[El Carnicero]

Page 206,  "...the maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill's rating."

Page 207, in the example, Full Deck--with a First Aid of 1 and a specialization in Combat Wounds--uses a rating 6 medkit to generate 6 hits on his First Aid test, resulting in 4 net after the threshold, and he heals his patient 4 boxes.  This is moar than his First Aid skill.

So what gives?  Is he substituting the Medkit's First Aid skill for his own, even though he's rolling his own skill check and using the medkit to assist?  When making the test do you use whichever is higher, the skill or the rating of the device?  Is the line on 206 a goof from before they put Limits in the game?  Am I missing something?

[Novocrane]

When making the test do you use whichever is higher, the skill or the rating of the device?  Is the line on 206 a goof from before they put Limits in the game?

I'd put money on these two being the best choices.

[El Carnicero]

It looks like it was mentioned in the errata thread, but no official word.

[Maelstrom]

Page 206,  "...the maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill's rating."

Page 207, in the example, Full Deck--with a First Aid of 1 and a specialization in Combat Wounds--uses a rating 6 medkit to generate 6 hits on his First Aid test, resulting in 4 net after the threshold, and he heals his patient 4 boxes.  This is moar than his First Aid skill.

So what gives?

Page 450, Medkit paragraph:  "Add the medkit's rating to your limit on First Aid kits."

I believe that means, for your example, that Full Deck with First Aid-1 and a rating 6 medkit has a limit of 7 successes.

[El Carnicero]

I was thinking that too, but in the example on 207, the text reads:

"...which means he has 12 dice limited by his Mental Limit of 5 plus the Medkit Rating of 6, totaling 11..."

So it seems as if the intention is for the Medkit to modify the Mental Limit, not the "meta-limit" worked into the text.  Which would mean he only got 1 box healed on the roll, not 4.  Broken editing is broken?

Edit - the rule as written, excluding the example, would suggest that a player character with a First Aid of 3 and a Logic of 3 would be better off letting a Rating 6 Medkit operate independently instead of working with it. (12 dice for the PC, max 3 hits healed, compared to 12 dice for the medkit autopilot, max 6 hits healed).  Working as intended?

[Agonar]

The paragraph that states that the max number of healable boxes being limited by the skill's rating seems to be a direct copy/paste from SR4a..

The way I do it in my game is to use the limit as the limit.  Medkits add their rating to the limit, so if your [Mental] is 5, and a Rating 4 medkit, you can heal up to 7 boxes with a good roll (9 - 2 for the threshold).  This seems to make the most sense, since SR5 introduced inherent and Gear limits.

[Godwyn]

It also still takes a decent skill to get the net hits necessary to heal many boxes, as the way I read it, the max boxes healed of skill rating is still after reaching the threshold.  Since the threshold is 2 for first aid, you need more than 3 hits to start to hit the skill limit.

This would make the person with first aid 3, logic 3 and a medkit capable of healing 3 boxes, requiring 5 hits, requiring just slightly better than average rolls; the most the medkit can heal is 4 boxes.  Any skill over 3 begins to see a box per skill point more possible, after a skill of 4, each box is more than the medkit is ever able to get since its tlimit is its rating. 

But yes, with low skill and logic, a R6 medkit can operate itself better than most people can. 

[Alchemyst]

It also still takes a decent skill to get the net hits necessary to heal many boxes, as the way I read it, the max boxes healed of skill rating is still after reaching the threshold.  Since the threshold is 2 for first aid, you need more than 3 hits to start to hit the skill limit.

This would make the person with first aid 3, logic 3 and a medkit capable of healing 3 boxes, requiring 5 hits, requiring just slightly better than average rolls; the most the medkit can heal is 4 boxes.  Any skill over 3 begins to see a box per skill point more possible, after a skill of 4, each box is more than the medkit is ever able to get since its tlimit is its rating. 

But yes, with low skill and logic, a R6 medkit can operate itself better than most people can.

I couldn't have said it any better myself and I tried! haha.

People can also spend edge.

[Top Dog]

Spending edge won't help though, because the skill limit isn't a proper SR5 limit, it's a seperate concept.

I still find it weird that low-skilled first aiders have no leg up over nonskilled first aiders for a wireless medkit; to me it should just add bonus dice (and do something else with the skill limit). But still, they do have the option to use it in non-wireless mode, which is nice because hackers and noise and stuff. So that's something.

[El Carnicero]

It also still takes a decent skill to get the net hits necessary to heal many boxes, as the way I read it, the max boxes healed of skill rating is still after reaching the threshold.  Since the threshold is 2 for first aid, you need more than 3 hits to start to hit the skill limit.

This would make the person with first aid 3, logic 3 and a medkit capable of healing 3 boxes, requiring 5 hits, requiring just slightly better than average rolls; the most the medkit can heal is 4 boxes.  Any skill over 3 begins to see a box per skill point more possible, after a skill of 4, each box is more than the medkit is ever able to get since its tlimit is its rating. 

