Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Baquette on <06-17-13/1856:57>

Title: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-17-13/1856:57>
What happens with the item/cyberware online bonuses if the runner team enters a wifi inhibitating building or leave the city zone (deserted area, desert, Z slum), with only their own devices in signal range (and no "Matrix" connection?

Can any of the authors (Bull, Patrick, Critias  etc ...) say anything about it? Everything gone for good? Was that discussed during development? Are there any workarounds, except the satellite dish between your "/(§"/" for your reaction enhancer? Or is it working as intended?

MfG
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: StarManta on <06-17-13/1906:55>
Well, first of all, a "wifi inhibited building" doesn't inhibit connections between different nodes that are all inside it; it generally only blocks connections to the outside world. So the connection from your gun to your commlink is unhindered.

Second, I haven't run the numbers, but at such a short range, I don't think a Jammer would have enough effect to block it.

Third, (at least in my interpretation), having "wireless on" doesn't automatically mean that our gear is actually wireless, only that it's accessible wirelessly in some way. For example, your gun is skinlinked to your commlink, it can still have "wireless on" because your commlink can be hacked wirelessly, and your gun is linked to your commlink. In practice, there's not actually much difference between a gun wirelessly slaved to a commlink and a gun skinlinked and slaved to a commlink; in either case, you have to hack the commlink and then you have access to the gun.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: KarmaInferno on <06-17-13/1911:59>
I think the OP's question is "do you get Wireless Bonuses in those situations?"

Which is relevant because if not suddenly your Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers stop stacking.



-k
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-17-13/1913:45>
So the connection from your gun to your commlink is unhindered.

Maybe, but as far as I understand the rules (from forum quotes) you need not to be connected to your commlink, your devices need to be connected to the matrix. Which you canīt in a desert or a inhibitating building. Which consequently mean that you loose all online bonuses for all your items and implants.

MfG
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: StarManta on <06-17-13/1935:31>
I think the OP's question is "do you get Wireless Bonuses in those situations?"

Which is relevant because if not suddenly your Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers stop stacking.


Well, I didn't spell it out, but what I was getting at is that if you walk into a Faraday Cage, your wireless-enabled gear won't be affected, because it's still perfectly connected to your commlink.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-17-13/1936:48>
But connected to your commlink does not give you any online bonuses (like reaction enhancer working with wired reflexes or vision enhancements having bonus dices)

MfG
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Bull on <06-17-13/1938:05>
. For example, your gun is skinlinked to your commlink

Just as a note...  There's no SKinlink is the SR5 Core Rulebook :)

Bull
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: bannockburn on <06-17-13/1938:31>
That's not :)
That's :(
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-17-13/1939:56>
Just as a note...  There's no SKinlink is the SR5 Core Rulebook :)

What about cable? Unknown the world as well?

MfG

Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: StarManta on <06-17-13/1941:31>
But connected to your commlink does not give you any online bonuses (like reaction enhancer working with wired reflexes or vision enhancements having bonus dices)

MfG

It doesn't matter whether your Reaction Enhancers can see the matrix. It matters only that they can see your personal WAN.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-17-13/1942:23>
Is that a quote from the rule book? Because the blog and the other freelances indicated that you need to be connected to the matrix, not only to your PAN.

MfG
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: StarManta on <06-17-13/1943:11>
Just as a note...  There's no SKinlink is the SR5 Core Rulebook :)

What about cable? Unknown the world as well?

MfG

In fact, the advent of technomancers has made hardwired networks make a comeback in the world. Every cyberdeck (and I think commlinks too?) includes some length of data cable, and longer cables are available cheaply.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: bannockburn on <06-17-13/1943:37>
Quote
Is that a quote from the rule book? Because the blog and the other freelances indicated that you need to be connected to the matrix, not only to your PAN.

Also, one other poster who apparently bought the book.
But that's all 2nd hand without quotable material for now.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-17-13/1946:01>
I'll have to read the rules to see what it exactly is like, and see it in play, but so far my concerns haven't been alleviated. I like limits, accuracy, marks, higher dodge pools, priority, direct vs indirect spells, drain changes, 1 attack per IP, the equalizing of offensive magic/melee/ranged, proper armor on low-body characters, faster hacking and all that. The wireless bonuses, especially given how hackers already get faster hacking and tough combats will easily take 5x~10x as long, are the one flaw I see so far in SR5. Skinlink being gone is rather cruel too, it kinda rubs things in even more.
StarManta says one thing, but KarmaInferno quotes the book to another tune and it's rather confusing.

Fortunately, even if my worst fears come true it will be doable to figure out decent houserules, by adding other ways for hackers to mess with people and simply eliminating some of these bonuses. And the rest of the edition sounds like I will really enjoy it. Though maybe grenades are a bit messy, but I'll have to read the full rules to see how those are exactly supposed to work.

Edit: Thought Skinlink was Unwired so removed that part for a sec, but it was core in SR4.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-17-13/1950:50>
Just as a note...  There's no SKinlink is the SR5 Core Rulebook :)

And what is the ingame- and offgame reasoning for that? To bring everyone online? Or to force cables on your character?

MfG
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-17-13/2039:27>
Just as a note...  There's no SKinlink is the SR5 Core Rulebook :)

And what is the ingame- and offgame reasoning for that? To bring everyone online? Or to force cables on your character?

MfG
Hacker players complaining that they actually had to buy combat skills to do combat instead of using their hacking skills for everything under the sun.

Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-17-13/2042:22>
In the wireless discussion a while ago I mentioned the kind of possible ways I'd wanted for hackers to mess with people in combat. If (and that is if) wireless turns out to be a nightmare, chances are I'll develop that system using the Marks system.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: KarmaInferno on <06-17-13/2058:35>
From the Origins Special edition of SR5, page 421:

WIRELESS BONUSES
Because nearly every piece of gear and 'ware is wireless capable, it means nearly every piece of gear and cyberware benefits dramatically from being "meshed" into your wireless personal area network and the Matrix as a whole.

When an item has additional functionality when connected to the Matrix, it's described under the "Wireless" entry in the item's description. This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix, is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise, like if you've entered a wireless static zone. If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item's Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses it's wireless functionality.

These benefits only apply when the item's wireless mode is on. Your Ares Alpha can't adjust for the wind direction and speed if it can't download the up-to-the-second weather conditions, and your Eurocar Westwind 3000 doesn't know the status of the next three traffic lights if it's not connected to GridGuide. A wireless device is always vulnerable to subversion and control by a hacker within wireless handshake range. You can defend your gear with a good commlink and a personal area network. Even better, defending against threats from the Matrix is part of your team hacker's job. If she's not available, you might occasionally want to turn wireless off.




-k
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Aaron on <06-17-13/2341:03>
Yes, there's direct linking of devices, but "direct connection" is different from "wireless enabled."
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <06-18-13/0403:05>
Quote
In fact, the advent of technomancers has made hardwired networks make a comeback in the world. Every cyberdeck (and I think commlinks too?) includes some length of data cable, and longer cables are available cheaply.
Aha, everyone's so worried about hackers, but what they don't realize is that the era of the whip user has finally arrived. So many cords and legs to entangle...
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <06-18-13/0617:00>
Can you mix technomancer and mage now?  Pretty please?
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-18-13/0618:51>
Please no. Leaving aside functionality, someone would take it then complain they suck at everything.

Anyway, we already know from the Priority tables it's not possible.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-18-13/0620:00>
Can you mix technomancer and mage now?  Pretty please?

...  How's about never?  I'd seriously hate to see the wall between Magic and Resonance come down.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-18-13/0637:39>
Check out preview #3 (char generation preview). I htink itīs quite clear that you cannot mix Magic and resonance.

MfG
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Wildcard on <06-18-13/1039:37>
. For example, your gun is skinlinked to your commlink

Just as a note...  There's no SKinlink is the SR5 Core Rulebook :)

Bull

<3
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-18-13/1723:08>
Yes, there's direct linking of devices, but "direct connection" is different from "wireless enabled."
Well, a direct connection to your commlink would enable the device to do what it needs with the Matrix but really being well protected,
as spoofing without going through commlink would not be possible.
So that would defeat the purpose of new hackers...

Also, how do you justify that your eyes, by going wireless, add Perception dices to the pool, when connected to Matrix and not when you have signal but are not linked to Matrix?
You could still detect other wireless nodes, I guess? Is it because of cameras not available? Then, if you have Matrix access but are not in a modern building with cameras every other inch, it doesn't work either?

What is the logic of Reaction Enhancers working together with wired reflexes when "on air" (On Matrix, actually, a lot more constraining.), and not possibly interacting through your nervous system or specific nanowires interfacing networks?
Is it because  sending your nervous system data on matrix to an external node, having it processed there and sent back to your another piece of gear it has the adress Ghost-knows-how, is so much faster than going through a direct link?

Please, do give us some insights, I only want to buy the idea of wireless bonuses (and for now, honestly, I am not sold)
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: White_Ghost on <06-18-13/1754:36>
Of everything in the book, the wireless bonuses are the one thing I'm most leery about.

I understand exactly why it was done, as it fits with the risk/reward theme of this release. But as many others have said, some of the wireless bonuses don't make perfect sense. Each device must be handled on a case by case basis, and each wireless bonus is different in a particular way.

For instance, Chameleon armor would still function as armor if it was bricked, but loose it's bonuses to the sneaking skill.

While alternatively, your pistol would be bricked entirely and unable to shoot. 

Over all, I believe that it has a place in the game, but I don't think it was nailed to the amount that the new matrix rules were.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-18-13/1831:37>
Some of the nonsense could be relied upon by some change in wording, like "connected to the PAN" instead of "to the Matrix", but for some other, It would not make sense to  be connected only to the PAN to earn this kind of bonuses, and for some more, that wouldn't in any way make sense to win bonuses from wireless. Even good fluff would have a lot to do to convince me wireless is faster that wires and optic fiber.
But I am willing to apply the idea when it works, actually. That's a great idea. The pity is to see a few things are enforcing the "new ways to do".
That is not a good way to win players to these changes I think..
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-18-13/1837:02>
From what I can tell, Boomstick, the idea generally has nothing to do with connection speed.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: White_Ghost on <06-18-13/1841:54>
If we are talking about at which point wireless bonuses are negated, the book rules it thusly:

Wireless bonuses are granted when it is connected to The Matrix and are lost under two conditions:

Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Crunch on <06-18-13/2105:19>
From what I can tell, Boomstick, the idea generally has nothing to do with connection speed.

Indeed, rather with the utility of having a device designed to constantly access the matrix connected to the matrix.

If it makes you feel any better think of it as Ares version of the XBone.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-18-13/2209:50>
From what I can tell, Boomstick, the idea generally has nothing to do with connection speed.
Well, yeah, but then I don't see why reaction enhancers can work together by wireless and not by any other connection mean.
And If I had something connected to my nervous system, even if not a hacker risking encounter with IC (yes, I know it changed, but I'll stick to this for now), I would not take the risk of it taking a virus. And no designer of a combat implant would, while it is not practical for the audience it is aimed at. Special ops? Army men? Indeed, they never want to do covert ops. SO I will design it the less efficient way for all uses, while it would be so simple to interface both things at brain level with nanowire or anything less open to mind rape and nose bleeding inducing nastiness, catatonia and paralysis (because what happen if wired reflexes are hacked? Don't just lose the bonuses I guess. If you can make happen actions for guns and so on, imagine what can be with neural implants...).

Indeed, rather with the utility of having a device designed to constantly access the matrix connected to the matrix.
If it makes you feel any better think of it as Ares version of the XBone.
Doesn't help so much:)
Actually, I would like the idea if it made sense. The example quoted of the Ares Alpha correcting trajectories from windspeed could justify need of Matrix access, but actually I am not sure there are precise windspeed meters any other locations where the runner is or where he is targeting at. But according to the rules it is no problem, if he has not enough noise to shut the device, and if he is connected to the Matrix.
And Satellites can give only tendancies. So it won't make sense a lot in some situations neither.

Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-18-13/2218:04>
Given how the dicepool modifiers were really scaled back, reducing the bonuses of items isn't a big deal. The bonuses then returning if and only if, however... Well, all I can say is that I can't wait until I can check the rules and see how they work out in Missions.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Aaron on <06-18-13/2318:54>
Well, a direct connection to your commlink would enable the device to do what it needs with the Matrix but really being well protected,
as spoofing without going through commlink would not be possible.
So that would defeat the purpose of new hackers...

I take it you haven't had a chance to read the book yet? It's something of a paradigm shift from previous editions, so it's hard to respond to your questions without rewriting the stuff in the book.

Quote
Also, how do you justify that your eyes, by going wireless, add Perception dices to the pool, when connected to Matrix and not when you have signal but are not linked to Matrix?

Most of how the New New Matrix works isn't in the book, and it may or may not be explained in a future book, but here's what I understand of it, for what it's worth. The Matrix was designed to be as safe to the user as walking in a AAA-security Downtown area. As such, devices on the Matrix utilize a lot of distributed computing, since it's "safe" to share, and data security can be easily done with proper encryption (thus the Firewall boosting program). When you have all of the devices within a click or so helping out, computing speeds increase exponentially.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-18-13/2320:37>
What you describe is a tactical network, not improved glasses.

