out, and the sprites they are expected to use are House ruled to be useless because GMs feel that if they allow the TM to have any edge over a Sammy or (heaven Forbid) a Mage-Adept then it's now unfair.  But in the end a class that is solely Karma driven, weighted against mages for powers, and expected to stand in the same arena as a Money driven one will always fail.

The reason is simple, they are all hype, no show.

They are given the Restrictions of Mages, but none of the benefits.

They have MADS, are Skill Intensive, and Require a Special attribute forcing the player to triage where they want to never be able to shore up, as Karma is a premium resource, newyen is like dirt.

The powers they are expected to use in the same manner as mages are not worth the risk most times, as the cost given for them (difficulty of action, resistance roll, drain etc) are far greater than a mage's power of equivalent type, also the powers are shorter in duration and lesser in effect.

The Powers that emulate Decker Programs must be bought individually and are due to limits on how many powers you can have not worth it.


My bullet Point List:

Paragons, lord all-mighty do I want me my paragons!

TM versons of Traditions (ways to mitigate the Hellish costs of CFs)

TMs should just have Skin Link (I know others have said this, but one more vote can't hurt.) They should also not need a Smartlink, as it now does nothing but take data that the weapon collects, and feeds to the implant for translation from code to AR, which the TM lives in.  As with any other "This feeds to AR" type implant, they should not need it.  They are it.  They can already interpret computational run-time code, they should not need an Echo or an implant to do this, this is counter to the concept.

My List of Things they should not Need (Because if you don't spell it out):
Skin Link
Smart Link
Image Link


If they cannot innately understand computational run-time code then they cannot exist and this is a moot point.

If a power is going to have a nasty drain/cost it had better be worth it, aka be easier to invoke than a spell or impossible to resist.  If not, address drain, make it in line with the Risk/Reward.

Do not be vague when it comes to what a complex form or Sprite Power can or cannot do, Gms will always choose the most restrictive way to look at it.

Give Machine Sprites the ability to buff weapons, it's a combat perk to help TMs even the score when things get Dicey in meatland , they will still be behind the combat monsters in effectiveness because they cannot offset the penalties of getting ware unlike mages/adepts.

I like the steps taken with Pain Editor, it is starting an almost "Physadept" type TM tree, shaped by your Initiations.  More along those lines for those who want to overclock the meat.  This is close to the "Path of Neo" but as long as we don't have "Matrix Initiative as RL" we are fine.

An RL booster at a cost to Matrix Init/reaction while active may be a good idea.  It's a trade off, and should require the extra die of matrix initiative are a prereq.  You trade Matrix Dice (say max two) for RL dice.  It has clear costs, and clear gains.  Make it last X so long, not be dismissible, so it makes you choose to use it rather than it just being a no brainier.  Not sustained, as it has it's own duration.

Make the CF that Emulates Deck Programs be one CF, that or just make it so TMs can just Emulate Deck programs, as all they did before was give a small bonus to actions, now they are the only way to do some things, which I feel is against the intention of the game.

K.I.S.S:  TMs need three Primary (or A Choices) to even start off on marginal footing with a Decker, Stats due to MADs, Resonance because anything less than a 6 is shooting yourself in the foot with the way the mechanics are set, and skills because you will never have enough and you'll never get enough Karma to fix any of the things you did not focus on.  Mage-Adepts the most powerful things in the game, do not even need this much hoop jumping.

My solution to the OMGWTFBBQMADs:
Make the TM's biodeck rating be based soley on Resonance, not on their Stats, this removes one of the issues, while yes a TM will want High stats to be able to perform the tasks expected (second rate slicer), it should not be an imperative.

This puts them now on the same scale as the Decker, as Resonance is their "Money" stat at Start. Now they and the Decker share the same priority issues, and it's less of a worry.

Treat the Biodeck like a real deck, let them slot "programs" for it, they may choose (yes just choose) a number equal to resonance to be considered "active" and they can, like Deckers take the appropriate action to swap out. They Cannot, however use Agents, they may however drop a Sprite there instead, to serve in the same role.

Make the Biodeck scale with Resonance and when it would break the threshold of what Decks are able to do, give it other perks.  TMs are supposed to be scary shit, but by the rules they are a joke, they are hardly likely to survive using a CF against you, and they are Third Rate Deck Punchers.  Sprites and Dronomancy are their only options and GMs want to nerfbat sprites and Drones are better in the hand of Riggers.

I do not think the following is a good Idea:
The Path of Neo, lets just let Keauno Have his fun, and lets be original.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: SoulGambit on (05:48:06/07-04-15)
So I realized that my last post may not have been the most helpful thing. This is going to be a bit of a wall of text, but I hope it strikes home.

I love Technomancers, and I think a lot of other people do to. I think the people who are the most jaded love them a whole lot. They are, in a way, a microcosm of everything that makes the Shadowrun universe what it is. They blend magic and technology, man and machine. From the moment they emerge they are no longer Johnny, Susy, and Sally. They are the Machine, they are a resource, they are the other. Feared and exploited, the Matrix doesn't ask these people who they are or what they want out of life, it Resonates the siren song and smothers them in the depths of its foundation. Sometimes being loved sucks, but there's still nothing better and more worth it than being loved.

Mechanically, Technomancers offer a puzzle. I suspect that a non-insignificant portion of the Shadowrun playerbase gains validation by obtaining, exorcising and demonstrating system mastery. Technomancers are in this wonderfully unique position where they are extremely difficult to build but iconic and useful enough that doing so is worth it. A lot of the jadedness I suspects comes from either those who tried to play a Technomancer and failed and those who (subconsciously or otherwise) use the jaded zeitgeist concerning Technomancers to feel more awesome for being able to make even that work. That isn't an inherently bad thing, but given the context of the thread that may be an unhelpful thing.

All that said to circle around to what, in the context of a wider playerbase, I feel added content regarding Technomancers should address.

Requested Design Goals
The Book I'd Like to See
Going to back up and talk a bit about the outline and presentation I'd like to see. I'm assuming that this book is going to follow a format similar to Data Trails and Chrome Flesh. I'm also going to assume it'll be about 120 pages, give or take. I could see as low as 80 and still doing this well.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dinendae on (09:35:11/07-04-15)
It's been mentioned before by others, but I'll add my vote for having Streams, Paragons, and reducing the fading numbers a bit.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: FST_Gemstar on (18:08:01/07-04-15)
Thanks for articulating design of a new text that I think so many would appreciate!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (18:24:37/07-04-15)
I've thought of something else that could help technomancers. All this talk of attributes and ability to hack things isn't really going to help them so much as being able to use the Matrix to empower his allies. Lemme explain.

In the game of shadow run there is three worlds meeting together. Matrix. Magic and Meat. Now one of these worlds is not like the others, one of these worlds is not the same. Which you might ask? Why Matrix of course! Not only is it unusually slow to do anything (It isn't, but the other two worlds move at the same speed as the matrix world, with actions that consume a smaller amount of a pass) but its  the only world any average joe can safely ignore, by just turning his wireless off.

Couple this with the Technomancer being the only one unable to augment his abilities in the meat world in a natural way (IE: Lopping off his arm and getting a super high agility gun arm, as Deckers Riggers and Street sams are more naturally inclined to do.) and you get a steaming pile of nothing very effective. Now there is some ideas of mitigating this by creating a CF that forces wireless on, or the like, but I think we could take this one step further, but in the other direction.

Allow the Technomancer the ability to buff his allies with more than a machine sprite. Who cares if the enemies wireless is off, if you can make it so that smartgun is now preforming at a much higher ability? Ideally, this should be something that is really Technomancer, but does have some small boosts to a decker's ability too. The reason being is that you could have teams that run more wireless, but not every single one of them is supported by a technomancer, though the technomancer can do it better than a decker.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (08:51:35/07-06-15)
As Chrome Flesh has come out (and people are already looking anxiously at Rigger 5), there´s something that needs to be addressed badly, especially for the TM Supplement:

Please, Please, Please dont shove another 50+ Pages of CFD Fluff in the Book. Contain it at minimum level.

It´s a cool storyline, we get it. It´s affecting everything, we get it. Its somehow Matrix-Technomancy-KI-related and even uses some of the mechanics, we get it. But please put that stuff in designated Plotline and Kampaign Sourcebooks.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (08:58:45/07-06-15)
Oh yeah totally. Lets see.. Books with Rules for CFD that I know of

Stolen Souls
Lockdown
Data Trails

And a lot of it is has been just copy pasta from the previous books.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: korusef on (09:53:50/07-06-15)
Some variation on these?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DatajackTheFirst on (10:56:57/07-06-15)
I posted some house rules sometime back which I won't repeat here, and also discussed this idea with Jason Hardy at Gencon last year (Which he really liked). Basically the idea is the a technomancer can use Resonance with all technology, not just the matrix.  Since TMs  use basically the same rules as Magicians, they can be given a list of Adept like "Powers" they can buy that mimic cyberware/bioware.  Just like an Adept/Magician can get around the restrictions of cyberware/bioware, for example, by using the Improved Reflexes Power or Spell, a TM should have some mechanic to also get around their rescrictions on the use cyberware/bioware as well. In fact, since Resonance works on technology it makes much more sense for them to be able to do this.  I would just convert all Echos to these Resonance Powers (and add a bunch more) and then give the TM a "Power Point" when they get a new level of Submersion.  And give them a number of these Resonance Power Points = Resonance at character creation just like an Adept.   I would keep these "Resonance Powers" to be limited only to things technological.  If it can be done with Cyberware/Bioware then the TM should have powers to emulate these.  This would also allow a player to not only have a "Resonance Decker" at character creation, but they could also create a Resonance Rigger or Resonance Street Samurai archetype as well.  It would open up the TM to so many new options.  TM is a very cool concept and I think something like this would take them to the next step and make them very flexible and very fun to play.  Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: ShadowMaster on (02:20:07/07-07-15)
Simrig Complex form
Each success gives one sense (Players choice) with emotion being one as well.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: living on (19:52:26/07-13-15)
A month ago i was a little technomancer. i got less dice for rigging then a rigger (because i could not afford good reaction and only got the rig echo lvl 1 cause i had to take skin link) and got less dice for hacking then a decker (cause i laked specialisation, cerebralbooster and programms)(and he can be a full time sam beside). but i got 3 things running for me. i could be a rigger with a sleaze attribut, i could use puppeteer (only with edge because drain kills, and i only got 3 edges [the hacker got 7]) and i could snoop devices all the time thx to static vail. So overall i got a lot of disadvanteges but i could survive by really hard trying.

After Chrome and Flesh the rigger and the decker got like 4-6 dices more for theire actions (nanits and intuition booster). the only way to prevent the gap (which is already huge) from getting bigger is to cyber myself. now i save up like 400k money (and cant afford any new drone or weapon mount) and like 150 karma (to emerge and raise resonanz again) to keep up with them. before i gather all the nuyen and karma i can't use any of it (because droping and raising resonance part by part would the karma cost increase to 200 karma). and im fucking stuck in the system and really pissed.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: FrowningMirror on (21:09:08/07-16-15)
Datatrails had streams for dissonance but no normal resonance streams.....

It would be a step in the right direction if we had 1 or even 2 pages dedicated of streams.

Mainly though, technomancers need a niche. And early too. In SR 4 they only got their best unique stuff after their version of initiation, the main critique back then. I wouldn't mind if a lot of this stuff was available as something technomancers could get with just karma at character generation to get them rolling into action.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (22:35:07/07-16-15)
Looking over some of the old 3rd ed Otaku stuff and I saw something that could be added. Back then Otaku had three sources of power. Sprites, which have been transferred to Technos pretty my exactly. Complex forms that where used to emulate complex programs became the Technos "Spells". But Otaku also had Channels, which allowed them access to the basic functions of the Matrix. Others have suggested adept like powers or a permanent effect that can be bought for the same price as a CF, why not make these Channels. They could also be used to make a more Technoadept style TM rather then the Cybershaman
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: ShadowMaster on (07:37:15/07-17-15)
Widgets should be brought back but as something similar to enchanting. Resonance constructs that you can spend karma on to bind to yourself and make permanent.
This would allow for sustaining widget, complex form widget, fading widget, compiling widget, decompiling widget, registering widget, echo widgets, etc.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: tytalan on (09:59:53/07-17-15)
Otaku also had deamons which were a step above your sprites I think these should be brought back as well give the Techno's some short of familier buying like a mage can
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: korusef on (10:30:58/07-17-15)
Otaku also had deamons which were a step above your sprites I think these should be brought back as well give the Techno's some short of familier buying like a mage can

+1
I want my electronic Kerberos ...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: rayous on (11:17:27/07-22-15)
I would like the interaction between being a technomancer and having cyberware spelled out. Mages can get benefits from cyber eyes, can technomancers benefit from anything other than stat adjustments?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: gilga on (07:56:28/07-23-15)
I think that technos should be priced lower on priority. (to use the adept row) it will solve many of the build problems. Right now they are priced like mages and it is too much for what they can do.

They also need a way to temporarily lift their limits, to give their builds a bit more flexibility. So a low intuition technomage for example still do sleaze operations. My suggestion is to use their mental limit as the limit of every operation a techno perform in the matrix using his persona. I think it is very simple and gives a lot more freedom in playing a techno. Right now the common sense is that if you do not soft cap all mental stats you cripple your techno. (it implies Attributes A as almost a must.)  If we simply use the mental limit they are free to customize their characters a lot more.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Darzil on (08:08:16/07-23-15)
Whilst I largely agree the limits are a pain, I'd suggest reducing fading on the increase attribute complex forms, and give a tool to sustain them at low levels without penalty

My Will 4, Intuition 4, Logic 6(8), attributes D, Decker has a mental limit of 9, which makes me think mental limit as limit for all hacking attempts is a bit overpowered compared to Decks.

I'd be quite tempted just to suggest +1 or even +2 to limit (and not matrix attribute) for Technomancers. It's not as if limits higher than 6 or so at chargen levels are going to be hit often. (There is a reason that Sony deck is a trap for deckers)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (09:32:42/07-23-15)
We also need clarification if complex forms can affect the living persona and sprites. CFs that hit devices can work on devices that are running personas since it clearly says that. But what about persona's that don't have devices?

Also, allow 'ware to effect the living persona, like data jacks. Its iconic that former Otaku should get some benefit for having data jacks.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: korusef on (10:18:20/07-23-15)
We also need clarification if complex forms can affect the living persona and sprites. CFs that hit devices can work on devices that are running personas since it clearly says that. But what about persona's that don't have devices?

Also, allow 'ware to effect the living persona, like data jacks. Its iconic that former Otaku should get some benefit for having data jacks.

Quote from: SR5 p.252
A complex form with a Device target can also be used to target a persona.
Personas are personas, doesn't matter whether they run on devices or not. Are you suggesting you cannot Resonance Spike other TMs?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: DeathStrobe on (11:37:42/07-23-15)
In fact that is what I'm saying. You might not be able to infuse or defuse Matrix attributes or Puppeteer on a TM/Sprite/AI too.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Zweiblumen on (13:26:34/07-23-15)
Quote from: CRB p. 252 Resonance Library
Each complex form entry has a Target describing what it works on. A complex form with a Device target can also be used to target a persona.

Doesn't say anything about that persona needing to be device based.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (14:35:39/07-23-15)
My suggestion is to use their mental limit as the limit of every operation a techno perform in the matrix using his persona. I think it is very simple and gives a lot more freedom in playing a techno. Right now the common sense is that if you do not soft cap all mental stats you cripple your techno. (it implies Attributes A as almost a must.)  If we simply use the mental limit they are free to customize their characters a lot more.

Nice one! The Living Persona´s Matrix Stats would still be used for some crucial checks (Staying hidden, Initiative, Data Spike Damage, Resistance...), but not for setting these way too low limits on every action.

And if you don´t want to meddle too much with the existing mechanics, you could also make this into a Positive Quality for TMs.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: halflingmage on (14:03:23/07-26-15)
I think may people dislike technomancers because they are not as good at straight decking as a pure decker.  I am personally ok with this, as long as they have compensating strength in other areas.  Sprites go a long way toward this, but are not a solution for the problem all on their own.  I would really love to see in a technomancer book-

1)Further explanation and clarification of technomancer powers, especially on handling and commanding sprites(machine sprites I am looking at you), with examples.  Everyone really needs to be on the same page.

2) Complex forms are generally weak and/or cause staggering amounts of drain for what you get.  Rewrite and revisit existing, and add more.

3)Recognition that technomancers are probably the hardest build to pull off direct out of character creation, and they generally suck nachos at everything but matrix.  A resource A Decker by comparison  can have a level of wired reflexes and a cyber arm or two if they go with a moderate deck, making them much more of a threat in meatspace.  They also need fewer skills than the technomancer does, allowing for a secondary skill set or some physical combat options.  I am ok with this is the technomancer gets compensation, and not just after 150 karma spent of advancement.  Right now I don't think the compensation is fully there. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (11:43:42/07-28-15)
Ok i copy some you guys (sorry) but add more (i didn't have time to read all of you soory):
1.   More Echoes! Look at the Echoes from 4th Editions "Unwired"-Rulebook.  Biowires, Acceleration, Mesh Reality and the all new pain editor echo...  Making them some what adoptomancers.
2.   A CF that makes the TM less visible to wireless Tools (cameras, smartlinl and so on) applying result as a negative modifier (up  to the bonus the tool give)
3.   A CF tactical cyberprogram (to be in a tacnet like bonus pool)
4.   Paragons!
5.   Nbr of (resonnance) Widgets (mini programs, smartlink, virtual pets, help for maintening CF or sprites, etc…) Widget as core slots for technomancers. They may be used to puppet some drones « like a rigger » by using (indice of the tool) of them. And they return to techno there versatility. Nomber may be augmeted through echo or quality. Or maybe advance core widget for special advanced uses via echo.
6.   Transform the resonnace program in a way it cans be used for select (resonnace or submersion grade) program(s) during Resonnance+Computer minutes
7.   Upgrade the resonce comlink echo with an other echo to use (resonnace or submersion grade) resonance abilities with the link
8.   The Skinlink Echo can be use on item WITHOUT any jack… (want to say it it’s better than trodes)
9.   Resonnance defrag (sleep 3 hours a day)
10.   Resonance buffer (add 1 box on matrix condition monitor used before natural condition monitor, clean up after reboot) max 5 time.
11.   Free Sprites
12.   Dissonants Sprites
13.   Ally Sprites
14.   Sprites Swarm (machine sprite swarm too)
15.   New sprite : paladin, sniffers, tank, deep and so on.
16.   Resonnances Hosts : Constructs of group of tencho with the ability to share CF or even echo (through echos)
17.   Dronomancers !
18.   Technomancer was very versatile in 4.0 but « deckers » weren’t now it’s completely reverse…
19.   Resonances pets (sniffing dogs, sleazing cat’s and so on) for technopetmasters (yeah look like resomon)
20.   Techno-jutsu : Technomancers using there habilities (specialized martial art) to destroy cyber in hand to hand fight with street sam bricking their ware while punching their faces.
21.   Resonance mist : echo to add resonnance or submersion grade to sleaze for hide purpose
22.   Electro sens : ability to use a new perception type like sharks (an have an assensing like ability, based on neuronal changed with magic, cyber bio etc.) (buyable as echo OR quality)
23.   Resonance ghost trunk echo used in first time to sweep data trial, then resonnances trail, and at end having a permanent resonnance clone ally (merge with an ally sprite)
24.   Echo to make electrical damage with hand (1 time a day by submersion grade or using « stun damage trail » as battery to this ability)
25.  A "Power trix" echo available after having bued all overclock echo (and maybe other) giving a new FC powertrix, that enable de mancer to add his grade level to all her trix limits and all dommage they give or take BUT the grade level his substract to the sleaze value for purpose of hiding in trix (yeah NEO style!) with a duration of the fc dice result round

All my ideas free of charges, and sorry for writing mistakes.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Telaos on (13:13:58/07-29-15)
So I am relatively new to Shadowrun, but I have already fallen in love with the Technomancer concept.  I like many of the ideas listed, but there are a few of my own or reinforcements of needed things (sorry if I repeat or miss something that was in other books!)

1.  "Counterspelling" - If the Technomancer is supposed to be the mage of the matrix, why is there no counter options?  A Techmo should be able to "see" an incoming attack program and help!  So some functionality like the magic users counterspell should be available.  This would also give "Decompile" another use and make it feel more like a valuable skill (I know, ANOTHER skill for Techmo's). 

2. Sprites - Buffing them(aka Echos).  One of the primary reasons I believe Techmos feel weak compared to Deckers is that Decks can have improved stats + programs + buff to Deckers own stats.  Sprites on the other hand can only get more powerful if the Techmo makes SIGNIFICANT investments in Willpower (very hard to raise above 7 or 8 IMO without drugs), REALLY SIGNIFICANT investments in Resonance (Submersion cost + Attribute cost) and more investment in Compile/Registering.  You must put huge investments in yourself to get mild improvements in Sprites right now.  Give Techmos echos for Sprites that improve the Sprites stats or give the Sprites some special actions that can really help other Sprites.  Echos that give MORE TASKS.  I think that would be really helpful.  Also since Techmos and Sprites are linked mentally, commanding them should be faster than a simple action. Maybe command 2 sprites for a simple action or somehow it's a free action that is limited to a certain number. 

3.  Resisting Fade - Magic users can buff their attributes a bit easier than Techmos can to help resist and Fade seems to hit harder in general than Drain.  This always seemed backward to me since Mages can basically kill someone IRL while a Techmo has a much harder time being anywhere near that dangerous.  A simple Echo or even Streams could help balance this. 

4.  Cyber implants - Give Techmos and even Mages the use of 1 or 2 (if I could be greedy) points of Essence and not hose their casting stat.  Like, anything please. 

5.  Cold VR aka manipulating the Matrix quickly without passing out.  Why is there no middle ground between AR and hot VR for Techmos, the supposed most INTIMATELY connected beings to the Matrix?  A cold VR-ish mode could allow a Techmo to act more quickly than AR but suffer perception wise in both IRL and the Matrix. 

6.  Resisting Matrix Damage - Since Matrix damage can be doubly harmful to Techmos, I really believe anything that gives dice to resisting biofeedback damage should in some way help Techmos resist Matrix damage as well. 

