[JmOz01]

Character has two qualities


Sharpshooter
Strive for perfection

As a free action he does a called shot

Would it be -0 or -1 (depends on when you do division)

[Kiirnodel]

Personally, as a GM, I don't allow taking both qualities. The combination of bonuses and penalties results in a very awkward situation where the downsides nearly negate one-another.

If I remember correctly, the downside for those qualities are a) You must always make Called Shots, and b) you take a -1 penalty on non-Called Shots.

If I absolutely had to allow both qualities, the final penalty would be -1 (reducing the penalty by 2 and then halving it.) Otherwise the final combination is: You take no penalty on making Called Shots, but take a -1 penalty on non-Called Shots, which you can't make.

Too much cheese for me, thank you.

[Reaver]

Yea... have to agree with Kiirnodel.

Cheese is good on noodles and sandwiches... not on characters...

[Jack_Spade]

If you want to waste 16 starting-karma on free called shots...

Strive For Perfection says it changes the called shot penalty from -4 to -2 (there is nothing said about halving the penalty), Sharpshooter decreases the penalty by 2.
So there is no order of operations problem since there is no division involved. 

Also, the penalty of Sharpshooter is not negated by Strive for Perfection since the character can still use suppressive fire and is allowed to refrain from using called shots if he has a job where called shots would be counter productive.

[Marcus]

I find myself agreeing with Jack.
Though I would certainly understand disallowing.

[Kiirnodel]

Strive For Perfection says it changes the called shot penalty from -4 to -2 (there is nothing said about halving the penalty), Sharpshooter decreases the penalty by 2.
So there is no order of operations problem since there is no division involved. 

Not quite, the exact text of Strive for Perfection (now that I'm with books) is: "Halve the cost of all Called Shots, meaning they impose only a –2 dice pool penalty instead of –4. The Called Shot still costs a Free Action."

Also, the penalty of Sharpshooter is not negated by Strive for Perfection since the character can still use suppressive fire and is allowed to refrain from using called shots if he has a job where called shots would be counter productive.

Since the full disadvantage literally states that the character "seeks to make every shot count" I know that I wouldn't let someone with that quality make non-called shots without having a very good reason.


The bonus for Sharpshooter is that "Penalties for Called Shots are decreased by 2," which coupled with "Halve the cost of all Called Shots" means that we do have a potential Order of Operations conundrum. Like I said before, my take is that the penalty gets reduced (Sharpshooter), and then the cost for using it gets halved (Strive for Perfection). Otherwise the combination results in: you take no penalties for standard Called Shots, but you take a -1 for not using a Called Shot, but you always make Called Shots unless it's "not practical."

My solution is to not allow the combination, and usually I just encourage people to take Sharpshooter, as it is from the more recently published source. Assassin's Primer (Strive for Perfection) was produced before Run & Gun, and clearly doesn't take into account the additional non-standard Called Shots. Sharpshooter is from Run & Gun, and clearly does factor that in. Plus the penalty for Sharpshooter is much more clearly defined and less open to interpretation for where it applies than "where Called Shots would not be practical."

[fseperent]

Ugh, this argument again.
I'm convinced it pops up every couple of months.

How about this for a bit of house ruling for these qualities:
A character with both qualities need a Composure (4) to use non-called shots.
A character with only Strive for Perfection needs a Composure (3) for non- called shots.
The order for calculating the penalty is Sharpshooter then Strive for Perfection.

The reason for the Composure rolls is based on how Strive for Perfection is worded.
The character is conditioned to focus on only called shots.
To go against that training would require some mental work.
Did consider LOG + WIL for the rolls, but Composure at least appears to be the right way to go.

[Jack_Spade]

@Kiirnodel
That might be a translation issue. I've only access to the German Assassin's Primer:

"Der Charakter erleidet nur einen Würfelpoolmodifikator von -2 statt -4 für Angesagte Ziele. Das Ansagen des Ziels erfordert immer noch eine Freie Handlung. Nachteile: Die gewöhnlichen Schüsse auf die Mitte des Ziels sind unter der Würde des Assassinen. Er will, dass jeder Schuss zählt, egal, wie viele Kugeln er noch hat. Der Charakter muss immer Ziele Ansagen, wenn er nicht Sperrfeuer schießt oder eine Aufgabe hat, bei der gezielte Schüsse kontraproduktiv wären."

"The character only suffers a dicepool modificator of -2 instead of -4 for Called Shots."

Regarding the drawback: Sure, feel free to ignore the printed rules.

[Kiirnodel]

Apparently the German translation changed the wording, yeah. Doesn't change my opinion on my own ruling, though. Nor my dislike for the ambiguous nature of the disadvantage...

Exactly what printed rule are you claiming I'm trying to ignore?