MfG
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-18-13/2327:12>
That is not a tacnet.  A tacnet is feeds from multiple people put together opn a network with their own devices doing the computing.  Distributed computing is something ENTIRELY different.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-18-13/2357:34>
Receiving data from different, multiple, external sources to receive a perception bonus is the basic functions of tacnets in SR4.

So, yes, it would be nice if people could stop turn to a SR4 tacnet as an explanation for the SR5 online bonuses.

MfG
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-19-13/0001:18>
And a tacnet, when added, may continue to confer such a bonus - who knows.  But a tacnet is a lot more than just a perception bonus.
Title: Re:
Post by: Sichr on <06-19-13/0543:25>
Given the hate "always online" philosophy receives today, idn if microsoft pr have fingers in this (it is connected to licence, for conspiration sake :) ). Althought I am huge fan and I can even understand the advantages in most cases, some examples really give me creeps and will need really good explanation before I buy it.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-19-13/0559:48>
Given the hate "always online" philosophy receives today, idn if microsoft pr have fingers in this (it is connected to licence, for conspiration sake :) ). Althought I am huge fan and I can even understand the advantages in most cases, some examples really give me creeps and will need really good explanation before I buy it.

Let's consider, for a second, that such hate only comes from a fairly small quarter.
Title: Re:
Post by: Sichr on <06-19-13/0623:09>
Hehe. E3: PS4 vs. XB1 :) So yes. Only from gamers. Oh. Wait!
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-19-13/0626:51>
Compare to the mainstream response to the X-Box One.  Microsoft will almost certainly get the demographics that they're going after, I have no doubt about that.  That demographic is simply not the "core gamer".
Title: Re:
Post by: Sichr on <06-19-13/0650:34>
"Cassual shadowrunner" :)
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: bannockburn on <06-19-13/0712:09>
Let's consider, for a second, that such hate only comes from a fairly small quarter.

I'm curious where you get that assumption from.

I'm not saying that I have better numbers, but I can say at least that I have met no one yet who's totally on board with all those always online bonuses.
The general consensus in my environment is "would be nifty if it were a real choice, but the implementation feels shoehorned to the extreme".

That's my anecdotal evidence. Where's yours? Did you poll a significant number of people or is that just an opinion on a similar basis to mine?
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Ariketh on <06-19-13/1059:28>
Let's consider, for a second, that such hate only comes from a fairly small quarter.

I'm curious where you get that assumption from.

I'm not saying that I have better numbers, but I can say at least that I have met no one yet who's totally on board with all those always online bonuses.
The general consensus in my environment is "would be nifty if it were a real choice, but the implementation feels shoehorned to the extreme".

That's my anecdotal evidence. Where's yours? Did you poll a significant number of people or is that just an opinion on a similar basis to mine?

I'm going to say it was probably a representative answer based on the responses to it at Origins. I would be very surprised if Catalyst's reps at Origins didn't pay attention to the players' responses when they had players in front of them.

Incidentally, my anecdotal evidence has all been, "We'll see how it shakes out in play, but for now it looks fine."

-Ariketh
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <06-19-13/1107:00>
Let's consider, for a second, that such hate only comes from a fairly small quarter.

I'm curious where you get that assumption from.

I'm not saying that I have better numbers, but I can say at least that I have met no one yet who's totally on board with all those always online bonuses.
The general consensus in my environment is "would be nifty if it were a real choice, but the implementation feels shoehorned to the extreme".

That's my anecdotal evidence. Where's yours? Did you poll a significant number of people or is that just an opinion on a similar basis to mine?

I'm going to say it was probably a representative answer based on the responses to it at Origins. I would be very surprised if Catalyst's reps at Origins didn't pay attention to the players' responses when they had players in front of them.

Incidentally, my anecdotal evidence has all been, "We'll see how it shakes out in play, but for now it looks fine."

-Ariketh

Midwest con gamer is probably not a represenative sample. :)

But yeah we will see how it shakes out in play.  My guess is it pans out like this though.  Do you have a GM that will hack your shit, if answer is yes they are always off, if the answer is no outside plot points wireless is on.  I don't think in play people will be making the risk reward deciison it will be a more universal table decision based on the GMs atyle.  So we will see large swaths of people "loving it" because their GM just never uses the rule, and other large swaths "being haters" because their GM uses hackers. Large swath group 2 will probably end up houseruling it away. 
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: bannockburn on <06-19-13/1128:57>
To clarify: I'm not on the fence. Not too much, anyways ... Some bonuses may be stupid, while others could fit the setting and be cool. I also say: Wait and see.
But most people I know (and I know a lot of people playing SR over here) were, at the very least very skeptical if it could be pulled off in the mostly cool area.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Bull on <06-19-13/1320:30>

Midwest con gamer is probably not a represenative sample. :)

It is FAR more representative than these forums, to be honest.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: bannockburn on <06-19-13/1322:29>
I tend to agree in that, Bull.

But I dislike blanket statements like "Well, you're in the minority" coming from unconfirmed sources.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Wildcard on <06-19-13/1323:48>
Small sample size, regression to the mean, etc.

Put simply : Speak for yourself. Claiming anecdotal evidence to be more "pure" or "true" is silly.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Bull on <06-19-13/1337:20>
We take and consider input from all sources.  We get feedback from the forums, from conventions we do (Large and small, and considering we had several hundred players at Origins, t wasn't that small :)), and we get input from the Catalyst Demo Team agents who are out running events at their local game store.  Plus our own experiences at the table (or over skype, in my case, since I'm now in the middle of nowhere and in a gaming dead zone).

We just have to weigh the input versus it's source.  The Internet often acts as a bit of an echo-chamber, where a half dozen individuals make thousands of posts, so their voices are much louder, but they may or may not actually reflect the opinions of the fanbase.  Especially since often the loudest fans tend to reinforce each others opinions.

Anyway, off topic, back to discussing wilreless bonuses and such.

BUll
Title: Re:
Post by: tequila on <06-19-13/1402:28>
"Cassual shadowrunner" :)

LOL!  That's great.  Need to fit that into my new character somehow.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Medicineman on <06-19-13/1411:36>
. For example, your gun is skinlinked to your commlink

Just as a note...  There's no SKinlink is the SR5 Core Rulebook :)

Bull
One of my Chars bought some 100 Packages of Skinlink End of December 2074
Iths still fresh and unused
Want some, need some ?
or more seriously :
something that already existed INGAME will not disappear just because You (not You personally but CGL :) ) forgot to include it in the BBB

with an unforgotten Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Medicineman on <06-19-13/1419:18>
one more Question :
wasn't it Your (CGL's) big Argument that You wanted to lessen the Influence of Items to the Dicepool ?
It seems to me that Items(and weather they're Matrix connected or not) are now even more important than in SR4A

with an important Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Bull on <06-19-13/1431:58>
something that already existed INGAME will not disappear just because You (not You personally but CGL :) ) forgot to include it in the BBB

We didn't forget. It may return in an expansion book somewhere.  It may need retooled first though.

And, well...  Program carriers, spell locks, dikoting, boosted reflexes...  There's a number of things that have disappeared over the years when a new edition comes out.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Carz on <06-19-13/1432:33>
We take and consider input from all sources.

As with all creative endeavors, knowing who to listen to and who to ignore becomes an important part of the process.

Quote
We get feedback from the forums, from conventions we do (Large and small, and considering we had several hundred players at Origins, it wasn't that small :)

When I go to a convention, I know I do my best to be polite, and not complain, even if I don't like what's going on - so even if I have issues with the rules, the play or the players I tend not to bring it up, in favor of allowing everyone to have the best time possible.

It usually takes some direct query, or a time to chat with the rep/GM afterward before I voice any issues or concerns.

Just a thought that others may be like myself.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Wildcard on <06-19-13/1444:33>
something that already existed INGAME will not disappear just because You (not You personally but CGL :) ) forgot to include it in the BBB
We didn't forget. It may return in an expansion book somewhere.  It may need retooled first though.

Mwahaha. Overload the electrical field of the user and give them moderate shock damage with a successful hack.

I hope I bump into you at GenCon Bull.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Medicineman on <06-19-13/1449:38>
Quote
boosted reflexes...
Way of the Samurai ;)

And Dikote was used as Houserules in quite some Groups I know.
(mostly with AP-1 and the cost from SR3)

There is no real explanation why an Item that did exist in 2050,2060 or 2074 should disapeear suddenly in the Year 2075.
I bet there's still some  Pocket Secretaries that You can buy  in Shadowrun
As well as you can still buy Music tapes nowadays

HokaHey
Medicineman
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-19-13/1457:10>
Let's consider, for a second, that such hate only comes from a fairly small quarter.
Even if we are not that representative, We are not just the "average american player in his twenties, white, geek".
Seems there are people from all around the world here. And that about 4 in 5, not counting SR5 team who are not to much pleased by the implementation of these bonuses and a few other things. While they were pleased about the basic ideas, actually, just looking at the "sticking to the 4th" topic says a lot.

I don't just give a little push on these because I take pleasure to that. Actually, I am greatly pissed off. Because there are a lot of cool things, which will end in me buying the game cause I am a fan, indeed, even if I hate to admit it as fans have no insight usually about what they like or not, but if I was to play it, I know it would take a lot of flak from my players who are much less nice than myself.
And I hate that a game is being remembered because of the stupid point in the rule that doesn't make sense instead of his great background.

We take and consider input from all sources.  We get feedback from the forums
Allow me to doubt that. When a lot of good point have been made about some things you were, as a development team, really proud of as that was the part of the game you created yourself, well, we got a "take over it, now it is done and you can't change it". That's a lot of consideration for feedback. No grudge held there. But I felt I had to remind some points there, cause I don't have too short memory when I read thing like that pissing me off to such extent (I was not even concerned, actually, I believe, but I felt it was astonishing, in the wrong sense).

Quote
We just have to weigh the input versus it's source.  The Internet often acts as a bit of an echo-chamber, where a half dozen individuals make thousands of posts, so their voices are much louder, but they may or may not actually reflect the opinions of the fanbase.  Especially since often the loudest fans tend to reinforce each others opinions.
So by following such a reasoning, you can easily select what pleases you instead of taking the opinion for what it's worth.
And by "what it's worth", I mean, rule wise, design wise, mechanic wise, not the number of people who back the idea. Even if it is one guy alone, if the point he makes show that the logic standing between RAI and RAW is completely flawed, you should take it into account, when materially possible.

As with all creative endeavors, knowing who to listen to and who to ignore becomes an important part of the process.
Read above.
As for preview 4, I reported what I am quasi sure of being a mistake. Not even an answer, I guess it will take an errata well after.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: bannockburn on <06-19-13/1459:26>
Thanks for the correction
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-19-13/1517:21>
Sorry, forgot that.
@Bannockburn; sorry too for the misquote.

I take it you haven't had a chance to read the book yet? It's something of a paradigm shift from previous editions, so it's hard to respond to your questions without rewriting the stuff in the book.
Should I take that for being right about pointing some of these things? If you really had to rewrite things, that would mean it would not stand up...

Quote
Most of how the New New Matrix works isn't in the book, and it may or may not be explained in a future book,
Explaining too much is a way to shoot yourself indeed, but with so much change I guess a solid explanation at least for basic matrix theory would be as welcome it was about the basic magic theory for aura and spells and so on.

Quote
but here's what I understand of it, for what it's worth. The Matrix was designed to be as safe to the user as walking in a AAA-security Downtown area. As such, devices on the Matrix utilize a lot of distributed computing, since it's "safe" to share, and data security can be easily done with proper encryption (thus the Firewall boosting program). When you have all of the devices within a click or so helping out, computing speeds increase exponentially.
I actually love the idea of distributed computing. Not sure thought that in a cyberpunk world, the large host would not be able to intercept the packets they are distributed to (or just in range to receive. Wires have this advantage that you decide mostly to whom you send these, and relays are usually safe. Wireless is not. So they might intercept it, and try and use them to gain info, so that would probably be something serious people would avoid to configure as an option. Let's face it, a businessman don't need so much processing power that he needs to make is agenda hackable and is life not even worth pennies by pulling security breaches large like the Tranquillity Sea into his corp.
The first sin of security is "bring your own device", and the second is "make it wireless". Even crypted, since people are able to hack device, they would be able to decrypt packets. Hosts would do it in a matter of seconds. And I don't believe the corps would see that with a bad eye, given that data is info, power and blackmail (even more power)..

Also, distributed computing is not of any help in some cases: wired reflexes were just more conductive than nervous fibers, hence messages went faster. plus a bunch of adrenaline stimulators. And Reaction enhancers were replacements in the spine, If I am correct. So how distributed computing help there, in the improvement of the conductivity of these implants?