I really like the idea of Technomancers being weird and generally unsettling to most people.  Please keep giving them options that allow them to not hack in the traditional sense but do nonsensical things that turn out to accomplish useful tasks in the Matrix.  Best of luck on the book!  (SOON PLZ)  :)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Bulshock on (23:42:31/07-30-15)
With the stuff in Chrome Flesh regarding augments and Technomancers something along the line of interfacing with their implants in certain ways would be good.  A Stream or similar.  Pretty much anything else I can suggest has already been suggested (turn wireless on, become invisible to electronics (or hidden from) in meatspace, better Program Echo (my Technomancer wants to do Foundation stuff, but that wouldn't be fun for the group to do it by myself, but at the same time not going to spend an Echo on Hitchhiker, which means it won't happen), etc.).  The last thing Technomancers need is more Echos that feel like either a tax or worthless.  As someone who's played a Technomancer for the last year and half in their group, I can say that it currently feels like I've been spending karma just to try to catch up to what a Decker can do at CC.  Sure, I do things differently then a Decker, but even with Sprites I still can't stand up to them.  Even now, being noticed by a Rating 4-5 Host that then launches IC would be enough to make her want to jack out right then and there.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (00:10:40/07-31-15)
The primary problem is that the Matrix is largely ignorable in the heat of battle. You can't ignore bullets flying at you, but an angry decker trying to hack your stuff can be shut down with a free action.

Combine that with Technomancers hyperfocus in Matrix related things.. and you get the picture.

Basically the most improtant thing that needs to be done in the matrix is somehow allowing a Technomancer and Decker provide more bonuses for their allies (The technomancer even more) that you want to have someone attempting to hack things while in combat just to shut down those matrix threats that are making the meatworld more dangerous or whatever.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (06:47:37/08-01-15)
Maybe a Complex Form that emulates Internal Router?
While were at it , a cheap quality that allows a TM to half  sustaining penalties of CFs with a combined level up to the qualities rating.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (11:33:24/08-03-15)
Maybe a Complex Form that emulates Internal Router?
While were at it , a cheap quality that allows a TM to half  sustaining penalties of CFs with a combined level up to the qualities rating.

Nice one. But make it double :)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (19:38:46/08-03-15)
Then you could just get focused concentration.
Which you still can, so I assume you'd stack those.  ;)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (19:40:56/08-03-15)
Well, there is a drug that allows awakened to sustane at half the normal.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (21:28:18/08-03-15)
16 pages of info... TL;DR  ;D

Just a few things off the top of my head.

- Smartlink would be awesome, some way for a TM to talk directly to their gun without needing Eyeware or implants.

- TM Foci. Somebody already wrote some house rules for some (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18RtU6WWt-uQ_F29Bg8QV5H0PxAu43mhtgfhtsJwkqPY/pub), basing them almost entirely off Magic Foci.

- More Sprites, there were quite a few variants in the SR4 stuff.

- Reduce Fading on pretty much everything. Otherwise you have to Edge every Puppeteer use to avoid killing yourself in the process.

- Clearly define things like Resonance Veil and Resonance Channel.
- - Res Veil says "something happens" which could literally be anything. I've had some GMs admit they think it's within the realm of possibility for me to convince an ATM it "thought it saw" my bank account full of money, so it would gladly fill my Credstick to the top. Now I'm walking around with a Credstick full of cash that came from nowhere. Or at least being able to convince the cash register at checkout, that the empty Credstick you slotted is really full of funds. You get the basket full of goods, and the store is unaware until after you've driven away and dropped the power.
- - Res Channel feels somewhat wasted. There's so much fluff about the Resonance, how it's some mystical layer of data that connects all digital devices together. Which, if you were directing traffic through the Resonance, would theoretically mean you could communicate with devices anywhere. Perhaps even connecting with devices that have their usual wireless communication disabled. May be an interesting idea... even if you had to raise it up to an Echo. I'd definitely take an Echo that let me connect to devices that are otherwise "offline".

- I saw that some others had mentioned it already, but the Echoes need a buff as well. Nobody wants to go through the ordeal of Submergence, paying all that Karma (even when you account for the typo in the cost) if all they're getting is +1 to a single ASDF rating.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: korusef on (17:29:52/08-04-15)
Echo for Resonance Projection
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: TrueMisfit on (15:21:21/08-05-15)
The only thing I want them to fix about TMs is to clarify whether or not the cost for submersion is correct or not.

I know some people hand wave the cost and make it the same as initiation, but I have kept it as it is written in the book.  Catalsyt has had plenty of time to say something about the situation, but they haven't.  This had lad me to believe that it isn't a typo and is in fact the new cost.

I'd just like, for the sake of every other player, for this to be officially cleared up.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Miri on (17:50:06/08-05-15)
The only thing I want them to fix about TMs is to clarify whether or not the cost for submersion is correct or not.

I know some people hand wave the cost and make it the same as initiation, but I have kept it as it is written in the book.  Catalsyt has had plenty of time to say something about the situation, but they haven't.  This had lad me to believe that it isn't a typo and is in fact the new cost.

I'd just like, for the sake of every other player, for this to be officially cleared up.

Does anyone actually play a Technomancer in your game? Cause I would retire any Technomancer I was playing in your game in a heartbeat when I hear that.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: UnLimiTeD on (20:14:14/08-05-15)
It's in the missions Errata:
Quote
Shouldn’t the cost for Submersion for technomancers be the same as Initiation for magical characters?
Yes. Submersion (p. 257, SR5) should cost 10 + (Grade x 3).
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Kincaid on (20:37:16/08-05-15)
The core book is wrong.  Hopefully, we'll get that on letterhead soon.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: TrueMisfit on (18:52:47/08-06-15)
It's in the missions Errata:
Quote
Shouldn’t the cost for Submersion for technomancers be the same as Initiation for magical characters?
Yes. Submersion (p. 257, SR5) should cost 10 + (Grade x 3).

Isn't the missions errata superseded by the official errata, which doesn't say anything about Submersion?
The only thing I want them to fix about TMs is to clarify whether or not the cost for submersion is correct or not.

I know some people hand wave the cost and make it the same as initiation, but I have kept it as it is written in the book.  Catalsyt has had plenty of time to say something about the situation, but they haven't.  This had lad me to believe that it isn't a typo and is in fact the new cost.

I'd just like, for the sake of every other player, for this to be officially cleared up.

Does anyone actually play a Technomancer in your game? Cause I would retire any Technomancer I was playing in your game in a heartbeat when I hear that.
Yeah, I have two actually.  The cost isn't that bad, just more of inconvenient.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (19:26:43/08-06-15)
If it doesn't say anything about it, then it hasn't made any changes to what the missions errata is. Thus Missions Errata is on top.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Miri on (22:46:36/08-06-15)
It's in the missions Errata:
Quote
Shouldn’t the cost for Submersion for technomancers be the same as Initiation for magical characters?
Yes. Submersion (p. 257, SR5) should cost 10 + (Grade x 3).

Isn't the missions errata superseded by the official errata, which doesn't say anything about Submersion?
The only thing I want them to fix about TMs is to clarify whether or not the cost for submersion is correct or not.

I know some people hand wave the cost and make it the same as initiation, but I have kept it as it is written in the book.  Catalsyt has had plenty of time to say something about the situation, but they haven't.  This had lad me to believe that it isn't a typo and is in fact the new cost.

I'd just like, for the sake of every other player, for this to be officially cleared up.

Does anyone actually play a Technomancer in your game? Cause I would retire any Technomancer I was playing in your game in a heartbeat when I hear that.
Yeah, I have two actually.  The cost isn't that bad, just more of inconvenient.

Not that bad?! 30 Karma for first rank of Submersion as per the Core book no errata?  How much Karma is being given out in each run?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Telaos on (01:18:46/08-08-15)
Also, I would love if there was a way for Technomancers to directly interact with Hosts, which isn't really possible to do in 5th ed. right now(except suppression).  It would give them more uniqueness from Deckers and continue in their weird ways theme.  Nothing too crazy, maybe a CF that made a host see you as friendly for a Combat turn or two, or lower it's alert status, spoof input from IC's or spiders,  or maybe even just talk to it.  Hosts receive and send massive amounts of data, have crazy algorithms running around in them, ect.  It seems a shame not to have some way to interact with all that. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Nebulous on (20:29:35/08-09-15)
It's in the missions Errata:
Quote
Shouldn’t the cost for Submersion for technomancers be the same as Initiation for magical characters?
Yes. Submersion (p. 257, SR5) should cost 10 + (Grade x 3).

Isn't the missions errata superseded by the official errata, which doesn't say anything about Submersion?
The only thing I want them to fix about TMs is to clarify whether or not the cost for submersion is correct or not.

I know some people hand wave the cost and make it the same as initiation, but I have kept it as it is written in the book.  Catalsyt has had plenty of time to say something about the situation, but they haven't.  This had lad me to believe that it isn't a typo and is in fact the new cost.

I'd just like, for the sake of every other player, for this to be officially cleared up.

Does anyone actually play a Technomancer in your game? Cause I would retire any Technomancer I was playing in your game in a heartbeat when I hear that.
Yeah, I have two actually.  The cost isn't that bad, just more of inconvenient.

Not that bad?! 30 Karma for first rank of Submersion as per the Core book no errata?  How much Karma is being given out in each run?

I'm one of the technos TrueMisfit's game. While I do agree that the cost of submersion is more than an inconvenience, I am having fun as a techno.  Yes, I do wish it was cheaper.  Yes, I have looked and shown the arguments about technos to TrueMisfit.  I know the pain of having to hoard 30+ karma, but I have agreed to wait and see what this book shall bring to technos.  But all of that aside, I'm still having fun, and that's all that matters to me atm.

Now, back to the topic.  I'd love to see clarification of resonance veil, a better means of dealing with fading, more complex forms, this stream and paragon stuff I've heard about, maybe physical Resonance based foci, and more Resonance Realms worth visiting other than just the Grand Archive.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: danny.slag on (21:56:26/08-10-15)
Sounds to me like if you boil down most of the responses it comes to wanting really powerful/unique abilities in exchange for the deep investment technomancers require. Able to do things deckers can't or better in same that really justify how many sacrifices elsewhere you need to technomance.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sendaz on (08:08:42/08-11-15)
Now that Ms. Veeres is off the TM book project, do we have any idea who is still on this?

I assume Mr. Stangel is probably still chipping away on it, but just curious what other talent we can expect to see in the credits, possibly some new blood?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: McGuffin on (17:49:47/08-12-15)
More interesting would be to know if the entire thread (plus it's siblings on dumpshock and the german forum) will be obsolete now that Yue is out of the picture.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: MawileParty on (15:29:19/08-13-15)
Hopefully this thread won't be discarded. I'd hate to have a book made up of 7 chapters of CFD fluff with no rules.

[spoiler]
Do everything that a decker can do - and then do things that the decker cannot.

Don't forget that Deckers still do something that Technos can't: Cyber. Just like how Street Sams can use cyber with impunity while adepts can't.

I'm not a huge mechanics expert, so I could easily be wrong with what I say so take it with a grain of salt.

[spoiler]But technos are basically forced to be super specialized, but even then they don't seem to do as well as a more generalist combat-decker. They are forced into smaller scope without as much of a return.

Between adepts and street sams, Adepts are also specialized but they have a lot of options too. They can get powers that emulate some of the more exotic bits of metal, and skill boosts that let them go beyond what most cybered samurais get. So while they are more specialized and have to commit to what they specialize in, they (in my experience, remember I am not a optimization genius) seem to be able to do better in specializing that a sam.

I'd like to see that same dichotomy with Technomancers and other matrix users (hackers/riggers/dronomancers), in that they are better at specializing and using risk reward (aka fading for powerful effects that mundanes can never use), but not as good at having a wide scope (combining two archtypes and doing both fairly well). I mean, if a Technomancer can't reconfigure, then she should at least be able to do much better in her locked-in specialty.[/spoiler]


Skinlink should be a core ability (i'd also add in that they also have the innate equivalent of the Wrapper power to change icons outside the basic matrix parameters..I think it makes fun roleplay)

That could still have some neat upgrades. Maybe an Echo that lets a person have a 20 meter direct connection radius if they succeed some rolls or something, literally reaching out via the wireless mojo magic to form 'direct connections'.

In the current Cannon, Techno's are seen as huge boogie men, but compared to your average wizard Techno's have way less ability to harm folks. Which leads to a strange but very direct disconnect between the story and the system reality.

I'm pretty sure that's because they are 'new' and thus scary. I would like to see the panic subside though, since in game terms it makes being a technomancer complete ass. Imagine going on a run and people being pissed when you CANT hack the interwebs and just take over the corporate facility with a flick of your wrist, just because they have completely unrealistic expectations.

Also in terms of fluff, I'd love to see a chapter on Horizon and how they've been trying to deal with the backlash from that whole Vegas thing.



I really think techno's and wireless bonuses are two great tastes that can taste great together.

That's... a really cool idea. It'd be neat if you could figure out how to implement it.

I still have issue with TM's being able to be addicted to hot sim. They can't EVER experience cold sim, so it just seems odd to me that they can become addicted to something they've ALWAYS experienced that way.

Technomancers hate no-coverage zones. Being addicted would just make it worse.

Also, don't use faux french in your fluff posts. The Danielle De La Mar stuff in Data Trails had my french buddy on the floor laughing at how ridiculous it was.

Also on the topic of Data Trails. Please have a usable index with meaningful chapter names and a working index, so I can actually find things.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (21:16:28/08-13-15)
What happened to Amy Veeres´ involvement?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Wakshaani on (22:14:57/08-16-15)
What happened to Amy Veeres´ involvement?

Last I heard, it was still her baby. She's good people.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Beta on (12:34:07/08-17-15)
What happened to Amy Veeres´ involvement?

On Dumpshock, someone copied in something she'd apparently posted on 4chan, stating that as of the night of Aug 1st she was no longer under contract with Catalyst, and that she didn't know what would be happening with Echoes and Mirages.  The link to the 4chan post is no longer valid, so this is very second hand, with all the associated risks to reliability of that news.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: NovaHot1 on (01:23:03/08-19-15)
Nothing on CFD. Please, God, no more about CFD.  Enough already with CFD. Did I mention, please no CFD?

As others have said, I would be extremely pleased to see submersion cost fixed in print that isn't errata.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Whiskeyjack on (01:44:04/08-19-15)
Nothing on CFD. Please, God, no more about CFD.  Enough already with CFD. Did I mention, please no CFD?
Sweet merciful god, this.

Also widgets. I really cannot see how Streams, Paragons, and Widgets were not core material since they are the direct parallels to Awakened stuff. It really comes across as TMs not being considered anywhere near as important to support mechanically.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: All4BigGuns on (02:02:42/08-19-15)
Nothing on CFD. Please, God, no more about CFD.  Enough already with CFD. Did I mention, please no CFD?

Right there with you, but I'd prefer going one step further and the whole "anti nanotech" thing be removed entirely.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Mirikon on (09:37:24/08-19-15)
1) Bring back Streams and Paragons.

2) Ally Sprites. Or whatever you want to call them. If you're going to frag up TMs by making them 'Matrix Mages', then at least give them something like this.

3) More Complex Forms.

4) Techno-Riggers or Dronomancers need to make a comeback. Not as a "You have to Submerge before you can even begin following the stream" piece of drek like there is now. Perhaps an alternate setting on the Priority table, giving them different abilities focused on rigging?

5) MAKE THEM BE ABLE TO HAVE A GHOST-DAMN PAN!!!!!!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dinendae on (21:01:37/08-19-15)
1) Bring back Streams and Paragons.

2) Ally Sprites. Or whatever you want to call them. If you're going to frag up TMs by making them 'Matrix Mages', then at least give them something like this.

3) More Complex Forms.

4) Techno-Riggers or Dronomancers need to make a comeback. Not as a "You have to Submerge before you can even begin following the stream" piece of drek like there is now. Perhaps an alternate setting on the Priority table, giving them different abilities focused on rigging?

5) MAKE THEM BE ABLE TO HAVE A GHOST-DAMN PAN!!!!!!

Yes please, to all of those, but especially #4 and #5!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: CitizenJoe on (10:28:55/08-21-15)
I would be happy to see CFD get tied to technomancers and then defined in a mission or similar book.  Then we could get an ending that got rid of both CFD and Technomancers.   Or optionally, if players choose the "right color ending" both stick around. I.e. a straw poll to see what the general gaming population wants.

Personally, I liked the zeerust of the wired matrix.  So if the solution to CFD is killing the wireless matrix and thus technomancers I'm all for it.  I'm probably in the minority because the rest of us grognard are still playing 3rd ed.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (10:39:48/08-21-15)
I would be happy to see CFD get tied to technomancers and then defined in a mission or similar book.  Then we could get an ending that got rid of both CFD and Technomancers.   Or optionally, if players choose the "right color ending" both stick around. I.e. a straw poll to see what the general gaming population wants.

Personally, I liked the zeerust of the wired matrix.  So if the solution to CFD is killing the wireless matrix and thus technomancers I'm all for it.  I'm probably in the minority because the rest of us grognard are still playing 3rd ed.

Play with stuffs you want to see ignore some rules is easier than making new ones...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: CitizenJoe on (11:33:41/08-21-15)
It is less about rules and more about a storyline.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (11:41:55/08-21-15)
Make mancers a legend... Seemingly like Otakus
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Kincaid on (11:59:51/08-21-15)
The idea of putting out an ebook geared towards a certain archetype and then having that ebook be Gehenna for said archetype brought a smile to my face.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: CitizenJoe on (12:32:16/08-21-15)
The idea of putting out an ebook geared towards a certain archetype and then having that ebook be Gehenna for said archetype brought a smile to my face.

I like that term.  But seriously, it could play out as a regional decision.   Some places may ban wireless entirely due to CFD which would cripple TMs.  Other places may accept the potential problems of CFD and maintain an open wifi matrix.  Still other places may maintain a restricted wifi setup. 

Personally,  I like the varied approach.  While I would support specifying strategies in some core cities, the strategy choice for most would be set on a municipal level, i.e. the GM can set wifi as he needs for his story.

That would make for a great Prop 404 storyline.  The sourcebook could define how to handle wireless dead zones but also wireless restricted zones as well as their effects on technomancers.    Then introduce Prop 404 to eliminate wireless and have varying stories of success and failure.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Unahim on (22:47:26/08-22-15)
This technomancer update is doomed from the outset. The only thing that can save TMs by this point is errata that goes along the lines of:

"Replace the entire technomancer chapter in the corebook with the following chapter:"

Data Trails has only further poisoned the well by making necessary TM basic abilities (rigging! skinlink!) echoes, thus basically making it impossible to give them to TMs as a baseline ability. I honestly don't know what changes to suggest, as no house we now build can stand on the quicksand that is SR5 Technomancer core rules.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (19:31:07/08-23-15)
There is precedent via other game systems for what amounts to a whole rules rewrite for an archetype, especially one with special abilities. It wouldn't be a bad thing as it could bring them in line with the rest of the game, and they don't have a lot of material in the other books that would become obsolete.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (02:55:43/08-24-15)
This technomancer update is doomed from the outset. The only thing that can save TMs by this point is errata that goes along the lines of:

"Replace the entire technomancer chapter in the corebook with the following chapter:"

Data Trails has only further poisoned the well by making necessary TM basic abilities (rigging! skinlink!) echoes, thus basically making it impossible to give them to TMs as a baseline ability. I honestly don't know what changes to suggest, as no house we now build can stand on the quicksand that is SR5 Technomancer core rules.

They put stuff in books already that conflicts or seems to make other crap obsolete (hence the whole...  Two echoes that give a control rig) so I don't think they need any kind of "Oh we would have to rewrite this and that..."  No, just add them in and make the other choices that shouldn't be necessary in the first place now just bad/obsolete choices.  I'm bitter.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (08:53:05/08-24-15)
You have all the rights to be bitter. Technomancy has been neglected badly.

BUT: I don´t think the Concept is doomed by design. Quite the contrary: By making the Complex Forms more like the Matrix equivalents of Magic Spells they actually put everything in place to make a TM act and feel different than Hackers.

But THEN, they just didn´t deliver. There are barely two pages of Complex Forms, and they either offer nothing spectacular or have way too high Fading Values or both. And the Echoes didn´t help either.

Only the Sprites turned out pretty strong (if not even a little bit OP). But it´s a freaking headache for most GMs and PCs to have a Petnomancer at the Table. You have to micromanage your Sprites, their OS, Inititiave, Damage tracks, Marks and whatnot. You have to plan a lot in advance, making schedules for registering your sprites and planning your attack. And IMO, that sounds more like the Deckers way. But in 5th Ed, somehow the Deckers are the quick and flexible types, while the TMs have to stick to their limited options.

And if you don´t play a Petnomancer and spend all the legwork/party cuddle time with the fun and engaging act of registering Sprites, you can practically kick it. The current Echoes and Sprite are by no means impressive enough  to compensate the TMs weaknesses: the need for high mental Attributes, Skills, Resonance and Edge, the Dangers of having no Cold Sim and taking every box of Matrix damage straight in the face, the loss of Resonance through augmentations, being hunted and feared by many, not to mention the weird choice of net letting them have a PAN with their living Persona or have a direct connection without the Skinlink Echo.

Are they screwed? Yes, they are. But they are NOT beyond redemption.

What TMs need the most:
More Complex Forms (usefull ones with a reasonable Fading Value. Do not take the existing ones as a model! )
More Echoes (again: usefull ones that are worth the Karma. Not a basic functionality a Decker could buy for 250 bucks at Chargen!)

Do TMS also need Errata/Omission of the Stuff already implemented?
Yeah, they probably do. Then again, there isn´t much to change/ommit, isn´t it?

And regarding the TMs weaknesses mentioned above: Not all of them need to be repaired to make the TMs work. TMs are not Deckers. Instead, try to give them unique Skills that outweight these weaknesses.
Quick ways of messing with with your soroundings. Forcing nearby Devices in Wireless Mode. Misguided Weapon Systems. The "Laughing Man"-Hack. Spoofing a SIN.

And then, when these basics are fixed: Add the flavour. Streams, Paragons, additional Sprites, Dissonance, Fluff, Game Tipps, Sample Characters, the obligatory CFD chapter everyone craves *cough*...



Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sphinx on (17:30:54/08-25-15)
Another vote for reintroducing the missing content from SR4 Unwired ... streams, paragons, networks, widgets. More qualities, complex forms, and echoes. Bring back the missing sprites (code, paladin, sleuth, tank, tutor), and introduce Ally Sprites and Free Sprites. Compare and contrast a Free Sprite vs. an Artificial Intelligence.

Since technomancers are also hackers, some hacker-level content that could be equally useful to deckers would be appropriate and appreciated. Players who run hacker characters -- be they technomancers or deckers -- invariably want their characters to do things in the game that they see hackers doing on TV (e.g., tracking people via their cellphones, eavesdropping on conversations, making untraceable calls, creating false identities, emptying bank accounts). See Leverage, Person of Interest, NCIS. Some of these feats are quite possible in Shadowrun; others aren't and really shouldn't be. This could make good fodder for a couple of sidebars: divide the classic "trideo hacker" feats into things that can be done in the "real" Matrix (and explain how to do them), and things that just aren't possible (and explain why not).
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (07:51:18/08-26-15)
A quick idea on the Side:

Give the TM an equivalent of the Mages/Adepts Centering Technique. You use an additional free Action to Fokus yourself by performing a certain activity to focus yourself
and get a nice little Bonus (Bonus Dice for Resisting Fading would be consequential, but I could also think of other ones).

