Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Wyldknight on <01-23-11/0045:38>
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So in the MBW description it sounded to me like it said that the bonuses are dependent on level. As in A MBW 2 gives +4 reaction, + 2 Dodge, and +2 IPs. On the other hand my GM thinks it only gives +2 reaction and +1 dodge regardless of the level.
Which one of us is right?
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You are right. The higher the Rating, the more bonus you get.
The move-by-wire system confers a bonus of +2 to the character’s Reaction attribute, +1 to the character’s Dodge skill rating, and +1 Initiative Pass per point of rating.
*emphasis mine
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'Jack already answered, but I'm confused as to your GM's interpretation -- why would anyone get the higher levels of it, under his reading of the rules?
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Actually, as I posted the quote from Arsenal, I can see the confusion. His GM is reading that the Reaction/Dodge is static, while the rating would increase the IP only. But I still think he's not reading it right.
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'Jack already answered, but I'm confused as to your GM's interpretation -- why would anyone get the higher levels of it, under his reading of the rules?
maybe because he can't believe that its so good....(sounds like a commercial ,doesn't it :D ?)
with an incredibly good Dance
Medicineman
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Critias: Presumably, b/c of the break down in the listing below:
Rating 1:
MBW: +2 REA, +1 Dodge, +1 IP, Skillwire 2, Essence 2, Cost 50k
SW(R:2)+WR: +1 REA, +1 IP, Skillwire 2, Essence 2.4, Cost 15k
Rating 2:
MBW: +2 REA, +1 Dodge, +2 IP, Skillwire 3, Essence 3, Cost 85k
SW(R:3)+WR: +2 REA, +2 IP, Skillwire 3, Essence 3.6, Cost 38k
Rating 3:
MBW: +2 REA, +1 Dodge, +3 IP, Skillwire 5, Essence 5, Cost 175k
SW(R:5)+WR: +3 REA, +3 IP, Skillwire 5, Essence 6, Cost 110k
So, until you hit Rating 3, SW+WR only offers an advantage in price. In exchange for that price, you get +1 Dodge and 0.4 - 0.6 Essence (and at R1, an extra point of REA). At R3, without going to alpha ware or better, you're looking at flatlining from Essence loss if you go SW+WR.
For my money, though, it seems like the text could go either way, a comma prior to "per point of rating" would make it clearly attributable to all three bonuses, but as written, it still could be read that way. Which works better, regardless of whatever the RAI might be, is up in the air. It seems excessive to me, for example, to pull +6 Reaction out of my hat, even given the price tag. Consider if that table I wrote up went more like this:
Rating 1:
MBW: +2 REA, +1 Dodge, +1 IP, Skillwire 2, Essence 2, Cost 50k
SW(R:2)+WR: +1 REA, +1 IP, Skillwire 2, Essence 2.4, Cost 15k
Rating 2:
MBW: +4 REA, +2 Dodge, +2 IP, Skillwire 3, Essence 3, Cost 85k
SW(R:3)+WR: +2 REA, +2 IP, Skillwire 3, Essence 3.6, Cost 38k
Rating 3:
MBW: +6 REA, +3 Dodge, +3 IP, Skillwire 5, Essence 5, Cost 175k
SW(R:5)+WR: +3 REA, +3 IP, Skillwire 5, Essence 6, Cost 110k
That seems too good for something that has a better Essence pay out than the alternative. Now, if ratings 2 and 3 only granted +1 to REA (for a final of +4 REA), it'd be a smoother and more logical progression.
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That seems too good for something that has a better Essence pay out than the alternative. Now, if ratings 2 and 3 only granted +1 to REA (for a final of +4 REA), it'd be a smoother and more logical progression.
Personally? I would expect MBW to be better. Remember: Wired Reflexes is OLD tech..I mean..REALLY OLD tech, been around since before the 50's level old.
MBW is the latest, bleeding edge tech, and it is pricey because of that. Does it cost less essence? Yeah, it does...Why? Because it is using the expertise that
is not involved in the tried, true, and ANCIENT skillwires+Wired Reflexes.