I actually think the idea is great. And the time of price and reward and risk is also. But by giving more opportunity to players to find their own risks and rewards instead of sometimes pushing it into their throat (I don't know if it was deliberate or just how it feels -no disrespect intended but I am not alone there, some people used words like convoluted explanations or shoehorned ...) so they can't really appreciate it and discuss it to what it is worth, you would have made a better decision, IMHO.
And it is a pity cause the rest of new ideas can usually be great in game.

We didn't forget. It may return in an expansion book somewhere.  It may need retooled first though.
Well, that would have been one of the first thing to do, but indeed it would break a lot of the new things you would like people to get used to.
So it is less a need of retooling (SR5 was not written in a day) and more a practical way to give people no chance to shift from the paradigm "wireless risk/reward", even when it is done in a wrong way (yes, I said it, indeed, I only take it for my opinion only and not for absolute truth. But seems like I am not alone and there is a lot of logic reasons in why I don't like so much most implementations we have been shown -while, I admit that could be the only wrong examples in the system, with good things everywhere else. I would just wish it. That would be the best case)
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-19-13/1543:48>
Let's consider, for a second, that such hate only comes from a fairly small quarter.

I'm curious where you get that assumption from.

I'm not saying that I have better numbers, but I can say at least that I have met no one yet who's totally on board with all those always online bonuses.
The general consensus in my environment is "would be nifty if it were a real choice, but the implementation feels shoehorned to the extreme".

That's my anecdotal evidence. Where's yours? Did you poll a significant number of people or is that just an opinion on a similar basis to mine?

You know, I thought it was clear that I was referring to the whole thing with the XB1, there, but I suppose not.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: bannockburn on <06-19-13/1548:10>
Ah, I'm sorry. Misunderstanding, then.

Personally I didn't follow that discussion, but my impression was that this was a huge PR disaster for Microsoft? Isn't that a fairly big quarter?
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: PeterSmith on <06-19-13/1555:55>
That's a lot of consideration for feedback.

Just because a change is not enacted does not mean the feedback was ignored. It just means that the matter at hand was not changed.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-19-13/1607:08>
Ah, I'm sorry. Misunderstanding, then.

Personally I didn't follow that discussion, but my impression was that this was a huge PR disaster for Microsoft? Isn't that a fairly big quarter?

It's a quarter that believes itself to be more important to the games industry than it is.  "News" sites that cater to that group make a big deal of it, but in the mainstream the reaction is highly positive.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Aaron on <06-19-13/1620:45>
Sorry, Boomstick. When I said "rewrite" I meant "copy" and not "alter."
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: bannockburn on <06-19-13/1623:44>
Whelp, I'm not gonna buy the spybox. Wouldn't have either way, but that doesn't help its case ;)

But back to topic, this is way out there. :)
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: BlackJaw on <06-19-13/1632:00>
Quote
but here's what I understand of it, for what it's worth. The Matrix was designed to be as safe to the user as walking in a AAA-security Downtown area. As such, devices on the Matrix utilize a lot of distributed computing, since it's "safe" to share, and data security can be easily done with proper encryption (thus the Firewall boosting program). When you have all of the devices within a click or so helping out, computing speeds increase exponentially.

Although I don't have a copy of the rules to look at, from what I've been reading in message board posts the whole "distributed computing" concept was the feeling I was getting for Wireless bonuses.  It sounds a lot like the corps have off-loaded some functions of gear into the cloud, because "The Matrix is Safe Now (TM)" and it would also have all sorts of DRM and Metadata advantages for them.

Quote
I actually love the idea of distributed computing. Not sure thought that in a cyberpunk world, the large host would not be able to intercept the packets they are distributed to (or just in range to receive. Wires have this advantage that you decide mostly to whom you send these, and relays are usually safe. Wireless is not. So they might intercept it, and try and use them to gain info, so that would probably be something serious people would avoid to configure as an option. Let's face it, a businessman don't need so much processing power that he needs to make is agenda hackable and is life not even worth pennies by pulling security breaches large like the Tranquillity Sea into his corp.

The first sin of security is "bring your own device", and the second is "make it wireless". Even crypted, since people are able to hack device, they would be able to decrypt packets. Hosts would do it in a matter of seconds.
Well the "Matrix is Safe Now (TM)" so there wasn't a lot of concern that thing would get hacked.  Apparently that's wrong, because Deckers can hack gear in a matter of seconds now, but doing so also attracts the Matrix OverWatch goons to come dumpshock him, so by some definitions, it's still somewhat safe.   Also, in real life, people leave security holes in all sorts of stuff they'd be smart not to.  Many real world internet companies use a webmail setup for their internal e-mail, even on wifi enabled laptops, and hell, there are real life examples of pace makers being hackable.  Reality is stranger than fiction.

Quote
Also, distributed computing is not of any help in some cases: wired reflexes were just more conductive than nervous fibers, hence messages went faster. plus a bunch of adrenaline stimulators. And Reaction enhancers were replacements in the spine, If I am correct. So how distributed computing help there, in the improvement of the conductivity of these implants?
I figure, and I have no text to back this concept up,  the reason that Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers work better together when on wireless isn't that wireless is some how faster, or that street docs don't bother to plug the two system into each other, but that there is a cloud computer app somewhere they hook into that does a bunch of pattern recognition on the user's movements and detected threats and optimizes the performance of both systems so they aren't getting in each others way, possbily providing AR guides indicating optimal dodge directions or threat vectors.   "Now with Ares QuickDraw Network (TM)"

I can make up similar concepts for most of the wireless bonuses I've seen so far. (Again, I don't have a book)  So those goggles that give a perception bonus when on wifi are using Evo's O.W.L.Sight Image Recognition Network, etc.  It might be a bit silly, but it fits the rules about needing to be connected to the Matrix to get bonuses.   I still don't know why you need a special internet app to have faster chemical seal activation, so the distributed computing explanation isn't perfect, but it's less silly than the "internet is magic"  strawman argument. 

I'm not necessarily sold on the concept being a good fit for Shadowrun, but it's apparently here whether we like it or not.

I just hope this concept isn't taken to the conclusion that registered software in 4th ed was, and make it possible for Corps to track or locate you after a run by looking at the gear use logs unless you jump through 9 kinds of hell to anonymize your gear's wireless bonuses.  I really didn't like having to constantly patch all my software (cracked, open source, or even self-coded) every month or two in order to avoid rating decay.  It was a lot of trouble to keep accounting of for a software orientated character in order to avoid tracking bonuses for using legitimate "registered" software being used in a hack.

Honestly what I find interesting about this "distributed computing" concept of Wireless bonuses  is that it limits Street Sams (among others) in Wifi negated areas, which reminds me of Adepts loosing abilities in Background counts.  I think there is a quote from the book (SR5, page 421) earlier in this thread that says: "When an item has additional functionality when connected to the Matrix, it's described under the "Wireless" entry in the item's description. This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix, is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise, like if you've entered a wireless static zone. If there is a Noise Rating from a situation that is greater than the item's Device Rating, not including distance, the item temporarily loses it's wireless functionality."  If you loose your wifi connection some of your abilities don't work as well as normal (assuming you have the wifi on in the first place.)
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Critias on <06-19-13/1701:45>
Allow me to doubt that.
I understand that there's a language barrier that makes some of your posts, perhaps, more aggressive and hostile than you intend for them to be.  I also know you clearly hold some pretty strong opinions, as we've discovered in the past, and possess an impressive sense of certainty regardless of the topic being discussed, at times.  So maybe there's just some sort of misunderstanding going on, here, and in a minute we'll all laugh about it and your post will make perfect sense when read some other way.

But can you do me a favor here, and try to help me figure out any way to read this that isn't you just straight-up calling Bull a liar? 

Thanks.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-19-13/1834:10>
Sorry, Boomstick. When I said "rewrite" I meant "copy" and not "alter."
MY bad, so much for me;)

I understand that there's a language barrier that makes some of your posts, perhaps, more aggressive and hostile than you intend for them to be
I just mean to be frank.  No, not that Frank, put down this firethrower and this grenade belt;)
Sometimes, it makes me mean at the same time, and I am sorry of that, but if I go through saying such things I think that it is worth it.

Quote
I also know you clearly hold some pretty strong opinions, as we've discovered in the past, and possess an impressive sense of certainty regardless of the topic being discussed, at times.
"regardless of the topic being discussed"? Maybe you have been too startled by my first posts then, cause actually there were a lot of things I could discuss normally. I am culprit of becoming a little ironic when people try to justify thing not logic for me. I am also fine with admitting I am wrong. I even like it, as so I found a way to extend my reasoning.

Quote
So maybe there's just some sort of misunderstanding going on, here, and in a minute we'll all laugh about it and your post will make perfect sense when read some other way.

But can you do me a favor here, and try to help me figure out any way to read this that isn't you just straight-up calling Bull a liar? 
Well, I guess you won't laugh so hard because I said this with intents, quoted before. And my intents won't please you. But I did not mean that Bull is a liar. I think he was perfectly good faith and that actually, this is usually intended around in development team. Just that the thing I quoted was a fact, which showed that reality differed from that good faith intent. That I was pointing out. Not for calling him a liar but for reminding him some sentence I felt that was not to much appropriate for someone stating that.
As I pointed out, I like Irony. Also I admit that is easy to take a sentence out of context but it was well meaning what I quoted. The rest of my reasons saying that were in my previous post:

Allow me to doubt that. When a lot of good point have been made about some things you were, as a development team, really proud of as that was the part of the game you created yourself, well, we got a "take over it, now it is done and you can't change it". That's a lot of consideration for feedback. No grudge held there. But I felt I had to remind some points there, cause I don't have too short memory when I read thing like that pissing me off to such extent (I was not even concerned, actually, I believe, but I felt it was astonishing, in the wrong sense).

I thought that as if I am right, Bull has good faith about that, then pointing out something like that would show him that sometimes he has a little strayed from that position, so in a thread partly about that, this is not so evident.


Quote
Thanks.

You're welcome.
Also, I would not have minded Bull asking.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-19-13/2019:18>
Ah, I'm sorry. Misunderstanding, then.

Personally I didn't follow that discussion, but my impression was that this was a huge PR disaster for Microsoft? Isn't that a fairly big quarter?

It's a quarter that believes itself to be more important to the games industry than it is.  "News" sites that cater to that group make a big deal of it, but in the mainstream the reaction is highly positive.

Positive from those who don't realize just how much privacy that they could lose from such a device. A microphone and camera on your video game console that are "always on" presents a HUGE security risk. There's absolutely nothing stopping MS from stealthing an activation routine into a patch that would allow anyone with the proper passcodes (which they would then provide to organizations like the NSA) from viewing and listening to anything going on in your living room.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-19-13/2044:48>
I never made a comment on the privacy issues and other problems at play, Guns.  I'm simply noting that despite those issues, and the reactions of the "core gamer", the console will still do quite well - and I bring that much up only because it is relevant to the discussion at hand, as some people seem to be thinking that it wouldn't be feasible to produce and market these always online devices.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <06-19-13/2100:52>
http://www.joystiq.com/2013/06/19/xbox-one-80-microsoft-reverses-xbox-one-drm-features/

Now, back to Shadowrun, I think...  we're just going to have to wait for the book to come out.  For all of these threads, the same answer applies.  It's nice and all for those super-few that have it to share tidbits, but they haven't shown it all.  That means we(the rest) have no real basis for our opinions.  We're guessing.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Bull on <06-19-13/2137:51>
I can reply for myself, but was actually out working all afternoon and evening.

But hey, since you don't trust anything I say, that's cool.  I can stop wasting time trying to answer questions, explain reasons for stuff, and spend that couple hours a day I've been wasting here on paying writing and work.  Excellent.  Have fun.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Daedalus on <06-19-13/2204:37>
Bull, I for one appreciate everything your doing. Your work, both with missions, and with keeping us abreast of 5e info is valuable to me and I and my friends thank you for your time and effort.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <06-19-13/2206:34>
Can we make a trade?  Instead of Bull not posting further, it'd be great if Boomstick stopped and Bull stayed.  Don't let one rude and unpleasant person ruin it for everyone, Bull.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: PeterSmith on <06-19-13/2212:17>
Bull, I for one appreciate everything your doing. Your work, both with missions, and with keeping us abreast of 5e info is valuable to me and I and my friends thank you for your time and effort.

Brown-nosing and sucking up to everybody's favorite Orc will get you...well, it'll actually get you pretty far.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Ariketh on <06-20-13/0715:46>
I'll second the vote for keeping the freelancers around. I'm pretty sure they play as much of the rest of us. Having their insights on the dev process and the behind the scenes stuff is cool. Even if I don't agree, it's information I didn't have before. Really, other people's perspectives are good. Even if they are wrong. ;)

-Ariketh
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: bannockburn on <06-20-13/0717:29>
I sincerely hope for their sake that they play more often than me. ;)
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Warmachinez on <06-20-13/0719:18>
Can we make a trade?  Instead of Bull not posting further, it'd be great if Boomstick stopped and Bull stayed.  Don't let one rude and unpleasant person ruin it for everyone, Bull.

Agreed!