Whatever Technique you use, the Activities and Movmenets are mapped in meatspace and Matrix as well, no matter if you are in AR or VR.
Acceptable Activities should be something that may seem as normal or maybe just a little weird behaviour on a quick glance,
but look a little too weird when done for a prolonged time in most public places, especially whith eyes closed and a mind that is obviously occupied with something else.

Examples:

- Solving a Rubics Cube (Your avatar making the same turns with whatever its hands are)
- Whistling a set of characteristic melodies (That can also be heard in the Matrix)
- Saying the rosary, completely with beads and all (And in the Matrix, the beads are lines of code you parse through. Nice one for those Westfalia-Church-State-Techno-Inquisitors :P)
- Other religous or semi-religous rites
- Running a Playing Chip through your fingers
- Shuffling a deck of Cards
- Shadowboxing or other Martial Arts Performances
- Tai-Chi, Yoga Practises.
- Running, Threadmilling, Doing Pushups or other Workouts (Think about a TM hacking stuff from the local gym ;)) 

Fluffy, yet chrunchy. Just the way we like it  8)




Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Ionic on (14:47:09/08-27-15)
Please give some errata and answers regarding the well-discussed Diffusion of Firewall vs. Hosts question.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: ZeroIP on (22:23:30/08-28-15)
Also if you can please define the rules for Resonance Realms Searches. Right now the "Event Horizon" is great for fluff but is unable to be used and many GM's will not allow for Resonance Realms to be used because they need RAW rules as guidance. Without it one of the core aspects of technomancers that has been given is practically useless in game. We need definitive rules otherwise technomancers are going to slowly fade into being a fluff piece with no actual merit for their abilities or gameplay.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (12:31:32/08-30-15)
General Stuff:

Complex Forms:
Oh Boy! These are a mess. There´s need for improvement for so many of them, and the rest is still nothing that makes you shout "Wow, I want to play a Technomancer". So, lets line them up for an assortment of slaps suggestions:

Core Rulebook:
Data Trails:
Echoes:
Core Rulebook:

Data Trails:

Sprites:
Actually, these are mostly fine. Just one thing:
[/list]
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (12:49:58/08-31-15)
In my view the Technomancer echos are some kind of mix of adepts and magicians in a bad way and i not talking like mystic adepts.

Adepts: they get power points that they get to cut up to buy powers. this can be powers that give boost to dice rolls to new abilities they can do. As well some metamagics they can take.
+they get power points if they up their magic.

Magicians: the metamagic give them new abilities or helps with their spell casting in some way, take Centering as more dice to help cut down drain, with some metamagics powers base on your grade meaning they get more powerful the more you do Initiations.
(just going to say it now, i not played a magician and do not get how the arts work from street grimoire, i love for someone to help me get them sometime, i do get how the metamagic works from the core rule book any way.)

Deckers: They use money to pay for new decks, Augmentations and programs, Augmentations can cost a lot for the good ones(more so for better grade ones) and programs mostly cost 80-250 per program.

This is not a problem i think but it does highlight the echos for Technomancer in just odd.

Technomancer: echos are over the place.
programs echos: it takes one echo to copy the use of one program that you can not change out
i have no idea if they can be crashed or seen by other people as well like a program would for a decker. To top it off this puts the echo cost at 80-250 when you look at the decker and for them to have them.(true they can be crashed, seen and maybe lost in cases but they are cheap and change out when needed for the decker)

Augmentation echos: they are echos that copy a Augmentation that would cost essence and money for others, so far there 2 or 3 echos in my view here(4 but one copy of the other one)

Mind over Machine:like the control rig,you jump in to anything that got a rigger interface on top of uping the Handling and Speed of Vehicles lowing the thresholds base on your rateing, it not base on your grade but the number of times you take the echo so you get a less back here if you take it more then one time.

skinlink:some of you may say but that not a Augmentation but is copying a datajack and then some so it going here.
it "acts" like a datajack letting them touch something to directly interface with it. i say and then some as it acts better then a datajack as they got to find a port to link in to (and i recall corps keep them hidden in hard to get places or places you can not get to at all without moving things from what i recall from the core rule book) skinlink only need you to touch it and it kind of hard for corps in most cases to make sure no one can touch it at all. meaning it can be a easy way in hacking a host as the host can not def what your hacking directly.

FFF:
it gives you the use of pain editor with all the ups and downs, deadly if one does not use it right but can be a life saver.
i not going in to all of it but the power to stay conscious when your Stun Condition Monitor is completely full as Technomancer taking hits when hacking as stun meaning it can be a life saver if someone going to put your lights out when your hacking.
pointing out that the augmentation base is has, avail(18F) mean your going to jail if they find one on you, Technomancer only pay a echo and there no sign of a pain editer, the only 2 down sides is that you can only take it as your 2nd echo on but that not too bad the other is that you do not not know close to being killed you are and it hard to tell when in VR, you need a Biomonitor sending to your persona or maybe you can use the echo Sleepwaker to see if you bleeding at the nose.

Not taking in skinlink , Control Rig R1 and pain editor cost about 43-48k in cash without taking in grades here but you are using one echo but no essence, avail or cash for the TM.

Echos base off your Resonance attribute
just Quiet and Resonance Scream that ups or down noise in an area about the TM.

Echos base off grade
(this space for rent, AKA zero)
so no echos so far that power up you get higher grades

The Echos that up your ASDF
They only add +1 to that stat and can be taken 2 times(or 3 as you can take a program echo to up it by one)
no idea how this work to money but i think there are echos that got more use then just a +1 to stat and limit for one full echo.
but they maybe needed in later play as a human caps out at 6/6/6/6 meaning most Technomancer unless a race that not human will not have stats close to a high end deck unless they drop a lot of echos on the uping their ASDF but then what point of having echos.
(just my view here and maybe wrong on this part)

so my echo can buy me the same as 80Y-250Y program or a 40k+ augmentation that not show up at all unless someone can tell your using it....
and it case by case to see if the other abilities are useful to get and if there work about or tech that can buy to do about the same thing.

i talk about complex forms some other time.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Rule of Three on (16:52:11/09-02-15)
It sounds like people are FINDING uses for them, but not, perhaps, using them as expected in design.

I would be thrilled with live examples of a technomancer in play; show us, from a design perspective, what you want them doing in their environment! Show us the actual archetype in the world. Show us why its better to be a technomancer in various examples and how they should play.

None of that should be fluff alone.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Smogg on (04:24:52/09-05-15)
Just a few suggestions for a the Technomancer book.

1. Access Sprites. Would be cool with a new type of sprite that specialize in manipulating marks. Maybe if they have a mark on a device, they could hand off their mark to the technomancer or another sprite.

2. Link Sprites: A sprite with a link power that could be activated. This power would allow the link sprite to forge a direct connection between another sprite and a device to which the technomancer already has a direct connection.

3. Link Form: An alternative idea could be a complex form allowing the technomancer to form direct connections between sprites and devices. Likely provided he already has direct connection to the device.   

2 or 3 would be cool because it would give technomancers more encouragement to be physically on the site if they wish to use sprites for hacking. Skinlink and Resonance Riding would be great for sprite-focused technomancers. Either way defenetly think through how Technomancers and Sprites can work better together in a smooth way when hacking their way into a host.

4. Complex form to generate a temporary fake SIN that would have to be sustained. This could be a really useful and unique power

5. An echo or complex form that would let the technomancer emulate a skilljack to some degree.

6. If looking for technomancer stuff that would allow him to spend money, a good option might be to let the technomancers buy/rent small hosts that could be used for all kind of different tricks. Kind of a home in the matrix. Maybe it could have things like secure data storage, skill storage, hosting capabilities for fake company front-ends to be used in con games. Maybe sprites would be able to take advantage of a host as a dwelling.

7. Also consider that without the +2 bonus for being in VR, the technomancer often does not have any carrot to enter VR. Of course if he is in combat and he want to win, the high initiative is nice. But if looking to avoid combat anyway VR will not give an edge. Maybe some carrot is needed.

Hope my ideas helps a bit. Good luck with technomancer book.


Oh yeah and table of contents and index.. INDEX PLS!!!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Triskavanski on (12:33:49/09-05-15)
Fist, you've missed the Complex form from Chromed Flesh.
Coriolis Fade value L+3
Duration E (Whatever E means, possibly extended)

And basically is a 24 hour extended test. Which at anytime this is stopped.. You take all the fade damage, unresistant. And so does the host! Oddly, this happens if the fragment gives up control to the host as well. If you wanna talk about a suicide button, well this CF is it! Since in those 24 hours you'll experience hunger, going to the bathroom all over yourself, thirst, and a severe lack of sleep. Better hope you don't critically glitch, because that makes the interval 48 hours instead, and the hits achieved go down to 0.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (22:40:19/09-05-15)
A complex form that changes the ownership of a device for a time could be pretty cool.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (16:36:32/09-06-15)

4. Complex form to generate a temporary fake SIN that would have to be sustained. This could be a really useful and unique power


Great idea! And it would be quite reasonable, too: The SIN verification system was implemented when people had no clue that someday the emergence of Technomancy would happen. And while the hosts and databases are regulary patched for state-of-the-art protection, the core system itself might offer some esoteric cracks the for Technomancers to exploit - cracks that are either unknown or just too hard to fix without shutting down the whole system, so they persist.

I actually houseruled some CF that use these cracks a few weeks ago:

Threaded Identity works exactly like Smogg suggested, with some added detail: The SIN and the attached Biometric and Personal Data formed by the CF are somewhat "proceduraly generated" and optimised to fool electronic verification systems. Against these systems, the "Resonance SIN" uses the full amount of Net Hits as the SIN Rating (which can probably be even more than 6). BUT: For Metahuman / sapient exeminators, the threaded SIN looks strangely suspicous: Strange Patterns of numbers, strange names, strangely artificial Fingerprints and Photographs. Thus, against sapient examination, the SIN works only at half the Rating. Also, once the CF is dropped, the artificial Identity formed by it cannot be restored again, so the TM will still need some kind of permanent SIN. But he can use the CF to make one up on the fly for himself, his team members or NPCs - and that would be hella´usefull :)

Cast out SIN can be used on any kind of SIN (faked, legal, threaded) to temporarily scramble efforts to verify the SIN via the SIN verification System. The target SIN defends itself with its Rating (or 7, if it´s a legal SIN) + the owners Edge (it´s kind of a luck thing if your SIN is more or less vulnerable to manipulation). This can be used to stop or delay a target person, for example at an airport or during in a police control.
 
Recognize SIN can be used to access personal data linked to a certain SIN without accessing the SIN network. Resistance works same as with Cast out SIN .The number of net hits determines the depth of information: 1 for the bare essentials (sex, name, country), 2 for stuff like photographs, convictions, licences, 3+ for the "yummy" stuff like biometric data (including fingerprints, retina scans or even gene sequences!), health history, movement patterns, augmentations...


5. An echo or complex form that would let the technomancer emulate a skilljack to some degree.

There was the "Biowire" Echo in 4th Ed. which even offered the benefits of Skillwires with a Rating of [Submersion Grade].The Biowires were also a prerequisite for the "Acceleration" Echo, the TMs own version of Wired Reflexes/Synaptic Boosters/Increase Reflexes/etc.

IMO, a skillJACK with [Resonance] Rating should be something all TMs get for free (I use the German Core Rulebook where Skilljacks cost only 10% of the price in the english version, which I find much more reasonable), and the Biowires (and the Acceleration Echo) should definitely come back.
 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: living on (17:41:17/09-06-15)
i would secon the points mentioned by HiddenBoss. the only thing i disagree is the rework of the machine sprit. that bonus on smartlinks is the only reason my sams accept me as a member...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: FST_Gemstar on (14:32:54/09-08-15)
The more I think about it, the less I think technomancers need major crunch fixes. Sure, the fade values of CFs are too high, what the scope of machine spite diagnostic power needs clarity, the cost/benefit analysis of lots of echoes are pretty poor, and the method of trying to direct connect through a wirelessly enabled datatap is suspect. In all though, these aren't difficult to address in a PDF (though it would have been nice if they were errata'd). Additionally, adding the analogous technomancer versions of magical traditions, diverse metamagics, mentor spirits, and foci (I never played 4th but paragons, streams, etc. fit the bill) would be a nice addition to technomancer customization and viability (though I would argue this would have been a nicer addition to data trails than AI PCs, really, how many AIs are shadowrunners?)

I think the biggest issue with technomancers is the fluff. The fluff does not match the crunch, making playing and generating characters confusing and frustrating. I guess a lot of the fluff is written from an outside view, what society thinks of technomancers, and hopefully the PDF could include more fluff from diverse technomancer perspectives to help address this. Some examples that have irked me:

"Very few [technomancers] are actually hackers, and only a few of those are talented enough to be shadowrunners." This has bugged and confused me. If very few technomancers are hackers, why are all examples of technomancers hackers? Or does this mean that the only way a technomancer can be a shadowrunner is if they are the few very skilled technohackers out there?

All of the verbage about Technomancers feeling more at home in matrix, comparing them to squids in the sea vs scuba divers (Deckers), that the matrix is more real to them than the meat. The only crunch connection to these statements are the +2 to matrix perception that technomancers get in VR and their built in DNI. I'm not doubting the benefit of these things, but I expect a squid to be a better swimmer, hunter, hider, when in water than most scuba divers, but deckers are consistently better and more adaptable at hacking functions than technomancers and seem more equipped to deal with more diverse Matrix issues than technomancers.  Sure deckers have to invest in decks, but in terms of crunch, deckers with Resources A or B are likely to have bigger dice pools for more matrix actions than Resonance A or B technomancers.  Additionally, this idea that technomancers are wiz programmers doesn't seem to pan out to me, as again, deckers sling code just fine and to more consistent effect than technomancers. Maybe because they need software skills for Complex Forms? Complex Forms aren't really matrix coding though... it's more akin to magic. The base code of CFs aren't even recognizable in the Matrix. So why should technomancers be so good at coding, and why are deckers consistently better than them at coding?

I would also like to get more information about the legal status of technomancers. Many players complain that technomancers are a "hard mode" character type due to their limitations, but I would argue that I am ok with them being hard mode but not due to their limits but to their status in the 6th World. Where do they need to be registered? What about bounties? Who is likely to try to sell them out? Should they really buy dummy decks to hide their abilities? What about Johnsons? Who will hire open technomancers? Who will try to snag them for their corps? I'm not sure this is fleshed out enough for players and GMs alike to really get a good grasp on playstyles.

Finally, so much matrix utility is for meat world application. Crunchwise: wireless benefits. Really what I want to see diverse ways technomancers get an edge in the meatworld precisely because of their matrix familiarity, not dump everything physical and want to stay in VR all the time and still not be good at VR actions as deckers. Again, I think this is more akin to magic. Magicians utilize mana and can explore the astral world, but they do most of their work affecting the physical world with all sorts of spells and spirits. The wireless Matrix allows data to be all around technomancers which they supposedly can swim through and manipulate like squids, but the fluff for technomancers as it stands shies so much from physical feats. Show us combat technomancers, stealth technomancers, facemancers, etc. I know i have tried to build characters like these and I think in terms of game design technomancers are better suited to be non-hackers, but really, I have no idea how they fit into the shadowrun universe because everything is so hacker focused.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (05:38:41/09-09-15)
[...]because everything is so hacker focused.
And not good at hacking...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (12:02:31/09-09-15)
ok i had a look at complex forms and like people been saying, the Fading is too high and some of them as just a copy or lesser copy of magic spells.
it will just fall under errata at this point so i only like to say that stitches needs the same power as heal to use a hit dice to lower the time to make it permanent.

And is there any point for players to hunt down a Resonance well? Most of the powers a TM has to be used in the place they need to use it like in a host or not in the host with the well.....(the matrix is "your in this host or your not in this host" at this point, and you can not doing anything that not in the same place as you)
so unless i want to do a lot of registering tests there no point to me finding one of them. Maybe they can get a drink of power that boost them for a bit(over do it and they get a addiction test to become addiction to resonance well)

What about rituals or something a like to them for TM so they can better make use of the wells? call it posting or maybe a great weaving?
If there rules for evil magic then maybe some for playing a dissonant user, for the gm use at any rate, as well some echos, complex forms and maybe a sprite or two for fighting dissonant(dissonant users can not get anti dissonant powers), and some more dissonant only things.

As well i like to see is complex forms and echos that make use of the new matrix(it is new world out there), some complex forms or echod that give use actions that a decker can not do at all would be a good start i think.(RESONANCE VEIL is a good idea of this but it need a lot of ruling, i got no idea how people can react to the damm thing)

i like the idea of complex forms that play about with sin's, i never took in the use of playing with sin's so good idea there.


 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (08:40:45/09-10-15)
ok i had a look at complex forms and like people been saying, the Fading is too high and some of them as just a copy or lesser copy of magic spells.
it will just fall under errata at this point so i only like to say that stitches needs the same power as heal to use a hit dice to lower the time to make it permanent.

PLUS: Why not a a Komplex Form that Works like the actual Heal Spell, but for Matrix Damage Monitor of devices (unless bricked)? With the same rules like the Heal spell, e.g. sustaining it before it becomes permanent and only working on one Set of Matrix Damage a time? The TM won´t be able to heal himself (since he´s got no Matrix Damage Monitor), but he can quickly patch up Drones, Kommlinks, etc. Of course, the leftover Damage still has to be "healed" by being repaired.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (09:38:28/09-10-15)

PLUS: Why not a a Komplex Form that Works like the actual Heal Spell, but for Matrix Damage Monitor of devices (unless bricked)? With the same rules like the Heal spell, e.g. sustaining it before it becomes permanent and only working on one Set of Matrix Damage a time? The TM won´t be able to heal himself (since he´s got no Matrix Damage Monitor), but he can quickly patch up Drones, Kommlinks, etc. Of course, the leftover Damage still has to be "healed" by being repaired.

Why it is true that tm's do not have a Matrix Damage bar, they can use redundancy to get one but i got no idea if it be better to heal that or just set up a new  redundancy,
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (11:19:38/09-10-15)
And while we´re at it: How about something like this?

Device Resurrection (Complex Form): The Technomancer channels his Resonance Powers into a bricked device (Note: Not a thrashed one, just one with filled matrix condition monitor) to make it miraculously work again at his command. To accomplish this, he has to touch the device and reach a Threshold of Device Rating / Pilot Rating. The resurrected device will come online at the end of of the Combat Round and will obey the Technomancer as if (s)he is the the rightfull owner. Any point of Matrix damage dealt to the device reduces the number of the CF´s hits instead. When either the device or the Technomancer lose their Matrix connection or the Complex Form is dropped, killed or reduced to Zero, the effect ends and the device is bricked again.

Yay! Zombie Drones! :D
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: CitizenJoe on (15:42:48/09-10-15)
I think jury rigger quality let's you use bricked devices for a little bit.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (03:20:24/09-11-15)
So, it's been four months...  I hope this book is still in the works.

I'm sure some people as well have mentioned that this book shouldn't concern itself with "Well this already works this way, we can't just change it!" when the existing books already have redundant material or stuff that just makes other things obsolete.  I say, "That's BS, just do what needs to be done".  Like making echoes that just overwrite some of the crap ones in Data Trails...  Data Trails started overwriting stuff first!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (05:50:59/09-11-15)
yeap some news for that?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (10:41:05/09-16-15)
*Crickets chirping*
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sendaz on (10:47:31/09-16-15)
*sprays for Bugs*
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: korusef on (13:31:41/09-16-15)
*summons Bug spirit*
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (13:59:11/09-16-15)
*screams like a girl and kills it with fireballs*
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (04:56:45/09-17-15)
*compiles a bug swarm sprite*
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (12:27:45/09-17-15)
Wow, really? 8 days? And this is not the first time someone asked if the project ist still active. Is there some kind of "devs don´t deal with peasants"-policy we still have to figure out?

It would be nice to know if this book is still happening or if this is all just turning into a big houserules discussion  >:(

*Slightly annoyed toxic cricket spirits chirping*   
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Kincaid on (13:09:24/09-17-15)
I suspect it's because people not directly working on it fall into either the "NDA prohibits me" camp or, like me, the, "I have no idea so I can't contribute anything meaningful" camp.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (20:11:56/09-17-15)
they really need to to work on their Public relations....
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (20:46:14/09-17-15)
I don't mind as long as the end result is an honest attempt to make up for disappointing the fans/customers when it came to technomancers in the core book and Data Trails.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (01:52:41/09-18-15)
Wow, really? 8 days? And this is not the first time someone asked if the project ist still active. Is there some kind of "devs don´t deal with peasants"-policy we still have to figure out?

It would be nice to know if this book is still happening or if this is all just turning into a big houserules discussion  >:(
they really need to to work on their Public relations....
Some peoples' projects get worked on for years, guys.  And at a certain point, yeah, you can't talk about it.  And sometimes - like, for me, it would've been after page 3, because pretty much after that point it was just a cyclic debate - you just stop reading the thread, because people are responding to the first post, and all the suggestions are either a) identical, or b) contradictory.  So you wind up shrugging and going on with what you think needs to be done, and ignoring the angry masses, because if you spend your time here, you wouldn't be spending it writing the proposal.

So really?  Eight days?  Question it after eight months.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (09:28:03/09-18-15)
Yeah, you´re kinda right...

Still, it´s not that people are wondering what exactly will be implemented in the book.

It´s the fact that some actually have the strong suspicion that the project is silently abandoned. Which should be kind of a red flag for the people working on it, because it means that many are beyond frustration and straight in the "screw that, TMs will always be a mess"-zone. It´s been just 8 days since someone asked this question the last time, but we´re talking about 4 month, the entire time this thread exists, without any lifesigns. I´m just wondering if we´re all beating a dead horse here.

Then again, I guess nothing stops us from doing so and post more suggestions and ideas. If they really abandon the book (or half-ass it just as badly as the TM "chapter" in Data Trails or try to force-feed us CFD Fluff instead of usable Crunch), we´d still have a nice repository for houserules.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sendaz on (13:38:29/09-18-15)
I´m just wondering if we´re all beating a dead horse here.
At least with wireless ON, beating said dead horse is a free action. :D
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (01:58:01/09-19-15)
No offense, Finstersang, but do you understand what an NDA means?  Sometimes it means 'I can't talk about this in any way, shape, or form, including saying whether or not it's being worked on.'  People will believe anything and everything; this is the internet.  Whether that means they believe that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, or that the Moon landings were faked, or that the project has been completely abandoned and there won't ever be something that expands on Technomancers, that's up to them.  Their belief, or bitching about their belief, or someone who is or is not involved with the project saying something, honestly isn't going to make a whit's worth of difference.