But yes, with low skill and logic, a R6 medkit can operate itself better than most people can. 

Fair enough, and that's what we're going with at my table; my problem with this, though, is that this interpretation:

• Contradicts the example given on pp.207, where a character with a First Aid of 1 heals a target 4 boxes (after threshold),
  
• Introduces a "meta-limit" in a system with an already existing "Limit" mechanic, that is inconsistent with any rule anywhere else,
  
• Suggests that someone with average Logic and "Competent" skill in First Aid would be less effective working in tandem with a Medkit than the Medkit's autosoft could do on it's own,
• Makes a non-wireless Medkit functionally worthless to anyone who doesn't have a [Mental] Limit lower than their First Aid.

Given that the example on pp.207 reads out like every other example in the book, and is consistent with every other Test-vs-Limit in the book, I'm more inclined to think it's the correct interpretation.  That single sentence on pp.206 introduces a world of WTF to a system that is otherwise synergistic with everything else in SR5.

People can also spend edge.

Can they, though?  Edge is used to break "Limits," as in the [Mental] part of the (First Aid + Logic [Mental]) roll.  Using edge would only allow you to take the maximum number of successes allowed by your skill if you skill was higher than your [Mental] Limit.

The hard cap on healing in the rules description is not a "Limit" in that sense.  It's a limit, but not a "Limit."  Natch?

[Alchemyst]

Before I start, believe me, I agree 100% that there is a desperate need for Errata on this subject. However, looking purely at RAW (ignoring the fluff and examples of course) it is balanced and statistically the max healable limit isn't an issue that will realistically ever come up.

I still find it weird that low-skilled first aiders have no leg up over nonskilled first aiders for a wireless medkit; to me it should just add bonus dice (and do something else with the skill limit). But still, they do have the option to use it in non-wireless mode, which is nice because hackers and noise and stuff. So that's something.

No leg up? Someone who's taken a basic run of the mill CPR/First Responder session at a job is going to have a rating of 2 so I assume that's what you mean by low-skilled. However, even with a rating of 1 they have a leg up on nonskilled.
Using an average medkit (rating 3; reasoning below) and average human runner (attributes of 3 across the board):
• Medkit: DP = 6; Limit = 3; Heals minimum amount 31.96% of the time. Max heal of 1 (same).
• Skill rating 0 runner (watches ER Dramas): DP = 5; Limit = 7; Heals minimum amount 20.99% of the time. Max heal of 2 (0.41%) or 3 (only with edge).
• Skill rating 1 Runner (watched the 30 minute first aid vid for a job) : DP = 7; Limit = 7; Heals minimum amount 42.94% of the time. Max heal of 1 (same).
• Skill rating 2 Runner (took a very basic, day long, CPR/First Aid class): DP = 8; Limit = 7; Heals minimum amount 53.18% of the time. Max heal of 2 (25.86%).

Is an over double success rate not a leg up? Yes the possibility for an unskilled runner to heal more with edge using a high grade medkit is wonky and First Aid definitely needs an errata but the problems you speak of just don't exist.

Spending edge won't help though, because the skill limit isn't a proper SR5 limit, it's a seperate concept.

Can they, though?  Edge is used to break "Limits," as in the [Mental] part of the (First Aid + Logic [Mental]) roll.  Using edge would only allow you to take the maximum number of successes allowed by your skill if you skill was higher than your [Mental] Limit.

The hard cap on healing in the rules description is not a "Limit" in that sense.  It's a limit, but not a "Limit."  Natch?

Um...negate glitches, reroll a bad roll, add to the roll, burn for automatic 4. Take your pick. I'm very aware that edge doesn't boost the max heal, why would anyone? Edge is not just to boost limit. In order to actually look at something you need to look at all angles not just the ones that make your points look good. You need to look at the statistics too. Metahuman dicepools can already get ridiculously high thanks to the new skill ratings but we'll look at just the straight average.

Average Medkit is rating 3 considering most places don't have briefcase size trauma kits strapped to the wall for emergancies.
Average human runner is let's say Logic 3 First Aid 3 (so has taken a full EMR - CPR/First Responder class)

• The average medkit is going to have a DP of 6 and a limit of 3. The most the medkit can heal is 1 (3 hits) and that's only a 31.96% of the time. That means the kit doesn't to diddly squat 2 out of 3. We won't even calculate glitch rates.
• The average human runner on the other hand using the average medkit will have a DP of 9 and a limit of 7. The human will be healing at least 1 damage 62.28% of the time and at most 3 damage 14.48%. So not only is the person performing better than the equipment alone, but they can use a point of Edge to increase their chances of success or to prevent geeking their bud if they really mess up unlike the medkit.

