Author Topic: spirit as guard  (Read 1450 times)

ShadowcatX

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #15 on: (08:38:04/12-28-17) »
(Actually, this post is 2 years old :P)

What some people are forgetting is that Spirits are Sapient. Which means they are fallible. All the usual methods of getting past a guard will work on a Spirit. fast talk, distraction, stealth, bribery, etc. 

I'm not sure that is true, even ignoring how do you interact with something on a different plane. Bribery, for example. The spirit HAS to obey commands, it cannot choose not to obey commands, so bribing it to not obey commands is pointless.

ShadowcatX

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #16 on: (08:42:36/12-28-17) »
Its important to note that mana illusions affect the mind of the targets(s). If you have a mana illusion successfully affect a spirit its all in their mind and the fact they are dual natured is meaningless.

That is not entirely true. The people would be invisible, the aura of the spell would not. A smart spirit would know "a spell just walked through the door" = a person just walked through the door.

Also, you cannot cross planes with spell casting so unless you cast invisibility while projecting it isn't going to effect the spirit.

Reaver

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #17 on: (22:30:33/12-28-17) »
(Actually, this post is 2 years old :P)

What some people are forgetting is that Spirits are Sapient. Which means they are fallible. All the usual methods of getting past a guard will work on a Spirit. fast talk, distraction, stealth, bribery, etc. 

I'm not sure that is true, even ignoring how do you interact with something on a different plane. Bribery, for example. The spirit HAS to obey commands, it cannot choose not to obey commands, so bribing it to not obey commands is pointless.

That all depends on the spirit, the reputation of the conjuror,  and the command given. There is a lot of wiggle room often times in what someone says, and what they mean.

"Watch that door, and alert me if someone opens it" is a VERY open command to a spirit that really doesn't like you. Yes, it "has" to watch the door, Yes it has to alert you if someone opens it, BUT; nothing stops the spirit of telling someone what exactly is on the other side. Nor does it specify WHEN the spirit has to tell you when someone opens the door. (that is implied as "right away") Meaning the spirit right before its summons is up could say "oh yea, while I was watching the door, 53 people opened it"..




Like I said, Spirits are Sapient. They are not robotic automatons. They have faults like everyone and everything else, its just finding and exploiting those faults can be harder (or easier) then people think! 
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Rosa

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #18 on: (00:52:16/12-29-17) »
I agree 100% with Reavers interpretation of spirits.  Spirits are intelligent,  have feelings,  goals wants and desires just like any other sapient creature,  that has been made abundantly clear in the last two editions and they will most likely use whatever wriggle room their orders leave them if they don't like you. In comparison just think of how you would feel if some jerk who probably views you as little better than a pet or worse asked you to stand in the same spot and look at a door for 12 hours. Bored out of your skull before the first 10 minutes were up, and then the resentment begins building. In probably less than an hour you'd be desperate for something to break the routine and likely pissed at the idiot who asked you to do this,  then your attention starts to wander and so on. ......... Yes i know that with training like for example soldiers have you can actually stand guard for a long time, but a spirit is very unlikely to have such training. In honesty it would probably be more effective to just put a sensor on the door to register if it's opened and have the spirit do something more worthwhile.  I usually have spirits be more like a roving guard patrol or something like that, but I have also used bored spirits guarding something as a challenge to players that could actually be overcome in more ways than fighting, it can be great fun.

Mirikon

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #19 on: (01:05:11/12-29-17) »
Regardless of what your hermetic textbook tells you, spirits are not automatons. They have feelings and desires, and they communicate with eachother. Treat them with respect, and you're golden. Disrespect them at your peril.
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PiXeL01

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #20 on: (03:59:16/12-29-17) »
If you want automatons then you should go Elementals. Look into Forbidden Arcana for those. They are dumb and very literal in their command interpretation

ShadowcatX

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #21 on: (11:58:15/12-29-17) »
(Actually, this post is 2 years old :P)

What some people are forgetting is that Spirits are Sapient. Which means they are fallible. All the usual methods of getting past a guard will work on a Spirit. fast talk, distraction, stealth, bribery, etc. 

I'm not sure that is true, even ignoring how do you interact with something on a different plane. Bribery, for example. The spirit HAS to obey commands, it cannot choose not to obey commands, so bribing it to not obey commands is pointless.