So really, bitch if you want. Believe what you want.  One way or another, though, a technomancer book will come out.  And the author or authors of it might or might not listen to what's been posted about TMs here.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (07:17:48/09-19-15)
First: No offense, The Wyrm Ouroboros, but saying "no offense" and then accuse someone of "bitching" doesnt´t go well together in my book. I´m not bitching. Well, at least I´m not trying to. But I can understand where you got the notion from. I have yet to come back to the more productive part of making positive suggestions ;)

Second: So there is an NDA on this? I could understand it, it´s common practice, but still, it would be nice to know. (Although, would admitting that there is an NDA break said NDA? Oh, what a dilemma :P)

Third: I like your optimism. Let´s stick to that: The book will come and it will be awesome. :D

Last: As said before, whether we believe this book is still happening or not, using this thread as way of gathering ideas for improvement is still a good choice. So, my honest apologies on that one: I should have foreseen that those chirping crickets and "bitching" about the general information policy (if there is one) would kinda derail the thread. Let´s get it back on track again.

Suggestions?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (07:50:47/09-19-15)
Look, when you start saying, "It's been eight whole days!!" on a project that is going to take four, six, twelve months to put together, then yeah, it's bitching.  And if there's a project in the works, then it's being worked on in-house, and of course there's an NDA on it.  And there are levels of information distribution with Catalyst, as with any corporation; the left hand doesn't always know what the right hand is doing, and while that can be a problem, well, it's the editor's problem.  :P

But I never said it would automatically be awesome.  It'll happen, though; sort of inevitable.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (08:18:04/09-19-15)
You´re right, that sounds kinda bitchy if you put it that way...

In my defense, I was referring to this 8 days moment of awkward silence with people staring at the Amy and the gang like: "Aaaand? There still will be book? Right?" But I guess we would at least hear a word if the book is cancelled, so this notion is quite irrational. Let´s assume it´s just NDA. Maybe a bit of lazyness. Maybe both.

Again: Let´s put out more suggestions and/or (constructive) criticism.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (19:19:04/09-19-15)
So: Sprites.

New Resonance Streams (the TM equivalent of Magic Paradigms) will probably allow TM to compile a different set of sprites. At least, that´s how it was in the good old 4th Edition Matrix Rulebook "Unwired". The questions is: what kind of additional Sprites could a TM need?

One Sprite from Unwired that definitely deserves a comeback is the Paladin Sprite: Strong Firewall and the Ability to redirect attacks/matrix Damage to itself, maybe also some offensive capability, but not as strong as the Fault Sprite. This ability could be implemented very nicely through the 5th Ed. interrupt Actions.

The Sleuth Sprite was good at tracking down targets in the Matrix and hunting for incriminating data. Another good one.

Then there was the Code Sprite (kind of a general support Sprite), the Tank/Boss Sprite (a more "brutish" alternative to the Fault Sprite) and the Tutor Sprite (that provided you with skillsofts or knowledge skills). So far, so good. Since the Matrix rules changed drastically from 4th to 5th, a simple copy-paste-job would probably not be enough, but the general ideas for these Sprites seem to be pretty nice.

What other kind of Sprites would be neat?

- Psycho/Bio/Black/Grey Sprite: Another Attack-heavy Sprite, but unlike the Fault Sprite, these Sprite(s) are specialized for dealing Biofeedback damage (Physical or Stun) or even inflicting certain psychotropic effects. While the Fault Sprite is to be used against Devices and Personas, these aim directly at the Wetware.

- Translator Sprite: Helps by, well, translating. Mostly to be used as an aid in social encounters. Since it can probably also help by translating between encodings and programming languages, there could be also a secondary bonus for some Matrix Actions.

- Meta/Weaver Sprite: A bit like the Sprite version of a Spirit of Man: Depending on the Level, the Sprite can "inherit" a number of Complex Forms known to the TM and thread them with the Software ability. It can also use Software to kill Komplex Forms and could  even be able to decompile other Sprites. 

- Pilot Sprite: This one brings back the part of the Machine Sprite that was cut from 4th to 5th Ed.: It can actually pilot a Drone by "jumping" into it. The Dronomancer´s new favourite.

Oh, and of course: Dissonant Sprites. These should be devastating to man and machine alike. Let the GMs have some fun  :P

Edit:
Also, why not something like a Sprite Version of Great Form Spirits, unlockable through Submersion?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Fariq on (06:33:32/09-22-15)
I would be thrilled with live examples of a technomancer in play; show us, from a design perspective, what you want them doing in their environment! Show us the actual archetype in the world. Show us why its better to be a technomancer in various examples and how they should play.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Zweiblumen on (11:57:36/09-22-15)
I would be thrilled with live examples of a technomancer in play; show us, from a design perspective, what you want them doing in their environment! Show us the actual archetype in the world. Show us why its better to be a technomancer in various examples and how they should play.

This!  Many of us have worked out a few methods of making a playable version of this archetype and many of us love the concept.  Show us how the developers imagined the Technomancer to interact with the world the same way you've shown us how the decker and street sam interact.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: korusef on (17:48:12/09-22-15)
This!  Many of us have worked out a few methods of making a playable version of this archetype and many of us love the concept.  Show us how the developers imagined the Technomancer to interact with the world the same way you've shown us how the decker and street sam interact.

Something like Technomancer Tactics: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21487.0 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21487.0) ?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Zweiblumen on (18:12:53/09-22-15)
This!  Many of us have worked out a few methods of making a playable version of this archetype and many of us love the concept.  Show us how the developers imagined the Technomancer to interact with the world the same way you've shown us how the decker and street sam interact.

Something like Technomancer Tactics: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21487.0 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21487.0) ?

No, something from the developers who designed it in the first place to give examples of how they see it working.  Not how we the players have had to guess at the best way to make them work.

I would love to see how the designers intended Technomancers to interact with the Matrix and the Meat worlds.  How they would balance that and still be useful in one or the other.  Deckers are expected to do certain things, are Technomancers expected to do the same (because if that's the case, it's *really* hard to get them on even footing) or are they expected to do different things?  The community has managed to find great ways to use Technomancers, but if we have missed the mark on how the designers thought they would be used that would be insightful to us.  Help deal with the "one true build" situation.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Kincaid on (10:58:01/09-23-15)
I wasn't on the design team for the core book (and I'm not working on the pdf), but I started that thread because I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about TMs (and all things Matrix-y), so to that extent, it represents the thoughts of one freelancer.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Zweiblumen on (13:43:04/09-23-15)
Thanks Kincaid, I was under the impression you'd done that as a player. :)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Kincaid on (14:44:05/09-23-15)
In many ways, it is.  It's not like that represents anyone else's take on things, it's just something I threw together for the community since I see a lot of questions about what TMs are good for and wanted to start a dialogue beyond the typical "nothing!" response.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Zweiblumen on (16:37:51/09-23-15)
I've played a TM in very much the same vein (though slightly less sprite heavy, though still very sprite dependent).  More use of Resonance Veil and I lean heavily on Assist Threading for most of my threading.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Rule of Three on (16:26:01/09-25-15)
Thanks Zweiblumen!

Happy someone agrees with the idea. I feel like the game would benefit significantly from us understanding more what the "paradigm" of the developers was intended. It is incredibly hard to do in a rulebook and even more so with an IP containing such a complicated and rich history like SR.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (20:19:43/09-30-15)
well as far as i can tell, Yue stop login in on about the time it got to page 7 so who knows if it all got seen.

I think we all said are bit about now so all we can do is just hope and wait..

And I not feeling hopeful about all this right now.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (16:17:36/10-02-15)
You don´t have to login to see the thread, so new suggestions might still be heard. Also, if the TM book turns out to be another crapshot or is secretly abandoned, we´d still have a lot of ideas for houserules. So please, don´t hold back if you have any ideas left.

But yeah, because of impressions like this, it would be incredibly helpfull if someone official steps out of the ivory tower once every other month to tell the peasants what´s up -.-
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (09:12:39/10-20-15)
Well we know the book being made

http://shadowrun.tumblr.com/upcoming

it being call "Untitled Technomancer E-book"

Slow clap for the name btw.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sendaz on (13:06:13/10-20-15)
Well we know the book being made

http://shadowrun.tumblr.com/upcoming

it being call "Untitled Technomancer E-book"

Slow clap for the name btw.
the critter book is the same, the name will come out closer to the time

Would have been better if the had used [REDACTED] or [CENSORED] instead of untitled so people would all be trying to guess what the title was. :P
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (16:42:43/10-20-15)
Echoes and Mirages was the title I saw flying around in the german community a few months ago. Sounds pretty cool IMO, but who knows what name will be the final pick.

On another note: What is a Sourcebook Expansion in comparison to a Core Expansion like Rigger 5?
Is it one of these 75% Fluff - 25% Crunch Expansions like Hard Targets? I wouldn´t mind, since I think TM´s are neglected fluff-wise just as well. But at least 30+ Pages of serious, usable Crunch (+ maybe some bold fixes for the existing concepts) should be the bare minimum if they really want to make this Archetype work again.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (21:24:40/10-20-15)
Well we know the book being made

http://shadowrun.tumblr.com/upcoming

it being call "Untitled Technomancer E-book"

Slow clap for the name btw.

I have a smile like a little orphan boy with a broken leg being told he's been adopted by a billionaire.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: ShadowMaster on (22:59:56/10-20-15)
Echoes and Mirages was the title I saw flying around in the german community a few months ago. Sounds pretty cool IMO, but who knows what name will be the final pick.

On another note: What is a Sourcebook Expansion in comparison to a Core Expansion like Rigger 5?
Is it one of these 75% Fluff - 25% Crunch Expansions like Hard Targets? I wouldn´t mind, since I think TM´s are neglected fluff-wise just as well. But at least 30+ Pages of serious, usable Crunch (+ maybe some bold fixes for the existing concepts) should be the bare minimum if they really want to make this Archetype work again.

I think the major difference is that the core expansions have all been in pdf and paper and the source book expansions have been in pdf only.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Crimsondude on (02:02:51/10-21-15)
Well we know the book being made

http://shadowrun.tumblr.com/upcoming (http://shadowrun.tumblr.com/upcoming)

it being call "Untitled Technomancer E-book"

Slow clap for the name btw.
the critter book is the same, the name will come out closer to the time

Would have been better if the had used [REDACTED] or [CENSORED] instead of untitled so people would all be trying to guess what the title was. :P

I have no particular use for games when it comes to running the tumblr.

There will be descriptions, but I ran out of time last night and I code the HTML by hand. I get very particular.


Echoes and Mirages was the title I saw flying around in the german community a few months ago. Sounds pretty cool IMO, but who knows what name will be the final pick.
I think I've only seen this name mentioned here.

On another note: What is a Sourcebook Expansion in comparison to a Core Expansion like Rigger 5?
Is it one of these 75% Fluff - 25% Crunch Expansions like Hard Targets? I wouldn´t mind, since I think TM´s are neglected fluff-wise just as well. But at least 30+ Pages of serious, usable Crunch (+ maybe some bold fixes for the existing concepts) should be the bare minimum if they really want to make this Archetype work again.
These would be books like Digital Grimoire, Shadow Spells, the whole Para- line (including Aetherology) and splatbooks (Gun Heaven 1–3, the vehicle books). Basically, it's a nice euphemism for "miscellaneous."

There's no formal name for certain types of books, but the closest I could come to what they are is sourcebook expansions—e-books that expand on sourcebook material from both core rulebook expansions and other sourcebooks (deep shadows, plot and setting books, etc.). But I'm not putting the word "splatbook" on something that has Catalyst's imprimatur on it. I may just call them Sourcebooks.

The TM handbook was listed as a core expansion on http://shadowrun.tumblr.com/tags (http://shadowrun.tumblr.com/tags), but I'm not sure whether it is or isn't since Data Trails is the Matrix core expansion. In the end, it will be whatever Jason says it will be.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Intro on (22:33:08/10-23-15)
One way I think that TMs could be differentiated from deckers would be to leverage resources in different ways. One option is Overwatch Score. Deckers build OS up gradually based on opponents' hits. Perhaps, since Complex Forms are sort of alien to the normal functioning of the Matrix, they build it up more rapidly in return for more powerful effects? What if something like Puppeteer caused much less Drain, but boosted your OS score by a lot? So a decker would gradually build up marks, etc., and could stay in the system for a while, but a TM would just tie the system in knots rapidly, then have to reboot their living persona and spend a Combat Turn in the meat?

To avoid having to recost everything that exists, it could be an option that's kind of the reverse of Reckless Spellcasting: take -3 Drain (or whatever) in exchange for boosting OS by [some number].
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (20:15:49/10-26-15)
Just let us know when we got some more info on the book
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Crimsondude on (05:03:39/10-27-15)
Just let us know when we got some more info on the book
That's the plan.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (07:54:23/10-27-15)
Turns out that Amy left the position back in August, just got to hope that they did look at our ideas.


link (https://www.facebook.com/amyveeres/timeline/story?ut=32&wstart=-2051193600&wend=2147483647&hash=10155336414050107&pagefilter=3)

edit 22/05/16 may not been the same amy, think amy move to reddit now.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (10:53:27/10-28-15)
Ok i think forum is good too speak but not to list all ideas every one have.

Does any one have somthing like a wiki or a google doc to make the list by type of ideas?

We have main line (chapters of work) :
- Full rewrite (but how?)
- Balancing to have a mage sized power in the matrix (lesser rewrite of existing)
- Make them really different from decker
- Streams
- Paragon
- Matrix foci chips
- Guilds
- Dronomancing
- Life modules.
- More
- Specifics Quality
- Lesser Echoes (emulate tools with a low cost with something that doesn't require submersion)

Are you ok to start with it on a Google doc file?
Here one beginning if you are ok, comment it
If you want to modify it send me your email
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DZQoG7wae3TYBCr9vIhMAJFDQi9UcslaZWRecPU6R6g/edit?usp=sharing


Does officials are ok with this kind of tool?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dinendae on (11:55:29/10-28-15)
Life modules. Technomancers seriously need some more life module choices.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (20:59:07/10-28-15)
Some thoughts on Echoes:

First: The idea of making some Echoes mimick/emulate the effects of certain augmentations seems pretty solid, but unless it´s something as powerfull and expensive as a Trauma Damper, there should some bonus to it the augmentation wouldn´t normally offer, maybe counterbalanced with some drawbacks when using that additional Bonus. You could also combine Effects the Effects of "lesser", more gimmicky augmentations. When it comes to the wireless capabilities of Augmentations, you could instead force the TM to have his/her Living Persona connected to the Matrix and prone to attacks. Also, you could add some rewarding synergy effects when certain Echoes are combined.

Examples:

Second: Since many basic functions for TMs are hidden in Echoes, offer some ways to get the effects of at least 1 or 2 of them (like Skinlink, MMI...) at Chargen.

Some possibilites:

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: belaran on (12:30:09/10-31-15)
I confess I did not read all the previous post, just wanted to add my 2 cents: +1 on Dissonant and Resonance. Seems to be a very cool hook for scenario and campaign, and the data I've gathered on it reading most of the 5th edition source book is not enough to make it useable.

Also, technomancer clearly look like mage/shaman in the matrix, so I'm pretty sure there is people (or at least) corp trying to break this barrier (having mage/shaman trying to invoke sprites or tm trying to use resonance to do counter spell). A couple of paranoid Plan 9 conspiracy's theories about that could be nice to see...

Oh, last item. When I picked up Shadowrun 5th, I really found the hacker rules difficult to grasp. So I end up writing a small solo adventure (you know with paragraph numbers, like in the steve jackson series), for me but also help people understanding them. If you introduced a lot of new mechanisms for TM, I would recommand adding a small adventure like that. So that GM and PCs can just run the adventure and get a better, concrete grasp of the new rules.

(sorry if I just echo previous ideas)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Rooks on (10:56:40/12-31-15)
Create Rules for a Droneomancer basically a Technomancer that uses the matrix to control drones much like how a Rigger uses his RCC to control drones but instead the Droneomancer uses his living personal to control them and complex forms could be something like Autosofts or cyber programs
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: falar on (12:09:18/12-31-15)
Create Rules for a Droneomancer basically a Technomancer that uses the matrix to control drones much like how a Rigger uses his RCC to control drones but instead the Droneomancer uses his living personal to control them and complex forms could be something like Autosofts or cyber programs
This already exists. See MMRI echo.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (22:56:53/12-31-15)

This already exists. See MMRI echo.

That only the echo that copys the control rig, we got no way of being like a rigger without owning a RCC for Autosofts or cyber programs and if we use a rcc to jump in, we not using our living persona so that kills the point.
do not think complex forms would be the best way to do it as you take -2 per complex forms and we can not be part of a pan right now, maybe it can uses your skils as auto softs if you could be "rcc"
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Rooks on (10:52:34/01-01-16)
Would solved the whole Riggers are the lawls issue with 5e for sure
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Moonshine Fox on (09:37:47/01-02-16)

This already exists. See MMRI echo.

That only the echo that copys the control rig, we got no way of being like a rigger without owning a RCC for Autosofts or cyber programs and if we use a rcc to jump in, we not using our living persona so that kills the point.
do not think complex forms would be the best way to do it as you take -2 per complex forms and we can not be part of a pan right now, maybe it can uses your skils as auto softs if you could be "rcc"

Welcome to the current state of technomancers. Cool fluff, but the mechanics need work to get them to work like the fluff.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dyndrilliac on (22:11:07/01-04-16)
Here is my Technomancer wish list, in order.


That's actually it. Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of other points other folks have made in this thread, but I'm a realist and so I wanted to keep my list short and sweet, just focusing on the absolute must-haves as I see them. I understand that you don't want to go back to 4th edition where the balance of power is tilted in the opposite direction with Deckers being useless, and I think the above demands are both reasonable and feasible. Additional nice-to-haves would be paragons, streams, and small things like just clarifications on crucial TM strategies that some GMs don't want to play ball with like using Resonance Veil and Machine Sprites (but if I think a GM is an idiot I can always find another GM or run my own game, so that's less of a problem). Maybe add in additional types of Sprites if you're feeling ambitious, but deal with the more important stuff first.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (22:51:50/01-04-16)
Here is my Technomancer wish list, in order.

  • I shouldn't have to spend 6 submersions to get 6 programs. Fix core. I don't care if the devs don't like it. Do it anyway, because at the end of the day what matters is what the customers want, and everyone here seems to agree that spending more than a hundred Karma just to get the 6 most useful programs is bullshit. TMs don't need every program, and I don't mind not being able to switch and swap; make the choices permanent if you must. What I do want are Wrapper, Lockdown, Signal Scrubber, Browse, Baby Monitor, and Fork and I shouldn't have to pay a minimum of 123 Karma for what a Decker can buy with 1160 Nuyen. Fix it.
  • I want official clarification that Mind Over Machine gives you a free datajack as part of the benefits of a control rig. MMRI is crap, because what makes TMs crappy riggers is not the lack of a control rig, it's the fact that they can't slave drones to their living persona and therefore can't share programs with them. Take away the free datajack, and Mind Over Machine is completely worthless. Since MMRI doubles down on this, it already sucks and was a huge screw-up by the writers of Data Trails. Fix it.
  • I actually don't mind the ridiculous Fading values as much as everyone else. What I do want though is something akin to a mage's reagents so I can increase the limit on a low-level Complex Form without wasting Edge.

That's actually it. Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of other points other folks have made in this thread, but I'm a realist and so I wanted to keep my list short and sweet, just focusing on the absolute must-haves as I see them. I understand that you don't want to go back to 4th edition where the balance of power is tilted in the opposite direction with Deckers being useless, and I think the above demands are both reasonable and feasible. Additional nice-to-haves would be paragons, streams, and small things like just clarifications on crucial TM strategies that some GMs don't want to play ball with like using Resonance Veil and Machine Sprites (but if I think a GM is an idiot I can always find another GM or run my own game, so that's less of a problem). Maybe add in additional types of Sprites if you're feeling ambitious, but deal with the more important stuff first.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iNfhN_F5GrU/UeSwHm04hhI/AAAAAAAAA3w/CrHheoyetWY/s1600/veruca.png)

Wow... that was quite the post, lemme tell ya. =)

1) Technomancers aren't Deckers, and if you're trying to play them like one, you're pretty much doing it wrong. Which is why you have to go pretty far out of your way to mimic Decker programs, which is what you're doing after all. You aren't running Programs, you're learning how to manipulate Resonance in order to get the same effect. I agree that Submerging is a heavy price to pay for a single Program, and it would be nice if you got like 3 at a time, or maybe call them Complex Forms that require at least Grade 1 Submergence before you can learn them.

2) Mind Over Machine was never supposed to give you a Datajack. How in the hell would it? You're an ordinary metahuman, whose mind can talk to machines. Where in that does it sound like you'll end up growing a data cable out of your neck or something? That's why they reprinted MMRI in Data Trails, it was meant to replace MoM completely, and clarify for those of you who seem to think taking the Echo would make you sprout a USB cord out your ear. The point is that when you take the Echo, you can mimic the functions of a Control Rig in regards to interfacing with drones. That's it. No strings attached (literally).

3) I can agree that Reagents would be nice, especially since any genuine use of Puppeteer (probably the most popular and powerful Form) is going to give you brain damage. Although the Matrix treats Force / Level of your Forms differently, since you don't really have AOE or any of that, digital Reagents would just be a legal means of skirting the rules, instead of relying on Edge like every TM ends up having to do to stay useful and alive at the same time.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Novocrane on (23:07:20/01-04-16)
Quote
Where in that does it sound like you'll end up growing a data cable out of your neck or something?
Lets not get silly with this line again, eh? It's divisive and pointless.

"You get the benefit of a Rating 1 control rig" can be interpreted such that you can directly interface with an electronic device within 1m through the device's UDP. No biocables assumed.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dyndrilliac on (23:51:22/01-04-16)
@Marcus Gideon: Call it being an entitled brat if you want, but when customers are expected to drop hundreds of dollars on an entire line of $40-$50 expansion books, the customers have a right to be entitled brats. If I'm going to buy these books, I expect them to have material I want. Whether or not the devs include it depends entirely upon how badly they want me to buy their books. The first rule of commerce is the customer is always right. The second rule is give the people what they want.

I think 3 simple demands are pretty reasonable compared to a 23 page thread of folks trying to do some ridiculous logical gymnastics trying to figure out a way to fix things that the customers already know how to fix but the devs don't want to do it that way because it would contradict core. But hey, that's my opinion. You're welcome to your own interpretation.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (00:35:03/01-05-16)
Quote
Where in that does it sound like you'll end up growing a data cable out of your neck or something?
Lets not get silly with this line again, eh? It's divisive and pointless.

