[firebug]

And now for some more questions:

1) Regarding the Matrix, AR, Hacking, networks etc from what i've read it seems to be the, if not one of the, most complex ideas for the game.  So i'm still trying to wrap my head around most of it.  But my question is, when purchasing commlinks, software must be purchased with it correct? and you are able to mix and match between any? 

2) In regards again to the Matrix, AR, VR etc. What would be some "easy" beginner tasks to help ease the group into the wireless world? hacking a lock? Disabling drones? Also in your experience, has Matrix combat been more complex than real world combat or vice versa?

Yeah, for a commlink, you buy the hardware (which determines the Signal and Response ratings) and the Operating System (which determines the System and the Firewall ratings).  Keep in mind that the System rating can never exceed the base Response (temporary reductions to Response won't affect System though).

Then you buy the Programs, which cannot exceed System in rating without going into program modifications (found in the Unwired sourcebook).  A character who isn't a matrix specialist may still want things like Encrypt, Analyze, Browse, and Command in order to encrypt conversations, keep watch for hacking attempts on their commlinks, do matrix searches, and remotely control vehicles, respectively.


An "easy" task for hacking is usually Spoofing.  Spoofing enemy guns in combat may not be the most effective use of time, but it's pretty straightforward.  Doing other things like opening matrix-connected locks, getting free food, and other low level "80's hacker" things are all Spoof.

AceFace made a very clear and simple introduction to how hacking works in this thread:  http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=8388.0

Another example of a good matrix activity that isn't mentioned in that guide is rigging and remotely controlling drones.  Give your hacker a small stealth drone (The "Cyberspace Designs Dragonfly" from Arsenal, page 117 is a good one.  It's cheap and effective but can't do much else beyond spy on stuff) for them to remotely control and set up a sort of "obstacle course" for it--  Avoiding a few guards, finding a way around closed doors and such.  Make sure this is happening while the player characters are using their meatbodies to do something else so they are introduced to using drones for live reconnaissance.

[Fruitsations]

thanks all again for the help and...

More Questions!

1) Regarding emsquared and the grunt record sheet he linked, what does the Alt Init/ IP stand for? I assume Alternative Initiative and Initiative Pass? And if so what are these? I can't seem to find it anywhere in the book.

2) Regarding gear, i've read that starting characters should not have gear above availability 12 and rating 6.  One of my players would like an imaging scope and visual enhancements on it.  I assume he should be able to put more than one enhancement on the scope as long as it does not got above availability 12 correct?  And legality.  I assume legality for gear since not mentioned at character creation is GM discretion correct?

Thanks again!

[Raiden]

1. not sure

2. you are right on the first part, about how many he can add, I am unsure, most things have a capacity rating. tell your player he can take contacts or glasses with those vision enhancements instead would be my response and keep it to one vision enhance/add on per scope with interchangeable scopes. items that are labeled R are restricted items IE you must possess an appropriate license to own and operate them. items that are xF are forbidden and are illegal completely, (note depending on the GM ideals these can change. They can even change from place to place.)

[Aaron]

1. Either Matrix or Astral Initiative/IP, whichever you actually need.

[Fruitsations]

More questions!

One of my players wants to make and adept more melee based and raised some concerns.
Mostly about melee combat and ranged combat mostly in the form of "what's the point of melee if i can just move back a few metres and blast somebody with a shotgun?"  So the main concern is mostly how useful is melee combat anyways? I mean if let's say a PC and NPC are engaged in melee, what's stopping the NPC or PC from moving lets say 5 metres back and firing the pistol at the person out in the open? Would the NPC or PC just be able to run or even walk out of the melee and just shoot?  I mean interception and all those modifiers would apply obviously but really what's the point in running in then?

TL;DR Pros/ Cons of melee and tips?

[emsquared]

RE: the Alt Init on the NPCS sheets, I also gave most gangers (and some corp sec and TRT members) a 1-in-3 or 1-in-6 chance depending on their role, to be on Init enhancing drugs, which I would denote in that space.

Melee is generally pretty niche. Though ultimately its as useful as the GM allows it to be. If you present Melee opportunities, maybe more high security areas or melee focused opposition, more often it is more useful. Just like in real life though, it's generally a bad idea to bring a knife to a gunfight in SR. If you do want to try it, I'd recommend you have to have a very high movement speed (running skill or 'ware) to close and a very high passive dodge (REA + 'ware).

[Crunch]

More questions!

One of my players wants to make and adept more melee based and raised some concerns.
Mostly about melee combat and ranged combat mostly in the form of "what's the point of melee if i can just move back a few metres and blast somebody with a shotgun?"  So the main concern is mostly how useful is melee combat anyways? I mean if let's say a PC and NPC are engaged in melee, what's stopping the NPC or PC from moving lets say 5 metres back and firing the pistol at the person out in the open? Would the NPC or PC just be able to run or even walk out of the melee and just shoot?  I mean interception and all those modifiers would apply obviously but really what's the point in running in then?

TL;DR Pros/ Cons of melee and tips?

In SR4 melee is at a disadvantage, but not an insurmountable one. The biggest issue is that melee is a complex action, whereas most firearms are Simple actions and can fire twice per one melee attack. Advantages to melee? It can be more subtle, and the top end damage is higher. If Arsenal is in play some of the martial arts perks are quite nice.

Basically a melee character can be really effective, but probably has to play smarter than a fire arms character to be as effective. Plus of course pretty much any melee character should go ahead and take a ranged option anyway. 