That all depends on the spirit, the reputation of the conjuror,  and the command given. There is a lot of wiggle room often times in what someone says, and what they mean.

"Watch that door, and alert me if someone opens it" is a VERY open command to a spirit that really doesn't like you. Yes, it "has" to watch the door, Yes it has to alert you if someone opens it, BUT; nothing stops the spirit of telling someone what exactly is on the other side. Nor does it specify WHEN the spirit has to tell you when someone opens the door. (that is implied as "right away") Meaning the spirit right before its summons is up could say "oh yea, while I was watching the door, 53 people opened it"..




Like I said, Spirits are Sapient. They are not robotic automatons. They have faults like everyone and everything else, its just finding and exploiting those faults can be harder (or easier) then people think!

If you assume that mages are idiots who are commanding their first ever spirit, then sure. If you believe that a high logic and a professional level of skill actually implies an IQ higher than a toddler that doesn't work, sorry.

SunRunner

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #22 on: (12:55:31/12-29-17) »
I have worked with alot of very experienced and very intelligent people who treat the other people they work with like garbage and I have enjoyed screwing them over because of it on a few occasions. Spirits are the same way and trust me giving orders that are air tight is impossible, and most GMs dont want to deal with that level of contract law in a game. This is all the purview of the GM and how they feel about things, at this point there are no rules involved its how the GM interprets thing and that is going to vary from table to table. I and a few others just wanted to put the thought that spirits are not just automatons that follow commands perfectly out there. Heck I have had games go totally of the rails because of badly worded commands to spirits with NO ill intent at all. imagine if the runners are doing a hostile extraction and they lose track of the target but realize they are facing a dug in protection detail and they know the alert for help has gone out and they are on the clock for the HTR team to show up. The mage sends in a spirit with the command to kill everyone in the next room. when they kick in the door after the screaming has stopped they realize the target was in the room and hes dead because the spirit killed him because he was in the room.

Sphinx

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #23 on: (14:48:16/12-29-17) »
Figure an expert summoner will be much more experienced in wording instructions than an average player (contract lawyers notwithstanding). If you have a situation where the spirit or some third party is trying to find a loophole in the spirit's instructions, make an opposed test between the magician's Summoning + Logic and the spirit's Force + Logic, or the third party's Summoning + Logic (or maybe Con + Logic if you're feeling generous).

Reaver

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #24 on: (13:42:38/12-30-17) »
(Actually, this post is 2 years old :P)

What some people are forgetting is that Spirits are Sapient. Which means they are fallible. All the usual methods of getting past a guard will work on a Spirit. fast talk, distraction, stealth, bribery, etc. 

I'm not sure that is true, even ignoring how do you interact with something on a different plane. Bribery, for example. The spirit HAS to obey commands, it cannot choose not to obey commands, so bribing it to not obey commands is pointless.

That all depends on the spirit, the reputation of the conjuror,  and the command given. There is a lot of wiggle room often times in what someone says, and what they mean.

"Watch that door, and alert me if someone opens it" is a VERY open command to a spirit that really doesn't like you. Yes, it "has" to watch the door, Yes it has to alert you if someone opens it, BUT; nothing stops the spirit of telling someone what exactly is on the other side. Nor does it specify WHEN the spirit has to tell you when someone opens the door. (that is implied as "right away") Meaning the spirit right before its summons is up could say "oh yea, while I was watching the door, 53 people opened it"..




Like I said, Spirits are Sapient. They are not robotic automatons. They have faults like everyone and everything else, its just finding and exploiting those faults can be harder (or easier) then people think!

If you assume that mages are idiots who are commanding their first ever spirit, then sure. If you believe that a high logic and a professional level of skill actually implies an IQ higher than a toddler that doesn't work, sorry.

Me thinks you need to get out more. There are many very intelligent people who make stupid decisions all day long. There are many  people who say one thing, thinking it means one thing, only to have what they said interpreted In an unexpected way (See this all day long on a construction site among the trades).