"You get the benefit of a Rating 1 control rig" can be interpreted such that you can directly interface with an electronic device within 1m through the device's UDP. No biocables assumed.
Or... it means you get to subtract 1 from the Threshold of Vehicle tests, and add 1 to the Limits, and add 1 to the dice checks. You know, all the "benefits" of a Rating 1 Control Rig.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Novocrane on (00:59:06/01-05-16)
Yes, that's another interpretation. I'm not going to discuss them here - only that pointedly misrepresenting the one you don't like does you no favours.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (11:23:57/01-05-16)
@Marcus Gideon: Call it being an entitled brat if you want, but when customers are expected to drop hundreds of dollars on an entire line of $40-$50 expansion books, the customers have a right to be entitled brats. If I'm going to buy these books, I expect them to have material I want. Whether or not the devs include it depends entirely upon how badly they want me to buy their books. The first rule of commerce is the customer is always right. The second rule is give the people what they want.

I think 3 simple demands are pretty reasonable compared to a 23 page thread of folks trying to do some ridiculous logical gymnastics trying to figure out a way to fix things that the customers already know how to fix but the devs don't want to do it that way because it would contradict core. But hey, that's my opinion. You're welcome to your own interpretation.
Here's the dilemma...

You aren't spending hundreds of dollars to buy YOUR product. You're buying THEIR product. They may be nice enough to keep your suggestions in mind when they make revisions. But unless you make your own company and publish your own game, you aren't entitled to as much as you think.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on (11:35:31/01-05-16)
I can't say I disagree with Dyndrilliac on the state of Technomancers, even if I don't agree with his methods of making demands.

No amount of supplements are going to "fix" Technomancers in SR5 in my opinion, which is why in my games players don't get the option to play one. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: tytalan on (16:14:32/01-05-16)
I think one of the major problems is no one knows what Technomancers are and are suppose to do.  We keep hearing that they are not Deckers so what do they do in the Net?  We keep hearing that they are not Riggers so why can they control drones?  I guess the real questions is what and how are they suppose to help a group of Shadowrunners if they are not suppose to run Overwatch and Datasteals from the Net and are not supposed to drive vehicles or controls a group of drones what are they supposed to be good at straight out of the box.  I other words what role in the group is my brand new Technomancer suppose to fill according to the Developers?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Kincaid on (16:21:15/01-05-16)
I think one of the major problems is no one knows what Technomancers are and are suppose to do.  We keep hearing that they are not Deckers so what do they do in the Net?  We keep hearing that they are not Riggers so why can they control drones?  I guess the real questions is what and how are they suppose to help a group of Shadowrunners if they are not suppose to run Overwatch and Datasteals from the Net and are not supposed to drive vehicles or controls a group of drones what are they supposed to be good at straight out of the box.  I other words what role in the group is my brand new Technomancer suppose to fill according to the Developers?

TMs need some love, I won't deny that, but in the meantime, here's a thread that addressed some of these issues.

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21487.0
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dyndrilliac on (16:50:31/01-05-16)
@Marcus Gideon: Call it being an entitled brat if you want, but when customers are expected to drop hundreds of dollars on an entire line of $40-$50 expansion books, the customers have a right to be entitled brats. If I'm going to buy these books, I expect them to have material I want. Whether or not the devs include it depends entirely upon how badly they want me to buy their books. The first rule of commerce is the customer is always right. The second rule is give the people what they want.

I think 3 simple demands are pretty reasonable compared to a 23 page thread of folks trying to do some ridiculous logical gymnastics trying to figure out a way to fix things that the customers already know how to fix but the devs don't want to do it that way because it would contradict core. But hey, that's my opinion. You're welcome to your own interpretation.
Here's the dilemma...

You aren't spending hundreds of dollars to buy YOUR product. You're buying THEIR product. They may be nice enough to keep your suggestions in mind when they make revisions. But unless you make your own company and publish your own game, you aren't entitled to as much as you think.

Right, and if they want to actually sell their product and make any money, they need to make it attractive to their intended audience (in this case, people playing Technomancers in SR5). No one is going to buy a Technomancer book that doesn't solve the many problems of playing a Technomancer no matter how good the art may be. That's why I didn't buy Data Trails; it was supposed to be the core matrix expansion and yet didn't fix Technomancers, therefore it wasn't worth my money. There are hundreds of good tabletop systems out there, some of them free. Catalyst can rest on its laurels and hope hardcore fanboys can purchase enough of their product no matter how bad the quality is, or they can be proactive and listen to the people playing the game and give them what they want. It's entirely their choice. I'm just here to let them know that any Technomancer book that doesn't fix the 3 things I mentioned, is a non-starter for me and won't be purchased for my table. You can defend them all you want; it doesn't change the fact that I won't buy any material that I don't think is worth the money. And if enough other folks feel the same way, that's a serious dent in their bottom line. Making books isn't cheap, even with their piss-poor editing. If a company makes a book that doesn't sell, that puts them in a bad spot.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sandorian on (06:52:44/01-06-16)
I think one of the major problems is no one knows what Technomancers are and are suppose to do.  We keep hearing that they are not Deckers so what do they do in the Net?  We keep hearing that they are not Riggers so why can they control drones?  I guess the real questions is what and how are they suppose to help a group of Shadowrunners if they are not suppose to run Overwatch and Datasteals from the Net and are not supposed to drive vehicles or controls a group of drones what are they supposed to be good at straight out of the box.  I other words what role in the group is my brand new Technomancer suppose to fill according to the Developers?
I think that's the central question to be answered in the (hopefully) upcoming Technomancer PDF. If a technomancer can't steal some files or control drones they are quite useless to a team of shadowrunners most of the time.


I wrote a bunch of house rules to make the technomancer character more attractive:

1) Changes to boost their hacking ability and make some echos more attractive:
http://www.foren.pegasus.de/foren/topic/24707-technomancer-hausregel-sammlung/?p=459624

2) A number of resonance-based equipment:
http://www.foren.pegasus.de/foren/topic/24644-gadgets-neue-spielzeuge-fuer-technomancer/?p=452454

The bad news: It's in German, maybe someone wants to translate it.  ;)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dinendae on (00:55:10/01-08-16)
Would making what are complex actions with a decker into simple actions help technomancers? Going by what they are, being naturally able to hack or control machines, it seems to make some sense that technomancers would be faster at most tasks than the average decker.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: falar on (17:45:27/01-08-16)
Would making what are complex actions with a decker into simple actions help technomancers? Going by what they are, being naturally able to hack or control machines, it seems to make some sense that technomancers would be faster at most tasks than the average decker.
This would be too good. Like. Immensely too good.

However, if that was a deck benefit and a technomancer benefit, this would return decks to their rightful place of "you use a deck to hack" instead of all the people who hack with commlinks and RCCs.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (19:43:46/01-08-16)
I like the idea of making TMs better, since some of the fluff describes TMs as a squid casually swimming through the Matrix ocean, while Deckers are scuba divers who kinda plop in through the surface for a short time entirely dependent on their equipment to survive.

I don't think Decks should have all the same benefits, or it takes away the highlight to TMs. But in general, I would like to see more Simple Matrix actions, instead of every single thing being Complex.

An easy start to fixing TMs is to reduce the Fading on all their Forms. NONE of the spells Mages could cast, either from the Core or any of the supplements, are as tiring and outright dangerous to cast, as some of the Forms can be. Puppeteer is the most useful, which explains why it should be more costly. But every TM I know either avoids using it for fear of dying... or Edge through it. Which completely negates the point of giving it lethal levels of Fading, when you pretend to call it "Level 1" and re-roll 6's for a pile of successes in the end.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Kincaid on (20:10:37/01-08-16)
Fixing action economy and making TMs beefier should be separate things.  Combining them leaves deckers out in the cold, which isn't a very satisfying solution.  I'm all for differentiation, but it can't be "strictly better."
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dinendae on (23:36:36/01-08-16)
Fixing action economy and making TMs beefier should be separate things.  Combining them leaves deckers out in the cold, which isn't a very satisfying solution.  I'm all for differentiation, but it can't be "strictly better."

It comes under that "everything has a price" tagline this edition has embraced. Deckers have versatility in both the matrix and meatspace. Technomancers were supposed to be tiny matrix gods, but would be lacking outside of the matrix. Unfortunately technomancers are far behind in both areas, and I doubt they'll ever be improved for real world actions.

Dropping matrix tasks for technomancers to simple actions allows them to better aid things such as firefights, where they would have a better chance of monkeying around with enemy equipment. The decker will still have greater versatility in the sheer choice of programs they can use, being able to swap matrix attributes fairly easily, or can better participate directly in combat by using some of their more combat oriented cyberware.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (13:06:33/01-09-16)
I was Looking back on how complex forms worked in 4e to 5e.

4e matrix  complex forms work as a matrix skill+ complex form lv for that matrix action
if you need a higher dice pool or a matrix action/complex forms you do not have you could just do threading to give your self some more dice at the cost of taking some fade and a -2 to any action that not the threaded  complex form

5e has complex forms as spells and they no longer have any way to give the tm any more dice to action,only def tests and limits and you take a -2 to thing you want to use it for anyway....

All i can think of at this point is the give the tm some thing like adept power points, i like the idea of tm's but it getting to be a pain now in planing my one.




Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (10:50:53/01-25-16)
I don't want Technomancer better than Decker but want them can have chances will facing a Decker or a spider.

And i want them capable of using drones as well... Without using machine sprite swarm (that don't exist for the moment...)

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Lorebane24 on (00:50:56/01-30-16)
It's probably far, far too late to change this, but my biggest gripe with technomancers is that their living persona is shackled to their mental attributes.  Because of this, they seem to have exactly one build.  They seem to be far less flexible than any other archtype in regards to what race you can play, where you place your priorities, and what you are good at.  I've seen combat deckers that have a bit of cyberware and who can do a passable job with a shotgun, or stealthy deckers who can also sneak into places, pick a few locks, tinker with some hardware, and generally be good at being hard to spot.  Technomancers have to invest heavily into their attributes and their resonance priorities, leaving little left for strong skills, non-human races, or resources to get some cool gear, and in most situations I feel like they're still outperformed by deckers - technomancers just have a couple of little niches they fill well and tricks they can pull off that deckers can't, but, at least to me, the jury is still out on whether or not that trade off is worth it.

Ultimately, it seems impossible to build an effective technomancer hybrid.  They have to go all in with their matrix stuff, and they typically aren't that diverse in how they approach it.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: FST_Gemstar on (19:56:55/01-30-16)
I think it's been noted somewhere that perhaps technomancers should use their mental limit for matrix action limits. I think this may be overpowered but on the right track.  Perhaps some kind of derived or extra-derived Resonance limit, an analog to an Astral limit, can be calculated. Like a Resonance Limit = (Mental Limit + Resonance Attribute)/2. Perhaps this simulates that technomancer ease in the matrix is based on their connection to the Resonance and most of their Mental Attributes (as the Mental Limit is derived from). Or perhaps a Resonance Limit = (Mental Limit + Social Limit + Resonance)/3. This seems overly complicated and allows for lower Resonance technomancers to still have a high limit,  but it is a way to incorporate Charisma and Essence into this Resonance Limit as well.  Either way, a Technomancer with heavy investment in mental attributes and Resonance is going to have a high across the board limit on matrix tests. However, they still use their stats (primarily Intuition and Logic) and skills like usual to do matrix actions.

As the priority system seems to want to balance Deckers and technomancers as a Resources vs. Resonance issue but somehow the rules seem to fail at this, this Resonance limit idea may better simulate this more efficiently. Deckers are mundanes who invest resources to buy decks/programs to "scuba dive" in the matrix with variable but boostable Matrix action limits , while technomancers invest in Resonance to hack without a deck and to have a consistent, high limit in the Matrix (like a "squid" would in the ocean). Deckers may be able to get limits higher than technomancers, but it's going to cost money and free actions to change cyberdeck arrays. Technomancers don't have to worry about that.

Everything else about deckers/technomancers can stay the same. They both need lots of skills of to do matrix actions, and technomancers will still need to Tasking and Software skills to do their Resonance actions. 

I think this gives technomancers a rules functional way to explain their fluff capabilities. It gives some choices in how attributes are divided to better subspecialize or hybridize. Technomancers would still need Logic/Intuition to hack, Willpower would still be used to Resist Fade. I guess Charisma gets less of a focus in this change, but perhaps Charisma can be used for Registered sprite limit again. In this regard, attributes are still going to be important to Technomancers, but they can choose which they want to emphasize and why without losing their feeling of home in the Matrix (limit to matrix actions), regardless of how skilled they are.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (21:34:24/02-06-16)
Technomancers have to invest heavily into their attributes and their resonance priorities, leaving little left for strong skills, non-human races, or resources to get some cool gear, and in most situations I feel like they're still outperformed by deckers - technomancers just have a couple of little niches they fill well and tricks they can pull off that deckers can't, but, at least to me, the jury is still out on whether or not that trade off is worth it.

Ultimately, it seems impossible to build an effective technomancer hybrid.  They have to go all in with their matrix stuff, and they typically aren't that diverse in how they approach it.

That's how it is for TMs--  See, the rules for the matrix were written for deckers.  TMs came after, if them literally coming after with like five pages in the core book isn't obvious enough.  So everything that TMs can do that deckers can't are things not in the rules directly, because deckers can't do them, and therefore they will never come up or be required unless the GM tailors the adventure to one player.

I had one barely decent hybrid TM build, based around having mediocre (instead of absolute shit) physical attributes, R4 skillwires, and using Diagnostics.  This way I ended up with a dice pool of 11 for whatever I put into the wires.  However, they recently increased the Essence cost of skillwires for no reason, so that build got worse...  See, it needed to preserve RES in order to be able to get a good enough sprite to make the most of Diagnostics.

The build was a trainwreck though; I had 11-12 dice for matrix stuff at best, poor initiative (had to use cram all the time), and I am pretty sure I picked E for Skills, in order to afford everything else...  It, alltogether, had a "desperately cobbled together" vibe.  Rat shamans in the barrens would think I was overdoing it.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Black Mamba on (12:26:42/02-13-16)
It's been more than 8 months since this thread was started. Any chance we're actually going to see a publication before SR6 is announced?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (13:13:14/02-13-16)
It's been more than 8 months since this thread was started. Any chance we're actually going to see a publication before SR6 is announced?
You're not supposed to ask for practical products released on a regular basis. You're supposed to be pacified by the pretty pictures they release on Tumblr every once in a while about the latest fluff book coming down the pipe. =)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sendaz on (13:33:23/02-13-16)
But at least they are very nice pics. :D
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (06:05:45/02-15-16)
Any real news with that?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dinendae on (06:08:59/02-15-16)
Any real news with that?

I think the last word was that there had been a scheduling conflict with the author(s), and the project would be delayed.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sendaz on (06:52:40/02-15-16)
Rumours that Catalyst accidentally encrypted all the TM files without retaining the original security key and now can not figure out how to crack it back open remain unconfirmed at this time.

Questions arising from photos surfacing of high level CGL staff meeting various known white hat hackers for "business lunches" have likewise drawn no comment from the CGL offices, though sources within the company wishing to remain anonymous insist those are merely photoshopped haxpics used by some of the staff so as to be able to justify lunches for their expense accounts to Accounting.

:P
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: tytalan on (09:05:37/02-17-16)
I think thing are beyound Just a TM book.  We an book for all are wireless characters Rigger5 has nothing for Riggers just many mnay drones and vehicles,  Data Trails is a bust  for people playings Deckers and TM's need a Rigger and Matrix write up. 

Deckers and Riggers both need rules to make their own Decks/Consols Also something to make decking with your comm a very poor 3rd.

We all know TM's need work
This does not sound like an E_book to me it sounds like a major core book
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Mirikon on (12:23:53/02-17-16)
Yeah, so far, SR5: Nostalgia Edition has been a major letdown for me. It isn't BAD, per se, but it is like drinking flat soda. From a game design perspective, it is like they took a look at all the big games that aren't D&D or White Wolf, saw what they've been doing well, and decided to run in the other direction.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus Gideon on (19:27:52/02-17-16)
Yeah, so far, SR5: Nostalgia Edition has been a major letdown for me. It isn't BAD, per se, but it is like drinking flat soda. From a game design perspective, it is like they took a look at all the big games that aren't D&D or White Wolf, saw what they've been doing well, and decided to run in the other direction.
"Just for shits and giggles... let's do the complete opposite of what every successful RPG company has done. See where that gets us? How much you wanna bet people will still pay outrageous prices for our books, even though they're total shit? Ha ha ha!"
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dinendae on (12:03:16/02-19-16)
This does not sound like an E_book to me it sounds like a major core book


Quite frankly, they need it. Technomancers currently have one viable build that is fairly mediocre in what most teams would need their matrix specialist to do, and is still next to worthless in meatspace. I remember (earlier in this thread, if I remember correctly), that (one of?) the original author(s?) slated for this stated that word from on up was that there weren't to be any rewrites or major changes. I'm hoping they change their mind on that.  :-\
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Club on (20:04:07/02-23-16)
I suppose I really should read through the entire thread...

Nah.

I've only played a techno once, and that was core book only.

Chargen is a problem, technos are MAD and need a huge number of skills. Plus they want complex forms. They either need to specialize purely in techno or they suck; a decker can usually have a secondary specialty.. Which leads to the next problem

Technos are high reward characters, but the risk of fading with the main complex forms is absurd for something you need to repeat turn after turn after turn. Sprites are better, but are a finite resource that can be chewed through fast. If they do it the conventional method, with marks, you run into the fact that they aren't  nearly as good as good as a decker at that.

Most devastatingly, in my experience they really aren't all that good at defense. The decker can keep his team's wireless gear functioning fairly easy. A techno needs to dedicate significant resources (Infusion of firewall and/or sprites) to achieve the same.

The strengths of the techno should be complex forms and sprites. But CFs have too much fading for regular use, leaving us just sprites.

If any one of the problems I mentioned weren't extant (chargen resource vacuum, sucking at defense, CF fading) a techno would be good. But it's a one trick pony that's average at it's one trick.

-----

Anyone ever try a TM that focuses on sprites for it's matrix assets, and skimps his own hacking skills? How viable would that be? Because an Aspected Technomancer would be a possible fix -
 - missing either a matrix attribute (So no Attack or no Sleeze,) or missing CFs, or missing sprites. Make up the difference with more automatic skills, or even help with CF fading
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dinendae on (06:26:15/02-24-16)
There's a thread titled Petnomancer that tackles using mostly sprites to do things.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (08:18:53/02-24-16)
So the only valid build of technomancer is the petnomancer...

That sucks
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sandorian on (08:37:41/02-24-16)
Playing with sprites is like playing with a bunch of deckers: You keep rolling dice for an almost endless number of times. - That's no fun at all. (And Sprites are not that good at hacking.)

As mentioned before the main problem with the TM is: The matrix chapter was written to work for deckers. And the TM chapter was written within 10 minutes to closing time on Friday evening.



Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: living on (22:21:52/03-05-16)
the annoying thing is announcing sth and then dont communicate after the date. i guess every one will understand good reason for delays, or even help to fix issues. a lot of players a pretty familiar with char creation and scaling. i for myself have made countless builds and looked for exploids or stumbled over unclear ruling. i dont know how much consulting is there, but i guess for a free copy of the book it would be possible to get a lot of help from the community (not that they decide how things should work, but that they explain flaws or implications of new rulings).

i would mind the time i spend anyway on it to share some calculations or loopholes with devolpers. and most are an easy fix.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (10:32:21/03-10-16)
Anything from anyone?

nope nothing new...

Thanks...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dinendae on (22:45:09/03-10-16)
So the only valid build of technomancer is the petnomancer...

That sucks


There's actually another build that appears to be viable, from what people said; I just found out about it last night. You can find one of those builds here: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21310.msg383075#msg383075 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21310.msg383075#msg383075)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dinendae on (22:49:43/03-10-16)
Anything from anyone?

nope nothing new...

Thanks...


If you're looking for actual news on the Technomancer project, it's probably not going to appear here. You'll need to keep an eye on the Catalyst's Shadowrun Products subforum: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?board=11.0 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?board=11.0)  When news about the supplement does come, it'll appear on their social media and there first, generally. Usually you'll see art appear for the book a bit before it releases.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (07:09:06/03-15-16)
You're not supposed to ask for practical products released on a regular basis. You're supposed to be pacified by the pretty pictures they release on Tumblr every once in a while about the latest fluff book coming down the pipe. =)
This.

And the most baffling part: Most tables - missions or not - would gladly pick any usable crunch book over these fraggin´ fluffballs, be it the one that makes TMs finally remotely usable (or or at least promises to do so until you buy it) or the real Matrix and Rigger Supplements (I mean, the ones we got can´t be it, right?), or a book that actually make alchemy a worthy choice, etc.

Because

a. It´s needed to make core aspects of the game work.
b. the fluff stuff is happening way too fast already.
c. We are roleplayers, goddammit. We don´t want just to read how the story unfolds around us, we want to be part in it. More so, we want to make our own.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: CitizenJoe on (11:47:38/03-15-16)
This is probably the wrong place but the speed of proves was brought up.

As I recall, the old schedule was 1 year real world publication was 1 season of game time.  So, the game world advanced at one quarter the speed of the real world.  It seems like that changed to a one to one ratio.  I'm seeing 2077 stuff and I still haven't satisfactorily explored 2072, let alone 2075.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (12:12:09/03-15-16)
Not true.  SR has always essentially advanced at a 1:1 speed.  One 'season' of Missions was a set grouping - Seattle, Denver, New York, etc. - not 91 days.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (13:13:02/03-16-16)
And about the technmancer new book?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on (01:35:24/03-17-16)
I'm sorry, was that addressed to me?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (04:26:23/03-17-16)
Not really it's just the title of the thread that's all...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (13:05:27/03-21-16)
Hmm, is this finally the point where we can declare the TM splatbook for dead?
But wait, we will never know for sure!

Say Hooray for NDA  ;D
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Mirikon on (14:26:34/03-21-16)
The TM book will be released at the end of 5th edition, as TMs have taken the red headed stepchild position away from Riggers.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (18:46:32/03-21-16)
The TM book will be released at the end of 5th edition, as TMs have taken the red headed stepchild position away from Riggers.

Not sure if sarcasm or official  ???

