[Mirikon]

From the way Caimbeul and Icewing were talking when he went to deliver his declaration of war, the way is shut. Perhaps the Shedim's home metaplane is simply too far from ours to allow them to cross over at this point, just as the Horrors are too far. If we posit that the Invae's home plane is closest to ours (though still alien enough that they require a host to maintain their presence here at this time), and the Shedim are further away, and the Horrors further still, then it makes sense that, as the mana level rises, connecting to those planes will become easier.

[I_V_Saur]

From the way Caimbeul and Icewing were talking when he went to deliver his declaration of war, the way is shut. Perhaps the Shedim's home metaplane is simply too far from ours to allow them to cross over at this point, just as the Horrors are too far. If we posit that the Invae's home plane is closest to ours (though still alien enough that they require a host to maintain their presence here at this time), and the Shedim are further away, and the Horrors further still, then it makes sense that, as the mana level rises, connecting to those planes will become easier.

So, we can gauge the Horrors by watching numbers of Shedim?

Something to consider - have Dragons actually been off-world?

[RHat]

From the way Caimbeul and Icewing were talking when he went to deliver his declaration of war, the way is shut. Perhaps the Shedim's home metaplane is simply too far from ours to allow them to cross over at this point, just as the Horrors are too far. If we posit that the Invae's home plane is closest to ours (though still alien enough that they require a host to maintain their presence here at this time), and the Shedim are further away, and the Horrors further still, then it makes sense that, as the mana level rises, connecting to those planes will become easier.

So, we can gauge the Horrors by watching numbers of Shedim?

Something to consider - have Dragons actually been off-world?

Off planet?  No.  Neither they nor the Immortal Elves are capable of leaving the Earth's electromagnetic field, as I understand it.  Off of the Earth's plane, on the other hand?  Certainly.

[I_V_Saur]

From the way Caimbeul and Icewing were talking when he went to deliver his declaration of war, the way is shut. Perhaps the Shedim's home metaplane is simply too far from ours to allow them to cross over at this point, just as the Horrors are too far. If we posit that the Invae's home plane is closest to ours (though still alien enough that they require a host to maintain their presence here at this time), and the Shedim are further away, and the Horrors further still, then it makes sense that, as the mana level rises, connecting to those planes will become easier.

So, we can gauge the Horrors by watching numbers of Shedim?

Something to consider - have Dragons actually been off-world?

Off planet?  No.  Neither they nor the Immortal Elves are capable of leaving the Earth's electromagnetic field, as I understand it.  Off of the Earth's plane, on the other hand?  Certainly.

Well, that's certainly one way to deal with Lowfyr. "Everyone, immediate evacuation! The earth's atmosphere is being poisoned by a virus." "But what about Herr Director?" "Dragons are immune. See the report?"

That's one way to make good use of a bioweapon. Make sure that CC has to get people away from the Greats. Then you 'accidentally' Thor Shot everything left, and in about a hundred years you come back to reclaim your Dragon-free planet.

[Nath]

Shedim are not minor Horrors. Like the Invae, they are a precursor. And they should not have shown up yet. Indeed, they wouldn't be here at all right now except Ghostwalker ripped his way through the Rift, which opened a path for them. When he sealed the rift, it stopped any new Shedim from coming over, for now.

Only the Invae was specifically said to take place before the Scourge and would be considered as a precusory event. Earthdawn history mentions no ther significant event of that kind before the arrical of the Horrors.

Physical undead creatures that Earthdawn makes mention have been nearly all created by Horrors: Cadaver Men (created by Horrors using their Animate Dead power), Ghouls ("created by the Horrors' arcane magic"), and other Horrors Constructs from Barsaive in Chaos (which can be considered off-limit for Shadowrun continuity).
The closest thing to shedim that Earthdawn has are Demiwraith, which are not described as Horror related, but nonetheless appeared "during the long years of the Scourge". However, they differ frm shedim as they were possessing living people and remained trapped into their body after their death.

I've still not ruled out the possibility that shedim ere something almost or completely unheard of during the Fourth Age (can't say about the Second Age) and that Ghostwalker broke the barrier that keep them at bay one way in his quest to bring back his loved one to life, and that Dunkelzahn broke it the other way to allow him to return.

[Mirikon]

Actually, Nath, the undead in Parlainth and Vivien(sp?) would be quite like Shedim. And the ones in what would now be Egypt, setting up shop in the tombs would be similar as well. AFAIK, they didn't have direct correlation to the Horrors, but as the mana cycle rose, they started showing up.

From the way Caimbeul and Icewing were talking when he went to deliver his declaration of war, the way is shut. Perhaps the Shedim's home metaplane is simply too far from ours to allow them to cross over at this point, just as the Horrors are too far. If we posit that the Invae's home plane is closest to ours (though still alien enough that they require a host to maintain their presence here at this time), and the Shedim are further away, and the Horrors further still, then it makes sense that, as the mana level rises, connecting to those planes will become easier.

So, we can gauge the Horrors by watching numbers of Shedim?

Something to consider - have Dragons actually been off-world?

Off planet?  No.  Neither they nor the Immortal Elves are capable of leaving the Earth's electromagnetic field, as I understand it.  Off of the Earth's plane, on the other hand?  Certainly.

Not quite true. The Immortal Elves can go anywhere they please, but like all mages, their powers will suffer in the mana void outside the Gaiasphere. With Dragons, it is another story, as they are dual-natured, and the mana void will be a Bad Thing for them, unless they have sufficient astral armor (or hardened astral armor) to withstand the void. As it stands, I believe Lofwyr and Hestaby could survive a trip into space, as they both have Hardened Mystic Armor 20, so a Void of -12 (deep space) wouldn't harm them at all.