The bolded part is my doing.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Wildcard on <06-20-13/0944:55>
Easy there hivemind.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Wildcard on <06-20-13/1222:47>
Given the hate "always online" philosophy receives today, idn if microsoft pr have fingers in this (it is connected to licence, for conspiration sake :) ). Althought I am huge fan and I can even understand the advantages in most cases, some examples really give me creeps and will need really good explanation before I buy it.

Let's consider, for a second, that such hate only comes from a fairly small quarter.

 Amazon, one of the largest online marketplaces around is currently running an online poll to see which console gamers like better. With more than a week to go before the poll results end, the PS4 has a startling lead with 94.5% of votes being in favor of the PS4 and only 5.5% being in favor of the Xbox One (at the time of this article's publishing). It's not even like you can blame the SDF or fanboys at this point...everyone, even casuals see the failure that is SOPA in a box. (http://www.cinemablend.com/games/94-Gamers-Favor-PS4-Xbox-One-According-Amazon-Poll-56705.html)

Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: White_Ghost on <06-20-13/1228:35>
With the Rapid backpedaling on Microsoft's part, I'm curious at how this will turn out.

Some people have said that it's a marketing strategy, IE: "You talked, we listened! Now we're going to change, and you helped!" but I find that to be a bold face lie. The way that those in charge have treated customers have me thinking that they fully believed that the Xbone would sell as announced. And even if they return everything to last gen standards, their reputation has already be demolished.

Trying to look at this objectively, Sony hasn't done anything spectacular beyond not treating their customers like bags of money this E3, so I'll be making my purchases based on titles, not consoles.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Ghoulfodder on <06-20-13/1230:25>

So maybe there's just some sort of misunderstanding going on, here, and in a minute we'll all laugh about it and your post will make perfect sense when read some other way.

But can you do me a favor here, and try to help me figure out any way to read this that isn't you just straight-up calling Bull a liar? 
Well, I guess you won't laugh so hard because I said this with intents, quoted before. And my intents won't please you. But I did not mean that Bull is a liar. I think he was perfectly good faith and that actually, this is usually intended around in development team. Just that the thing I quoted was a fact, which showed that reality differed from that good faith intent. That I was pointing out. Not for calling him a liar but for reminding him some sentence I felt that was not to much appropriate for someone stating that.
As I pointed out, I like Irony. Also I admit that is easy to take a sentence out of context but it was well meaning what I quoted. The rest of my reasons saying that were in my previous post:
Here's a tip.

When someone involved in the development of a game tells you something that contradicts your view of how the development team works, they're right and you're wrong. That's where you apologise and / or drop it. Not say you still think you're right. Because basically, you haven't got a clue.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Wildcard on <06-20-13/1233:43>
Yeah. GoG's got a sale going on right now. Finally getting around to picking up titles I wished I could play when I was little. Like the Might and Magic series always looked awesome in the old gaming mags. I  played HoMM 2, and just the previews for MM6 were all amazing.

It's wierd how the whole graphical reductionist games like Minecraft have made me realize I don't really give a shit about graphics.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-20-13/1437:27>
I intented to drop on that because I said what I wanted and anyway, it serves nothing apart feeling I did the right thing. Which I can easily leave for more productive activities, as being right in an internet argument is still dumb.

Here's a tip.

When someone involved in the development of a game tells you something that contradicts your view of how the development team works, they're right and you're wrong. That's where you apologise and / or drop it. Not say you still think you're right. Because basically, you haven't got a clue.

So if you had read my post, you would have seen that they are not so right, since the fact is that one of them (maybe not Bull but one dev team guy, just had the doubt this morning about that) blatantly told to those of us who were complaining about something "get over it, it's done [...]".
So much for taking feedback into account. And while I had no part in the above mentionned argument, as a fan, and as a client, I felt as much insulted by that that people can feel insulted when I point them their mistakes or the things that don't work (at least as intended) in the rules they wrote. I said nothing before but reading this from Bull made me react.
I won't say anything else about the team's workings, but we have at least proof that for one statement, they are wrong about their own politics.

Apart of that, I won't talk no more about that, since that displease so much people apart of them. I see blasphemies take new forms our days...

So now, back to the game

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It sounds a lot like the corps have off-loaded some functions of gear into the cloud, because "The Matrix is Safe Now (TM)" and it would also have all sorts of DRM and Metadata advantages for them.
Indeed. While that makes a little sense for common implants, that view doesn't when it comes to combat enhancement implants.

Quote
Well the "Matrix is Safe Now (TM)" so there wasn't a lot of concern that thing would get hacked.
The Matrix was safe when it crashed, two times. And the Matrix was safe when they discovered TM. And they don't even know about the Sybil virus.
But hey, SR people must be a true bunch of ignorants who never happen to learn (I know that could be said about us, but we seem to have learn a bit if not enough, from past wars and other disasters we encountered before).

Quote
Apparently that's wrong, because Deckers can hack gear in a matter of seconds now,
Finally it is less safe than before;)

Quote
Also, in real life, people leave security holes in all sorts of stuff they'd be smart not to.  Many real world internet companies use a webmail setup for their internal e-mail, even on wifi enabled laptops, and hell, there are real life examples of pace makers being hackable.  Reality is stranger than fiction.
Well, I am aware of that. But mostly it is because people is not aware, smart enough in that field, don't care about their privacy or firmly believe the danger to be real (so it is not a problem if a potential movie hacker could enter in their phone and listen whatever they are doing just because there is an exploit in the chip firmware). And strangely, once they are aware, understand or are proven by FACTS that the danger is real and not so infrequent, well, they react, they scare, and they scream to the corps.
Look at XBOx1, look at Exynos exploits (Samsung), look at PSN, and so on.
So people are not so dumb.

Quote
I figure, and I have no text to back this concept up,  the reason that Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers work better together when on wireless isn't that wireless is some how faster, or that street docs don't bother to plug the two system into each other, but that there is a cloud computer app somewhere they hook into that does a bunch of pattern recognition on the user's movements and detected threats and optimizes the performance of both systems so they aren't getting in each others way, possbily providing AR guides indicating optimal dodge directions or threat vectors.   "Now with Ares QuickDraw Network (TM)"
Well, as wired reflexes are, based on fluff, neural boosters and adrenal stims, and supraconductive neural replacements, I guess that having computerizing power for that kind of calculation would be better in Movebywire implants or a third party implant with motor control capacity, because enhancers and wires can't get in the way of one another (and Matrix can't interpret what is a threat for you or what to dodge based upon your sole motor information, but I buy the pattern recognition part). But I recognize that is an idea, cause while they are basically "neural impulse augmenters" and "improved neural signal transporters", a module could basically be used to replace input from the brain by input from the module itself.

Which makes me wonder what will happen if you hack enhancers? Will you have a doll whose movements you'll be able to control.

Quote
I can make up similar concepts for most of the wireless bonuses I've seen so far. (Again, I don't have a book)  So those goggles that give a perception bonus when on wifi are using Evo's O.W.L.Sight Image Recognition Network, etc.  It might be a bit silly, but it fits the rules about needing to be connected to the Matrix to get bonuses.   I still don't know why you need a special internet app to have faster chemical seal activation, so the distributed computing explanation isn't perfect, but it's less silly than the "internet is magic"  strawman argument. 
Well at least, that's some thinking. Thank you.

Quote
I just hope this concept isn't taken to the conclusion that registered software in 4th ed was, and make it possible for Corps to track or locate you after a run by looking at the gear use logs unless you jump through 9 kinds of hell to anonymize your gear's wireless bonuses
Well, still, there would be some logic to that. Or, if you use some "spoofed chips" (can you with NEW MATRIX?), you still leave tracks, even if they can tell that is you right away but have to get you at first.

Quote
.  I really didn't like having to constantly patch all my software (cracked, open source, or even self-coded) every month or two in order to avoid rating decay.  It was a lot of trouble to keep accounting of for a software orientated character in order to avoid tracking bonuses for using legitimate "registered" software being used in a hack.
I guess that since there has been a will to streamline things, SOTA, if it is still here, will be a lot more simple (like "pay XX more in your lifestyle based on types of gear you have to keep updated)

Quote
Honestly what I find interesting about this "distributed computing" concept of Wireless bonuses  is that it limits Street Sams (among others) in Wifi negated areas, which reminds me of Adepts loosing abilities in Background counts
Well, I hate a lot that their is too much parallels between magic and matrix. not regarding rules, but regarding the concepts (spirit/sprites, background count/noise or whatever, etc). But that is just a matter of taste.

Still, thanks for your interesting arguments.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <06-20-13/2006:08>
With the Rapid backpedaling on Microsoft's part, I'm curious at how this will turn out.

Some people have said that it's a marketing strategy, IE: "You talked, we listened! Now we're going to change, and you helped!" but I find that to be a bold face lie. The way that those in charge have treated customers have me thinking that they fully believed that the Xbone would sell as announced. And even if they return everything to last gen standards, their reputation has already be demolished.

Trying to look at this objectively, Sony hasn't done anything spectacular beyond not treating their customers like bags of money this E3, so I'll be making my purchases based on titles, not consoles.

I don't think Microsoft was like, hey how can we bone the customer.  They wanted a cut of used games, and well every game company and console company has been trying to figure out a way to do that for years.  The invasion of provacy stuff was an attempt to make it a universal always on item, you'd be like hey xbox turn on the TV channel 54. No finding the remote, not fiddling with details just kinnect crap.  Honestly if this thing came out 5 years from now I bet no one would raise a stink because by then privacy will be non-existent.  Basically they were going for innovation, not bone the customer.  That being said this generation I get the playstion and well the nintendo since i already have that, but I'm probably opting out of the xbox unless I think they wont update the stuff they took out back into the sytem a few years down the line.  This will be the first generation since the nintendo existed that I wont get all the consoles.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <06-20-13/2139:34>
There's actually a thread for discussing the Xbox One.

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=11031.0
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Railgun on <06-21-13/1614:40>
After having read through the book, I'll admit that a significant amount of the wireless bonuses would actually make sense, even for security/combat gear. Well, maybe not for the wired reflex/reaction enhancer combination (seriously, SR5 devs, this was a bad idea that made the whole concept a lot harder to sell).
What doesn't make sense in general is the requirement for matrix connection. It could make sense for the sort of gear a random employee would use, but not people who encounter professional opposition that seeks to kill them (Shadowrunner, cops, corp security, soldiers). The vast majority of the wireless bonuses should work on a matrix-disconnected PAN, which will be more often that not set to a signal rating of 0.
The concept isn't bad, but its implementation needs a lot of work.

I'm going to house rule that only PAN access is required for the wireless bonuses to work (unless it really doesn't make sense), and that a datajack/DNI/wired connection can give the same advantages. And I'll just remove the wireless requirements for some items such as the wired reflexes.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-21-13/1621:26>
After having read through the book, I'll admit that a significant amount of the wireless bonuses would actually make sense, even for security/combat gear. Well, maybe not for the wired reflex/reaction enhancer combination (seriously, SR5 devs, this was a bad idea that made the whole concept a lot harder to sell).
What doesn't make sense in general is the requirement for matrix connection. It could make sense for the sort of gear a random employee would use, but not people who encounter professional opposition that seeks to kill them (Shadowrunner, cops, corp security, soldiers). The vast majority of the wireless bonuses should work on a matrix-disconnected PAN, which will be more often that not set to a signal rating of 0.
The concept isn't bad, but its implementation needs a lot of work.

I'm going to house rule that only PAN access is required for the wireless bonuses to work (unless it really doesn't make sense), and that a datajack/DNI/wired connection can give the same advantages. And I'll just remove the wireless requirements for some items such as the wired reflexes.

What, does the distributed computing model just not work as an explanation for most of them?  Because seriously, your PAN CANNOT replace the power of distributed processing.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Railgun on <06-21-13/1626:18>
Because you don't need a mainframe to run pacman. For most of the stuff 'wireless' is used for, a Raspberry Pi would do the trick, so I'm safely assuming that the immensely more powerful commlinks of SR5's era are way enough for almost anything that could justify the wireless bonuses. They have been for 20 years in the canon.
So I don't see why a corp security guard or shadowrunner would make him/herself vulnerable on purpose through using distributed computing when a bit of commlink CPU time is more than enough.

I mean, seriously, taser darts sending you information about the target's condition doesn't require distributed computing to display (the sensor's on the dart side, all the wireless does is sending you that information).
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-21-13/1652:47>
Whatever the computers of 2075 can do, the distributed computing of 2075 could do better.  Now, some examples just aren't going to fit with that model, but it sort of seems like you cherry-oicked that to suit your point.  Vision Enhancement, for example, would be able to make use of higher-complexity algorithms if it can access distributed computing - after all, it has to work in live-time, which is a serious factor in what can actually be achieved computationally.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Railgun on <06-21-13/1721:44>
I strongly disagree with the first statement. Distributed computing introduces latency that running on a local commlink wouldn't (because distributed computing requires communication with the server, dispatching of computing jobs, etc.).