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Thanks for clearing this up. I'll be glad to show him this.
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That seems too good for something that has a better Essence pay out than the alternative. Now, if ratings 2 and 3 only granted +1 to REA (for a final of +4 REA), it'd be a smoother and more logical progression.
Personally? I would expect MBW to be better. Remember: Wired Reflexes is OLD tech..I mean..REALLY OLD tech, been around since before the 50's level old.
MBW is the latest, bleeding edge tech, and it is pricey because of that. Does it cost less essence? Yeah, it does...Why? Because it is using the expertise that
is not involved in the tried, true, and ANCIENT skillwires+Wired Reflexes.
Well, first thing is, just because Wired Reflexes has been around a long time, doesn't mean it's the same Wired Reflexes it always was. There's no reason to think that, just as cars and computers improve over time, Wired Reflexes bought in the 2070's couldn't be better technology than that bought in the 2050's.
That's a sidebar, though, to the fact that, from an in-character perspective, you present a perfectly reasonable justification for the GM's that want to implement it in that manner. I only meant to present the "crunch" side of the debate, seeing as, while there is no requirement for game balance, there is a reasonable expectation of a nod of the head to the concept. Some gaming groups prefer a more balanced game, others like the grit of needing to make the right choices b/c you can screw yourself (as in choosing WR+SW instead of MBW in my second example).
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I too was unsure about the ambiguity in the phrasing, but I ultimately decided that it's supposed to be based on buying Wired Reflexes N + Reaction Enhancers N + Skillwires 2N. Yes, you get a significant Essence savings for extra Nuyen cost, but that's pretty much how alphaware and bioware work too. They've just found a better way of combining redundancies between these various things, but it's still somewhat experimental (so risk, cost, and availability rating are all higher).
By the way, don't forget that MBW 2 costs an extra 5 BP (Restricted Gear) and MBW 3 simply isn't available at character creation. With WR, you can start the game with 4 initiative passes; with MBW you've got to trade up at some point.
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WR 3 is technically available at chargen, but 5 essence is a massive thing.
Still the difference between Restricted cyber and Forbidden cyber is substantial in some games which puts MBW III out of the running.
Meanwhile, Synaptic Boosters are still 240,000 for 1.5 essence. Compares pretty favorably to MBW III.
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The Forbidden thing might not be a big deal in this case, though. MBW 3 is Forbidden, but MBW 2 is merely restricted. It would be quite easy to get a fake license that says your illegal MBW 3 is actually legal and registered, and only the most sophisticated cyberware scanners could tell the difference. Even better if your fake license lists the thing as a legitimate medical device, and you don't throw up too many other red flags. Then the only tricky thing is getting the thing in the first place, and I figure if you can afford MBW 3, you can find a shop that'll put it in.
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That seems too good for something that has a better Essence pay out than the alternative.
MbW is only cheaper in essence if you actually want the skill wires, if not the essence cost is same, except you can almost get alpha ware WR3 for the price of standard grade MbW3.
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Add to that the skillwire nerf (10k per rating? Come on.) and they are much less attractive.
Alphaware + Biocompatibility and you free up a good chunk of Essence that you can spend on other goodies. Granted, you are nearly broke at this point, but you have 4IP's to console yourself with.
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That seems too good for something that has a better Essence pay out than the alternative.
MbW is only cheaper in essence if you actually want the skill wires, if not the essence cost is same, except you can almost get alpha ware WR3 for the price of standard grade MbW3.
If you didn't want the skillwires, I wouldn't think you'd even be considering the MBW. At that rate, I'd give consideration to Suprathyroid Gland + Synaptic Booster or Wired Reflexes at the desired level.
Of course, if all three bonuses of MBW scale with rating, you're still looking at +3 dodge and +3 REA for MBW3 over WR3, for 75k.
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Of course, if all three bonuses of MBW scale with rating, you're still looking at +3 dodge and +3 REA for MBW3 over WR3, for 75k.
