Author Topic: Combat, Cover, Movement, Guns and Melee  (Read 100 times)

Tao

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Combat, Cover, Movement, Guns and Melee
« on: (07:51:16/01-11-18) »
Hello fellow Runners,

I’ve only recently started playing SR5 and have yet to wrap my head around the initiative passes, movement and action phases. There are several threads on this already, but I’m still at a loss as to some of the details so any help would be greatly appreciated!

Now, I will try to break down a combat turn in my hypothetical scenario and would be grateful if you guys could point out any mistakes.

(Beforehand, a huge thank you for any help and especially anyone willing to read through this whole post to help me out!!! :) )

For simplicity sake, let’s assume two combatants: X and Y

X rolled his Initiative at 23, Y at 16

Scenario 1:

Both are holding their ARES Predator V heavy pistols in hand and are spaced 20 meters apart.

They are on a flat plain with a single large slab of marble (3 meters cubed) placed five meters to the right of X.

X has a higher Ini. thus goes first. For his action phase, he declares that he wants to fire his gun at Y and then move into cover behind the huge block of marble. 

His first simple action is thus: “Take Aim” for a +1 dice mod., then his second Simple Action is “Fire Weapon” (not relevant, but let’s say he only deals 1 physical damage after soak, so no wound penalties for Y).
He then walks behind the block of marble (with agility 5) and stops there. He is not yet considered running because he has only moved 6 meters so far.

Question 1 at this stage: if the block of marble was 12 meters away he would have to use a free action “run” which inflicts the running movement modifiers. This includes a -2 mod. for any action while running. Since he wasn’t running yet for his first two simple actions (aiming and firing gun) he didn’t get that penalty at the time, but would get it if he fired his gun again in the second initiative pass, correct?

Now it’s Y’s Action Phase. He can no longer see X as he is fully covered by the block of marble and since it is marble he gives up on the idea of simply firing through the obstacle blindly to hit X.

So, he declares that he wants to run at a slight angle until he can see X behind the block of marble, then shoot him.

He has Agility 6 and can thus can run max. 24 meters before needing to sprint.

1st Free action: “Run”, he then moves 22 meters slightly perpendicular to the marble block until he can see X, 2nd simple action: “take Aim” for +1 dice mod. 3rd simple action: fire gun, but with a -2 mod. because he is running, total -1 mod. (It would have been a -4 mod. if X had used a free-action “run” to move behind the block of marble, thus total of -3 mod, correct?).

Question 2 at this stage: Would both X and Y have to roll “surprise” as neither of them can see each other?

Question 3: what if the block of marble wasn’t marble but thin cardboard. Y could attack X directly but because he can’t see him he would receive a -6 modifier for firing blind. Correct? Would X still get to dodge the attack though? Or not because he can’t see the attack coming? What if he had the Adept Power “Combat Sense”? Could he roll perception + surprise to see if he can “feel” the attack coming?
What if Y didn’t attack X but simply shot at the cardboard itself, thus without a -6 mod.? Assume the cardboard is 4 meters wide and Y has no idea where X is standing. Would the bullet always miss?

Scenario 2:

Now, let’s assume the same situation as before, but this time X does not have a gun, but is looking to engage Y in unarmed combat. Also, he is standing 22 meters from Y so he can’t directly engage him with agility 5 (which will only carry him 20 meters) and sprinting would require a complex action.

X goes first, declaring he wants to run behind the block of marble and delay his action to be used during the initiative of Y, so that when he sees Y coming into view around the marble he can try to defend against Y’s first attack and then run at him to attack him in close combat.

So, X uses Free Action "run" and runs 6 meters behind the block of marble and delays.

Y uses his initiative as before to run perpendicular until he can see X. Now it gets tricky, as both are using the same initiative score to act.

I’m assuming Y takes aim for his first action. X uses this time to run his remaining distance to “charge into melee combat” with Y. Y then fires his gun during his second action and X attacks simultaneously with his complex action unarmed attack?

Question 4: does X get to defend against Y’s attack if he chose to act in the same initiative as Y? Or would he have had to declare going after Y to get the defense roll? What about Y? Does he get to defend against X if X is acting in the same initiative?

Question 5: what if X is an Adept with the “Motion Sense” power. Could X choose to delay his action behind the marble block until he can “feel” Y moving and then engage him in close combat before Y can react? Would Y have to succeed at a surprise check to fire his gun in time as he can’t see X?
Could X with his motion sense keep moving around the block of marble to always keep out of sight of Y until their movement ran out for the turn and the second initiative pass started?