Oh and morons are found everywhere. Ask the Crown Prosecutor that tried to take me to court. HE ended up paying my legal bills AND giving ME money after  he tried to sue me for a car accident. 
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Rosa

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #25 on: (01:15:51/12-31-17) »
We convey meaning and intent with much more than just spoken words, contextual understanding, body language, inflection. .....etc. Even if you think you have been crystal clear with no room for misunderstanding, you can easily be misinterpreted, especially if the person you're giving instructions really wants to. Orders given to spirits and metahumans for that matter carry intent as well as instructions, any order does, if you really wish to disobey the intent but stick to the actual words that's pretty easy. As Sunrunner said no order is airtight, even if given by someone fairly competent and intelligent.

Slipperychicken

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #26 on: (16:28:41/01-02-18) »
Something basic like getting a spirit to watch a door should have best-practices. Security organizations probably have this stuff spelled out precisely to reduce unwanted variation in spirit behavior.

If there's real ambiguity in what the player said, I say have the player roll a knowledge skill ('Magical Security' threshold 1, 'Security Protocols' threshold 3), and if he succeeds then retcon him to have made the instruction properly. If the player glitches or crit-glitches, then the GM thinks of a hilarious and damning misinterpretation. If the spirit likes the summoner and is really trying to enact the intended meaning of the unclear instruction, maybe have it roll Judge Intentions as a teamwork test with the player's knowledge to see if it figures it out.

The thresholds I gave were just for monitoring a single passage. I'd consider assigning a higher knowledge threshold for a more complicated or non-intuitive instruction.
« Last Edit: (16:34:31/01-02-18) by Slipperychicken »

Reaver

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #27 on: (03:40:59/01-04-18) »
Something basic like getting a spirit to watch a door should have best-practices. Security organizations probably have this stuff spelled out precisely to reduce unwanted variation in spirit behavior.

In the best practices for WHOM ? The person who is giving the orders? Or the person who has to follow them? Remember, they are two separate individuals, with separate ideals, wants, desires, and possibly opposite objectives!
Remember nothing is cut and dried, heck if it was, these forums wouldn't be here :P And the Law profession would be out of work.  Interpretation is key, and subjective to the individual who hears the commands, and can be twisted and warped as suits that individual - this is what your spirit index helps to measure.

If you have a really crappy Spirit Index, expect your Spirits to twist and warp every command to their best advantage - you have proven that you are NOT their ally after all.
However, if your Spirit Index is good, then spirits are going to be more inclined to interpret your orders in a favorable way - because you HAVE proven to be an friend of spirits.

Security organizations DO run into these problems, that is why spirits are not the sum total of a Corp's magical defenses. In many ways, a Spirit is no more effective then an average security guard - just for a different plane. They still have to spot the target (its not automatic, yes sneaking skills works on Spirits), they still have to engage the target - or whatever their protocol is. Which is no faster then the DNI voice coms a security guard is going to be using. The Bio monitor will tell someone he is gone, just as fast as the mage knows his spirit is gone... And really, the Guard is more effective in that regard, as usually it's the Security Command that gets the alert when a guard goes down, where the mage has to rely that info to someone else (as an astrally projecting mage is actually really combat ineffective on meat targets.)

More importantly, have you ever tried?

Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

ShadowcatX

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #28 on: (17:57:57/01-04-18) »
A spirit can watch a door from the astral, making it impossible to interact with. Furthermore, if a bunch of highly logical mages who share information over the past 50 years coupled with over a hundred years of business management experience can't figure out how to say "watch that door and report to me immediately if someone enters it" without leaving loop holes, well then how the hell are the corps managing to accomplish anything?

Rosa

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Re: spirit as guard
« Reply #29 on: (20:14:35/01-09-18) »
By relying on complementary security measures as Reaver said, both in astral,  matrix and meatspace.
In regards to the example you gave. ...
( Spirit reporting back to exasperated security mage after break in  )
Mage: why the heck didn't you alert me,  someone broke in through this door,  you broke your contract!
Spirit: I did no such thing, noone has ENTERED this door,  look ( spirit knocks on door for effect ), it's perfectly empty noone inside this door.....oh there was someone who I thought was gonna enter the door but they opened it and went through the resulting hole in the wall or whatever you call it,  but you didn't tell to look for that so I thought it unimportant. .........

Again as Reaver said your standing with the spirit world is the best indicator of how willing any given spirit will be in regards to interpretating the order it's given to your or its own benefit.