That said, even if I agreed with it, distributed computing for the sort of tasks that give "wireless bonuses" really seems like using a sidewinder missile to kill a mosquito - or as I said, using a mainframe to run pacman. Sure, you can run pacman much faster on a mainframe, but it doesn't provide you with any real usable advantage because an iPhone 1 (or a 1995 pentium I) can already process the game at a much higher speed than what you could possibly use or need.

Distributed computing would be really good for computation intensive (by SR5 standards) tasks that would take seconds or more for a commlink to process, not the ones that would take 100ths of a second, and I haven't seen anything that doesn't fit that description in the wireless bonuses, not for computers that have been able to process full-VR simsense games for decades. At this level, I don't see why Red Sams or Shadowrunner would make themselves extremely vulnerable for insignificant gains.

That said, requiring PAN connectivity is plenty enough vulnerability with the proper electronics/signal amplifiers or wireless relay microdrones. It's just that with such a system, hacking someone's smartlink will require taking risks or being clever.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Aaron on <06-21-13/1739:27>
I strongly disagree with the first statement. Distributed computing introduces latency that running on a local commlink wouldn't (because distributed computing requires communication with the server, dispatching of computing jobs, etc.).

Distributed computing doesn't need a dedicated server if the networking protocols include the ability for every device to be its own central server for each task. That reduces the algorithm from quadratic to linear. </nerdtalk>
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Wildcard on <06-21-13/1742:28>
I understand equations both the simple and quadratical.

Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Lysanderz on <06-21-13/1744:06>
Computer theory is complicated.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Railgun on <06-21-13/1744:21>
I strongly disagree with the first statement. Distributed computing introduces latency that running on a local commlink wouldn't (because distributed computing requires communication with the server, dispatching of computing jobs, etc.).

Distributed computing doesn't need a dedicated server if the networking protocols include the ability for every device to be its own central server for each task. That reduces the algorithm from quadratic to linear. </nerdtalk>
Fair enough. I have some experience with distributed computing but it's very limited. That said, am I wrong in thinking that distributed computing does introduce some "time cost" that aren't always justified for small-scale tasks that are already fast to compute locally?
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: PeterSmith on <06-21-13/1802:10>
That said, am I wrong in thinking that distributed computing does introduce some "time cost" that aren't always justified for small-scale tasks that are already fast to compute locally?

No, that's a reasonable line of thinking. That said, if there are devices in SR5 that do require access to the Matrix to run additional functionality it means there is something about that functionality that cannot be processed on the device itself, or cannot be done so in a reasonable period of time.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Railgun on <06-21-13/1813:12>
That said, am I wrong in thinking that distributed computing does introduce some "time cost" that aren't always justified for small-scale tasks that are already fast to compute locally?

No, that's a reasonable line of thinking. That said, if there are devices in SR5 that do require access to the Matrix to run additional functionality it means there is something about that functionality that cannot be processed on the device itself, or cannot be done so in a reasonable period of time.
But that's just it: in view of everything I've seen in the fluff since SR2 (in terms of what computers can do and what cyberware could do in 2055), I don't see any of the "wireless bonuses" that look like they reasonably fit that description; I don't think it's unreasonable of me to just houserule that wireless bonuses don't need matrix connection at this point.

The DRM/factory  standard explanation is also perfectly valid, mind you, just not for the people involved in a typical run :p.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-21-13/1825:01>
I think perhaps you should be more specific than just "things you've seen in fluff" - it would take a pretty serious and specific fluff statement to dismiss the idea that an algorithm set that runs on your entire visual field and analyzes full detail could take some compute time.  In particular, it could be that the local version uses a form of top-down processing like the human brain does (perhaps even some form of IDA*), while the distributed version uses some sort of bottom-up processing that allows it to work with much finer detail and tag stuff that the loval version might dismiss.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-21-13/1946:04>
Talking about processing power (I love this thread, lots of ideas boiling up), the decks are said to use some limited form of parallel processing to gain enough power to bypass the security measures. Then I think it would be reasonable to say that the hardware took a general powerup with the new new matrix for the sake of handling these protocol, right?

Which means that even commlink have to have increased in power themselves. Not to the same extent as they don't perform the same tasks than decks and use legitimate keys and so on, but if they are keys and so on (because keys are an old concept, security protocols evolved in nobody knows what) that need the power of multiple links to be broken, I guess that mean their use would no be so transparent when it comes to strong protocols (like the equivalent of AES 256 or RSA 2048 and things like that for our current computers).

If you think about it, there could be "levels" of bonuses when they come to be possibly related to distributed computing.
Interfacing your stuff with your commlink (by any mean, which is more convenient for you) would give the least, at best a +1 bonus on a test limit, and some special goodies like ignoring a normal glitch involving the use of the implant for the most powerful of links, interfacing with a deck would give a +2 to test limit, plus ability to ignore a normal glitch and maybe a few things not measured in dices and ratings, and being connected with a mainframe or the matrix would go so far as give a +1 to +3 dice pool bonus in addition of the rest, for example.
Granted it would make sense. But for such applications I think I would require special additional programs like "pilots" to run on your link to interface the thing properly with matrix. No matter how efficient are the protocols, the facts that implants are very specific and these tasks somewhat not made to be handled in an internal fashion would mean to me that you need something specific to handle that.

To balance it, I would take noise into account when connection woud be needed. And maybe the fact that distributed computing or not, at times calculations take a so specialized form that they can't be divided in smaller parts than a given threshold. I thinking for example of some special matrices types that should only be handled by using multiple dynamic operations at the same time. I don't know if that actually exist but I know there are some programmation objects in some languages that can only be managed  in specific conditions, in dynamic or static ways (and I am not talking about the object type, but about its internal processing). Doesn't seem odd to me to imagine that it would exist for some tasks (like encryption), and then you would not be able to take advantage of being in an electronic shop because those puny comlinks or below would not be able to handle these smallest parts from the start.

That might be something I would houserule given time.
Still agree with Railgun on the fact that sometimes, too much power is not needed.


Distributed computing doesn't need a dedicated server if the networking protocols include the ability for every device to be its own central server for each task. That reduces the algorithm from quadratic to linear. </nerdtalk>
Well, I don't really know that kind of things and it's a pity, but from what I understand you are talking about the algorithm giving the task execution time depending on the time of protocol? It is very counterintuitive, or maybe I did not understand the concept of "every device being its own central server for each task.", because for me, if there are multiple things deciding on their own what part they will take of the calculation for example, it will just end with redundancy and as such, with lost cycles. Also, could be data collision, since even if the calculation on part 1 is done, some other host could recalculate it again after. But that would not be. I guess my assumptions are plain stupid there because that could not be something some computer head would come with the idea of, but then I missed something on this concept.
I should take some more degrees in math and computer sciences. Learning by yourself hits limits at times.

@RHat: By IDA, do you mean that: http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=959791 ? Interesting. Thank you very much, wasn't aware of that.

Edit; Another idea came up which would fit with giving a role to deckers into fight; while my ideas allow the use of wires for some applications, deckers could still try to hack the deck (as usual), or instead, locally work the matrix in a way it would refuse distributed computing operations from some "IP" or "mac adress" (see, the SR5 equivalent of it). Or completely wreck the local grid in a limited way indeed, but perturbating the cooperation among the nodes. Indeed, something GOD would be very pissed off at. But sometimes it's better to be bold than to be dead.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Railgun on <06-21-13/2239:53>
So, I was looking at the rule, and it looks like all the wireless communication goes through the matrix. There aren't any ways to handle direct device-to-device communication outside of the matrix (which makes slaves un-hackable without going through the master, and means that drones necessarily have a matrix presence).

Are there going to be rules covering these in the future? Because right now, a rigger can't use his drones in the desert, at least not wirelessly, which is a bit (lot) silly.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-21-13/2255:41>
The only way that wasn't true of slaves in SR4, Railgun, was through a direct wired connection - it is completely impossible in SR4 to hack a slaved node via wireless without first going through the master.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Aaron on <06-22-13/0037:01>
The "can't touch slaves except through the master" approach comes with its own problems and complications. There was a kitschy name for it (hack-a-stack maybe?) in SR4.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <06-22-13/0817:27>
I think his concern was about drones being impossible to use in places without Matrix access. 
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-22-13/1050:49>
Which is relevant.

I think that slaves being unhackable is also completely contrary to the possibility of spoofing signals. If you can spoof the link Id, why not being able to do so for communicating with slaves. Just make the thing harder as it has to be first decrypted (likely) and then spoofed and so on.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: phydaux42 on <06-22-13/1106:53>
I'm not even going to bother trying to explain how it works to my new group of Shadowruners. I'm just going to tell them "Shadowrun is a 3D universe - Physical, Magical, Matrix.  All PCs have to exist in all three worlds, to some extent.  If you want the extra bonuses then you have to make yourself vulnerable.  If you don't want to be vulnerable then you don't get extra bonuses."
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <06-22-13/1111:18>
Which is relevant.

I think that slaves being unhackable is also completely contrary to the possibility of spoofing signals. If you can spoof the link Id, why not being able to do so for communicating with slaves. Just make the thing harder as it has to be first decrypted (likely) and then spoofed and so on.

The only hacking is probably from the matrix, and its only connection to the matrix is through the deck. Not totally logical but hey very little of this we are focring wireless to crap on street sams who actually are the archetype that needed the most help not the biggest hurt makes sense. 
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Sichr on <06-22-13/1656:49>
Are there going to be rules covering these in the future? Because right now, a rigger can't use his drones in the desert, at least not wirelessly, which is a bit (lot) silly.

Is this real or is it misinterpretation?
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Dinendae on <06-22-13/1703:13>
Are there going to be rules covering these in the future? Because right now, a rigger can't use his drones in the desert, at least not wirelessly, which is a bit (lot) silly.

Is this real or is it misinterpretation?

I would imagine a satellite uplink would alleviate that problem. At least I hope it would.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-22-13/1706:21>
I seem to remember something about how dead zones weren't supposed to exist in SR5's Matrix - something involving sat coverage.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-22-13/2214:02>
This very smart message http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=11302.msg210297#msg210297
and the followings, made me wonder about one thing:

can you configure your devices so they don't share their processing power, in order to be 100% available for you all the time?
I know that would somehow defeat the purpose. But it would not necessarily be easy to do. I guess that deckers would rather not have their decks share their power because they have a lot when it is inactive,and when it is, well, it is for handling big tasks.
Other problem would be your device helping to nail you (even if it won't make a difference in game terms, I think a few characters would consider that "annoying")
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Aaron on <06-23-13/0112:14>
Your devices are 100% available to you at all times. I'm not sure why they wouldn't be. If you're worried about the whole distributed computing thing taking functionality, the distributed bit would only take idle cycles, the stuff you're not using anyway.

I'm also not sure why a rigger wouldn't be able to use his drones in a desert. Static zones are slower due to there being fewer devices to pass data and therefore less bandwidth, but nothing completely cuts off Matrix access. Except maybe Faraday cages.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Dinendae on <06-23-13/0136:00>
Additionally Desert Wars Merc units would need to develop new strategies, if drones no longer worked in such environments.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Sichr on <06-23-13/0317:13>
yup. thats why I asked for confirmation. Such step would be quite incompatible with universe IMO...
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-23-13/0742:57>
Thanks

Your devices are 100% available to you at all times. I'm not sure why they wouldn't be. If you're worried about the whole distributed computing thing taking functionality, the distributed bit would only take idle cycles, the stuff you're not using anyway.
Make sense. But had to be sure.

Quote
I'm also not sure why a rigger wouldn't be able to use his drones in a desert. Static zones are slower due to there being fewer devices to pass data and therefore less bandwidth, but nothing completely cuts off Matrix access. Except maybe Faraday cages.
There is still the problem of area like research facility and so on, where corps or gov could cut access from the Matrix on the surrounding zone by cutting the relays (or making them unusable unless you have this nice authentication program and this chip embarked -allegedly could be spoofed-).
Or when you go underground (you could be underground, using your drone as a scout, but if you must go through matrix, you will need a long long roll of optic fiber;))
If you really depend on Matrix for this, it makes thing strange, even more if you need a special control console to pilot drones (in previous ed, it was the emitter, drones were receiver, period). I think that making riggers needing to go through Matrix make more complication for everyone. And as it was related to the fact that it is impossible to hack slaves without hacking the PAN, then it destroy an interesting possibility for the hacker, which is against all the things you set up for making them more useful.
I understand the need to have some defense against them, but it could simply a high difficulty for spoofing slaves due to the hardness of the protocols.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <06-23-13/1112:00>
Corp facilities in Boomsticks world. :)  I am not sure I disagree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WlCdiU9IzA
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-23-13/1153:06>
 ;D
Not saying that you will get this in the mall  of the SCIRE (sorry, bad example)
of the local corp, with a total handle on communications.
But I guess that when it comes to sensitive area like the everett air force field (don't remember exactly the name), or Area 51 or MCT 0 zones, and so on, they would be picky on who communicate with the outside.
And if you try the old "lets go through the sewer, since there will be no wifi inside, apart of what you could bring with you, it's gonna be funny playing with wires (because, at least for once, wires are not the best solution;))
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Nath on <06-23-13/1731:42>
the everett air force field (don't remember exactly the name)
There is no air force base in Everett. There is the Everett Naval Station, home port to the USS Colin Powell air carrier, while the McChord Air Force Base is in Fort Lewis district, south of Seattle.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-23-13/1738:45>
Voilā! ;) Thank you a lot, Sir:)
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: KarmaInferno on <06-24-13/1105:53>
Reading through the book, I think I will be identifying all the gear that only interacts with the user and not anyone or anything outside that user, and removing the Matrix connection requirements.