+3 to dodge is only usable if you have dodge skill at 6 and the +6 to REA is in most cases totally excessive(normal max is 9 after all)
And as i said that 75K is almost enought to get alpha ware wired reflexes which frees up a ton of essence.
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Of course, if all three bonuses of MBW scale with rating, you're still looking at +3 dodge and +3 REA for MBW3 over WR3, for 75k.
+3 to dodge is only usable if you have dodge skill at 6 and the +6 to REA is in most cases totally excessive(normal max is 9 after all)
And as i said that 75K is almost enought to get alpha ware wired reflexes which frees up a ton of essence.
I agree on the 75k vs alphaware trade off.
And while the total +3 dodge is only fully useable if you already have Dodge 6, it guarantees that no matter the situation, you will have the highest modified Dodge you can have (ie, at Dodge 2, you have Dodge (3), Dodge 4 becomes Dodge (6), etc). And, it means that you only need to bring your REA up to 3, if you know you're going for MBW3. I can live with REA 3 (7) (MBW2) from game start to the point of getting the money/connections for MBW3. For many street sams, that probably frees up 20 - 45 BP* to stick elsewhere (granted, some of that's going to the MBW 2...).
*Sample Street Sam in SR4A has REA 5 (7) due to WR2, going with MBW2 (costing an extra 10 BP, plus Restricted Gear at 5 BP), you can lower REA to 3 (freeing 20 BP). This is a net gain of 5 BP, which can go straight into Dodge, giving an effective Dode 1 (2). And that still leaves 1 BP which could go into Gear or Contacts.
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Maximum modified skill rating is rounded down, just like maximum augmented attribute rating, so you'd need at least Dodge 2 to benefit from the MBW bonus. (See p. 68, SR4A, which notes that the maximum possible skill rating is 7 (10) with Aptitude.)
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Maximum modified skill rating is rounded down, just like maximum augmented attribute rating, so you'd need at least Dodge 2 to benefit from the MBW bonus. (See p. 68, SR4A, which notes that the maximum possible skill rating is 7 (10) with Aptitude.)
Point, though set beside the remaining advantages previously laid out, I don't think it changes the general advantages of MBW vis a vie WR.
The biggest counterpoint is the relative cost of going with alphaware WR to free up Karma for other important character aspects. At 64k for alpha WR2, it's still cheaper (nuyen) than the MBW2. Then, it boils down to whether you need the 0.6 Essence from alpha-WR2 or the 11 BP that MBW2 frees up. The 11 BP assumes you're keeping at a final, augmented Reaction of 7.
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The Move By Wire system in Augmentation (p. 40) says it "confers a bonus of +2 to the character’s Reaction attribute, +1 to the character’s Dodge skill rating, and +1 Initiative Pass per point of rating." It occurred to me building my new character that the bonus can be read two different ways. Either it gives +2 reaction and +1 dodge total and then 1 IP per rating point OR it gives +2 reaction per rating, +1 dodge per rating, and 1 IP per rating. I'm wondering which interpretation is correct.
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It's the second:
+2 reaction per rating, +1 dodge per rating, and 1 IP per rating
It's strange i don't find the subject who speach about that in this forum... maybe i dream...
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The Move By Wire system in Augmentation (p. 40) says it "confers a bonus of +2 to the character’s Reaction attribute, +1 to the character’s Dodge skill rating, and +1 Initiative Pass per point of rating." It occurred to me building my new character that the bonus can be read two different ways. Either it gives +2 reaction and +1 dodge total and then 1 IP per rating point OR it gives +2 reaction per rating, +1 dodge per rating, and 1 IP per rating. I'm wondering which interpretation is correct.