Anyways, at least this would be an answer.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: shayhulut on (16:08:07/04-29-16)
i sat down and wrote some thoughts down. please feel free to comment (please be nice, i am new to the forum) but the TM in SR5th really is underwhelming and needs some love

Book: "Mind over Matter"

matrix actions:
   some actions can not be done by technomancer
      *change icon: impossible for TM (now complex form for him)
      *format device: impossible vs TM
      *jack out: impossible for TM (see below)
      *matrix search: +2 for TM
      *reboot device: impossible vs TM
      *trace icon: +2 defense for TM

rules for the matrix:
   *change icon: becomes complex form
   *overwatch is not increasing over time, but TM cannot reboot, so always necessary to look for marks and delete them and to lower OW score with complex form
   *skinlink: general feat of the TM; can connect to everything he touches
   *spleep: disconnected from the matrix

complex forms:
   *editor: TM can read/write/erease/change file. does not matter if it is encrypted; will trigger data bombs
   *resonance channel: (changed)
      Target: Device
      Duration: S
      FV: L+1
      you can connect to any device that you can see; if not visible: what you know very well (FAQ with at least 4 hits or extended search in the matrix 8,12 hours); or that
      you have at least 2 marks on; TM can connect to any device, even if it is not connected to the matrix (need to have electronics from 2055+);
      resist with Willpower + Firewall
   *change icon: (new)
      Target: self
      Duration: P
      FV: L-3
         technomancer changes his icon to anything he likes; because of the strange nature of his bio-node, a matrix perception with threshold=[net-hits] shows,
         that something is wrong with the icon
   *emulate program: (new)
      Target: self
      Duration: S
      FV: L-1
      you can emulate [raiting] standard and/or hacking programs simultaniously (owner and accessible on a device); no test necessary;


skills:
   *decompile: removed
   *threading: all complex forms are now resonance+raiting [mental limit]; threading becomes a pool you can put to the test (max raiting) or resist the fade; replace decompile in
      the tasken group
   *compile: gains the effect from decompile;

sprite binding:
   *new task for registered sprites: if you bind the sprite, it loose all its remaining tasks; each bound sprite will provide a special bonus; after 24h, the sprite needs to become one
      with the resonance again and will vanish; this is a teamwork action: TM resonance+threading [metal limit] (leader) + sprite raitingx2[sprite raiting] (assistant) vs Willpower + Firewall;
      sprites can not do anything else if there are bound to something; TM can use a simple action to end binding of a sprite; takes [sprite raiting] complex actions
      
   *courier sprite:
      <Resonance Transfer>
      bounds to a device/host:
      you ignore [nt-hits]x2 noise because of distance and get +[net-hits] Matrix INI; if fault sprite uses his power, opposed test; winner gains all his advantages, loser gets nothing

   *crack sprite:
      <Enemy Within>
      bounds to a device/host
      sprite will slumber in the boot sector; if activated (simple action) TM that compiled&registered sprite always counts to have [net-hits] marks on the target; when activated, sprite can be
      found (normal matrix perception) and attacked; if deactivated (simple action; out of combat) it is invisble for the device/host; if device/host looks for marks and wins against spirte, sprite becomes visible
      
   *data sprite:
      <Knowledge is Power>
      bounds with matrix/device/host
      no defense from the matrix, device/host defend as usual; all matrix searches in the matrix/device/host lower there threshold by [net-hits] and half the search time (additionally to
      browser program)

   *fault sprite:
      <resonance bombardment>
      bounds with matrix/device/host
      no defense from the matrix, device/host defend as usual; generets a background noise of [net-hits] for everyone but the TM and the fault sprite(friends, foes and other sprites);
      non-resonance nose reduction does not lower this noise; will affect only host/device or an circle area of [net-hits]x100 meter

   *machine sprite:
      <Ghost in the Shell>
      bounds with a vehicle/drone
      while bound to the vehicle/drone, the sprite becomes the pilot; has all autosoft and skills on raiting [net-hits]; can only operate the drone; drone cant be rigged;
      raiting is the limit for all purposes, that are not already covered by other limits (handling, accuracy etc still in effect); follows all orders from TM in the drone (unlimited); can control enemy vehicles
      Diagnostic: give bonus for build & repair teamwork (not use anymore)
      Electronic Storm: removed
   
echos:
   *all increase attribute echos are removed;
   *resonance [program]: deleted
   *skinlink: deleted; now general ability
   *biowire:
      this echo provides raiting [submersion/2] skilljack and skill wires (max 6); still needs the software (cannot be emulated)
   *brain/quantumfield correlation:
      your thoughts are to fast; +[submersion/2] (max +6) for defense against getting marks
   *overcharged reflexes
      each level gives +1 reaction and +1 INI dice; not compatible with any other INI enhancement; not in the matrix; can be taken 3 times
   *no sleep for the wicked
      better sleep regulator; 20 hours of sleep a week is necessary; can be awake 6 days and then sleep 20 hours or can split it at any rate; can fall asleep instantly; can
      awake instantly
   *i am batman
      radarsensor with raiting [submersion/2] (max 6)
   
the overall raw matrix power is not affacted. because of the bio-node, a mancer will still lack the deck attributes of a decker and because of more skills, he will also be a bit shorter on the karma side (plus submersion). also he needs to sustain the programs, so a lot of them will make no sense (-2 at all rolls, so defense as well <imho>). but he would be more versitile and could develop in different directions

i have a lot of other ideas, like ritual spellcasting for TM ("Foundation forging"), echos or a TM-only Host. feel free to contact me if you are interessted (and of course, feel free to use what you want to use)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Club on (16:22:01/05-14-16)
After a bit more thought, I'm wondering if TMs should be considered the equivalent of D&D (3.5) bards - buffing and debuffing tech as a primary role, and hacking/rigging as their secondary roles

Diffusion/infusion of attribute
Pulse Storm
Diagnostics
Gremlins

A second matrix character can wreck anyone that a technomancer has paid attention to, infusion of firewall will make the guy protecting the team's gear much tougher, machine sprites do wonderful things to vehicles and smartlinks, riggers and sams -fear- fault sprites.

But if this theory is true, the buffs and debuffs aren't quite good enough to make up for the fact that it's still a support role, with a weak ability to do its secondary role.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Hobbes on (08:06:48/05-23-16)
For those of you not on the Reddit forums one of the Freelancers has commented that the TM book is a long way out still.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/4kjyfq/list_of_upcoming_books_and_technomancer/

Based on the user names I'd guess is was the Yue who started this thread as well.

FYI. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (05:04:04/05-25-16)
Well, that´s something.
Also, this probably leaves us more time for discussing own suggestions and musings.
Maybe some of them will be considered after all  ;)

Speaking of which:
I like shayhulut´s idea of TMs having problems with adjusting the look of their living persona. Makes a lot of sense. However, I wouldn´t model this as something a TM generally can´t  do and needs a Complex Form for - Complex Forms to do things every normal Hacker (and even Commlink users) can do without any effort is something we should move away from.

Instead, I would model this as an optional negative Quality for a variable Bonus Karma. Something like this:

Inflexible Avatar (TM-only, 5-15 Karma)
The Technomancer has problems to alter the appearance of her living persona.
Depending on the Karma Bonus taken for this Quality, the TMs Avatar

Similar to this, there could also be a Negative Quality for TMs that makes their Avatar a constant reflection of their feelings and desires (glowing when excited or angry etc.), providing a bonus for Onlookers in the Matrix for judge intention tests and the like.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (14:13:12/05-27-16)
I was looking over sprites from 4e and miss that you could get spirtes that had more programs base on their lv.

For 5e they just do what ever they got in their skill box but in 4e, data sprites could run linguasofts (about the best use i can think of them outside of legwork) and machine sprites could run drone auto softs, You could even get program options like rust and area for attack.

 i think giving some sprites some options in what they could do would give a bit variety in use and better use of registering then just making sure you got one on call at all times.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Dinendae on (23:31:32/05-27-16)
I was looking over sprites from 4e and miss that you could get spirtes that had more programs base on their lv.

For 5e they just do what ever they got in their skill box but in 4e, data sprites could run linguasofts (about the best use i can think of them outside of legwork) and machine sprites could run drone auto softs, You could even get program options like rust and area for attack.

 i think giving some sprites some options in what they could do would give a bit variety in use and better use of registering then just making sure you got one on call at all times.


From the looks of things Technomancers are getting the rework they have so desperately needed in SR5, including possible lore changes. I'm curious to see of they will swing them back towards their Otaku origins (hopefully minus the needing to be a kid part)?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (05:42:56/05-28-16)
From what i ask of puck, how hard fading is right now is canon but other technomancer have work out how to do it with less fade.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/4k95iw/im_puck_former_white_banded_otaku_and_former/d3e5m1f?context=3

Did try to ask about Daemons but got "Everything changes and nothing changes. Same goes for Daemons and Sprites. " so hoping that means they will be about in some form.
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/4k95iw/im_puck_former_white_banded_otaku_and_former/d3dwj8v?context=3
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (10:09:45/05-28-16)
So the current qualms of the Technomancers are the temporal consequences of the ingame Matrix Rework,
and the (hopefully) upcoming buff via the new Supplement will reflect how TMs slowly adapt to it over the years?

Well, that would actually make sense   :D

Anyways:
With Howling Shadows out*, I´d like to add a new suggestion for an Echo:
Bonding with Technocritters and/or Protosapients, analogous to the way Adepts can attune themselves to animals!
Having your own pet Bastet or Libertine would be soooo cool  ;D

Plus, some Technocritter Powers would also make great new Echoes and/or Complex Forms.

*Great job there, btw!**
 
**That is, for the content itself. The obviously forgotten deliberately omitted prices for pets is a whole different story.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: fseperent on (14:26:40/05-30-16)
I have an idea for a new quality for technomancers.
Closed Otaku Syndrome
Cost: 20
Does not apply to quality limits

Despite being exposed to the wireless Matrix for over a decade, you are not able to connect to it on your own.
However, that's not entirely a bad thing.
True, you can't see AR or VR without technological support, nor can you sent your living persona out into the
wilds of the wireless Matrix.
However, unless you use your Resonance powers or using your living persona, you wouldn't register an a
technomancer.
Also, you have Resonance Riding and can thread Complex forms through the secondary system's persona.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: JmOz01 on (16:02:12/06-25-16)
I have been thinking about this for awhile, and these are suggestions I would have:

1) More meat space abilities.  For some reason Drones seem the way to go for this for me.  Maybe a not as good as a control rig ability (to save the value of the MMRI).  Possibly allow them to jump in, w/o any other bonuses as a CF

2) Skinlink...NATURAL ABILITY

3) A CF that allows them to read Program Modules and use the program inside.  The CF should be able to be threaded multiple times but at a penalty.  Note this would not let them "Learn the program" putting them on par in some ways with a decker, they would have to spend more on programs, they could still use a echo to learn the programs.

4) Fake Decks...It has come up at my table a few times how much a "fake deck" would cost, and how much capability it would have (We use basically a comlink costing +25%)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (04:23:45/06-27-16)

2) Skinlink...NATURAL ABILITY


No don't Skinlink is the only way to hack rail powered drones... without avoiding them to find the security desk... This is too much powerful.

If ou want something that is less powerfull, use your link to give with it a shared wifi...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (12:08:03/08-23-16)
Any new here?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (16:39:43/08-27-16)
Other then hope that the errata helps things for tm's, not a lot.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Wunderkid on (17:50:48/09-15-16)
Not sure if this has been mentioned already but a band-aid fix that's been applied at our table is to have techno adepts. Almost identical to mystic adepts. This on the surface seems to have balanced out slightly the missing out on cyber.

If I had to make any suggestions it would be along the same lines as what seems to have been said a lot already.

1) a money sink. Just something that you can throw money at.

2) skinlink at base. Or a quality that allows you to access it.

3) some kind of defence against biofeedback (this may be my newness to the system but as I understand it if a decker hits a technomancer with biofeedback then the technomancer takes double damage from this. Seems unnecessarily lethal). But please correct me if I'm wrong.

4) perhaps subdividing submersion into more specialised areas. So to be a hacker technomancer you'll make X choices at submersion. To be a sprite focused one Y choices. Rigger Z. And complex forms so on. Keeps the core rules the same but let's the buffing occur when the player submerges and brings the TM in line with the decker from there without them treading on toes.

5) basically the techno adept idea mentioned above. I think this could be a good way of giving the TM meats pace capabilities. If you want a full hacker then you go full TM. If you want a TM who can do meats pace stuff the  you can go techno adept. Basically the other side of the coin to magicians and mystic adepts.

Lastly and I ask this knowing that it's unlikely anyone will no the answer, do we have any idea of a very rough eta for this book? Or if the freelancer still checks here?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Lorebane24 on (21:53:51/09-15-16)

2) Skinlink...NATURAL ABILITY


No don't Skinlink is the only way to hack rail powered drones... without avoiding them to find the security desk... This is too much powerful.

If ou want something that is less powerfull, use your link to give with it a shared wifi...

This seems to be a contentious subject, and I think your argument has some merit here, but there are also a few counterpoints to take into consideration.  The first is that there SHOULD be a few things that technomancers can do that a decker cannot.  More obviously, a technomancer being unable to form a direct connection without going through submersion is pretty crippling, and even if they submerge fast, skinlink is basically mandatory for their first echo.  It's more of an ability tax than anything else.

At the same time, allowing them to easily mark anything just by brushing a finger up against it is an easily abused ability.

What I've been doing is giving all technomancers a lesser form of skinlink.  It only works if they touch something with their fingertips (leaving prints behind), AND they must go into VR to use it, leaving them defenseless, and making it rather obvious when they're using it.  The skinlink echo then allows them to make this connection in AR, and to use any bit of exposed skin to form the connection.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (04:53:21/09-16-16)
(I didn't saw the faq
I think widgets should be a good way to do all needed tricks of technomancers AND should be natural to every of them.
at a cost between 1 to 5 karma depending on the ability we could have.
Lesser Skinlink  at 2
upgradabe to Full Skinlink  for 3 more karma
1 maintening widget for specific use at 2 karma
1 maintening widget for universal use at 5 karma
1 fixed resonance program widget at 2 karma
1 universal resonance program at 5 karma
and every thing you think of here

a number of active widget at a time limited by resonnance or something like that
Not very powerfull compared to a decker a little more versatility...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (05:27:01/10-06-16)
Anything new? like a title?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (03:20:11/10-11-16)
*Emergent Tumbleweeds rolling*

However, there´s finally an official Errata to the Drain Codes in the new Errata threads:

Cleaner: L–2
Diffusion of [Matrix Attribute]: L–2
Editor: L–1
Infusion of [Matrix Attribute]: L–2
Static Veil: L–3
Pulse Storm: L–3
Puppeteer: L+1
Resonance Channel: L–3
Resonance Spike: L–3
Resonance Veil: L–3
Static Bomb: L–1
Stitches: L–3
Tattletale: L–3

Derezz: L–1
FAQ: L–3
IC Tray: L–3
Redundancy: L–3
Misread Marks: L–1

All hail Patrick Goodmann! The first official buff to Technos! I hope that the Effects of Echoes and some of these Forms will also be revisited.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (07:15:59/11-06-16)
Don´t know if this thread is still monitored (can someone write some profanities to confirm this suspicion?  ;)) or how far the devs are with TM supplement, but nevertheless: 2 (hopefully) new ideas for Complex forms:

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (16:25:23/12-07-16)
And some more Pennies to rust in the wishing well:

Complex Forms
Cryptosis: Target: Persona, Fading: L, Resistance: Willpower+Firewall. On a successfull Hit, this Complex Form makes the target unable to send coherent messages in the Matrix by messing with a number of different deep-buried protocols regarding the processing of text and speech data. Instead of meaningfull messages, the target produces just indecipherable gibberish. This mainly affects the Send Message Matrix Action, be it in the Form of written Text, speech messages or even the texts "thought up" via DNI. However, other Matrix Actions may be affected as well, if they rely on any form of natural language, f.i. the Edit File Action (When editing a Text or Audio File) or the Spoof Command Action. The effect lasts as long as the threading Technomancer sustains it. Weirdly enough, when hitting another Technomancer with this Complex Form, his/her analogous ways of language-based communication (i.e. talking, writing, typing...) are affected as well. This kinda-psychotropic side effect lasts for [Level] Minutes even after the Complex Form ends. 

Echoes
Haunting Code: One of the biggest Problem for Hackers is the fact that the effects of many Hacks and/or Complex Forms can easily be nullified if the target is rebooted. However, at least some Technomancers have found a way to weaken this measure. This Echo has one of two Effects and can be taken twice for both:
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (03:00:36/12-08-16)
WTH I'll add my 2¥ of homebrew

Elevate
Target: Device
Duration: P
Fade Value: L + 1
Target resists with Willpower + Firewall.  You put a number of MARKs equal to your net hits on target device.

Resonance Reverb
Target: Self
Duration: I
Fade Value: L - 1
You can spot devices running silently with a Sleaze up to Level within 100m of you for a number of minutes equal to your hits.

Bitflip
Target: Device
Duration: S
Fade Value: L + 1
Target resists with Willpower + Firewall. If you get any net hits you can swap two Matrix Attributes of target device. These attributes cannot be swapped by reconfiguring the device or the Configurator program for as long as you sustain this complex form or the device reboots. 

Lag Grenade
Target: Device
Duration: I
Fade Value: L + 2
Target resists with Intuition + Data Processing. For every net hit the target loses 5 from their Initiative Score.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (05:01:45/12-08-16)
two words :
Elevate may be useless because of the use of ... puppeter (with naw fading of L+1 http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=24595.msg467945#msg467945 )

I very like the three others so Techy way of life :P
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (15:15:17/12-08-16)
You're right.  I suppose L - 1 makes more sense. This creates the distinction between Elevate and Puppeteer, one used solely for marks while the other for any matrix action.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (08:00:26/01-13-17)
No news?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (14:52:33/01-14-17)
Resonance is still
Our true power is still gone
We lie stationary.

(Nope right now)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (02:06:37/01-15-17)
Perhaps this could mean something (https://twitter.com/amyveeres/status/804574658758590464)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (03:45:43/01-15-17)
Do we dare hope so?
That our time will be at hand?
I wait for more news.

(I doing posts in here as haiku as i am bored)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (05:36:25/02-06-17)
Perhaps this could mean something (https://twitter.com/amyveeres/status/804574658758590464)

Considering the rest of Amy´s twitter feed, it might also be a reference to the U.S. election  ;)

Anyways:

Slide to Unlock
Target: Device (i.e. Maglock)
Duration: P
Fade Value: L -2
Simple as that: On a Net Hit hit, you can unlock (or lock) any Maglock, which resist with its Rating*2. Spares you at least one Action - which might buy your team just the time to get out of the room before the Nerve Gas sets in. ::)

Switcharoo
Target: Persona
Duration: I
Fade Value: L +2
On a net hit, you switch places with any Persona in the Matrix you can see in the Matrix or have a Mark on. The Target resists with Willpower+Firewall. "Switching Places" includes the following effects:
You and your targets switch the Grids you are on, you switch your own and other Matrix user´s "fields of view" (meaning f.i. that someone who spotted you might lose you and sees the target instead and vice-versa. However, you might stay spotted if you´ve already been marked) and, last but not least, you switch positions between inside or outside of any host(s). Note that this might be (ab)used as a clever way to infiltrate a host - which is intentional  8)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (01:09:30/02-16-17)
It has been almost two goddamn years since this thread was started.  20 months.  Amy hasn't posted on this forum ever since the first post; nobody has heard anything about this book.  Words cannot describe...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Duellist_D on (04:41:17/02-16-17)
Well, maybe not words, but 3 letters can describe all of this pretty well :)

At least we got updated fading values and with prototype transhuman for Synaptic II, playing a Techi that isn't useless in meatspace is at least sorta possible.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (11:45:14/02-16-17)
It has been almost two goddamn years since this thread was started.  20 months.  Amy hasn't posted on this forum ever since the first post; nobody has heard anything about this book.  Words cannot describe...

But don´t you see that there are more urgent things than sneezing out a 20-Page fluff book (with aprox. 2 pages of crunch) that might actually look like someone´s finally have given a drek about Technomancy? Literally everything´s more appealing than this whole Hacking thingamabob. We don´t get it anyways. But Dude, there´s Tarot! And fearies! And with Arnachy, a complete new parallel system to maintain. Yay! Why not a book about dentistry in the sixth world? The music industry? Probably a crossover with Earthdown? The Cuthulu mythos? DnD? John Carter from Mars? Everything´s on the table, as long as there´s not too much computery stuff in it. What does that "Cyber-" in Cyberpunk mean anyways?

Also, theres not much to make out of this whole "Magic, but with Computers"-thingy. It´s not like there´s a whole thread running for almost two years to gather ideas, multiple sets of houserules floating around or even a whole chapter in the previous edition´s Matrix sourcebook. You have to build everything from scratch here!  >:(

*Sigh*

Yeah yeah, I´m salty. I´m basically a Level 12 Salt Spirit at this point. If they only weren´t so easy to summon, right?  ::)

(And before anyone connected to this is turning into a salt spirit, too: This is not a personal attack at anyone of you. I don´t know where´s the problem, nor do I know who´s responsible.  But something´s going extremely wrong here and I don´t see a reason to not be salty about it  :-\)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (16:03:50/02-16-17)
But since I don´t want to just rant:

How about another computer/media-related buzzword that would make for a pretty neat complex form:

Filterbubble
Target: Person
Duration: P
Fade Value: L -1
Make a Software+Resonance VS Data Processing+Intuition-Test. If you gain any net hits, you enclose your target inside a "filterbubble", preventing the target from percieving certain things inside the Matrix or finding them with a Matrix search. The filtered content may consist of one of the following things:
Note that the target is normally unaware of the filterbubble, unless there´s a good reason to mistrust the percieved information.
 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (18:11:48/02-16-17)
I get how you feel, Finter.  Also, I feel like "Force 12 Salt Spirit" should be your forum person title, it's a pretty great one.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (10:28:16/02-17-17)
I get how you feel, Finter.  Also, I feel like "Force 12 Salt Spirit" should be your forum person title, it's a pretty great one.

Completely with overpowered Elemental Attack [Salt] and Engulf [Salt] Critter Powers :P

Seriously, I was already contemplating to post some random profanities, just to see if this thread is still somehow monitored ;D
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (11:02:21/02-17-17)
I don't think that there is someone to monitor it...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Mirikon on (20:15:06/02-18-17)
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The TM book coming out is going to be a sure sign that 6th Edition is coming out soon. Hell, they might even announce 6th Edition before the TM book sees the light of day.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (20:31:12/02-18-17)
On Reddit, 9 months ago, Amy said something along the lines of "People more in the know than me would say a year."  But I won't be surprised if three months go by and we still don't have any information.

Granted, she also said she might have something for us in October of last year...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/4kjyfq/list_of_upcoming_books_and_technomancer/d3fktc2/
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (05:44:40/02-20-17)
Ok so no news at all...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Fabe on (13:02:11/02-20-17)
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The TM book coming out is going to be a sure sign that 6th Edition is coming out soon. Hell, they might even announce 6th Edition before the TM book sees the light of day.

So the Technomancer book is going to become the new rigger book?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Mirikon on (13:32:02/02-20-17)
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The TM book coming out is going to be a sure sign that 6th Edition is coming out soon. Hell, they might even announce 6th Edition before the TM book sees the light of day.

So the Technomancer book is going to become the new rigger book?
They've been consistently and thoroughly bent over in the prison shower by Bubba the Love Troll this edition, and we've already got a rigger book, the augmentation book, the decker book, a FACE book, and several magic books, so... yeah.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Therlen on (17:43:43/02-22-17)
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The TM book coming out is going to be a sure sign that 6th Edition is coming out soon. Hell, they might even announce 6th Edition before the TM book sees the light of day.