Some of the Matrix bonuses make sense. Some are utterly boneheaded stupid.

My Tripod should not be deploying faster just because I gave it Facebook access.




-k
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-24-13/1337:13>
Reading through the book, I think I will be identifying all the gear that only interacts with the user and not anyone or anything outside that user, and removing the Matrix connection requirements.

Some of the Matrix bonuses make sense. Some are utterly boneheaded stupid.

My Tripod should not be deploying faster just because I gave it Facebook access.




-k

Nor should any pair of implants you have suddenly (and magically) stop working properly because you turned their Facebook access off.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Aaron on <06-24-13/1437:09>
I posted this over on Dumpshock in response to a similar comment. It seemed relevant  to this discussion.

Quote
Where in the book does it say that a cyberlimb or a smartgun can't be used except wirelessly? I think there's some confusion here about the difference between a wireless bonus and normal operation. A smartgun with wireless off still increases the Accuracy of the weapon it's on, and since cyberlimbs don't have a bonus, there's no real reason to have the wireless on when in a tactical situation, and they work fine without it.

[ ... ]

Additionally, I think there's also some confusion between time and attention. Take the chemical seal (or the bipod, or the smuggling compartment, etc.). Have you ever used a bread machine? They're awesome. You just put all the ingredients in and the machine handles the kneading, rising, whatever that second kneading step is called, and the baking. Then bam, you have bread. In the meantime, you've been reading, playing video games, or posting on Dumpshock. Your bread needed less attention than it would have had you not had the machine, even though it baked in approximately the same amount of time.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Carz on <06-24-13/1508:07>
Your bread needed less attention than it would have had you not had the machine, even though it baked in approximately the same amount of time.

Which would make sense for anything whose operation *changes* each time it goes through its process.

So for sealing an EV suit, there is no change to the process - it doesn't need to 'think' about how or if it should seal, only that it got the order TO seal up, and all the seals need to activate.

Some Matrix (wireless) bonuses seem to make sense under the 'more processing helps' theory. Other bonuses fail that test and thus doesn’t make sense given that as an explanation.


---


Matrix/wireless bonuses, and the 'on all the time' effect it has breaks the game for me. I just can't see breaking into a facility with these 'aggregate processing bonuses' and NOT having the corp first think jam you, while leaving their guys alone. Maybe that can't be done in 5th, but it could in 4th - but in 4th you didn't lose a bunch of functionality when it happened, just communication...
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <06-24-13/1515:49>
Quote
I just can't see breaking into a facility with these 'aggregate processing bonuses' and NOT having the corp first think jam you, while leaving their guys alone. Maybe that can't be done in 5th, but it could in 4th - but in 4th you didn't lose a bunch of functionality when it happened, just commusnication...
Maybe they do try that. But also maybe your decker defends you from that. Maybe it's a jamming war like riggers get into sometimes. And Faraday cages are just another security obstacle runners need to think more about going forward.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Daedalus on <06-24-13/1554:04>
Reading through the book, I think I will be identifying all the gear that only interacts with the user and not anyone or anything outside that user, and removing the Matrix connection requirements.

Some of the Matrix bonuses make sense. Some are utterly boneheaded stupid.

My Tripod should not be deploying faster just because I gave it Facebook access.


-k

It would if you have to login first. Think of it as having the log in preselected.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Aaron on <06-24-13/1752:51>
Which would make sense for anything whose operation *changes* each time it goes through its process.

So for sealing an EV suit, there is no change to the process - it doesn't need to 'think' about how or if it should seal, only that it got the order TO seal up, and all the seals need to activate.

I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

But that doesn't really matter. It's just a game, and each table can approach it in any way they find fun.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Crunch on <06-24-13/1843:49>
Isn't the sealing thing just the difference between a change mode free action and an activate simple device Simple Action?
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Carz on <06-24-13/1851:47>
I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

And again, if that were what we were talking about, then the explanation might hold up. But we aren't talking about putting the suit ON in the first place, but rather turning on the seal and air supply. Something that somehow takes 'a bit longer' when not connected to the Matrix. If it were a complex operation, the base time without Matrix help would take longer than it does.

Would it help clarify things if I changed by example to the tripod deployment?
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Crunch on <06-24-13/1900:44>
I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

And again, if that were what we were talking about, then the explanation might hold up. But we aren't talking about putting the suit ON in the first place, but rather turning on the seal and air supply. Something that somehow takes 'a bit longer' when not connected to the Matrix. If it were a complex operation, the base time without Matrix help would take longer than it does.

Would it help clarify things if I changed by example to the tripod deployment?

Manufacturers in the SR verse have stopped putting hard wire ports on their stuff. Therefore to use the DNI bonus of free action (thinking about turning it on) versus pressing the button (simple action) you need to have the wireless enabled. Do you have to play it that way at your table? No. But it's no more unrealistic than XBONE or EA. 
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Critias on <06-24-13/1958:32>
I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

And again, if that were what we were talking about, then the explanation might hold up. But we aren't talking about putting the suit ON in the first place, but rather turning on the seal and air supply. Something that somehow takes 'a bit longer' when not connected to the Matrix. If it were a complex operation, the base time without Matrix help would take longer than it does.

Would it help clarify things if I changed by example to the tripod deployment?
You're talking about a mental command telling your gear to ___________ itself, versus doing __________ to it with your own two hands.  For about twenty years now we've had similar speed/convenience boosts in regards to a smartlink allowing you to, for instance, eject a mag and reload faster.  Did you have the same problems with that?  I mean, gravity and a proper mag-release lever would still eject a magazine quickly, were you questioning why that took 'a bit longer' than just doing so with a mental command to the smartlink?

Now, that's able to be done over your PAN, wirelessly, with all sorts of other gear (and giving all sorts of other small bonuses).

Or, alternately, you can give up those bonuses in exchange for hack-proof levels of security, by keeping all your wireless turned off. 
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-24-13/2012:13>
I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

No he's talking about that you already have the suit on, but for some magical reason flipping the switch to seal it suddenly becomes a Complex Action because the suit isn't logged in to the interwebz.

Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-24-13/2038:01>
I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

No he's talking about that you already have the suit on, but for some magical reason flipping the switch to seal it suddenly becomes a Complex Action because the suit isn't logged in to the interwebz.



Whereas, if the wireless is on, you don't hit the manual control at all. 
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-24-13/2044:59>
I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

No he's talking about that you already have the suit on, but for some magical reason flipping the switch to seal it suddenly becomes a Complex Action because the suit isn't logged in to the interwebz.



Whereas, if the wireless is on, you don't hit the manual control at all.


It would take about the same effort to activate that seal once the suit is already worn. It's patently ridiculous to make flipping a switch suddenly more effort just because some butt-hurt Hacker wants to do everything under the sun with just the few skills he uses for his hacking. Make those hackers actually have to buy more skills to do more things like everyone else has to do.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Crunch on <06-24-13/2052:52>
I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

No he's talking about that you already have the suit on, but for some magical reason flipping the switch to seal it suddenly becomes a Complex Action because the suit isn't logged in to the interwebz.



Whereas, if the wireless is on, you don't hit the manual control at all.


It would take about the same effort to activate that seal once the suit is already worn. It's patently ridiculous to make flipping a switch suddenly more effort just because some butt-hurt Hacker wants to do everything under the sun with just the few skills he uses for his hacking. Make those hackers actually have to buy more skills to do more things like everyone else has to do.

I understand that you don't like the wireless bonuses All4BigGuns, but I think you're overstating the case.

A) With DNI attachment (available only through wireless in this years model) mentally send command to seal and receive real time update of seal status. Free action.

B) Without DNI, hit some number of switches to activate seal. Manually check seals for integrity and take corrective action if needed. Complex Action.

That doesn't seem either game breaking or outside of the realm of believability to me.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: DWC on <06-24-13/2121:22>
I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

No he's talking about that you already have the suit on, but for some magical reason flipping the switch to seal it suddenly becomes a Complex Action because the suit isn't logged in to the interwebz.



Whereas, if the wireless is on, you don't hit the manual control at all.


It would take about the same effort to activate that seal once the suit is already worn. It's patently ridiculous to make flipping a switch suddenly more effort just because some butt-hurt Hacker wants to do everything under the sun with just the few skills he uses for his hacking. Make those hackers actually have to buy more skills to do more things like everyone else has to do.

I understand that you don't like the wireless bonuses All4BigGuns, but I think you're overstating the case.

A) With DNI attachment (available only through wireless in this years model) mentally send command to seal and receive real time update of seal status. Free action.

B) Without DNI, hit some number of switches to activate seal. Manually check seals for integrity and take corrective action if needed. Complex Action.

That doesn't seem either game breaking or outside of the realm of believability to me.

Except that command can only be sent to the suit by transmitting it out into the matrix and then back to the suit.  You can't send the command from your commlink straight into the suit without being just as slow as physically pushing the button.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Critias on <06-24-13/2347:44>
It would take about the same effort to activate that seal once the suit is already worn. It's patently ridiculous to make flipping a switch suddenly more effort just because some butt-hurt Hacker wants to do everything under the sun with just the few skills he uses for his hacking. Make those hackers actually have to buy more skills to do more things like everyone else has to do.
Gamer on the internet crass and upset about people having fun wrong: NEWS AT ELEVEN.

C'mon, dude.  Doesn't it exhaust you being this indignant and negative all the time?  Because it exhausts me, just reading it.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-24-13/2357:12>
I take it you've put on or assisted someone in putting on an environmental suit? Now imagine doing that with a not-necessarily-cooperating, probably moving subject. I wouldn't describe that as a process that doesn't change.

No he's talking about that you already have the suit on, but for some magical reason flipping the switch to seal it suddenly becomes a Complex Action because the suit isn't logged in to the interwebz.



Whereas, if the wireless is on, you don't hit the manual control at all.


It would take about the same effort to activate that seal once the suit is already worn. It's patently ridiculous to make flipping a switch suddenly more effort just because some butt-hurt Hacker wants to do everything under the sun with just the few skills he uses for his hacking. Make those hackers actually have to buy more skills to do more things like everyone else has to do.

...  Hitting a mag release requires that you shift your thumb a bit, and is a Simple Action.  Moving your hands towards the seal, finding the switch, and hitting it is a more notable amount of time and concentration.  It is ENTIRELY consistent that manual activation of a chem seal take a Complex Action, and would even be inconsistent for it to take less.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Razhul on <06-25-13/0005:53>
Why do we have to get so upset towards each other about this? It's a game and some rules are put in place to make it more fun, not more realistic. And even then, you can houserule whatever makes it fun for you.

Can we potentially get back to enjoying each other's company as Shadowrun fans, share some information about SR5 and just be excited that this great IP is being continued?  :)
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: All4BigGuns on <06-25-13/0019:27>
It is ENTIRELY consistent that manual activation of a chem seal take a Complex Action, and would even be inconsistent for it to take less.

Only because you want it to be that way, and in my opinion, the only reason to want it to be that way is because of wanting hackers to be able to only take the Electronics and Cracking skill groups and be able to do everything in the game just as good as those 'roles' that specialize in those areas.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-25-13/0049:23>
I'm sorry, but why do you think that manually activating a chem seal should take less focus and time than hitting a mag release?  My motivations are not at issue, here, and taking that route represents a logical fallacy.  You're also wrong, but that's not really the point.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Carz on <06-25-13/0050:57>
You're talking about a mental command telling your gear to ___________ itself, versus doing __________ to it with your own two hands.  For about twenty years now we've had similar speed/convenience boosts in regards to a smartlink allowing you to, for instance, eject a mag and reload faster.  Did you have the same problems with that?

Someone a bit above brought to light an item that I was not aware of, which is that DNI is only available through the matrix. I guess that is the part I have an issue with.

So no, I did not have an issue with direct, non matrix DNI smart link making things faster.
I don't have an issue with DNI making your suit activate faster or your tripod deploy faster.

I have an issue with requiring matrix connectivity to do so instead of a direct wired DNI connection.

I also have an issue with the agreget computing explanation for things that would not benefit from it.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Crunch on <06-25-13/0314:36>
Then can we accept because the corporations want it that way? Think of this as the new SOTA.

And again there is an additional bonus for being connected, not a penalty for not being.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-25-13/0329:43>
No, we cannot accept it, since it does not make sense.

MfG
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Crunch on <06-25-13/0331:44>
No, we cannot accept it, since it does not make sense.

