[TwilightVulpine]

I have been looking all over the rules in Data Trails and I can't seem to find the rules to get yourself a Host (like you could get a Nexus in SR4)

I understand that it's different now and it involves the digital wonderland of the Foundation, as well that hosting something illegal requires some sneaky shenanigans (but what nice shiny thing doesn't?), but how do you do that? Can you get to the Foundation and Grow a Host that isn't there?

What about buying one? Not only Jackpoint managed it (Jackpoint being Jackpoint), it seems pretty small business can have their own on the bottom of the grid. But I didn't find anything on what it costs.

[ScytheKnight]

I think that's partially because the only way it would be remotely relevant, would be for if an AI wanted a Host as it's home rather than a device.

[LordGrizzle]

I think that's partially because the only way it would be remotely relevant, would be for if an AI wanted a Host as it's home rather than a device.

Not true. My hacker has been thinking about using a host for hacking. Like in 4E it was also very  viable to run your hacking programs from a nexus for the additional power.

Where you are right though is that by the book a host can't hack so it would require house rules eitherway.

[TwilightVulpine]

I think that's partially because the only way it would be remotely relevant, would be for if an AI wanted a Host as it's home rather than a device.

One of my players is already taking the Online Fame quality from Data Trails to be a blogger and a matrix-oriented performer. It would make a lot of sense for them to have a host they can shape as they see fit, where they keep their media for the public and where their community of fans dwells.

Anyone interested in forming a private matrix community or a datahaven would have reasons to have a host, and by itself that brings a number of plot opportunities, as other people may be interested in discovering who is behind it or even just destroy it. The act of keeping their own Host would also add more reasons for going into the Foundation, which is a challenge of its own. It can also be useful for businesses, which a player can own as part of the Lifestyle Options introduced by Run Faster.

[ScytheKnight]

good points

[Senko]

Especially since if you get recognised in real life you have the potential to have your fan call the cops/attack you for impersonating their idol (weird reaction since if people online recognise you from offline fame don't trash your website.) so you would need something to run those online functions from.

[Marcus]

Core Rule page 219. Data trails 86. A host is fairly nebulous concept, in 5th. They don't seem to be directly tied to a physical box. My feeling is that a host is really more of a cross between a Mega-relational database and an Mega-scale art project. I think a corp scale host is probably run on a sever farm scale and I'm not all convinced you can use one for hacking, and I don't think they can be stated in a fashion that makes sense with a deck.

Getting a host to setup something like your blogger's website should certainly be possible But I haven't found costing for it anywhere.

[TwilightVulpine]

I got the sense the new Matrix is an unified system. It seems it might be either that everything is on a central, vastly powerful hardware, or everything is decentralized and running everywhere. In the sense that you can't just point to a server and say "this is the NeoNET host", like they are virtual machines that move and change as needed. This might be why you can Grow them via the Matrix itself. You are just telling the Foundation system to give them more resources. And considering the Foundation can afford having these uber powerful, extremely immersive dreams of electric sheep, it's an insanely powerful system. It might be virtually limitless.

Technomancer shenanigans must be involved, I'm sure of it. And they might have been on drugs. The Foundation is just too weird.

But hacking with a host really doesn't seem likely, unless you are hacking someone breaking into it.

[LordGrizzle]

Well, reading the sections about grids and such I presume a grid is a network of server farms with really strong hardware and a network of transmitters through which you connect to the grid. Everything that happens on that grid is inside these server farms. They would probably act somewhat like our modern day cloud-services (which are mos likely an inspiration of the new matrix). All stuff that happens inside that server farm happens on one or multiple boxes and is replicated across at least two to three server farms, just in case one goes up in smoke. So in essence, a host would just be a service you can rent from the organization that owns the grid you want the host to be on. As soon as you have that contract the foundation of your host is created and you can go there and start growing that thing. The only question is now, what does that contract cost. I just wish there were even remote guidelines of what the costs are, for running such a system.

[korusef]

Or you should be able to open a foundation on public grid by yourself. You could always buy registration for the more prestige grids later.