The only comments I've made regarding the drawback is about the restriction of always Called Shots except "where Called Shots would not be practical" or by Google translate from that German phrasing: "has a task where targeted shots would be counterproductive"
And all I said was that the phrasing there is very vague, and that I would be very strict about when I would allow a character to forego making an attack with a Called Shot. I can't even think of a situation where they wouldn't have some sort of advantage for making it a Called Shot, so the only example would be a Full Auto Suppressing Fire, which is very out-of-character for a Sniper-style (which is what this quality is geared toward).

[UnLimiTeD]

I see no reason to not stack them. It's no more cheese than any cybered combat adept out there.
Main problem is that the "aim for Vitals" would be a permanent choice, as if that wasn't there, you could make a superb trickshot character - So a minimum -1 penalty sounds fine to me as well; it wouldn't make a difference on the fun stuff.
Though the german text is a bit weird in that it seemingly doesn't acknowledge the existence of higher penalty called shots. In the original text, halving it after the -2 would actually make it a bit more of a tradeoff, but you could still reduce a -8 to a -3.
I actually think these qualities would be neat for a melee character, leaving aside the fluff only mentioning guns.
That kind of flourish would sure add to recognition.

[Jack_Spade]

Assassin's Primer is from the early transition between SR4 and SR5 and even older than Run&Gun - they simply didn't have the rules yet with called shots with higher modifiers.

But even even if you stay by the English rules, it's a simple matter of following mathematical rules: First you do multiplications/divisions then sums or subtractions (In German it's called "Punkt vor Strich" i.e. "Dots before lines.")
So halving happens before you subtract.

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, I am both aware, and german.
However, if they did it the other way around, it would leave most called shots at a -1, which sounds like a fair compromise to me.
In logic that order's not necessarily as clear cut, but in any case, if the result is just permanent "target vitals", they might as well create a +2 DV quality that doesn't stack. It feels a bit ... uninspiring?

[FancyDerek]

Assassin's Primer is from the early transition between SR4 and SR5 and even older than Run&Gun - they simply didn't have the rules yet with called shots with higher modifiers.

But even even if you stay by the English rules, it's a simple matter of following mathematical rules: First you do multiplications/divisions then sums or subtractions (In German it's called "Punkt vor Strich" i.e. "Dots before lines.")
So halving happens before you subtract.

In English it's PEMDAS or BODAS depending on whether your American or British.

RAW-players need GM approval- so if you don't like it, don't allow it at your table.

RAW- Double Tap is -4 modifier therefore a player could argue that with the two qualities and ADPS ammo they can double tap to their hearts content with no penalty- which is why every GM should have a problem with this combo.

[grffnhwk]

If I were GM and allowed both qualities on one character, I'd rule that Called Shot happens before Strive for Perfection.  So the basic Called shots would be reduced down to -1 dice (4 base penalty -2 for Sharpshooter = 2 penalty/2 = 1 penalty) instead of no penalty.  So now your Eye called shot would be -4 dice (10 base penalty -2 for Sharpshooter = 8 penalty/2 for Strive for Perfection = 4 penalty) with both.  Still really good, but not completely broken.

I literally can't make a character without Sharpshooter.  For 4 Karma it's just good.  Whereas Strive for Perfection seems overpriced compared to Sharpshooter.  The only time it really makes a difference is the specific body hit locations that are -8+ dice.  Eye Called shot is -8 dice with Sharpshooter, but -5 with Strive for Perfection.  3 dice still isn't worth the cost to me when you can choose other called shot options with a lower penalty. 

More Sharpshooter fawning... let's say we're running with 18 dice with Automatics before everything kicks in.  NON-Called Shots with all RANGED weapons are at -1 dice.  All ranged called shots are at a -2 dice now though, using your base 18 dice.  So a Vitals Called shot is now rolling with 16 dice for +2 DV and your normal shots are at 17 dice.  Considering you added +2 DV which will require an average of 6 more soak dice for them to cover, I think it's worth it.  Plus you can do things like:

With Sharpshooter
(-2 dice) Shake up + Stick n Shock rounds = Opponent loses 10 initiative
(-2 dice) Harder knock + Gel rounds = You don't have to carry normal ammo anymore, just hit em where it hurts with Gel
(-2 dice) Vitals + Any rounds = +2 DV
(-2 dice) Bulls-Eye Double Tap/Burst + APDS rounds + Gun with -2 base AP and SA/burst = 10 AP burst
(-2 dice) Shredded Flesh + Flechette round = Target bleeds out over time

I'm having a lot of fun with:
Ares Alpha (11P v -2AP) + Flechette (+2DV +5AP) + Vitals (+2DV) + Aimed Burst (+1DV) = 16P v+3AP  You can also use Enhanced Suppression and it tears up pretty good.
Makes me think of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzliqFzK36E