MfG

It makes sense to me, so that statement would seem to be less absolute than you think it is.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-25-13/0334:52>
No, we cannot accept it, since it does not make sense.

MfG

It does not make sense that the corps would want it this way?  Are you seriously attempting that line of argument?
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-25-13/0351:15>
No, we cannot accept it, since it does not make sense.

MfG

It makes sense to me, so that statement would seem to be less absolute than you think it is.

Quote
Then can we accept because the corporations want it that way? Think of this as the new SOTA.

Talking about absolute.

@RHat

I am quite sure, that the corps want their own cybersoldiers and assassination black squads not working while in enemy territory, jungle or inhibitated buildings.

MfG
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: RHat on <06-25-13/0356:02>
No, we cannot accept it, since it does not make sense.

MfG

It makes sense to me, so that statement would seem to be less absolute than you think it is.

Quote
Then can we accept because the corporations want it that way? Think of this as the new SOTA.

Talking about absolute.

@RHat

I am quite sure, that the corps want their own cybersoldiers and assassination black squads not working while in enemy territory, jungle or inhibitated buildings.

MfG

Not at all hard to get online in enemy territory or the jungle - that's what satlinks are for, after all.  As for inhibited buildings, well, a completely wirelessly isolated building with no external connectivity isn't a common enough thing to actually worry about - and there are ways, if you're going for an actual assault, to get around that.  Hell, you can just create a trail of mesh tags if you need to.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Baquette on <06-25-13/0359:34>
, a completely wirelessly isolated building with no external connectivity isn't a common enough thing to actually worry about

It was in SR4 - wifi inhibitating paint was pretty common. Regarding your suggestions: lets not even start talking on how easy you can be detected and pinpointed while on enemy territory if you constantly give away signals. There is a reason for radio silence, especially when going against enemies who has the same capabilities in electronic warfare (itīs not only about hacking, itīs about infiltration on a small or large scale as well).

MfG
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-25-13/0401:03>
It makes sense to me that the corps would want that. It doesn't, however, make sense to me that it can't be hotwired by a Decker with Hardware, who jailbreaks my Chemical Seal to accept my wired trodes/datajack signal to employ faster.
Meanwhile I stick with a second commlink for communications only, which can still be hacked to feed me fake messages or attack me with a soundburst not unlike a flashbang, or disable my flare compensation and toss flares my way because I took the risk to accept Image Link input from my teammates.

As for Cloud Computing, I still would like to have the expensive option of wiring my cloud computing options into a cyberdeck. Give me a rule on how many of these calculations each deck level can run for me, so I know whether I lose my vision enhancement bonus when using my smartgun, and I know at the least that I can pay a big chunk of money to run my gear together.

And I don't mind that previous functionality in SR4 isn't there anymore in SR5, because they changed the mechanics, not just the technology. The 2074 model does exactly the same as the 2075 model when offline, because it works in the SR5 mechanics. The 2075 model, however, as well as previous models that get a firmware update, apparently got some more stuff now. And I have issues with the justifications for some of those.

- - -

Now something else I need to note: Limit modifiers mostly replaced dicepool modifiers. And I really, really, really like that. You only need to get them if you're good, can ignore them if you're not. +2 dice? Everyone needs that. +2 limit? If I got a pool of 9 and a limit of 6, one out of every 120 rolls (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnGHmiDhbql4dHZzZlpLMVJiOXJ0blY2V0p6dW00bGc#gid=0) will be limited. Do I really need to increase that? I'll pass.

Adding the dicepool modifiers back in after that is urgh. Which is why my first houserule move, which at this point I'm 95% certain I'll make, is to start by removing all dicepool modifier wireless bonuses out of the game. No matter whether you're wired, wireless or offline, all you get is the limit modifier. The dicepool modifier is gone, dead, out with the old.

In with the new would be hacking rules for communications. If you want to chitchat with others, expect a rule that lets enemy hackers send you wrong intel that cause limit penalties or even blatantly lie to you and trick you into making a really dumb move. Even if you keep your gun and ware offline, I'm pretty sure you still tend to not run radio-silent so there will be possibilities there.

As for Chemical Seal and other things like it: I'd simply make rules regarding how wires just LOVE sprinting and climbing and gymnastics and you getting hit with flechette ammo, so even if you jailbreak the stuff to work through trodes/datajacks, there will be consequences to the wired approach too.

And with that, I still give the hackers clear-defined new opportunities, there's cost/time/risk constraints to the protection mechanisms and I stick with the whole "forget dicepool modifiers" feel that I love.
Title: Re:
Post by: Sichr on <06-25-13/0749:04>
Seal not working in jammed areas? In areas with Noise? In toxic underground tunels like Deep Lacuna? I dont think so. But imo they didn't say such thing. It would still be working. But it would take to turn it on manualy. On the oposite, in sensor and cloud covered area the suit would possibly just ask for: OK on yous pan and it would filter all butthurt toxicity off with every necesary filter in its place. I used to have armor hardwired to datajack, but even that wont give me the same benefits as access to clouded info.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: KarmaInferno on <06-25-13/0832:08>
I think people are misunderstanding what a "wireless bonus" is.

It is a bonus for being connected to the Matrix.

Not merely "wirelessly controlled".

You could have two guys with tripod equipped weapons. One guy uses his DNI to command his tripod to deploy. The second guy manually deploys his tripod.

The second guy, however, has his tripod connected to the Matrix, so it completes as a Free Action. It would complete as a Free Action whether it was manually deployed, DNI-controlled, or even if there was a trained chicken sitting atop the gun pushing the "deploy" release with it's beak. Just as long as the tripod is connected to the Matrix.

The first guy, despite using speed-of-thought controls, has his tripod deploy as a complex action. Because he is NOT Matrix connected, he cannot speed it up any faster, no matter the activation method.

It the problem more clear now?




-k
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Aaron on <06-25-13/1011:11>
I think people are misunderstanding what a "wireless bonus" is.

It is a bonus for being connected to the Matrix.

Not merely "wirelessly controlled".

You could have two guys with tripod equipped weapons. One guy uses his DNI to command his tripod to deploy. The second guy manually deploys his tripod.

The second guy, however, has his tripod connected to the Matrix, so it completes as a Free Action. It would complete as a Free Action whether it was manually deployed, DNI-controlled, or even if there was a trained chicken sitting atop the gun pushing the "deploy" release with it's beak. Just as long as the tripod is connected to the Matrix.

The first guy, despite using speed-of-thought controls, has his tripod deploy as a complex action. Because he is NOT Matrix connected, he cannot speed it up any faster, no matter the activation method.

It the problem more clear now?

Quite clear: your paradigm and the one in the book are not the same. Which is fine; the game at your table is yours, and you should play the game that's fun for you.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-25-13/1034:38>
He doesn't intend to play it like that, but apparently that's how he reads the rules. Three more weeks to go before we can doublecheck. :<
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: KarmaInferno on <06-25-13/1051:41>
I have the rules. The book is very clear.

The section on tripods states they take a Complex Action to deploy, unless the Wireless Bonus is active, in which case it deploys as a free action.

Wireless bonuses happen any time the device in question is Matrix connected, and only when it is Matrix connected. DNI or manual controls are irrelevant.

I even posted the entire Wireless Bonuses chapter earlier, if you want to check my posts.


-k
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Stahlseele on <06-25-13/1110:42>
The section on tripods states they take a Complex Action to deploy, unless the Wireless Bonus is active, in which case it deploys as a free action.

Wireless bonuses happen any time the device in question is Matrix connected, and only when it is Matrix connected. DNI or manual controls are irrelevant.
which is dumb.
and also what most people are complaining about.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: KarmaInferno on <06-25-13/1138:36>
I even posted the entire Wireless Bonuses chapter earlier, if you want to check my posts.

Link for the lazy:
http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=11304.msg208791#msg208791

It's in this same thread even.


-k
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Crunch on <06-25-13/1142:52>
I guess what I'm not seeing is the text that shows that the tripod and the chemsuit have a non wireless DNI connection.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Aaron on <06-25-13/1153:08>
I guess what I'm not seeing is the text that shows that the tripod and the chemsuit have a non wireless DNI connection.
There is a bit in the book that says that all devices come with a universal data connector (I think that's what it's called), so you can make a direct connection with, for example, a datajack. While the device itself probably lacks a pilot program that can receive and execute commands from the owner, I'm sure a GM could probably be persuaded that such a connection is sufficient (especially when plied with the appropriate drink/snack--the GM, not the tripod).
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: KarmaInferno on <06-25-13/1236:00>
I guess what I'm not seeing is the text that shows that the tripod and the chemsuit have a non wireless DNI connection.

It dosen't. There is no in-universe reasoning given. Just pure game mechanics. Turn the Matrix Connection on, get the Wireless Bonus.

The activation method is irrelevant. You could be activating them with a wireless DNI link, pushing a button, or poking it with a stick. If your Matrix connection is on, the tripod or chemseal activates as a free action. If not, it's a simple or complex action.


-k
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Crunch on <06-25-13/1238:07>
I guess what I'm not seeing is the text that shows that the tripod and the chemsuit have a non wireless DNI connection.

It dosen't. There is no in-universe reasoning given. Just pure game mechanics. Turn the Matrix Connection on, get the Wireless Bonus.

The activation method is irrelevant. You could be activating them with a wireless DNI link, pushing a button, or poking it with a stick. If your Matrix connection is on, the tripod or chemseal activates as a free action. If not, it's a simple or complex action.


-k

I guess I'm not seeing this as an issue when the hundreds of things not given a reason in the SR4 base book aren't. I guess different strokes for different strokes, but honestly all the whinging just sounds sort of silly to me.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: KarmaInferno on <06-25-13/1246:03>
I activate my tripod. It deploys as a Complex Action.

I turn on the tripod's Matrix connection, then activate it. It now deploys as a free action.

I ask again, how exactly does a largely mechanical device somehow operate faster just because it's hooked to the internet?

I could understand a non-powered version taking a Complex Action to deploy or stow, a powered tripod taking a Simple Action, and DNI-commanding the powered version taking a Free Action.

I can't see how being online would help.


-k
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Crunch on <06-25-13/1302:26>
I activate my tripod. It deploys as a Complex Action.

I turn on the tripod's Matrix connection, then activate it. It now deploys as a free action.

I ask again, how exactly does a largely mechanical device somehow operate faster just because it's hooked to the internet?



-k

Because whining Hacker players want you to be forced to ignore security so that they don't have to buy more skills.

"Drop the personal attack."
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: White_Ghost on <06-25-13/1349:23>
I activate my tripod. It deploys as a Complex Action.

I turn on the tripod's Matrix connection, then activate it. It now deploys as a free action.

I ask again, how exactly does a largely mechanical device somehow operate faster just because it's hooked to the internet?



-k

Because whining Hacker players want you to be forced to ignore security so that they don't have to buy more skills.

"Drop the personal attack."

I wouldn't take it too personally. A4BG will find reason to dislike anything that makes hackers more viable in anything other than matrix actions. Even if they make sense. Anyone that agrees with those rules frustrate him.

Several of us agree that some of the wireless bonuses don't make as much sense as others, so I can see some of the arguments, but I'd like to hear more creative solutions to what we see as problems.

The Tripod example is pretty clear. I agree that no matter whether your tripod is connected to the matrix or not, it should deploy at the same rate. I believe a better solution would be the action involved by the character, for example:
Matrix connection has no part in it, and the dm should not penalize the character if there is no interference (noise) between the characters DNI and the device.

These rules aren't perfect, and that is ok. The wireless bonuses are the thing that we have the most problem with, so let's all think of ways to make them better instead of continuing to be butthurt. The mods are listening, I was able to meet a lot of the developers, they love their players and they love their game.  I know they want to hear what we think so they can improve their product.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Ghoulfodder on <06-25-13/1353:28>
I activate my tripod. It deploys as a Complex Action.

I turn on the tripod's Matrix connection, then activate it. It now deploys as a free action.

I ask again, how exactly does a largely mechanical device somehow operate faster just because it's hooked to the internet?

I could understand a non-powered version taking a Complex Action to deploy or stow, a powered tripod taking a Simple Action, and DNI-commanding the powered version taking a Free Action.

I can't see how being online would help.


-k
Can you explain why I should care either way? Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.
I suggest if you don't like it, house rule it. No amount of complaining is going to change it, it's gone to the printers already. You've had you moan, you've given your feedback. It'll get taken on board for future editions / rules and accepted or rejected.

There really is nothing more to say other than to try and win at the internet. And in that game, everyone is a loser.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-25-13/1356:34>
If you don't give a damn, then why do you come into the discussion and start to pick a fight? That's just plain silly.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Ghoulfodder on <06-25-13/1403:29>
Because I'm curious to read what people are saying about 5th and what I can pick up about it. Except when it's pointless, circular bickering about something frivolous.