Fair enough, and that's what we're going with at my table; my problem with this, though, is that this interpretation:
Contradicts the example given on pp.207, where a character with a First Aid of 1 heals a target 4 boxes (after threshold)

Ignore examples, samples, and fluff. In SR5, as with all editions, there are some serious miscalculations across the board; see the errata threads to see a lot of examples.

Introduces a "meta-limit" in a system with an already existing "Limit" mechanic, that is inconsistent with any rule anywhere else,

First Aid is not only used to heal damage. It has more than one use. For balance they decided to give one use a maximum effectiveness. Many systems do this, I don't see the issue other than you don't like being limited.

Suggests that someone with average Logic and "Competent" skill in First Aid would be less effective working in tandem with a Medkit than the Medkit's autosoft could do on it's own,

Completely untrue if you're also comparing to the average medkit (see above). If rating 6 then no duh, that's why they are made. Also keep in mind that someone with a skill of 4 is still going to be able to heal just as much as a medkit of 6. Perhaps less often but with specializations, gear, and edge it's not hard for a logic 3, rating 4 runner to beat a rating 6 medkit on auto.

Makes a non-wireless Medkit functionally worthless to anyone who doesn't have a [Mental] Limit lower than their First Aid.

I completely agree and personally I hate the Wireless bonuses they added in this edition. It makes the game feel really cheesy. I have already houseruled in my campaign that the wireless benefit of the medkit is that it allows someone to work remotely through it (with the normal penalties of course) but the other bonuses are just there no matter what.

[Godwyn]

I finally got a chance to actually check the example on p. 207.  I think it is both not as bad as people quote it to be, but even worse of an example.  In it, the runner has first aid of 1, but also a specialization.  So if the 4 healing hits are against the limit of 1 from skill, big error.  If it is against (1+2 specialization), then he should be able to heal 3 boxes, not 4, but its a minor error.  This makes it an even worse example though, as it is utilizing a specialization to do things that it may or may not do.

[El Carnicero]

Wow Alchemyst, fantastic post mate.  I seriously appreciate you taking the time to explain things out point by point, and even throw in some crunchy numbers to help things make sense.  I would give you some rep or karma if the board allowed it; instead, you get this:



So the consensus I'm getting--from both your post and reading around--is that when in doubt, slag the examples and stick to the blocks 'o text.  That's an easy enough rule of thumb that I can use, at least until an official errata rolls out that can clarify my suspicions one way or another.  Until then, though, I'm content to use the RAW regardless of the messy example.

That said, I do have a minor personal quibble not related to either the RAW or RAI.  I didn't omit other uses of Edge for the sake of making my argument look good (just an oversight), and I have no issues whatsoever with my character being "limited."   I have no dog in this fight, and am only hammering it out online because it's something I'm genuinely curious about.  My dick is no bigger if I'm right or wrong, and my GM gives two craps what the intarwebs say; he uses the books, makes judgement calls, and looks at official errata when they become official.  He's already stated we'll be using my skill as the limit, regardless of the discrepancy, because otherwise I could potentially heal someone 11 boxes in 33 seconds, and that is most definitely not Working As Intended (and no doubt why the skill "meta-limit" is in place).  Whatever the resolution to the discrepancy may be, neither he nor I are okay with a person going from dead to fully healed and unphased in half a minute, so it's a limit I'm perfectly happy to endure. 

Besides that little disagreement, though, thanks again for the effort you put into your post.  That was exactly what I hoped to get out of the discussion.

-El Carnicero, Resources E Street Samurai. 

[Michael Chandra]

Any runner worth its salt would use a Rating 6 Medkit though, since it lasts quite a while and rolls 12 dice autonomously.

Anyway, since Autonomous Medkits are a thing, I'm assuming they count as Skill Rating in First Aid. Especially since it says "and the device’s rating in place of her First Aid skill" for First Aid without the skill and with a Medkit. Note that in the defaulting scenario, you still take the -1 for defaulting. It sounds to me like the Medkit counts as both an increase in the Limit as well as a Skill Rating increase, which is the only reason why autonomous and defaulting First Aid with Medkits are even an option.

El Carnicero: Even if you have First Aid 6, Logic 6 and a Medkit rating 6, you have only 1/1172 chance to roll the 13+ hits required for healing 11 damage. You'd have to reroll with Edge at those 18 dice for 1/9 chance to heal 11 damage, and honestly if you're spending Edge and invested that heavily in being a healer, such rare-but-possible healings are well-deserved.

By the way, I agree with giving the dice modifier without the wireless as houserule, but autonomous functioning really should remain a wireless bonus.

[ZeConster]

Average Medkit is rating 3 considering most places don't have briefcase size trauma kits strapped to the wall for emergancies.

Maybe for normal folks, but a typical runner team will have 1 or 2 R6 Medkits because they're used to lugging around big things (also, an R6 Medkit will actually save you money after 45+ uses compared to an R3 Medkit, so the price difference isn't a big deterrent). What are your numbers if you use an R6 Medkit instead?