[Mad Hamish]

In SR4 melee is at a disadvantage, but not an insurmountable one. The biggest issue is that melee is a complex action, whereas most firearms are Simple actions and can fire twice per one melee attack. Advantages to melee? It can be more subtle, and the top end damage is higher. If Arsenal is in play some of the martial arts perks are quite nice.

I'd say the biggest problem for melee is that you need to be able to get to melee.
This isn't always overly easy...

[Nobody]

Often overlooked for melee PCs are the rules for interception (sr4a 161). These are basically your AoOs from d20. Why don't you just back away from the punch troll to hit him with your shotgun? Another punch, that's why.

[killfr3nzy]

Did anyone else think there was a rule allowing multiple melee attacks by splitting the dicepool? ie Two attacks at DP/2, three at DP/3, etc.

I know in Arsenal there are rules for dual-wielding melee weapons by splitting dicepool, and on the Melee Modifier Table (Core Pg 157) the 'Character Attacking Multiple Targets' option lets you attack anyone and everyone within a meter of each other by splitting your DP between them. I guess I figured that if you could attack, say six people once each, then you could attack one person six times using the same rules.
Maybe Houserule a limit of (AGI) attacks or something, depending on how prevalent you want it to be.

As for arguments in favour of melee;
1. There are a few paracritters/ghouls/spirits/cyberzombies that could waltz up and maul you if you're not at least somewhat proficient.
2. Many shadowrunner environments are close quarters (office buildings, labs, backalleys) which cuts down the time hostiles can target you, especially if you're the stealth/advance element of the team.
3. Most opponents have little-to-no melee capability in both skills and gear, at least comparatively.
4. Even if they do, they either have to change weaponary to fight back (ie, waste actions on dropping their pistol and hefting a club - Free and Simple Actions respectively), or try and shoot you with a -1 penalty (Point Blank +2, Attacker in melee -3).

I also thought there were rules concerning firing into melee that might discourage reprisal from your marks' allies, but I can't find them on a quick glance-through, so maybe that was just me.

[emsquared]

No one forgot any of that. What you forgot is they're not using anything but Core.

And none of that really changes that you generally (barring surprise/sneak attacks) are going to have to use at least 1 IP to close. During which time, you may be getting pumped full of lead. Bottom line is, if the player wants to make a melee guy it's up to the GM to give him opportunities to use it effectively, and up to the player to make sure he can use it effectively and that it's not his only option.

[firebug]

Often overlooked for melee PCs are the rules for interception (sr4a 161). These are basically your AoOs from d20. Why don't you just back away from the punch troll to hit him with your shotgun? Another punch, that's why.

This is a good point.

No one forgot any of that. What you forgot is they're not using anything but Core.

That really hurts melee.  Arsenal added a lot for melee; with any unarmed-DV increasing Martial Art and with the Finishing Move maneuver (bought for 2 BP at character creation as long as you have at least Rating 1 in any Martial Art) you can front-load your attacks to do two melee strikes in a single turn.  Shadowrun is such a game where two hits with the immediate threat of a third means you've taken that person out.  Especially considering the ease of improving your unarmed damage (Troll Adept with 8 Strength can easily get 12DV with his fists, also doable with Bone Density Augmentation and strength-boosting 'ware) and the fact that many people have less Impact armor than Ballistic armor.

Stealth and melee go together very well, too, if only to help you close the gap between you and your opponent before combat begins.  If you are infiltrating something, no matter how modded your gun is, people will hear a gunshot.  They will not hear a karate-chop to someone's neck.

Bottom line is, if the player wants to make a melee guy it's up to the GM to give him opportunities to use it effectively, and up to the player to make sure he can use it effectively and that it's not his only option.

In the end you are at a disadvantage.  It's tough to get out of the "D&D mindset" of having a hard melee hitter (my players instinctively did that too) but in my opinion while melee has its advantages and needs to exist, it doesn't make up for the massive advantage that guns have.  And this is entirely logical.

[Nobody]

I was under the impression that you could split your dice pool as normal for melee attacks, either to attack multiple targets or several attacks on a single target. Just like pistols, magic, etc. This wouldn't decrease your base DV, but would affect overall modified DV since you've got less dice with which to generate successes.

2) Regarding gear, i've read that starting characters should not have gear above availability 12 and rating 6.  One of my players would like an imaging scope and visual enhancements on it.  I assume he should be able to put more than one enhancement on the scope as long as it does not got above availability 12 correct?  And legality.  I assume legality for gear since not mentioned at character creation is GM discretion correct?

Gear legality is part of the availability code. R requires some amount of licensing, and F is completely illegal (i.e. immediate trouble if security gets a look at it). The GM has some discretion, especially in sections like drugs, but most of the time it's pretty universal (missile launchers aren't street legal *anywhere* . . . that there's law anyway . . .)

[Fruitsations]

I'm so overwhelmed at the responses and help, thank you all! But another question:

1) Magic.  Is there a determining factor on "spells known" cause to me it seems like  theres none right now.

Thanks again for all the input! It has made character creation and planning so much easier!

[Reaver]

I'm so overwhelmed at the responses and help, thank you all! But another question:

1) Magic.  Is there a determining factor on "spells known" cause to me it seems like  theres none right now.

Thanks again for all the input! It has made character creation and planning so much easier!

At character creation? He can start with a number of spells at (Spellcasting or Ritual Spellcasting skills)x2. MEaning that if he has Spellcasting at 5, he can have 10 spells (5x2=10). Keep in mind that he has to pay 3 BP per spell to know it!

After the game starts, he has to buy a formula and take the time to learn it... all this is covered in the magic section of the book (A good read!)