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"I want to play Shadowrun, but I only play d20."

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Elektrycerze3

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« Reply #15 on: <11-05-13/0753:11> »
I don't really see why people find it bad to have to learn a new system, since you can always just go only after the simple part and learn more if you get interested.

I really wish more people were that open minded.

But I can't really blame a guy working at a desk from dawn till dusk for sticking to one system they know by rote. Just seeing the 450+ p. behemoth that is SR5 might be enough for them to know that they don't want to learn it.

Suum cuique.
« Last Edit: <11-05-13/0756:55> by Elektrycerze3 »
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Elektrycerze3

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« Reply #16 on: <11-05-13/0755:16> »
I'd rather an empty dish than to play any of the garbage d20 systems that I have ever read.

Well, such an attitude might get you exactly that: an empty dish ;D
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SnackerBob

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« Reply #17 on: <11-05-13/0808:52> »
I'd rather an empty dish than to play any of the garbage d20 systems that I have ever read.

Well, such an attitude might get you exactly that: an empty dish ;D

At least I don't need to see the unholy child born of the obscenity that is d20.

Maybe I haven't pointed this out enough, but d20 is the worst thing to happen to RPGs this side of FATAL.

Elektrycerze3

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« Reply #18 on: <11-05-13/0820:02> »
Maybe I haven't pointed this out enough, but d20 is the worst thing to happen to RPGs this side of FATAL.

Dude, did Gygax kill someone you loved? O_o

Folks refuse to learn SR, you refuse to play d20... What advice do you expect?
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SnackerBob

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« Reply #19 on: <11-05-13/0845:41> »
I might point out that refusal to play one dice system is far less uptight than refusing to play any system except for one.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #20 on: <11-05-13/0848:19> »
What's your problem with d20, though?
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Elektrycerze3

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« Reply #21 on: <11-05-13/0851:54> »
I might point out that refusal to play one dice system is far less uptight than refusing to play any system except for one.

You want support: you have my support. It sucks to be in such a situation. I'm totally on your side.

You want help/advice on establishing a gaming group: compromise. Try introducing them to the setting through d20, make them love it, come to a cliff-hanger... and state, that to continue playing they have to convert to SR. You cannot make an omelet without breaking eggs.
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SnackerBob

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« Reply #22 on: <11-05-13/0939:05> »
What's your problem with d20, though?
I have yet to find any d20 that fits a kind of game that I want to play.

Sure, it's easy and popular. So is Nikki Minaj. But if I say "I don't enjoy the music of Nikki Minaj," people don't start inundating you with suggestions on how you should appreciate her music more.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #23 on: <11-05-13/0950:44> »
Merely not wanting to play the d20 systems you know doesn't necessarily make d20 the worst thing to happen to RPGs this side of FATAL, though. So what triggers the hyperbole? Is there a significant problem with d20 in itself, or with the d20 systems you know?
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Kincaid

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« Reply #24 on: <11-05-13/0957:25> »
Instead of trying to sell them on the system, sell them on the setting.  Watch Shadowrun-esque movies and talk about how so-and-so is exactly like [X] in Shadowrun.  Get them jazzed to play in a dystopian future where bullets and magic fly with equal abandon and then pitch the game as a means to an end.  Honestly, the anti-d20 pitch would become a very mathy, very boring Power Point presentation entitled, "The perils of static modifiers on iterative actions" or something similar.  No one wants to sit through that.
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SnackerBob

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« Reply #25 on: <11-05-13/1032:28> »
Merely not wanting to play the d20 systems you know doesn't necessarily make d20 the worst thing to happen to RPGs this side of FATAL, though. So what triggers the hyperbole? Is there a significant problem with d20 in itself, or with the d20 systems you know?
Yes, obviously that was hyperbole. My frustration with d20 is not with the system per se, but the fact that so many gamers view it as the Hammer for All Settings. The group I know love Shadowrun as a setting, but refused to  play unless it was adjusted to d20. I took a brief look at conversion and threw my hands up.

Like I said earlier, d20 isn't appropriate for any game that I want to play. I'm not enough of a mathematician to say why, but something about the single die vs. multiple dice seems off as far as verisimilitude goes. Don't even get me started on classes or Feats.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #26 on: <11-05-13/1038:30> »
Each system has different chances behind it, yes. If I didn't know any better I'd say they want to play d20 because at least then they understand the probability.
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Longshot23

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« Reply #27 on: <11-05-13/1137:49> »
Several years back FanPro (I think - could even have been FASA) did an April Fools' ad on their website for Shadowrun d20. It may even have been about a complete retooling of the game line. I fondly recall the collective <shock, gasp> of horror at the prospect.

BetaCAV

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« Reply #28 on: <11-05-13/1214:25> »
A single die system is can be more intuitive to new players, because it's easier to determine the probability of an action's success or failure. Needing a 16+ (or 5-) on a d20 gives you a 25% chance. A +2 gives you a 10% difference.
If they've never played a system with dice pools before, the whole system of hits, net hits, thresholds, and limits will be daunting, and building a character will be more frustrating than it needs to be if they can't reasonably judge how many points they will need in a skill to feel competent.
You (probably) take these things for granted, but they're not universal.
« Last Edit: <11-05-13/1216:10> by BetaCAV »

Mirikon

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« Reply #29 on: <11-05-13/1232:29> »
A single die system is can be more intuitive to new players, because it's easier to determine the probability of an action's success or failure. Needing a 16+ (or 5-) on a d20 gives you a 25% chance. A +2 gives you a 10% difference.
If they've never played a system with dice pools before, the whole system of hits, net hits, thresholds, and limits will be daunting, and building a character will be more frustrating than it needs to be if they can't reasonably judge how many points they will need in a skill to feel competent.
You (probably) take these things for granted, but they're not universal.
This. Exactly this. I can attest to some RL experience in this situation. I tried to get my D&D group into Shadowrun one of the times when it was my turn to take the DM's chair, and the look on their faces when they realized that I was the only person who had nearly enough d6s was pure culture shock. Afterall, in D&D you don't really need more than 6 or so d6s unless you're a spellcaster throwing things like Fireball around, or you're a high-level Rogue doing sneak attack. When they see me with 24d6, it blew their minds.

As far as Mutants and Masterminds is concerned, I've played it in several editions, and in several different campaign types (superhero, fantasy, sci-fi). It is a very adaptable system, and you can easily apply it to many different genres. Personally, I like Hero System better, for the more tactical feel, but again, being a points-based, effects-based system, it is something you can play in many different ways. I've never understood the hate some people have for d20, except by looking at indie music snobs who reflexively hate any band that signs to a label for 'selling out' and 'going mainstream'.
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