[Sendaz]

Cause we all know the horrors just want to be loved, like the Shedim.

Well some of them do.

Is it their fault we are just too flimsy to be able to survive those hugs?

[Reaver]

You and I seem to have vastly different definition of "Hugs"

No where in my definition is 'Rend your sanity and/or Soul', listed in "Hugs"....

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

They do!!  Verjigorm is actually a very fluffy little bunny that just wants to be petted.

Honestly, ALL the Earthdawn magic exists in SR - but because of the barely-over-the-line mana level, most of it can't be executed.  Name magic (i.e. true names) exists in SR - look at free spirits - and is, honestly, one of the most subtle ones in Shadowrun - but only the Superpowered NPCs probably know how to reeeeeally make it apply to entities that aren't free spirits.  Which means that for the purposes of the game and most PCs, it doesn't exist.  The rules for it certainly don't.

Which means, of course, that Joe is yet again claiming canon for his own wild hair-up-his-arse decisions.

Joe, repeat after me: "Unless I can go back and point to specific things within SR canon - giving book, page, and paragraph - without referring to either Earthdawn, my home game, or my personal theories - I will preface everything I say with 'I think', 'I believe', 'It is my theory that', or something similar to make it absolutely clear that I am not claiming canon, misleading the newbies, and/or attempting to make myself look like an ass."

We'll respect you a hell of a lot more for it - and we'll actually be able to have discussions with you instead of the standard 'shut up, Joe, you moron' responses that we come out with whenever you post.  Trust me, we really WOULD like to talk about this stuff with you, but since you post as though your ideas are canon, all we can do is hammer you for them.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Cause we all know the horrors just want to be loved, like the Shedim.

Well some of them do.

Is it their fault we are just too flimsy to be able to survive those hugs?

No it is not! They hug to hard! Plus, between the small equines and the Care Bears (aka Horrors) the Shedim are nice, just hug to hard (aka your dead, meatbag).

[CitizenJoe]

I never said the Horrors were a good thing.  What I have proposed is that Dunkelzahn lied the whole time and has either attempted to bring them over early or hold us back so that when they do arrive we'll be completely unaware.

But let me make this point VERY clear.  I will NEVER debase my opinion with something so self evidently obvious as "I think" or "in my opinion".  I will deign to ask you not to resort to ad hominem attacks.  A simple retort of "that is not canon" will suffice.  FYI, I do know what the canon says, otherwise I would be able to produce the opposing narrative.   But we already have enough people extolling the canon, so I don't see the need to add anything to that bucket.  However, should a GM decide to add a twist or interest or uncertainty to their game, the alternative narratives are there (and largely out of the eyes of prying players).  Also, I called nanite zombies for Lockdown back when everyone was claiming blue 52.  I called Deus escaping years ago, before this CFD stuff.  It was all just "wild speculation" back then too.  I'm not saying I'm batting a thousand, but you miss every shot you don't take.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I'm sorry, Joe - we discuss canon here.  People come here with questions about canon - which we answer.  Speaking about canon is presumed.  Without any such statement, it is automatically presumed that you're speaking about canon - not that it is 'something so self evidently obvious' as being a personal game, thought, or opinion.  WE prepend anything that isn't actually canon with 'I think', 'It's my theory that', and all the rest.  We come up with theories, and a huge host of accurate shots - my accuracy goes back well before yours, and includes a two-years-distant shot predicting Deus's escape of the Arcology via the Network - which I prefaced with 'I think', and all the other 'this is my theory' phrases.

If you think that that's 'debasement', then fine, think that.  You will continue to be looked upon with derision, contempt, and everything else that you currently do - you know, 'oh, gee, there's Joe going off worse than Plan 9 because he wont' 'debase' himself by saying his opinion is his opinion and not canon, like everyone else does' - because you refuse to participate in an actual dialogue.

Until you're willing to stop acting the local nutcase, you really have no room to bitch if we call you a nutcase - which I didn't, because y'know, I'm really very, very good at not making ad hominem arguments.  'You're a nutcase' is ad hominem; 'you're acting like a nutcase' is not.

As I said:

We'll respect you a hell of a lot more for it - and we'll actually be able to have discussions with you instead of the standard 'shut up, Joe, you moron' responses that we come out with whenever you post.  Trust me, we really WOULD like to talk about this stuff with you, but since you post as though your ideas are canon, all we can do is hammer you for them.

So if you don't want courtesy or respect your ideas or purported accuracy could earn for you, then by all means, continue to believe that simply using 'I think' and the rest is beneath you.  We'll continue to ignore you and remind people that 'What Joe says ain't canon' instead of having a useful conversation about it.

[CitizenJoe]

Fine. Canon: Horrors don't exist in Shadowrun because they are a different intellectual property from Shadowrun.  Topic closed.  Have a nice day.

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

Actually, the whole Care Bear thing was my sarcastic response to your statements trying to defend, against canon, that Shedim are misunderstood and not malevolent beings trying to kill every living thing. So because of that those 2ish pages of you defending your opinion, anytime you post about Horrors, Shedim, or any of the few other completely unredeemable EVIL things in this setting, I can help but make Care Bear jokes. First Care Bear joke I made was around page 4ish of Is ShadowRun really this Brutal?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Sorry, no: canon is that Horrors, the Enemy, however you want to call them, do exist in Shadowrun, because even though Earthdawn is currently an intellectual property owned by somebody else, they were once owned by the same corporation, and during that time of singular ownership, beings from the one were brought over to the other.  Ysgraithe, for example.  Once again you fail the 'is this canon?' test, because apparently despite claiming you know your shit, you really, really don't.

[CitizenJoe]

I think you missed my point.  Dogmatic appeal to canon has a chilling effect on discourse and creativity. 

[Rosa]

Shadowrun canon provides the only meaningfull common framework as a starting point for any discussions. Without a common framework you cannot have a meaningfull discussion of any sort, much less any creativity, rather you just have a bunch of people shouting nonsense from their own personal speakers box.

Now i personally applaud houserules and personal interpretations of the game World and sometimes will even try to argue that my interpretation makes more sense than the canon version. But for there to be even a discussion, we all need to agree on what the canon actually is. This is pretty basic for any sort of discourse.

[CitizenJoe]

Justify Mt Rainier being southwest of Seattle and I'll consider your stance on canon having merit.

[Moonshine Fox]

Um, Mt Rainier is, from maps of Shadowrun North American, placed Southeast of Seattle, right were it's at in real life.  Also, it's called the parallel world theorem. Just because we accept the set story that the makers of the game and world decide doesn't mean that things are exactly the way they are in reality.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Justify Mt Rainier being southwest of Seattle and I'll consider your stance on canon having merit.

What?

Canon is published material; that's it, no more, no less. If published material had Mr. Rainier placed just north of Dublin, Ireland, then that's what the canon location of Mt. Rainier would be in the context of the fictional  setting. The real world location of Mt. Rainier has absolutely no impact on the canon location of same where Shadowrun is concerned.

Nonsensical statement is nonsensical.

[CitizenJoe]

Ever since first edition it has canonically been south west.

I'd call it a typo, but it hasn't been fixed yet.  That's my go to example of bad canon.  The other is the Trojan-Satsop meltdown.