[DarkLloyd]

What is the highest force a caster can Bind.  I know it can't go over twice your magic. but is there a limit to what you can summon?

     Let me give you the example. A mage with 7 magic rating summons a force 14 spirit. Is it possible to bind this beast?
((And here's where 4th ed F's stuff up again))

     A point was brought up that it wouldn't last long enough to be bound.
Spirits now only last 12 hrs,(for everyone not just shams) sun-up to sun-down, or Vice-versa, and the ritual binding would take 1 hr per force pt (14 hrs).
Does this make it impossible to bind over force 12 spirits? is there some line of rules i'm missing?

Thanks for your help this will determine if i have to make a new character btw. 

[Walks Through Walls]

It could be a mechanic to make it so the ultra high level spirits aren't bound into long term service to mages no matter what.
The other thing to think about is that even if you could attempt to bind said spirit it would be rolling 28 dice against you. So if you have a magic 7, binding 6, binding focus level 6 and power focus level 6 (which would require a lot of playing and karma to achieve and bind) you would only be rolling 25 dice so you are going into it down 3. If you have a starting character with a magic 7 binding 6 and the two above focuses at 3 this would give you 19 dice.

On average the spirit will be getting about 8-10 successes which means you are then resisting a drain value of 16-20 physical since it is over your magic rating. So even if you somehow managed to get 1 net success odds are you aren't going to live long enough to get to tell it what the service is you want to do it especially since if you are knocked out the spirit will probably attack you and finish the job. (maybe creating a new free spirit.)

[Doc Chaos]

Does this make it impossible to bind over force 12 spirits? is there some line of rules i'm missing?

That is kind of a grey area. Some are of the opinion that a spirit which is in the process of being bound wouldn't disappear, others say after 12 hours its gone, no matter what, if not bound by then. If we don't get clarification on this one from "above", its really your GM deciding.

[Bradd]

binding focus level 6 and power focus level 6

You can only apply one focus to any given roll, so you'd be down even more against that spirit.

[voydangel]

I could have sworn that I read somewhere that if you're in the middle of trying to bind a spirit, it wont disappear as normal, and it is forced to remain just long enough to see if the binding is successful or not. If the binding fails for any reason (caster falls asleep etc) or if the roll fails, then it immediately leaves. I just cant seem to relocate the passage where it says that =(

[Walks Through Walls]

Even if it does stay around unless it is a character with a lot of karma the character isn't going to succeed in binding it and more than likely won't survive the binding process so I think it is a bit of a moot point if you can do it or not unless this is somehow going to be a final act of suicide to try and do it. Then the results may very well include a new free spirit in the world since it comments that the higher force spirits are more likely to go free when given the chance or is this the whole point of the exercise?

[Qemuel]

Assuming it sticks around throughout the binding process, what if you used Edge?  I know you could at least get the successes with Edge, but can you use Edge to mitigate drain damage, too?  (sorry, don't have my book in front of me to double check).

[Walks Through Walls]

Any test you roll you can use edge on, but then you would need more edge to be able to spend it on the initial roll and then again on the drain test. Because the problem really becomes for the drain test if the spirit averages 1 success per 3 dice say that is 9 successes which makes the DV 18 physical. So now you have to soak 9 of that just to barely stay conscious. If you have a willpower and other appropriate attribute at 6 each that is 12 dice so you need 9 of the 12 dice to be successes a long shot to say the least even with spending edge to help you out

[Casazil]

For the record this is from my game this past saturday.

Of the 6 people that come regularly 1 had to work 1 had family duties and 1 said he forgot (never mind he's been comeing every 2 weeks for like 3 years).

As the only ones to show Lloyd's character and Kali's character would have been the only ones going in as the hacker would have needed to be in the matrix doing his thing to help. It was BEFORE the game started the Lloyd tried to see if he could bring in some heavy back up so they could finish the run.

THIS is not your normal Shadowrun game I am running my players in all the old published mods as such rules have ben modified back to 2nd edition in some places to better handle the mods so there is less overhauling for me to do to the mods but I am trying to use as much of 4th as I can.

His character is a level 2 initiate he did use edge he has a power foci (3 I think) no summoning foci yet.

I saw no problem saying the spirit stuck around just outta interest of really I gotta see if you can do this! 

Sadly I did roll well (for once) lately my rolls have sucked when rolling against them  BUT as I said Lloyd it was to me something you were looking to do BEFORE the game started I WILL NOT HOLD you to dieing you DO NOT need to make a new character.

Alex on the other hand ...... oh wait thats not public yet (Yes I know I just went there that's how annoyed I am at this point!)

[Magus]

Well in one of the Dev Chats with Peter and Jeniffer hosting this came up but with Sprites. It was said that during the binding processes the time frame of Dawn to Dusk or in a Sprites case 8 hrs did not apply. The Binding/Compiling Ritual superseded that.

[Qemuel]

Well in one of the Dev Chats with Peter and Jeniffer hosting this came up but with Sprites. It was said that during the binding processes the time frame of Dawn to Dusk or in a Sprites case 8 hrs did not apply. The Binding/Compiling Ritual superseded that.

That is clearly written in the SR4A book on p.241 (registering sprites)

Though I would assume the same principle applies to Binding Spirits, it is not spelled out as so in the main rules so is open to interpretation.  As my group's GM, I will allow Binding past the sunset/sunrise time as long as the binding ritual has been started.  It has been my perception that the rules have been streamlined to use the same concepts for similar purposes, so that makes sense to me.

[voydangel]

Hmm, yea, I just double checked about that p241 sprites thing. I wonder if that's the thing that I know I saw, but couldn't find. I could have sworn I saw it say the same thing about spirits, but it's entirely possible I read that and just mentally applied it to spirits as well since they are, like Qemual said, basically the same (systematically speaking).

[anotherJack]

Note that sun-up to sun down can make far more (or less) than 12 hours.