So the Technomancer book is going to become the new rigger book?

I don't think so.

https://twitter.com/amyveeres/status/834368170878181376
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Fabe on (18:19:40/02-22-17)
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The TM book coming out is going to be a sure sign that 6th Edition is coming out soon. Hell, they might even announce 6th Edition before the TM book sees the light of day.

So the Technomancer book is going to become the new rigger book?

I don't think so.

https://twitter.com/amyveeres/status/834368170878181376

Ok that's vague and possibly a bit ominous.,either they're given up on technos and the next big metaplot will be them all dying off or  they're getting a good fix .Hopefully there will be a more detailed announcement soon .
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (19:38:17/02-22-17)
Sounds like the TM book will be pushed back even further (like to 7th edition) in favor of other books.  Like maybe more fucking magic books?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (08:22:05/02-23-17)
Sounds like the TM book will be pushed back even further (like to 7th edition) in favor of other books.  Like maybe more fucking magic books?

They gotta be carefull, though. If they keep on with this, they might accidentally fix Alchemy ::)
Better stick to buffing Spirits and adding more Fluff that´s only going to be used by 1% of the players, ya hear me?

But seriously: "I have some good news if you don't like Technomancers..."

Could it be any more vague?  ???
Does it mean that the TM book is scrapped/delayed?
Does it mean that something terrible is going to Technomancers to eradicate them from the ongoing lore (and make room for yet more Mojostuff)?
Does it mean that Amy is (once again?) ditched by Catalyst and this is a tongue-in-cheek way of telling her followers through the veils of NDA? 
Or does it actually mean that people who don´t like the current state of Technomancers are gonna be pleased because finally something´s coming this way?
Is it a nerf or a buff? Or is it both, like nerfing Sprites in favor of less Pet-based feats?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (09:02:04/02-23-17)
The real problem is that the Matrix book do nearly nothing for Technomancers but had add a lot of tool to deckers (that's ok), AIs (i think maybe 2 players all around the world and only a GM+player game type) and deep hacking (WTF?) a lot of thing to build up deckers (and spiders) who are far away from techies. We saw a lot off (e-)book for magix, weaponx even Riggerx (yeah x because it's nearly like binge diffusion) and thechies are chained to a tree deeply in (amazonian) forest, no news, no crunch, even nearly no fluff.

When the rigger was the little red headed boy, they were playable... Technies are very hard to play well (you have poor stats boy don't cry) and nearly clones of each others (petomancers or drugs addicts to do there stuff, when every other roles take drugs to help other roles...)

Please in the next Shadowrun make both technomancers and deckers playable (int he 4th deckers where useless and techies demigods in the 5th ...) AT start, make two base streams, add paragons from the begining and meat world usable techies boost (submersion or other...)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (09:39:10/02-23-17)
Please in the next Shadowrun make both technomancers and deckers playable (...)

At this point, I´d rather say:
Please don´t make the next Shadowrun :'(

Well, maybe I´m wrong and the shit-train will finally be stopped in the near future.
Anyways, you can´t be disappointed if you have no expectations. Something I learned from this very thread....
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Hobbes on (14:25:39/02-23-17)

Does it mean that Amy is (once again?) ditched by Catalyst and this is a tongue-in-cheek way of telling her followers through the veils of NDA? 


At a stab, what Amy wrote didn't get approved by the rules team or the financing wasn't there for a new book (or something) and the project got kicked down the road (again).

Which I don't get, any Missions game or Con game I go to has a Technomancer or two at the table.  They're more popular than Samurai and Rigger characters.  I gotta think the book would sell as well as anything else, and the mechanical fixes, seriously, aren't that difficult. 

*shrug*  what do I know.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (20:16:33/02-23-17)
Technomancer didn't even have their own chapter in the matrix book.  It'd be like if Street Grimoire only mentioned adepts in passing, the Physical Magic chapter didn't exist, leaving only some rituals they could technically use and maybe a metamagic or two.  And Rigger 5.0 has absolutely nothing for technomancers in it, though this doesn't especially bother me.  Just a missed opportunity.

It baffles me that they felt the AI rules took precedent over more TM stuff...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (12:13:27/02-24-17)
https://mobile.twitter.com/amyveeres/status/835166145896382464

"Gonna be honest, I misunderstood a joke and thought I was fired and the book was canceled and freaked out over nothing. Sorry!"
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (14:25:52/02-24-17)
ok ... so absolutely NO content at all for mancers...
Nice job.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Hobbes on (14:38:22/02-24-17)
https://mobile.twitter.com/amyveeres/status/835166145896382464

"Gonna be honest, I misunderstood a joke and thought I was fired and the book was canceled and freaked out over nothing. Sorry!"

*facepalm*
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Glonthein on (08:39:41/02-26-17)
What worries me is that this may also mean that the work is far from its end, while it has almost been two years.
The urge is becoming real, even so that I'd like to give them a try, but with my GM not allowing the provisionnal errata for Fading, nor the use of Diagnostic for anything not involving a Hardware test, it really limits the playability.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (08:48:59/02-26-17)
Diagnostic maybe use for anything with a wireless connection (and weapon this a smartlink aswell)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Glonthein on (15:16:49/02-26-17)
Dragrubis : Unless there is an official errata (and I insist on that one, since he doesn't consider any errata with the status "provisionnal" on being official)  or a quote from a dev saying it works like that, my GM won't buy it : "the power says the sprite does a teamwork test with Hardware, so it will work only if you do a harware test, since that's how teamwork test works", more or less what he says, with "And I don't see how knowing how a smartgun internally works helps you using your gun".
And yeah, he is stubborn, but sadly I don't have a lot of other GMs to play with, so I make do.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: deathwishjoe on (16:07:32/02-26-17)
Quote
Dragrubis : Unless there is an official errata (and I insist on that one, since he doesn't consider any errata with the status "provisionnal" on being official)  or a quote from a dev saying it works like that, my GM won't buy it : "the power says the sprite does a teamwork test with Hardware, so it will work only if you do a harware test, since that's how teamwork test works", more or less what he says, with "And I don't see how knowing how a smartgun internally works helps you using your gun".
And yeah, he is stubborn, but sadly I don't have a lot of other GMs to play with, so I make do.

I kind of see where his interpretation comes from but is there a single use of the hardware skill you know of to use a device as opposed to simply do repairs?  One can use the hardware skill to repair or upgrade the electronics on a gun but not to use it.  The sprite power specifically states it provides these bonuses to anyone using or repairing the device. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Glonthein on (17:30:49/02-26-17)
Well, as much in his campaign as in an older one with an other GM, there were sometimes devices or new tech that necessited Hardware tests in order to be used, but except those rare cases, I agree it is somewhat limited to repair (not even construct, since you need to have the device to use diagnostic). I already had the argument, but the only way to change his mind would be to quote official stuff or someone working at catalyst saying explicitly in which cases you can use that power.
Anyway, let's not derail too much, except if someone can provide one of the above, discussing this further would be kind of pointless.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (08:22:30/02-27-17)
TBH, I wouldn´t mind if there would be an official clarification for Diagonstics that would Limit the Power to Hardware Tests or at least specifically exempt Attack Tests and "pure" Matrix Tests that don´t involve tinkering with the Hardware in some way. I wouldn´t even consider this a nerf, since it´s already balls-deep in the GM-Handwaving-Zone. I´m actually pretty surprised that the SR Missions FAQ Team hasn´t tackled this yet.

IMO, the main reason some tables allow Diagnostics to be used with Stuff like Smartgun Attacks is a kind of pitty: "Technomancers are already so weak, at least let them (respectively, one of their Sprites) be able to hyper-buff the Gun-Bunny!" I can understand this sentiment, but trying to fix the Archetype by making just one specific feature extremely powerfull is not a good strategy:

That being said: Deliberately playing without the Fading buff is something I can hardly understand. What is your GM thinking there, Glonthein? Is he just trying to leave the Overcast-Puppeteer-as-suice-button option intact?  8) 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: firebug on (10:21:08/02-27-17)
I absolutely agree, Fintersang.

It's like, "abuse Diagnostics until its black-and-blue" is basically the only build for TMs I hear, outside of "just make your sprites do everything for you".  I mean, as a Machine Sprite it makes sense for it to be something like "use Diagnostics on a drone or vehicle, you're now much better using it" as that's probably what the concept for it was as that's kind of what Machine Sprites are for.  It gives Rigger TMs a sense of uniqueness (as they can be incredibly effective while jumped into one drone, rather than working the bot-net a normal rigger can) that I hope to see expanded upon.

However, I've heard some seriously bullshit stuff (like "all cyberware technically has wireless so I put it in my Muscle Replacements and now it applies to all AGI and STR rolls") and some really on-the-line stuff (like using Diagnostics on Skillwires).  And I personally think the idea of a TM using a deck with a Machine Sprite boosting every matrix roll on it is just a massive perversion of what the archetype is supposed to be doing, but it isn't that unreasonable...  A clarification would go a long way to save so many players and GMs from headaches and arguments.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Sphinx on (10:30:38/02-27-17)
We have a house rule that says a Machine sprite's Diagnostics power (SR5 p.257) only works with Technical skills (p.143). It plays okay ... the power is still pretty strong, without being ridiculous.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Glonthein on (11:14:51/02-27-17)
Finstersang : What he is thinking is : "I don't consider provisionnal errata to be viable, since it is still under test. Until it has an official status, you do with RAW." It's not only technomancer though, it works for any provisionnal Errata  Patrick Goodman has given us on this forum.
And you see, if I ever wanted to use the insta-win button that is puppeteer (his words, not mine), I could always thread it at level 1 and pre-edge it for limit break. No big deal, right ? *ahem ahem*

However I do agree about not allowing Diagnostic on everything ; I did ask for it to be usable on matrix related devices and drones at least, but even that was denied. Sphinx option does seem nice too, but I won't even bother to ask at that point.
All of this being why I'm having a hard time waiting for the technomancer book in the hope  that it gives new options and clarifications on the already existing stuff.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Hobbes on (11:47:25/02-27-17)
Always talk to the GM about Technomancers before playing one.  Ask, "How does Diagnostics Work?"  "Can Sprites Assist?" , "Does Editor CF bypass Data Bombs and File Encryption?"  , "What are the table limits for Puppeteer/Resonance Veil?".  Those are the common points of contention I see on the forums. 

If you don't like the answers, make a Decker (or whatever) and carry on.

Deckers do their job with large dice pools, Technomancers can't get those kinds of pools without some friendly rules interpretation (Sprite Assistance), or be able to do the clever Technomancer things with CFs and Sprites to get the job done.  If the GM isn't going to be somewhat open to letting the TM do the job, the first decent rating Host you run into will stomp you flat.

And Meat Space Technomancers are just sad, generally. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Fabe on (12:04:03/02-27-17)
ok ... so absolutely NO content at all for mancers...
Nice job.

 I hope not. No one in my group is playing a techomancer but ever class/archetype in the game should be playable and from the sounds of it technos aren't worth the trouble to play. hopefully we'll still see this book.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (05:09:22/02-28-17)
ok ... so absolutely NO content at all for mancers...
Nice job.

 I hope not. No one in my group is playing a techomancer but ever class/archetype in the game should be playable and from the sounds of it technos aren't worth the trouble to play. hopefully we'll still see this book.

When i'll see this book i'll see if there is something to have a shadowrun usable tekky... (can handle a gun -or something else-, and do his own stuff well without rules tricks awarded by a gentle GM)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (19:11:48/03-10-17)
It's been too long since nothing happened. Here's my crack at Tank Sprites.

A L+1
S L-2
D L+2
F L+4

Skills: Computer, Cybercombat
Powers: Taunt

Taunt: Resonance + Cybercombat [Attack] vs. Host Rating x 2
When a Sprite uses this power, it effects a number IC equal to its Level. Make one roll and compare it to the IC effected. Each IC you get any net hits on is compelled to target this Sprite with any Matrix action it would take for a number of actions equal to the net hits. If the IC is reloaded the Power no longer effects it (as it is effectively "new"). This Power does not work outside of a Host.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: manchuwook on (12:10:53/03-21-17)
I also wouldn't mind seeing something done more useful with the Wrapper program.  For instance, being able to change {Sleaze | Sleaze/2 | Sleaze/3 | Data Processing | Relevant Skill Check} traits for the icon.  Making the picture of a persona look like a credstick (through "the lens of the matrix") doesn't seem to mean much when you can just put 1 die towards asking what its Sleaze rating is at minimal cost - it wouldn't even seem unreasonable to do that out of habit.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Frogsplosion on (18:27:01/04-02-17)
I'm very new to the system, so I might not be the best to comment on what technomancers need, but I tried maybe five different ways of building a techno as my first character and wasn't satisfied with any of them. Even with maximum mental stats and maxed out matrix skills, my highest dice pool for matrix actions was 14, I was rolling 12 dice vs matrix perception, I had to ask for GM rulings on half of my abilities because the rules are either vague or poorly explained, and I was basically useless outside of the matrix unless I started skimping on matrix skills because of how insanely resource dependent technos feel.

By contrast, I made my first ever decker, splashed in Mystic Adept and my first draft ended up with a character that rolls 28+ dice vs matrix perception, 20+ dice on most attack actions, 17 on most sleaze actions and only suffered in the data bomb and matrix perception department because I couldn't find any ways to increase it beyond doing enough jobs to bump intuition beyond 4, and still rolls 13 dice at all 5 of my really useful force 3 manipulation spells and fires 13 dice with an smg before take aim. And the thing is, I don't feel like I needed to work that hard to put it together. All it took was reading all the core books and understanding how the mechanics worked.

The techno was a lot of reading online threads about limits on sprites, resonance veil, wireless interaction, puppeteer, hell almost every technomancer power had threads asking about how they worked. My experience with the Decker Mystic Adept on the other hand is that I built a character and instantly understood how all of the mechanics worked once I read them a single time, because the rules were explicit, detailed and made sense. Not that I couldn't complain about the organization of the books, good god it can be really problematic finding things in the core rule book.

On top of having a bunch of badly written abilities, the techno's submersion bonuses are basically programs and wares you need to pay exorbitant amounts of karma for (one of them literally gives you a program) whereas a decker can literally just buy wares and programs dirt cheap at chargen and be good to go. I was also constantly fighting with the priority system as a techno trying to find the best mix because I needed pretty much everything as high priority as possible. The decker again was super easy to put together in a way that made sense and there was plenty of room to play with priority to build it many different ways that all felt adequate (and one that turned out to be super dumb).

Of course, from my new player perspective it's hard for me to tell if technos are super weak, or deckers are simply really really op.

I would love to see more real technomancy. Magicians in Street Grimoire got Increase/Decrease Noise, Increase/Decrease Gear Limit, Interference, Analyze Device, Fix, why exactly don't technos have options like this? Diagnostics on guns and other things honestly should be a technomancer staple if they're going to be so MAD, they have to get extra support somewhere. Where are all the cool abilities that let me take direct control of technology, animate it and turn it against it's owner literally. A meatspace equivalent to Animate Object/Puppeteer for tech would be hot, Gremlins should've just been a complex form. Technos should be the undisputed masters of matrix trickery, right now they feel like a three legged horse in a NASCAR race.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (21:56:06/04-03-17)
Of course, from my new player perspective it's hard for me to tell if technos are super weak, or deckers are simply really really op
Yes and yes.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (08:28:00/04-06-17)
I would love to see more real technomancy. Magicians in Street Grimoire got Increase/Decrease Noise, Increase/Decrease Gear Limit, Interference, Analyze Device, Fix, why exactly don't technos have options like this?
This.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (22:48:43/04-11-17)
One more Homebrew CF:

Prestidigitization
Target: Device
Duration: I
Fade Value: L - 2

Target device resists with Willpower + Firewall. If you win the Opposed Test the device and any slaved devices do not benefit from any wireless on effects. A device must reboot in order to gain any benefit from wireless on effects.
//edited for clarity
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (03:05:20/04-12-17)
this one is really amazing (and fun) the cherry on the cake : enjoy ejection chock :D
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: belaran on (08:40:01/04-15-17)
Is there any update on this upcoming book ? Is it still being written ? (I heard somewhere the ebooks was in fact cancelled).
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (18:21:40/04-15-17)
I don't imagine Catalyst would say anything given their history. In the mean time there's some in-community work being done on adapting the 4th TM stuff to 5th.

To add to the brew:
Data Buffer
Target: Device
Duration: S
Fade Value: L - 3
Target device gains additional dice equal to your hits to resist Matrix Damage and, if applicable, Biofeedback Damage.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Zukkel on (18:39:10/04-20-17)
Holy fuckin Christ.

2 years ago I started a Thread in the german Shadowrun Forums, for feedback for this Project, it ramped up to 13 pages of in depth brainstorming which was translated and put here and there is still nothing.

I can't even describe how frustrated I am with this whole situation.

Sorry for venting. Gonna dissapear in my hole again. See you in another 2 years  :'(
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (18:51:58/04-20-17)
And here's a submersion!

Mutable Persona:
You gain a number of attribute points equal to your submersion grade to add to your ASDF array. These points can be reconfigured like a cyberdeck.

Example:
Jade recently finished her second submersion. Now having both Skinlink and Mutable Persona, she feels confident in her Matrix prowess. Her Living Persona is A 5, S 7, D 8, F 6. With her two points from Mutable Persona she boosts her Attack and Firewall by one each, making her ASDF now 6, 7, 8, 7.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (03:28:19/04-21-17)
oh My ... God! This one is a really good answer!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (10:14:09/04-21-17)
Thanks :)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (02:43:40/04-23-17)
I guess I'm on a roll.

Enhance Firmware
Target: Device
Duration: S
Fade Value: L + 1
Improving the preexisting software on a device, this complex form adds a number of dice equal to your hits when using it. A device can only benefit from this if it is also benefiting from a wireless on effect of it. This only adds to rolls in which the wireless on effect is being used.

Example:[spoiler]Jade Threads Enhance Firmware on her Ares Predator V at Level 3. She rolls her Software 5 and her Resonance 6 and get 4 hits. Only three of the hits are kept because of the limit from the Complex Form's Level. She then rolls to resist Fade with her Willpower 5 and Resonance 6 only getting 3 hits. Ow, 1 Stun damage is lame, but she can make it. Once in a scuffle, she rolls her Pistols 3 + Agility 3 + 1 from smartgun + 3 from Enhanced Firmware and a -2 for sustaining it, totaling a dice pool of 8. She may want to take a moment to aim up her shot.[/spoiler]

Thoughts:
[spoiler]I kind of want to name the above CF "AMP" (Augment Matrix Performance). Also I could see the argument for making it last [Level] minutes. I also kinda like the idea of a downside to this. If it is sustained for a number of hours equal to the Device's Rating, it suffers damage or gains gremlins... something.

I'm open to suggestions.[/spoiler]

Data Surge
Target: Self
Duration: I
Fade Value: L + 2
All (wireless on, natch) devices within [Level] meters of you must win an Opposed Test with Willpower + Firewall or reboot. Only devices with a Device Rating less than or equal to the Level are affected. Devices that are slaved can use the Master's defense pool, however the device's rating still determines if it is affected. This has no effect in a host.

Cryptext
Target: File
Duration: P
Fade Value: L - 1
By saturating a file with Resonance you can create a sort of subfile within the file. The data you place within the file is unviewable to those unaware of its existence. To access the subfile you must first find it with a Matrix Perception text with a threshold equal to its hits; it is considered to be running silent. If/once you spot it, you'll need to decrypt it with an Opposed Test using Crack File against Level * 2. Alternatively you can simply access it if your persona has permissions to use/read/write it (set up at the time of Threading). Still you must first find it before you can use it.
The Level of the Complex Form determines the size and complexity of the data that which is being hidden.
Example:
  • About a paragraph of text
  • A file such as song or document
  • A folder containing some files
  • An entire discography, entire building blueprints
  • 3d blueprints, short clip of simsense, detailed autobiography,  complicated formula
  • A flatscreen movie, approx 10 minutes of trideo or simsense recording, a folder containing several files, etc
  • Entire contents of a datachip
Resonance Realm
Cyberia
In the far reaches of Resonance is the realm of Cyberia. An arctic landscape envelops the vast and perilous area. Vicious incarnations of the Matrix's IC prey upon those who venture out this far, taking form of nightmarish amalgamations of nature's predators. Know sightings include Moosewolves, Tigorillas, Spiderfoxes, Minnowtaurs, and Leopardowls. Aside from the deadly "fauna", the climate's conditions are just as ruthless with biting gales that shiver your bones and snowstorms which freeze the blood in your veins. "Why come here", you're probably thinking. Rumors speak of someone (or thing) that has existed since the beginning of the Matrix and resides here in seclusion. It's survived of both crashes and knows the most protected or forgotten secrets of the Matrix. Just be careful if you looking for it. Those that say they've seen it speak of it changing into any form at will.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (03:47:56/04-23-17)
You have great ideas omae.

Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (21:52:01/04-25-17)
Bump for edits and one more:

AVOID (Alternate Verification Of IDentity)
Target: Device
Duration: I
Fade Value: L + 2
In the wave of a hand, you pull together Resonance like quantum-code to forge a temporary Fake SIN. Your hits determine the rating of the Fake SIN. This Complex Form only works in one instance of a SIN check. Each use of this generates a "new" SIN, although you are capable of making it applicable in regards to your metatype, sex, height, etc. If the SIN check fails, the device alerts the owner of foul play (such as "this is fake", "I've been hacked", etc). If the device beats the threshold with a number of hits equal to your hits, the device alerts its owner that Resonance is being used.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (03:39:22/04-26-17)
I think that the fade value is to much
if you have the ability to maintain the same SIN i didn't say but there is a break in the usability here...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Darrek Workman on (20:02:51/05-02-17)
O.K. It seems to me that giving GMs advice on how to run a game with technomancers is very important. Beyond that here are some Ideas

1. something like a reverse cyberdeck specific to technomancers: something that might allow them to use regular programs while at the same time letting them use their living personas, a cyberdeck that essentially reverses the paradigm of the decker jacking into the deck into the deck being jacked into the technomacer and letting the technomancer use it's programs while in the matrix.  This could give the technomancer something to spend nuyen on and still keep the flavor of the character (plus given all the technomancers trying to use fake commlinks and cyberdecks someone is bound to figure out a way to use it for their advantage)

2. Free the sprites: rules on free sprites would go a long way and introduce a new menace/friend to the party.  To make it really fun include advice and rules that allow resonance entities (including technomancers) to mess with the real world through machines.  Sprite pacts might prove amusing to.

3. More matrix weirdness: with resonance realms and more technocritters the gm can be given new options to keep an otherwise poor character type relevant to the game.  Mages are needed to deal with magic and technomancers need to have challenges the group needs them to handle.  More challenges that just leave the deckers and riggers scratching their heads in the matrix means the technomancers become a more viable character build.