And yes, that means that there's always a chance that the picture of dragon bones on Mars from the Big D's will is legit. Don't know about the pyramid, though.

[rfv855]

Not quite true. The Immortal Elves can go anywhere they please, but like all mages, their powers will suffer in the mana void outside the Gaiasphere. With Dragons, it is another story, as they are dual-natured, and the mana void will be a Bad Thing for them, unless they have sufficient astral armor (or hardened astral armor) to withstand the void. As it stands, I believe Lofwyr and Hestaby could survive a trip into space, as they both have Hardened Mystic Armor 20, so a Void of -12 (deep space) wouldn't harm them at all.

And yes, that means that there's always a chance that the picture of dragon bones on Mars from the Big D's will is legit. Don't know about the pyramid, though.

Why would they need to sleep during 5th world though (and risk being killed by dragon hunters), if they can survive mana void.

[Nath]

Actually, Nath, the undead in Parlainth and Vivien(sp?) would be quite like Shedim. And the ones in what would now be Egypt, setting up shop in the tombs would be similar as well. AFAIK, they didn't have direct correlation to the Horrors, but as the mana cycle rose, they started showing up.

Actually, Nath, the undead in Parlainth and Vivien(sp?) would be quite like Shedim. And the ones in what would now be Egypt, setting up shop in the tombs would be similar as well. AFAIK, they didn't have direct correlation to the Horrors, but as the mana cycle rose, they started showing up.

The stats given for Parlainth undead or undead-like creatures are either Cadaver Men or Demiwraith. As said above, Cadaver Men were created by Horrors, and Demiwraiths "appeared during the years of the Scourge". For what I remember, Vivane was a pretty lively city.

That doesn't mean demiwraith and/or shedim don't require a given mana level and their presence isn't telling something about it. I'm just saying it may not be considered as good as an indicator as the Invae has been held for in the Fourth and Sixth Age (especially more if they don't appear before the Horrors actually do). It's not even sure that shedim were seen during the Fourth Age, and they only appeared in the Sixth Age after some really heavy magic performed by Dunkelzahn that was precisely intended to mess with mana level and what can or cannot enter our world.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Not quite true. The Immortal Elves can go anywhere they please, but like all mages, their powers will suffer in the mana void outside the Gaiasphere. With Dragons, it is another story, as they are dual-natured, and the mana void will be a Bad Thing for them, unless they have sufficient astral armor (or hardened astral armor) to withstand the void. As it stands, I believe Lofwyr and Hestaby could survive a trip into space, as they both have Hardened Mystic Armor 20, so a Void of -12 (deep space) wouldn't harm them at all.

And yes, that means that there's always a chance that the picture of dragon bones on Mars from the Big D's will is legit. Don't know about the pyramid, though.

Why would they need to sleep during 5th world though (and risk being killed by dragon hunters), if they can survive mana void.

For one thing, it's not quite a void.  There is mana out there, but it is more accurately called a warp.  It would be like trying to survive a solar corona discharge event occurring 24 hours a day.  Hardened astral armor 20 could handle it, but it would likely be unpleasant and most certainly cause long term problems, making long term survival extremely unlikely.

During the 5th age, it wasn't that the mana was warped on Earth, it was almost absent.  Since dragons are highly magical (dual natured, and all that) they would be very weak and sluggish, and vulnerable.  Hibernating and hiding out would be the optimal survival strategy.

[Parker]

  Thus, I submit my vote for Dragons being 'Ancient Astronauts'.  Why not, have their ancestors travel here from a defunct home-world, with a stop-over at Mars, (assuming that the 4th planet was habitable at that time), and a landing onto Earth.  Whose biosphere would allow them to hold ground against the 'Enemy'!  (insert dramatic score)  And since over 60% of the planet is covered with water, that may explain why none of us newer Named Races have located it. (their space-ship, I mean)
  And here's the kicker   What if the Sea-Wyrm is an inherited as well as sub-racial role?  If she is the current guardian of the, (wait for it), Dragons' most valuable site, the remnant{s} of their 'ark' (as well as the eggs); then perhaps then this would add a new wrinkle in the events of the Dragon Civil War as its been described.

[The_Gun_Nut]

I'm more in favor of "ancient ASTRALnauts" than astronauts.  It seems far more likely.  A few might have tried entering the astral space around Mars (Mars used to be wet, you know) instead of Earth.  Or they might have been exploring.

[Red Canti]

Try Chunky Salsa with a nuke.

Good luck finding a space strong enough to contain the blast that is also big enough for the draconic target. Even if you find such a location, good luck luring the big nasty in there.

How about said dragon's stomach.

Though good luck getting it in there intact, and surviving the attempt.

[Bull]

I've got to ask this, how exactly did the Bid D's death delay the horrors. I see how it can speed up our development with all the money his will throws around, but the only delay I can think of was Harlequin.

Long story short (and greatly simpified), Dunklezahn's spirit (Bonded to a cyberzombie body and wielding a huge magical artifact like a hammer) is roaming the metaplanes and "flattening" any place where the magic starts to spike up, threatening to weaken the boundries between our realm and the realm of the GOO's.

Bull

[CanRay]

Long story short (and greatly simpified), Dunklezahn's spirit (Bonded to a cyberzombie body and wielding a huge magical artifact like a hammer) is roaming the metaplanes and "flattening" any place where the magic starts to spike up, threatening to weaken the boundries between our realm and the realm of the GOO's.

Bull

DUNKIE SMASH!!!

[DamienHollow]

That's just wrong... Funny, but wrong.