[Malevolence]

I think of Grids (and the Hosts that populate them) as if SETI@Home hosted themselves at Amazon's AWS, and Amazon merged with AOL and AT&T. The core of the Host (the Foundation) is distributed across hardware owned by your provider (whoever owns the Grid your host is on - hosts exist on specific grids). They provide connectivity (wireless and backbone - AT&T); services, content,  and experience (AOL); and compute power (Amazon AWS). But in addition to using their own compute power and bandwidth, every device also helps (SETI@Home or Bittorrent). Since almost everything is a device and has a processor, storage, and wireless, this adds up. AIs take advantage of this when they Emulate and since the Grid doesn't own the resources they are borrowing, they let it slide for the most part - especially since they effectively do the same to provide more power for hosts, etc.


Using what is today referred to as Fully Homomorphic Encryption, these devices can manipulate and process sensitive data without ever having it revealed to them, so it doesn't compromise the integrity of the host to have its functions distributed across unsecured hardware.


As for Foundations, I figure these are such massive conglomerations of data and compute power (not to mention learning algorithms) that they are effectively pre-sentient. So, taking that they are processing on highly parallel neural networks that have many significant parallels to the human brain, it isn't absurd to think that they would exist in a more or less constant state of REM like dreaming. Add to this that you are effectively mind melding with them via a direct neural interface, and YOUR sub-conscious would also help flavor how this all appears to you. You are drinking from a firehose and your brain is doing its best to make some modicum of sense of this over-stimulation.


So, yes, it's fantastical, but I'm perfectly happy to suspend my disbelief because Foundations are pretty awesome.


At least, that's my take.

[TwilightVulpine]

Well, since there is no official reference, what do you think a host ought to cost? Something like a SR4 Nexus? A monthly Lifestyle cost, maybe including a low Rating one with Commercial lifestyles? How much?

I'm considering allowing a Host be grown from scratch on the Foundation, but by being unregistered, it may invite G-Men attacks, sooner the better the Grid is. The public grid might be mostly safe for that but the host rating will have a pretty low ceiling. Still not sure about the numbers, though.

And what about local servers, like the wired ones some corps use? What does that cost?

[brasso]

I would guess at about 4% equivalent deck cost per month? You'd need to buy IC as well. I'm not sure if players would really want to buy a host, or just a part of one, eg. a blogger would just be one of 1000's on a blogging host, I doubt he'd want to go to the trouble of buying a host just for a blog. The bunked up cost would be storage probably, which would be more the realms of megacorps, rather than players. Legality is a point to consider - do you hook up a SIN/ licence to a host, or go for illegal space sold by hackers?

I'm on about the same page as Malevolence re grids - equivalent to a MAN (metropolitan area network), which in the 2075 virtual world would just be one huge SAN. Although an Ares host would be on the Ares grid, it wouldn't necessarily be tied to any one piece of hardware or location, there would be small linked areas of it over hundreds of physical servers all over the world. Jumping grids would be like VPNing into another MAN maybe.

Just my 2c

[Senko]

Not the most up to date on matrix issues but I think the lifestyles as cost could work quite well with a bit of reflavoring e.g.

Street
N/A or Hacked host only useable for a period of up to X time (GM discretion) then the security staff erase whatever you did and close the loophole you used to get in. Probably needs some sort of hacking check to do basically this isn't intended for a permanent host use your just doing the equivilent of spraypainting a message on someone elses storefront window (not good for a regular audience but useable as a warning that someone needs to lay low).

Sample Appearance: Messages or icons inserted into someone elses host.
Typical Users: Hackers
Cost: None

Squatter
The cheapest permanent hosts these are no frills, bare bones servers for people who wish to supply information to an audience. Typically used by small clubs or other institutions to stay in touch. These contain visual and auditory information but no touch or smell and have limited modification options as defined by the Grid supplying the host e.g. a typical restriction is no defamatory content about the corporation supplying it. They will typically be located in out of the way areas where people are only likely to find them if they know what they're after and as such offer limited advertising potential, these hosts are also typically rented from a host hosting site and as such will have strict rules on what is appropriate content to post.

Sample Apperance: A one room apartment with a calender by the door showing upcoming events and a bookshelf with information on the club interests.
Typical Users: Small clubs and private individuals.
Cost: 500 nuyen a month.

Low
A step up from the most basic version these hosts provide the option of full simsense immersion so long as the user has a DNI or other means of experiencing it. The amount of space available is still limited this is a more popular option for various government or private organisations wishing to supply its members a place to indulge in hobbies or interests. These also tend to be accessed via the organization supplying them for example a university club host would be accessed via the university supplying it and as such they have limited presence in the wider grid. However as these are typically provided via a parent organization they are still required to meet any rules and regulations of said parent organization.