4. Nano or something like it: small machines that technomancers could use to become more capable in meatspace. There's a wide range of possibilities here and the great thing is that some of it could be resonance specific toys (like foci are for magic).  Or maybe new technopets that respond well to TMs.  This could fill the role of foci without stepping on the mages toes.

5. More diverse options for TMs: allow players to play up the weird way TMs relate to tech. The weirder the better.  This will also make it easier for other characters because the more options TMs have the less they will be stepping on other players toes (deckers, riggers, and rarely mages).

6. Resonance/ Magic interaction or is it: give advice to GMs to handle games that have both mages and TMs in it.  Play up possible connections and rip them down.  How does power bleed affect technocritters powers anyway?  Can a possession spirit access the matrix?  Give GMs advice on how to answer the odd questions that varies rules create and ways to bring divergent parts of the game into one story.  The resonance/magic divide is a great place to put the characters right in the middle and having some help figure that out could go a long way to giving mages and TMs a better roll in the game.  This would also help to distinguish the TM as not being just a decker/rigger substitute character but give them a flavor all their own. 
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Darrek Workman on (21:52:11/05-02-17)
Add suggestion

Having a section on spirits interaction with mundanes (TMs) would be interesting.  Some spirits should have a fascination with the matrix and TMs are notorious for being jealous of mages. Their natural allies. TMs have a reason to keep their essence so magic still affects them and they don't have access to most of the nasty things that mages can do to spirits.  A section on new spirit pacts and how non-magic characters might form such alliances give all characters a new why to advance their characters. Just having a spirit use hidden life on a character makes the character immune to normal weapons. Formula pact gives the character the ability to summon the spirit at any time (and makes it so the spirit isn't getting bound without the character knowing about it).  Life pact gives the character a different healing ability and the karma goes to the spirit so it's not getting wasted, it goes to making your good buddy stronger.  The magic pact might allow a mundane character the ability to cast the occasional spell. I would introduce a rule that lowered essence affects spirit pacts the same way it does other magic, it keeps this from getting abused and still gives other characters an even better reason to be jealous of TMs.

Spirits open up a whole different way to advance a character and can give a mundane character access to the arcane side of the house.  TM might give spirits access to the matrix.  There is a lot of room for interesting roleplaying and lots of room for stories to be told here.  The possibilities for GMs to create a story around a TM/spirit team up are vary interesting and could be a way to include all the character types.

The rules about TMs seem unfair to those who like the concept of the TM, but that's more about finding ways of including the concept in the adventure.  There's still lots of room to make it an interesting character type and a compelling part of shadowrun.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (23:30:41/05-02-17)
Cacheless
Target: Device
Duration: I
Fade Value: L
This Complex Form dumps all excess running programs and forces a device to function solely on its operating system. Make a Threading test vs. Willpower + Firewall. If you win target device unloads all running programs and cannot load any for net hit Combat Turns or until it reboots. When used against an AI they make an additional test with Willpower + Firewall + Depth against the same Threading test (you do not reroll). If they lose they are disrupted, otherwise they continue running. If they are disrupted they lose Essence points equal to your net hits.
//edited Level for balance

Whitespace
Target: Self
Duration: S
Fade Value: L
By altering your Living Persona, you can evade detection from wireless on Sensors. Make a Threading test and note your hits. Sensors within [Level] x 2 meters of you must make a Device Rating x 2 Opposed test against your hits. If you win you are invisible, soundless, heatless, etc to Sensors. Any recordings will not have you present, however your Resonance Signature will be. This also will affect cybereyes, cyberears, ultrasound, etc for as long as they are wireless on or you either stop sustaining this or move out of range.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (06:54:55/05-03-17)
Whitespace
Target: Self
Duration: S
Fade Value: L
By altering your Living Persona, you can evade detection from wireless on Sensors. Make a Threading test and note your hits. Sensors within [Level] x 2 meters of you must make a Device Rating x 2 Opposed test against your hits. If you win you are invisible, soundless, heatless, etc to Sensors. Any recordings will not have you present, however your Resonance Signature will be. This also will affect cybereyes, cyberears, ultrasound, etc for as long as they are wireless on or you either stop sustaining this or move out of range.

This.
Fuckin´ this!
Basically, the Laughing Man hack from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. You can also add versions where the Perception isn´t removed but altered and/or blurred instead, like a TM version of the Mask spell.

Plus: I really love that name! My take would have been something boring like "Digital Invisibility".

Edit: Removed the salt. Forbidden Arcana gave me some unexpected hope for the system.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Zweiblumen on (12:45:48/06-20-17)
So I've taken a bunch of the suggestions in here and things I found on Reddit as well, and tweaked a few things from 4th to try and flesh out stuff for TMs.  I've got a crappy .txt document with a lot of it and I'm working my way through creating HeroLab .user files for it.  It's still very much a work in progress, but if you're interested I've a github repo and I'm happy to take any pull requests. https://github.com/ttheune/sr_tools
If you aren't the geek-type that is familiar with making changes or just want to give some feedback not through the github system, feel free to PM me or post in here.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (04:25:11/06-22-17)
So... is the real book  forgotten?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Therlen on (06:47:37/06-22-17)
It's not forgotten. It'll just need more time.

https://twitter.com/amyveeres/status/874895749443727361 (https://twitter.com/amyveeres/status/874895749443727361)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (07:24:14/06-22-17)
I didn't see the post thanks for the update!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Novocrane on (22:14:30/06-22-17)
Still, we're past the 'two years later' mark.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Marcus on (22:52:23/06-22-17)
Still, we're past the 'two years later' mark.

Yeah I'm pretty much at a loss on this one. The part that kills me the most is we still don't even have a title after 2 years ;-;
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (07:35:09/06-26-17)
New Idea:

Inflame/Flamewar
Target: Persona/Multiple Personas
Duration: I
Fade Value: L/L+2
These Complex Forms use a mixture of highly effective social media clickbait algorithms, suppreme meme magic, the concentrated power of countless trolls and strategicly placed gramar errors to force anyone hidding within the matrix to imediately respond to any given topic. Inflame works on a single Matrix User, Flamewar against any Number of personas in [Level] Meters or inside a host. Strangely enough, these forms work on AR users and even conventional early 2000 desktop users just as they would work against VR- or Hot-VR users, almost as if they trigger some inner, primordial drive....

*Clears throat*
I summon thee from the depths of twitter, Amy of house Veeres!
Couse, you know: Millenials really are kinda lazy and whiny, and here´s 10 reasons why.
Also, here´s 10 reasons why Undertale is not the best game ever.
Anime sucks.
Maybe you all deserved Trump.
#Gamergate
Reeeeeeeeee!


Phew. Took quite some fading, but maybe it works  8)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (17:32:03/06-26-17)
First, that complex form has no mechanical function within its description.
Second, I understand where you're coming from.
Third, I don't see that what you're doing is productive.

Lastly, I like the idea of a CF "marking" someone for the trolls to pester incessantly.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (20:15:56/07-11-17)
Honeypot
Target: Host
Duration: I
Fade Value: L
You construct a near-like digital icon of you, except this clone is coded to be irresistible to IC. This copy of you does not need to "visually" appear as you as its likeness is purely digital. This Complex Form lasts for a number of minutes equal to your hits. Whenever an IC attempts to target you it must roll a Matrix Perception test with a threshold equal to the Complex Form's Level. If it fails it attempts to target the Honeypot instead of you with no recourse from the IC itself. If an IC deals damage to the Honeypot, the Complex Form will dissipate upon taking its Level in damage.

Hollowgrafix
Target:
Duration: S
Fade Value: L - 1
Through folding the 1's and 0's into each other, you create a digital image of your design. This can exist in either AR or VR. In AR cameras, microphones, sensors, or any image/sound link device will see, hear, or touch (or even smell and taste if you feel like it) what ever entity you bring "into existence". This deception can be recognized as fake with an Opposed Perception test against your Threading test, otherwise the image seen or sound hear is just as real as all other inputs occurring. In VR this illusion will have an associative icon and can be determined as fake with an Opposed Matrix Perception test. Failure to beat your hits means that the devices and personas treat the icon as real. General matrix interactions occur as normal, but offensive actions (such as placing a MARK) can prompt another Matrix Perception test to see through it.
The deception may be created with small, simple instructions such as pace back-and-forth or speak a short conversation. Controlling or re-instructing the Complex Form requires a Simple Action.
Examples include a giant T-rex rampaging through downtown (in AR) or a crowd of club-goers storming Dante's digital dance floor (VR).

Déjà-view
Target: Device
Duration: S
Fade Value: L
By capturing recent recordings, you loop a small clip of video footage, audio track, or sensor reading to continually play instead of the live inputs. Make an Opposed Threading test against the target's Intuition + Data Processing. Success allows you to replay a recent reading of up to your net hits in minutes for as long as your sustain it. While sustained a user may reroll a Intuition + Data Processing test if any suspicion is aroused. If the opposed device beats your hits it suffers no looping, although there are slight influences of the data. Small flickers of color, quite background static, or a constant oscillation of the current temperature will occur as long as sustained.

More still to come.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Mörkblå on (01:17:55/07-21-17)
Déjà-view
Target: Device
Duration: S
Fade Value: L
By capturing recent recordings, you loop a small clip of video footage, audio track, or sensor reading to continually play instead of the live inputs. Make an Opposed Threading test against the target's Intuition + Data Processing. Success allows you to replay a recent reading of up to your net hits in minutes for as long as your sustain it. While sustained a user may reroll a Intuition + Data Processing test if any suspicion is aroused. If the opposed device beats your hits it suffers no looping, although there are slight influences of the data. Small flickers of color, quite background static, or a constant oscillation of the current temperature will occur as long as sustained.

Question: would you know if the CF was resisted or not?
Would be helpful to know but might feel a bit OP and would open up for opportunities where a Techno just sits there messing around until he makes it, provided no one notices that is.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (22:33:42/07-21-17)
Currently the idea is that the TM does not know. Originally the intent was to make it known if the CF worked or not, but I wanted to play around with the idea that regardless of the result something happened. I'm not opposed to it working either way however.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (13:29:31/07-23-17)
may be with an other FC to see what is view on a device...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (21:16:50/07-25-17)
Resonance Flood
Target: Device
Duration: S
Fade Value: L - 3
Resonance Surge
Target: Host
Duration: S
Fade Value: L - 1
These Complex Forms generator excess processes and bog down any efficiency possible. For each net hit on an Opposed Threading test versus Intuition + Data Processing, the target(s) suffer a -1 Dice Pool modifier to all Matrix tests. Resonance Flood targets a single Device. Resonance Surge targets a Host and affects any operators such as Spiders and its IC. The users are unaffected, however there may be some latency problems from the Host. (More fluff than crunch)

Null Pointer
Target: Device
Duration: P
Fade Value: L - 1
By recoding specific matrix commands, you can force devices (and through that, personas) to be unable to make a certain Matrix Action. Make an Opposed Threading test versus Logic + Data Processing. If you win the device cannot make one Matrix Action of your choice. If the device (or persona) attempts to perform the chosen Matrix Action it will fail with no progress or determent such as gaining MARKs or increasing their OS. As a Complex Action, the device may roll Willpower + Data Processing with a negative Dice Pool modifier equal to the Level in order to overcome your subjection. Every hit it makes reduces your net hits. Once you have no net hits, the Complex Form ends.

Jolt
Target: Persona
Duration: I
Fade Value: L - 3
Jolt blasts Resonance at a Persona and bombards the user with malicious code. This Complex Form deals Biofeedback Damage to the target equal to your hits, resisted normally with Willpower + Firewall. If you target a Persona that is not in VR the Complex Form fails, but you still suffer Fading.

Obfu-skate
Target: Self
Duration: S
Fade Value: L - 2
When running silent isn't enough, you choose to ride the flow of Resonance to make your connections. Others attempting to find you through a Matrix Perception test suffer a dice pool penalty equal to your hits. This penalty applies to foes and allies alike. Much like running silent, once someone has a MARK on you, you appear clear as day.

PushR
Target: Persona
Duration: I
Fade : L - 1
By killing simsense protocols, this Complex Form "ejects" a Persona from VR. Make an Opposed Threading test against the target's Willpower + Firewall. If you win the Persona switches from VR to AR and becomes disoriented (pg. 409). If you get net hits greater than or equal to the target's Firewall, they suffer dumpshock. If your target happens to not be in VR, PushR has no effect, and you still suffer Fading.
When the target is link-locked they add the highest Attack rating of the opponent(s) link-locking them to the Opposed Threading test.

Resonance Tether
Target: Persona
Duration: P
Fade : L - 2
Through threading a constant flow of Resonance onto a Persona, this Complex Form link-locks the target if they fail an Opposed Threading test versus their Willpower + Firewall.

//
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (05:50:40/07-26-17)

Null Pointer
Target: Device
Duration: P
Fade Value: L - 1
By recoding specific matrix commands, you can force devices (and through that, personas) to be unable to make a certain Matrix Action. Make an Opposed Threading test versus Logic + Data Processing. If you win the device cannot make one Matrix Action of your choice. If the device (or persona) attempts to perform the chosen Matrix Action it will fail with no progress or determent such as gaining MARKs or increasing their OS. As a Complex Action, the device may roll Willpower + Data Processing with a negative Dice Pool modifier equal to the Level in order to overcome your subjection. Every hit it makes reduces your net hits. Once you have no net hits, the Complex Form ends.

Jolt
Target: Persona
Duration: I
Fade Value: L - 3
Jolt blasts Resonance at a Persona and bombards the user with malicious code. This Complex Form deals Biofeedback Damage to the target equal to your hits, resisted normally with Willpower + Firewall. If you target a Persona that is not in VR the Complex Form fails, but you still suffer Fading.

Obfu-skate
Target: Self
Duration: S
Fade Value: L - 2
When running silent isn't enough, you choose to ride the flow of Resonance to make your connections. Others attempting to find you through a Matrix Perception test suffer a dice pool penalty equal to your hits. This penalty applies to foes and allies alike. Much like running silent, once someone has a MARK on you, you appear clear as day.

PushR
Target: Persona
Duration: I
Fade : L - 1
By killing simsense protocols, this Complex Form "ejects" a Persona from VR. Make an Opposed Threading test against the target's Willpower + Firewall. If you win the Persona switches from VR to AR and becomes disoriented (pg. 409). If you get net hits greater than or equal to the target's Firewall, they suffer dumpshock. If your target happens to not be in VR, PushR has no effect, and you still suffer Fading.
When the target is link-locked they add the highest Attack rating of the opponent(s) link-locking them to the Opposed Threading test.

Resonance Tether
Target: Persona
Duration: P
Fade : L - 2
Through threading a constant flow of Resonance onto a Persona, this Complex Form link-locks the target if they fail an Opposed Threading test versus their Willpower + Firewall.

//

Luv all of them... big UP
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (18:37:16/07-28-17)
And here's some echoes!

Algorhythm:
    You gain a bonus equal to your submersion grade to actions when using devices in which you benefit from a wireless-on bonus. In addition to this, you benefit from smartlink as if you had paid essence for it.   :D

Infinite Persona:
Prerequisite: Mutable Persona
    You may reduce the Matrix Attribute’s of your Living Persona by a total of half your Resonance. You then gain the same number of points to increase different Matrix Attributes of your Living Persona.

RAID:
Through subverting networking protocols, you can create a PAN and slave a number of devices equal to twice your Resonance plus your submersion grade. This results in faint impressions of your Resonance Signature on those slaved.
//Resonance Array of Independent Devices

Wardiving:
IC suffer a dice pool penalty equal to your submersion grade while you’re in the same host. Any personas such as regular users or Security Spiders do not suffer this penalty.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (16:27:51/08-18-17)
Duplicate Program
Target: Self
Duration: I
Fade: L - 1
Choose a program to duplicate and make a Threading test. The Complex Form lasts for a number of minutes equal to your hits. Common programs require a minimum Level of 3, and Hacking programs require a minimum Level of 5. You can have a number of duplicated programs equal to your Resonance at a time.

//alternatively this could be an opposed test at 4 & 6 for common and hacking without the minimum Level. idk
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (10:26:24/09-04-17)
Any news here?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: HiddenBoss on (11:27:32/09-04-17)
Yes, They are not making the new Technomancer pdf book but taking what they was working on and putting it in a new matrix book, so the stuff that should of been in the matrix book "data trails" was taking out and now ending up in a new matrix book..... we just come full circle.

Well it should get it out of PDF hell but i not happy about this.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (11:28:43/09-04-17)
Like a Joke!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Mirikon on (16:25:22/09-04-17)
Expect it to get further delayed by the announcement of 6E, and they delay it to dual-stat it like the early 5e supplements.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Finstersang on (06:34:58/09-08-17)
TBH, the Matrix content in general is quite Sup-Par, with Technomancers just being the most obvious example. Data trails didn´t provide nearly as much content as 4th Editions "Unwired". Also, all those missing clarifications, lack of options for Gamemasters, the kinda-cool-but-somewhat-unfinished concept of Deep Dives...

Not the worst idea to make a new actual Matrix supplement and splice missing TM content in. I just hope it doesn´t take an eternity...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: belaran on (08:16:22/09-11-17)
During interview on the 6th World Podcast (http://sixthworldpodcast.libsyn.com/ep-024-cfd-w-scott-schletz), Scott Schletz mentioned a upcoming releases for Shadowrun 5 with no name but being "advanced book on Matrix stuff". He says in the interview that he would like to see more stuff on Resonance Realms, so I also hope this would include some love for the Technomancer. But next in line is Street Lethal (i guess soon to be released) and Dark Terrors - so I won't expect the advance matrix book to be there before 2018.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (08:18:31/09-11-17)
Something like 2019 for all over the world translate then...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: belaran on (08:20:26/09-11-17)
Well, if you are French (I am) I would simply expect this to never be translated. There is no french version of the Arcology Shutdown, Storm Front or War (maybe for the best) and so on...

Sad truth (and not saying to the publishers are not doing their best)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (08:21:07/09-11-17)
Yep i am...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: belaran on (08:30:12/09-11-17)
Then I am sorry to say that I would not expect this guide to be translated. There was a fundraiser for Lockdown and some other books, but for now one, I would expect anything release this year and the next will simply never be translated. I'm quite sorry :( - I'm not trying to bring your moral down, neither to bash on the french translator (I know they are doing the best they can), I just don't want to set false expectations.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (08:35:01/09-11-17)
yep i thnk so...
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: SrJohnson on (10:40:49/09-13-17)
Duplicate Program
Target: Self
Duration: I
Fade: L - 1
Choose a program to duplicate and make a Threading test. The Complex Form lasts for a number of minutes equal to your hits. Common programs require a minimum Level of 3, and Hacking programs require a minimum Level of 5. You can have a number of duplicated programs equal to your Resonance at a time.

//alternatively this could be an opposed test at 4 & 6 for common and hacking without the minimum Level. idk

I've been thinking in something similar

[Program] of Resonance
Target: Persona/Pilot Progam
Duration: I
Fade: L - 2

Emulate a common or hacking program (not agent). Make a Software + Resonance [Level] roll. This Complex Form lasts for a number of minutes equal to your hits.

You can use it on you or on another Persona/Pilot Program. You can take this complex form multiples times, each one for a different program. Multiples uses of effect from the same program doesn't stack. 

You can have a number of [Program] of Resonance Complex Forms working equal to your Resonance at a time.

The target can't use the effect of the emulated program if normally have a restriction for it (for example, a technomancer can't use the effect of "Configurator of Resonance" because they can't channge/switch Matrix atributes).

To the priority table for character creation add:
Priority A - Technomancer: 3 [Program] of Resonance Complex Forms
Priority B - Technomancer: 2 [Program] of Resonance Complex Forms
Priority C - Technomancer: 1 [Program] of Resonance Complex Forms

Edit: Something added from an idea given by 忍
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (10:45:45/09-13-17)
What if TMs just knew and benefitted from a number of programs equal to their Resonance?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (10:47:12/09-13-17)
both can be used i think
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: SrJohnson on (10:59:06/09-13-17)
Fix for AR + Wired Reflexes (or any physical initiative improvement)

There ir a lot of discusion about this, something like "AR is slower than VR, but  AR + Wired Reflexes ir better".

The fix:
When you are in a Host (or not interacting with the "real" world) in AR mode you can use only 1 Action Fase to make matrix actions in the Combat Turn.

With this, when you are in a Host, you can act with your high and improved initiative in AR, but only one time for Combat Turn. Using VR you can act normally more times. And using AR in the "real world" (doing things like hacking/attack devices) you will act normaly
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (11:16:26/09-13-17)
Then mesh reality will comeback with the best of both world!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: SrJohnson on (11:17:12/09-13-17)
What if TMs just knew and benefitted from a number of programs equal to their Resonance?

For balance. In the character creation probably he will start with Resonance of 4-6. Using Resonance = programs, with Resonance of 6 you could have activated 6 of those Complex Forms at the same time like the Fairlight Excalibur Cyberdeck (823,250¥, 18R).

Maybe Resonance programs at the same time and Resonance/2 (rounded up) of different programs can be a better option.

Later, with Resonance of 7 you can have 4 at the same time, and also take the Echo of [Program]Resonance having a permanent emutated program (which as Echo doesn't count for the number of programs of the Complex Forms)

Edit: It can be Resonance = programs, because there is a Fading roll and using a Cyberdeck doesn't have it.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: brasso on (17:53:25/09-18-17)
@Yue (OP), can this book get written already?

Take my nuyen!
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Mirikon on (00:40:35/09-19-17)
Yeah, that whole e-book thing? They decided to hell with that, and rolled it into the new matrix book coming out. Which means it will probably only be a chapter, if that, instead of the ground-up rewrite TMs need.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Beta-Max on (09:58:50/09-19-17)
@Mirikon What's your source?
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: dragrubis on (10:17:37/09-19-17)
i think it's not a source, just he think it'll be like that (and i fear it may be true)
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Mirikon on (12:03:39/09-19-17)
In a recent GenCon interview (http://gamer-goggles.com/blog/gen-con-50-coverage-42-jason-hardy-on-shadow-run-by-catalyst-game-labs-12904/) (around the 11:15 mark), Jason mentioned the Technomancer Ebook would be rolled into a physical Advanced Matrix book. This is planned for 2018.
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: on (12:57:57/09-19-17)
Also there's some talk about TMs by Dylan Stangel here (http://arcologypodcast.com/tag/dylan-stangel/).
Title: Re: Technomancer feedback for a new book!
Post by: Beta-Max on (14:31:39/09-19-17)
Thanks for the info, I'll admit, I discovered shadowrun ages ago due to genre but didnt play much UNTIL TM's in 4e. Then i was hooked. Its nice to see SOMETHING for them is on the way.