The Move By Wire issue has been covered before (see Move By Wire clarification (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=2679.0)). I've read through the thread myself, since I had concern over how to interpret it as well. Personally I think the cyberware operates as you described in the first example (+2 reaction and +1 dodge total and then 1 IP per rating point), since the grammatical structure of the sentence supports this, rather than getting those bonuses per rating. Plus the fact that if the cyberware does grant those list bonuses per rating, then it would drive a character's Reaction Attribute beyond the maximum. But this was pointed out in the aforementioned thread, yet the popular consensus is to opt for the all bonuses per rating. Nevertheless, since there is no errata or developer oversight on the matter, the topic is really going to endure as a debate.
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It's strange i don't find the subject who speach about that in this forum... maybe i dream...
haaaaa ! Thx major doom ! I'm not crazy ! it's really on this forum... but the search button don't work when i search "move by wire"...
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The Move By Wire system in Augmentation (p. 40) says it "confers a bonus of +2 to the character’s Reaction attribute, +1 to the character’s Dodge skill rating, and +1 Initiative Pass per point of rating." It occurred to me building my new character that the bonus can be read two different ways. Either it gives +2 reaction and +1 dodge total and then 1 IP per rating point OR it gives +2 reaction per rating, +1 dodge per rating, and 1 IP per rating. I'm wondering which interpretation is correct.
The Move By Wire issue has been covered before (see Move By Wire clarification (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=2679.0)). I've read through the thread myself, since I had concern over how to interpret it as well. Personally I think the cyberware operates as you described in the first example (+2 reaction and +1 dodge total and then 1 IP per rating point), since the grammatical structure of the sentence supports this, rather than getting those bonuses per rating. Plus the fact that if the cyberware does grant those list bonuses per rating, then it would drive a character's Reaction Attribute beyond the maximum. But this was pointed out in the aforementioned thread, yet the popular consensus is to opt for the all bonuses per rating. Nevertheless, since there is no errata or developer oversight on the matter, the topic is really going to endure as a debate.
Nothing pushes an attribute beyond the maximum. If, as I believe, the MBW R3 system gives a +6 to Reaction, and the human sammy has a base 5 Reaction, then he can only benefit up to 9 Reaction, but he still gets +3 Dodge/+3 IP. Now, another character that starts with base 2 Reaction would wind up with an 8 Augmented Reaction.
The maximum is set in stone. It doesn't prevent you from loading 'ware and such that theoretically gives you beyond your maximum, it just means you don't receive any bonuses after you hit said maximum (unless the 'ware/spell/effect specifically says so).
Edit: I also merged this with the previous topic so we have everything in one easy to find place.
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Thanks for merging the threads! As for pushing Reaction limits: MBW 3 is just enough to raise somebody from average Reaction to augmented maximum, Reaction 3 (9). You can get the same result with Wired Reflexes 3 + Reaction Enhancers 3, as I noted in the original thread, and I think MBW is supposed to be equivalent.
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One thing to note: if you plan on starting out with MBW: 2 and upgrading to MBW: 3 later, you can always start with a Reaction of 4 (improved to 8 ), then, when you get the MBW: 3, also get Genetic Optimization: Reaction, which allows your Reaction to increase to 10.
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Hey, doesn't the Move By Wire System kill you with seizures? TLE-x? Seems like a pretty terrible side effect.
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No, it makes you slightly more prone to it than other implants, and if you do get it, there is gene therapy for it. But it is rare, and generally PCs only get it if they take the negative quality for it.
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Hey, doesn't the Move By Wire System kill you with seizures? TLE-x? Seems like a pretty terrible side effect.
That was a long Time ago
In SR 3
Not anymore in SR4A
(but You can still have it as a Disadvantage)
HokaHey
Medicineman
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I figure there is a chance of getting TLE-x if you rack up to much stress on your ware
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One thing to note: if you plan on starting out with MBW: 2 and upgrading to MBW: 3 later, you can always start with a Reaction of 4 (improved to 8 ), then, when you get the MBW: 3, also get Genetic Optimization: Reaction, which allows your Reaction to increase to 10.
Don't forget the positive quality that increases the stat maximum as well. With the genetech mod and that quality, you could end up with the full 5(11) Reaction from MBW3