A few startup or small businesses also use these kinds of hosts as their virtual stores. However the majority prefer to purchase the next level up as these low level hosts are often situated either in a physical equivilent e.g over your storefront or in the lower levels of the grid with limited ability to draw in new customers.

Sample Apperance: A small movie complex with screens showing various horror movies from the 20th century complete with virutal snacks and rooms for members to discuss the merits of them set up by a university horror movie club.
Typical Users: Organizations wishing a relatively low cost alternative to keep their members happy or small businesses.
Cost: 2,000 nuyen a month.

Medium
The standard level host for most businesses located in or near the high traffic areas of the grid they provide full simsense immersion and limited advertising as restricted by the grid provider e.g. you can have flyers up in various locations advising people of your existence but you couldn't put a billboard over a higher level hosts store. As these hosts are rented directly from the grid provider the only rules are the standard laws of the hosting company or in the case of the public grid your own local laws.

Sample Apperance: A typical shop with a wide range of merchandise and test areas for customers to experience your luxury surround sound tridertainment system.
Typical Users: Most businesses.
Cost: 5,000 nuyen a month.

High
You aren't paying for the extra features, your paying for the prestige these hosts are typically located in the upper areas of the grid can look up and see them. They also have a much higher amount of storage and processing power dedicated to them allowing for more exotic and detailed designs. These places don't need God to watch over them they have their own in house elite security ensuring no one causes trouble, the best ones may have real world security to ensure the trouble doesn't come back.

Sample Apperance: A top end, invite only private club with dance floors and "live" performances by major artists.
Typical Users: High level businesses and organizations.
Cost: 10,000 nuyen a month.

Luxury
Are you in virtual reality? This sure seems like a ski resort on top of a snowy mountain with crisp, clean air and animals trotting by the trails. For most people these hosts are the stuff of rumour and legend massive data farms housing the corps darkest secrets or private playgrounds for the rich and famous.

Sample Apperance: Each of these is custom built to the designers personal tastes.
Typical Users: Millionaires and Megacorps.
Cost: 100,000 nuyen a month.

If you spent a bit of time on it you could probably come up with the associated mechanics (number of people able to access at a time, virtual space avaiable, location on the grid, sample DC's for street level hosting, etc, etc). For example a street level host might have one room with your sim star sitting in a chair talking and playing "clips" of what they're on about whereas a wealthy individual might have a high level host as their blog site and it'll be fully immersive ala TV flashbacks. "I was at the mall and I saw Timmy there he was wearing a tight shirt and all his muscles were visible" sim of the girl flicks on a TV and you can see a cute boy in a tight shirt on it vs sim of a girl starts talking and you get a wavy effect as the scene melts into a mall and you can see the boy walking past, smell the food of the food court, hear the people in the background etc etc.

High level hosts offer more processing power and thus better functionality as well as are harder to hack e.g. if your paying for medium or higher you don't need to be the security. Medium has a standard array of protections, high have NPC deckers and luxury well black ice is probably standard along with HTR teams standing by in various global locations just to hunt down and deal with any potential hacker.

[Top Dog]

So my character, being in a combined matrix/magic group, was already musing with the idea of starting up a host for the group (well, as a group effort). I was hoping Data Trails would have rules for that, but alas.

Anyway, I sat around with my GM discussing how much it'd take. So far, the number we ended up was:

Rating^3 * 2000
(For setting up and sculpting the thing itself).

The rating being cubic means that, while low-end hosts are still viable for personal projects and small stores (2000 for a R1, 54000 for a R3 for a small business), the high end, which is earmarked for megacorps and nations, can't be realistically be bought by smaller groups, even wealthy ones. A R10 would cost a cool 2 million, and at the maximum a rating 12 would be just under 3.5M.

Our group, wanting a R6 shared between 300 members, would then be looking at ~1.5k per person. Quite an investment, but still doable (realistically it'll be more since not everyone can or wants to chip in).

Ideas? Too cheap? Too expensive? Wrong progession? Would exponential be better? (say, 2^Rating * 7000)?

Rating

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

Cubic (R^3 * 2k)

2k

16k

54k

128k

250k

432k

686k

1024k

1458k

2000k

2662k

3456k

Exponential (2^R * 7000)

14k

28k

56k

112k

224k

448k

896k

1792k

3584k

7168k

14336k

28672k