And that's not picking a fight, that's heavily sanitised constructive criticism, with a flippant film quote. You don't want to see what I really think.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-25-13/1410:40>
Truth be told, I already can see that loud and clear. You're using a transparant mask.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Bull on <06-25-13/1500:36>
Kids, play nice.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-25-13/1505:16>
Butbutbutdaddy, he started it! *cries crocodile tears*

That reminds me. Dons "Bull for Mayor" badge
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-25-13/1539:03>
Gremlins ate my post. Be happy.
All that Karma Inferno and A4BG said is right.
(AND ALL THE OTHERS ARE WRONG, EVEN ME;))

@White
Quote
These rules aren't perfect, and that is ok.
That is not an argument, seriously. Nothing is perfect, but here it was obvious that things are botched relatively to common sense, and in-universe tech and so on.  So it was evident that people would complain about that. A few statement and exceptions could make sense and everyone would be happy. But it was not fixed not because of laziness, but to enforce the new motto of the game. Which is a weak move IMHO because you don't need to have "everything to imply choices and consequences" to feel the spirit of it. But the authors somehow wanted to be sure you could not grow out of it. And that is stupid (Note: they arent'. The idea can be. Just anticipating flamewars, opinion trial and word examinations).
Because rpg is not a rail road thing, and even if there should be constraint to give the game a style, well, defending the idea by saying that wireless just give bonus is not a good argument because these bonuses don't make sense for people to search them, but if you don't you are lacking compared to the people who have no reason to not be connected, which are usually your target, and that a single hacker can't dispose of because they are too numerous, and also because if he tried, in the end statistically it will cause him to fail and be spotted and make fail the operation.
So it is not a carrot but a stick if you are not connected.
Allegedly you don't oppose only to corpos but that's still a central part of the game.

Quote
The wireless bonuses are the thing that we have the most problem with, so let's all think of ways to make them better instead of continuing to be butthurt. The mods are listening, I was able to meet a lot of the developers, they love their players and they love their game.  I know they want to hear what we think so they can improve their product.
I wrote an outline of house rules in the shout out to matrix rules thread.
Take a look at it if you want, I just not complained and I based upon a lot of smart remarks all around.
And for the developpers, they may be present on the board, but for this concern, they are not willing to acknowledge there is a problem (If I misread Aaron post in this thread, all my excuses, but here I think I would not be alone if it was the case, and also, that is not an attack, just an observation, each one of us interpret this will as he likes, I just think about this "gimmick of the game" thing), so unluckily "improving it" will be houserules only, I guess; not even errata (because erratas exist, so pointing problem, even when book is printed, is not pointless, note for Ghoulfodder. THAT is constructive. Not try to teach lessons to others with petty quotations)
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <06-25-13/1542:17>
I can accept that the tripod bonus isn't that realistic. The chemical seal is much more on the borderline. So, you've found proof of one bad call made by the game designers. Shocking. I'm sure we'll find four or five others, and have to houserule it. It doesn't invalidate the whole concept or the majority of the uses.

I thought the whole wireless bonus thing was pretty stupid when I first read about it as well, and complained on these boards. But if the worst that happens is that I have to houserule on tripods, then it's far from a big worry. I'm intrigued about the potential of decker cover becoming something similar to Magician cover from spells. A new aspect to the battlefield.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: White_Ghost on <06-25-13/1700:51>

Quote
These rules aren't perfect, and that is ok.
That is not an argument, seriously.

I hadn't meant it to be an argument, so you are right. let me explain:

What I had meant to imply, is that this is the first printing of a brand new edition. Additionally, many of us still don't even have it.

This doesn't mean that there is no room for improvement. I think that some of these bonuses or penalties are nonsensical, and lore doesn't give a proper explanation as to why these new features are necessary or convenient. I don't expect these to be fixed right away, but I do expect our feedback to make some sort of impact. These rules aren't perfect, but we have plenty of time to discuss and change them to something that works. It's important that we do, because as you said, it's a central part of the game.


Quote
The wireless bonuses are the thing that we have the most problem with, so let's all think of ways to make them better instead of continuing to be butthurt. The mods are listening, I was able to meet a lot of the developers, they love their players and they love their game.  I know they want to hear what we think so they can improve their product.
I wrote an outline of house rules in the shout out to matrix rules thread.
Take a look at it if you want, I just not complained and I based upon a lot of smart remarks all around.

I'm glad that you did! The butthurt that I refer to lives in this thread, as you've seen above. People are complaining in circles, I just want to nudge them back on topic. I'll take a look at the thread you suggested.


And for the developpers, they may be present on the board, but for this concern, they are not willing to acknowledge there is a problem (If I misread Aaron post in this thread, all my excuses, but here I think I would not be alone if it was the case, and also, that is not an attack, just an observation, each one of us interpret this will as he likes, I just think about this "gimmick of the game" thing), so unluckily "improving it" will be houserules only, I guess; not even errata (because erratas exist, so pointing problem, even when book is printed, is not pointless, note for Ghoulfodder. THAT is constructive. Not try to teach lessons to others with petty quotations)

I expect that this will be something addressed in the rigger and matrix splat books, but not the initial release. Errata is also possible. I intend to throw Ideas and feedback their way to get our point across though. I know that when the official release comes out next month, we'll have a lot of discussion on this issue and many more to convince them to 'acknowledge' there is a problem.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Sichr on <06-25-13/1720:30>
Because I'm curious to read what people are saying about 5th and what I can pick up about it. Except when it's pointless, circular bickering about something frivolous.

And that's not picking a fight, that's heavily sanitised constructive criticism, with a flippant film quote. You don't want to see what I really think.

+1 to this
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Boomstick on <06-25-13/1801:40>
let me explain:
Then we agree;)
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: KarmaInferno on <06-25-13/1932:01>
I'm glad that you did! The butthurt that I refer to lives in this thread, as you've seen above. People are complaining in circles, I just want to nudge them back on topic. I'll take a look at the thread you suggested.

I'd point out that the original subject of this entire thread is about wireless bonuses.

My last few posts were in response to several folks who seemed to be under the erroneous impression that Wireless Bonuses stemmed from being wirelessly DNI linked to gear.




Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Kudzu on <06-25-13/2123:15>


I ask again, how exactly does a largely mechanical device somehow operate faster just because it's hooked to the internet?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCM1seqnAuY
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: FastJack on <06-26-13/0723:01>
An offensive post has been removed and action taken.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: MadBear on <06-26-13/1045:06>
Kudzu, if a computer controlled mechanical device had access to more computing power, it could certainly conceivably operate more efficiently. Enough to warrant a bonus? That part is debatable.
What I have to wonder, is if every device on the planet including toasters takes advantage of cloud computing, are there ways to take advantage of that? Could you set your own devices to NOT contribute to the cloud? Could you program a hundred toasters with a virus that negatively affects any computing they contribute to, then spread them about an area where you expect to need a tactical advantage?
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: cndblank on <06-26-13/2335:10>
"There is no real explanation why an Item that did exist in 2050,2060 or 2074 should disappear suddenly in the Year 2075."

Try a real life item from 2007 (see below).

The technology has been around for 70 years but is suddenly gone.

And they were in the 4th edition core rulebook now they are not?
Not cool considering how common they are in most groups.

I expect a lot of people are going to be going "WHERE IS MY SKINLINK?"

That said I can not wait to see 5th.
Sounds like a lot of structural problems have been fixed.



[CEATEC] Transfer Data to and from Your Hand, Human Body Communication Devices
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Oct 3, 2007 19:30 Hideo Ampo, Nikkei Electronics


Data is sent from a mobile phone to a wireless headset via the human body.


Data is sent from a transmitter module embedded in the floor to a mobile phone for playback. The communication can be established even with shoes on.


Music is played back on a portable music player by using the human communication module.

Devices and components utilizing the "human body communication" function are on display at CEATEC Japan 2007. The function performs communications via the human body.

NTT DoCoMo Inc. unveiled a mobile phone and Alps Electric Co. Ltd. showed a communication module using the function.

NTT DoCoMo prototyped a mobile phone equipped with a module for human body communication system. A user who carries this handset in a pocket or around his or her neck can send and receive data simply by holding their hand over the communication terminal.

In the existing system such as "Osaihu Kehtai (Wallet Mobile Phone)," a user has to take out the handset and hold it over the communication terminal. NTT DoCoMo's new handset makes it possible to establish communications just by holding a hand over the terminal, even with the phone in a pocket.

At the exhibition site, the company demonstrated sending music data from a mobile phone to a wireless headset. The headset is provided with an electrode and a reception module. It receives music data via the human body and plays it back on a speaker. The company also demonstrated sending text data from a transmitter module embedded in the floor and receiving the data by the mobile phone via the human body.

"We will possibly manage to commercialize the product in 2009, although we have not decided the release schedule," the company said.

The prototype handset was manufactured by Fujitsu Ltd. The communication module incorporated in the handset is a joint development by Alps Electric and Kaiser Technology Inc. The data transmission rate of the communication module is 40 kbps.

At Alps Electric's booth, the company also demonstrated transmitting music data by using a module for the human communication system. The company installed communication modules connected with a portable music player and a speaker.

When a visitor holds hands over the modules, data is transmitted via the human body and music is played back. Mass production of this communication module "will be ready within this fiscal year" (by March 2009), said a technical demonstrator of the Optic & Sensor Project of Alps Electric's New Business Promotion Division.

In this communication system, data can be transmitted even when a user does not directly touch the communication module, i.e. when the user's hand is located several centimeters away from the module or positioned behind an insulator such as a handkerchief. The setup utilizes what is called "electric field communication system" in which the human body acts as a sort of capacitor to transmit data.

The data transmission rate of the communication module is 40 kbps. (The module is capable of both sending and receiving data.)

"We are planning to develop a module that allows transmission at a rate of several kbps to several hundred kbps," said a developer from the Third Sensor Project of the Third Development Department at the Process Technology Development Center, which is part of the Business Development Division of Alps Electric.

According to the company, the power consumption of this system is an order of magnitude lower than that of Bluetooth and other comparable technologies.

The human body communication system is expected to be generally used for transmitting information of business cards, documents, photos, etc. between mobile terminals held by people shaking hands or approaching to each other, voice transmission between a mobile phone and a headset, ticket gate where passengers can go through just by waving their hand over the machine, and electronic locking/unlocking system.

Furthermore, the human body communication system enables a couple to share one portable music player by holding their hands or cuddling up so that they can listen to the same music on their headsets.

"Other application fields are expected such as healthcare, where the system can be used to store data measured by a body fat scale into a mobile phone and gaming utilizing body communications," said the Alps Electric technical demonstrator.

"The human body communication system is roughly classified into two types using different methods, i.e. electric field system and electric current system, and the R&D is promoted for both types," said Hideyuki Nebiya, president and C.E.O. of Amplet Inc., who is familiar with the human body communication system.

Nebiya also works as an instructor at Department of Electrical and Electronic Engineering, School of Engineering of Tokyo Denki University as well as as an instructor of Information Communication Technology Course at Yokosuka Telecom Research Park Inc.

"Human body communication devices for military purposes have been developed worldwide," he said. "In Europe, such military devices are actively developed. But there are only few cases where human body communication system is utilized in consumer products."

"Japan also has a good chance of taking initiative in the market development," he added. "Standardization must be considered by the entire industry so as to achieve compatibility with other near field wireless communication systems and optical communication systems."

    CEATEC JAPAN 2007 Special Site


Quote
boosted reflexes...
Way of the Samurai ;)

And Dikote was used as Houserules in quite some Groups I know.
(mostly with AP-1 and the cost from SR3)

There is no real explanation why an Item that did exist in 2050,2060 or 2074 should disapeear suddenly in the Year 2075.
I bet there's still some  Pocket Secretaries that You can buy  in Shadowrun
As well as you can still buy Music tapes nowadays

HokaHey
Medicineman
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Lysanderz on <06-28-13/0351:58>
A Pocket Secretary... shit. I'm totally running with one of those now. Just so when my team see's it they go

"Man, you know there is this shit called... COMMLINKS now, right?"

And I'll be like "Bitch please, it's a classic"
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: MadBear on <06-28-13/1037:05>
There are still Hipsters in 2075?
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <06-28-13/1146:25>
Quote
There are still Hipsters in 2075?
Yes, they are called elves.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Lysanderz on <06-28-13/1330:25>
@ MadBear

You know what a good hardware/demolitions skill and a Pocket secretary can do? HE Grenade. Who's gonna suspect that your Pocket Secretary is full of C4?
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: MadBear on <06-28-13/1349:43>
Why do you think I carry a bag of toasters with me at all times? No one ever thinks to search toasters for explosives, and in the 2070's even toasters are wireless...
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: Lysanderz on <06-28-13/1355:19>
Shit, I guess I shouldn't have snuck one away from you to cook my breakfast with this morning...... we might wanna run away.
Title: Re: SR5 matrix / online bonus and the wifi inhibitating building or deserted area
Post by: MadBear on <06-28-13/1752:01>
Not really, they operate like regular grenades, so unless you wirelessly triggered the toast to pop up, it won't go off. Though there is always the chance some random hacker got bored, found the node, and hacked it just for the he-BAM!