Ok, now my head is spinning…

Final question:

Are there any printed house-rules on combat to make it feel a little smoother? As it stands it feels very much like playing chess and not like a fluid action scene. Perhaps a GM can use "common sense" to depict a combat scene based on the declared actions of the participants and cut corners on all the technicalities?

Thank you to anyone having read this far and for any help!  ;D
« Last Edit: (10:27:26/01-11-18) by Tao »

Jack_Spade

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Re: Combat, Cover, Movement, Guns and Melee
« Reply #1 on: (08:48:08/01-11-18) »
Scenario 1

Answer 1: You declare run at the start of your Combat Phase. You have to start shooting while you are moving or you won't make it out of the line of fire in time. So the -3 applies to the first shot

Answer 2: No. Surprise applies only if you are unaware of a threat. Not being able to see is not sufficient to being surprised

Answer 3: Yes, without line of sight you apply blindness mods aka -6. This works both ways: If the attacked doesn't see the attack coming he loses his defense. Note though, that you also have to penetrate the cover which can reduce damage or entirely negate damage (except of course for cardboard)

Scenario 2:
You can either delay your action or move and take it. It's not possible to split your movement up in this way (essentially you'd take part of your action at your regular ini and part at the ini of your opponent, in essence acting twice.

Answer 4: Neither of them are surprised, both get their defense

Answer 5: Motion sense is just another form of perception. It's a good way to time an intercept for a delayed action, but it won't grant surprise if both parties have been aware of each other.
Running circles around each other doesn't change that.
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Tao

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Re: Combat, Cover, Movement, Guns and Melee
« Reply #2 on: (10:26:33/01-11-18) »
Thanks Jack_Spade for your help! A few questions:

Scenario 1

Answer 1: You declare run at the start of your Combat Phase.
Right, because all actions have to be declared during step 3a, declare action phase. That makes sense.

Scenario 1

Answer 3: Yes, without line of sight you apply blindness mods aka -6. This works both ways: If the attacked doesn't see the attack coming he loses his defense. Note though, that you also have to penetrate the cover which can reduce damage or entirely negate damage (except of course for cardboard
So what happens if Y attacked the cardboard where he guesses X to be rather than trying to aim for X behind the cardboard? Attacking someone behind the cardboard directly (-6) is as much of a guess as just shooting at the cardboard and hoping to hit the person behind it.

Scenario 2:
You can either delay your action or move and take it. It's not possible to split your movement up in this way (essentially you'd take part of your action at your regular ini and part at the ini of your opponent, in essence acting twice.
So then in SR5 combat it's not possible to use e.g. motion sense to keep someone out of sight by walking around an obstacle because each movement is resolved in its own action phase?

Jack_Spade

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Re: Combat, Cover, Movement, Guns and Melee
« Reply #3 on: (10:58:52/01-11-18) »
Blind fire is always a kind of educated guess, so it's the same situation. SR 5 doesn't have rules for accidental discharges where you hit somebody without intending too. A GM could ask for an Edge roll from one or both participants.

You can act at the same time as your opponent through the delay action. The only thing you can't do is run for cover first and then wait in ambush. In essence it just enables you to see your opponent without him having line of sight to you. This helps you insofar as you can gauge exactly when to start your turn (Y moves at ini 16, without any form of perception of him, you wouldn't know when to start moving).
If you delay to 16 as well, you both declare your actions at the same time and since you can sense him, you can adjust your own actions accordingly (he starts to run, you run too, he stays put, you stay put too, etc.)

talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Tao

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Re: Combat, Cover, Movement, Guns and Melee
« Reply #4 on: (12:26:30/01-11-18) »
Ok, thank you for the clarifications, Jack_Spade! That actually makes perfect sense :)
 
In essence it just enables you to see your opponent without him having line of sight to you.
That seems like a huge advantage though! Perhaps based on this plus a stealth roll to come up behind Y during such a maneuver would allow a surprise test... and I'm sure there are other situations where this would come in handy (throwing grenades from behind cover and dodging bullets coming through cover come to mind).


Jack_Spade

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Re: Combat, Cover, Movement, Guns and Melee
« Reply #5 on: (12:56:51/01-11-18) »
Certainly, if you pin point the target you can even fire at it without gaining blind fire mods.  ;D

And yes, a successful sneak test (with all the appropriate modifiers) can cause a surprise test.
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex