[thinklibertarian]

Say you are a humble motorcycle club, with 12 members, but no hacker. Your club is trying to escort some tourists to a secluded spot in order to give advice on fun activities in Redmond. The tourists mistake your offer as some sort of hostile action (perish the thought) and one of them is a hacker. Luckily, your gang has set up a network with defense in mind.

One member, Slicer (a great cook and expert slicer of vegetables, natch), has a Transys Avalon, a rating 6 commlink running the Encryption program, and a Willpower and Intuition of 4. His defense against most attacks is 11 dice. Taking Full Matrix Defense gives him 15 dice to defend.

A rating 6 device can have up to 18 devices slaved to it, so he slaves all of his club's Commlinks to it, as well as his personal equipment. Each club member's personal equipment is slaved to their individual Commlinks. In effect, Slicer's PAN is a master to all of the club members personal PANs, letting him defend them all.

The hacker, seeing this matrix structure with a matrix perception check, goes for what he thinks is a weak link: a member's Suzuki Mirage (not Slicer's). The rider has a Renraku Sensei, device rating 3, running Encryption, and its rider has average stats of 3. The hacker's Brute Force attack would normally hit the rider's PAN, defending with 7 dice (willpower 3 + firewall 4). Since the biker's PAN is slaved to Slicer's commlink, Slicer steps in, taking Full Matrix Defense, so he defends with 15 dice. If successful, great! If he fails to defend, the hacker marks the bike and the rider's commlink, since it is the master device of the bike, and Slicer's commlink, since it is the master of the biker's PAN. Such is life.

Slicer fires up a rating 4 jammer to help his matrix defenses, giving -4 to the rolls of the hacker. The jammer is wirelessly slaved to Slicer's PAN, and set up so the club members are unaffected.

Negotiations between the motorcycle club and tourists continue...

---

Having a PAN of PANs is a house rule, but it is a logical extension of the rules for PANs. The Rulebook, on page 233 states "If you want extra protection for some of your devices, you can slave them to your commlink or deck." Later on it says "Only devices can be slaves, masters, or part of a PAN."  A commlink is a device, so...

[edit] Another house rule is that a commlink can run common cyberprograms, but lacks the specialized hardware to run hacking cyberprograms. (It does not make sense to me that your core communication device can't run a handy program like Browse.)

[Kincaid]

As a brief aside, neither Slicer nor the bike (unless it's rigged, see. p. 269) can be running encryption because, even though it's common, it's still a cyberprogram and only decks have enough juice to run cyberprograms.  (see p. 243).

But in terms of the layering of PANs, this is exactly what my group does (including the wireless jammer as a panic button).

[GiraffeShaman]

I kind of wish it did run this way, but it appears it does not and you'd have to make it a house rule to do so.

Also, what about Hosts? What if in addition to the PAN daisy chain, Slicer's personae is parked inside some space he's rented in a Matrix club's high security host? Something we were discussing in another thread. It doesn't appear that there's a rule against it, at least yet.

[Psikerlord]

hmm so how does it work in teh rules? The attack on the rider's bike, which is part of the lower level Sensai PAN, would use the Sensai stat's to defend?

If the Sensai itself was attacked, it would get the benefit of Slicer's PAN?

I think that's fine. I kinda imagine it as each commlink only has so much processing power to go around and cant protect more than the 18 devices at once. It would be too easy if everyone could just get under the most powerful umbrella, the restriction is a balance tool.

[Xenon]

Slicer .. has a Transys Avalon, a rating 6 commlink running the Encryption program

Only cyberdecks can run cyberprograms, such as Encryption.

...and a Willpower and Intuition of 4. His defense against most attacks is 11 dice. Taking Full Matrix Defense gives him 15 dice to defend.

Matrix Full Defense let you defend devices that you own.
You can not use Matrix Full Defense to defend items you don't own
(such as a device slaved to your commlink that you don't own)
It is an interrupt action so you can take it at any time, but not if you are surprised
(in other words you need to be aware that you are being attacked)

A rating 6 device can have up to 18 devices slaved to it, so he slaves all of his club's Commlinks to it, as well as his personal equipment

This let the other bikers use Slicers rating 6 commlink and slicers intuition of 4 when defending their own commlinks from matrix attacks. They can also add their own willpower if they use the interrupt action full matrix defense.

Each club member's personal equipment is slaved to their individual Commlinks.

This let each member's personal equipment use their individual commlink firewall of 3 instead of their own device rating of 2.

In effect, Slicer's PAN is a master to all of the club members personal PANs, letting him defend them all.

Wait. What?
No. Slicer's commlink can slave up to 18 devices. Up to 18 devices can use Slicer's commlink's firewall.

The hacker, seeing this matrix structure with a matrix perception check, goes for what he thinks is a weak link: a member's Suzuki Mirage (not Slicer's). The rider has a Renraku Sensei, device rating 3, running Encryption, and its rider has average stats of 3. The hacker's Brute Force attack would normally hit the rider's PAN

You don't attack a PAN (that is so SR4)
You attack an individual device.
Suppose the Hacker is attacking a wireless grenade that Suzuki Mirage got in his belt and left wireless ON. The grenade is protected by a rating 3 firewall (the Renraku Sensi) and use Suzuki Mirage's Intuition if the hacker use hack on the fly. At this point Mirage is probably not aware that he is under attack and can not use the full matrix defense interrupt action (you can not use an interrupt action if you are surprised). Since hack on the fly will not alert the owner in any way unless the hacker fail he can use his next action to detonate the wireless grenade with Control Device  Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] v. Suzuki Mirage's Intuition + Firewall of 3. Wireless detonate a grenade is a free action so the hacker only require one mark and the detonation take one simple action. gg

... defending with 7 dice (willpower 3 + firewall 4). Since the biker's PAN is slaved to Slicer's commlink, Slicer steps in, taking Full Matrix Defense, so he defends with 15 dice. If successful, great! If he fails to defend, the hacker marks the bike and the rider's commlink, since it is the master device of the bike, and Slicer's commlink, since it is the master of the biker's PAN. Such is life.

Wait.. what??
No.
Slicer can only use full matrix defense when defending devices he owns. Not devices that are slaved to his commlink.


A bike got a device rating of 2 and a firewall of 2.
It can use intuition (or willpower depending on the nature of the attack) of it's owner instead of device rating
- in this case Suzuki Mirage's Intuition of 3
It can also use a firewall of a master device if you slave it
- in this case Suzuki Mirage's commlink firewall of 3
For a total of 6 dice

The owner of the bike can use full matrix defense interrupt action if he is not surprised which add willpower
- in this case Suzuki Mirage's willpower of maybe another 3
For a total of 9 dice

[SoulGambit]

I'm pretty sure that you "Own" Slaves, by definition of what a "Slave" is. I'm also sure its perfectly inline with the intent of PANs. So I disagree with that sentiment.

Commlinks can't run programs though, sadly.

[ZombieAcePilot]

You can slave a master to another master, the problem is you get marks on the master each time you mark the slave. Thus if a rating 6 comlink has a rating 3 slaved to it and the rating 3 slaves a smartgun, marking the smartgun marks the rating 3 comlink which defends against the attack. Success also marks the rating 6 comlink that wasn't defending, thus making it easier to attack the high righting comlink through its slave's slave.

[KarmaInferno]

I'm not finding in the rule where it explicitly says you can daisy chain master-slave connections.

Granted, I also can't find anything that explicitly says you CAN'T do it either.

Anyone else find more? It sounds like a good tactic but I'd prefer a stronger arguement than "It doesn't say I can't!"



-k

[Psikerlord]

The cant bit is the limit of device rating x3. You would include the daisy chained devices in the initial limit cap. It doesnt make sense for one commlink or deck or RCC to be able to protect an unlimited number of devices, which is what daisy chaining would allow. It's also contrary to balance for the same reason.

[Xenon]

I'm pretty sure that you "Own" Slaves, by definition of what a "Slave" is.

You don't automatically become the new owner of all devices that are slaved to a commlink you own.

"Slave" in this context is more like a client-server coupling.
Your hermetic magician friend invite your smartgun to take a mark on his rating 6 commlink.
You accept the mark and log in with your smartgun to your hermetic magician's rating 6 commlink.
You are still the owner of the smartgun.

I'm also sure its perfectly inline with the intent of PANs.

The definition of PAN in SR4 is very different from what a PAN is in SR5....
In SR5 you hack devices directly. You don't first need to hack a PAN or a commlink.


A rating 6 commlink can have up to 18 slaved devices.
A slaved device can be one of any 18 slaved devices to a rating 6 commlink.

[thinklibertarian]

Let me summarize the points so far...

Slicer can still slave the biker's Commlinks to his own. At that point, he would be able to defend their Commlinks with his 11 dice, and take FMD to get 15 dice.

Slicer's commlink has no direct master/slave relationship with the other gang members non-commlink devices so they only have six dice to defend, or nine if the individual biker used FMD. If they fail to defend, only their device and their commlink is marked.

Instead of slaving their Commlinks to Slicer's, the bikers should probably slave their most vulnerable device, for example, their bikes, in order to use Slicer's superior defenses. The question becomes: can Slicer use FMD to protect the slaved bikes even though he is not their Owner? It does not appear so using RAW because page 240 clearly states "Marks Required: Owner", and I could find no exceptions in the PAN rules in page 233.

Perhaps the real question is: can you slave a device that you don't Own, even if the owner invited you too? If you can't then this whole thread is moot.

Thanks!

[Xenon]

Slicer can still slave the biker's Commlinks to his own. At that point, he would be able to defend their Commlinks with his 11 dice

Yes

and take FMD to get 15 dice.

No. Slicer can only take Full Matrix Defense to defend devices he own.
He will have 15 dice to defend his own commlink and his own smartgun.

HE is not defending his partners commlink.
His partner is.
His partner get 11 dice when defending his own commlink.
His partner can use a full matrix defense interrupt action to add his willpower to his own defense roll.

Slicer's commlink has no direct master/slave relationship with the other gang members non-commlink devices so they only have six dice to defend, or nine if the individual biker used FMD. If they fail to defend, only their device and their commlink is marked.

Yes.

Instead of slaving their Commlinks to Slicer's, the bikers should probably slave their most vulnerable device, for example, their bikes, in order to use Slicer's superior defenses.

Yes. Now you get it. In SR4 you would defend the entire PAN with your commlink. In SR5 you need to defend individual devices. Slave important devices with low device rating to a device with a higher rating. Preferable operated by someone with high intuition (but since intuition is used in initiative even a lot of street sams or [pysical] adepts - that normally focus on physical stats - might have good intuition).

The question becomes: can Slicer use FMD to protect the slaved bikes even though he is not their Owner?

No. Each biker need to decide if he want to take the interrupt action Full Matrix Defense or not to defend their bikes.

Perhaps the real question is: can you slave a device that you don't Own, even if the owner invited you too?

Yes you can. But YOU don't defend it. The owner do. The owner just get to use your firewall in the roll. And your intuition (or willpower depending on the nature of the attack) when defending their own device. The owner of the device under attack must decide if he want to pay initiative to take the full matrix defense interrupt action.



If you really really really trust Slicer then you can make him the legitimate owner of all bikes

[thinklibertarian]

I was with you up until the last paragraph.

Slicer's commlink (firewall 6 + mental stats of 4) is the master of the gang member's bikes.

if a bike is attacked, then it is the device's owner, not Slicer, doing the defending. The owner can use Slicer's superior firewall and mental stats to defend. That is clear from the example on page 233.

Since it is the ganger making the defense test (even though he is using Slicer's stats) he can choose to take FMD, but would add his own willpower of 3 to the defense test.

[Wasabi]

Assuming Slicers relationship with the club doesn't prevent Slicer from spending the time (and succeeding on the appropriate test) to take ownership of all of the commlinks and (in effect) having Slicer's club be guests on the equipment Slicer enjoys ownership over... could Slicer then use Full Matrix Defense when a club-mate's commlink was attacked in the Matrix?

[thinklibertarian]

Yes.  If the club gave actual ownership of their Commlinks to Slicer, then he could use FMD to defend them.