Author Topic: Suppressing Fire + Modes  (Read 1179 times)

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Suppressing Fire + Modes
« on: (09:50:38/02-07-18) »
I can't find any text saying you need to be in full auto to make suppressing fire. Am I missing something or did pistols get a buff?
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firebug

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #1 on: (10:27:05/02-07-18) »
Considering the two examples only use fully automatic weapons, that's some reason to assume it still needs it.  As well, the description of the action says "...technique it is in fact a combination of controlled and fully automatic bursts..." which I think pretty definitively says that you must have a FA weapon to use the action.

However, the concept of suppressing fire is the kind of thing that can work with any kind of firearm, isn't it?  Shoot at an area in such a way as to make people in the area keep their heads down and not risk moving into the area.  Doing that with a pistol does sound possible.  Though I'm not certain that still using 20 rounds of ammo makes as much sense if you were doing suppressing fire with a pistol.

I think it can only be used with FA, but allowing it with any weapon might not be a bad houserule.  It's a relatively underused mechanic as is, I feel.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #2 on: (11:13:12/02-07-18) »
Considering the two examples only use fully automatic weapons, that's some reason to assume it still needs it.  As well, the description of the action says "...technique it is in fact a combination of controlled and fully automatic bursts..." which I think pretty definitively says that you must have a FA weapon to use the action.

Since "semi-automatic bursts" are a rules concept, bursts explicitly don't have to be FA.  You can absolutely be using semi-automatic bursts in a "controlled" manner.

The only restriction is that if you don't fire 20 rounds, the area you suppress becomes smaller.  Technically you can use suppressing fire with a SS pistol firing 1 bullet. Of course common sense and rule zero always apply, so a GM certainly might say you need to fire at least 2 bullets to get a full meter of area to suppress.  But still, if you know where the target is (behind the trunk of that car, behind that window, etc) you don't need to suppress a full 10 by 2 meter area... 4 or even 2 bullets is enough for a very small area.

Delving into house rules: personally I like to say that the limit on Suppressing fire isn't [Acc] but the lower of the two between accuracy and # of bullets fired.
« Last Edit: (11:17:46/02-07-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

Finstersang

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #3 on: (12:08:19/02-07-18) »
I think it can only be used with FA, but allowing it with any weapon might not be a bad houserule.  It's a relatively underused mechanic as is, I feel.

In my experience, itīs relatively underused UNTIL the first player uses it successfully. Itīs easy too overlook how usefull suppressive Fire is in SR5 because you will rarely take out a target.

Though what bugs me a little bit is the weird interaction with Initative. As I understand the rules, targets with multiple passes also need to defend against the multiple times. Meanwhile, shooters with multiple passes will lose Actions if the start suppressing early on in the Combat round. Well, as long as it works. Surely one of the better mechanics in SR5  ;D
But at least we got fearies n' shit... *cough*

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #4 on: (12:53:24/02-07-18) »
I think it can only be used with FA, but allowing it with any weapon might not be a bad houserule.  It's a relatively underused mechanic as is, I feel.

In my experience, itīs relatively underused UNTIL the first player uses it successfully. Itīs easy too overlook how usefull suppressive Fire is in SR5 because you will rarely take out a target.

Though what bugs me a little bit is the weird interaction with Initative. As I understand the rules, targets with multiple passes also need to defend against the multiple times. Meanwhile, shooters with multiple passes will lose Actions if the start suppressing early on in the Combat round. Well, as long as it works. Surely one of the better mechanics in SR5  ;D

I really wish it lasted until your next IP rather than the end of the turn.  With it ending at the end of the turn, its action economy more favors the low-#-of-IP NPCs than Runners.  Still, even if your gun bunny or street sammie have 3-4 init passes, it can often be a viable action for the first pass so that the NPCs are forced to deal with it for their first (and often only) IP of the turn... the Runners can then do other things fairly unopposed for IPs 2+.

And I totally agree about the fantastic usefulness of suppressive fire... it's not at all about causing damage it's about putting a dice pool debuff on EVERYTHING the target is doing...
« Last Edit: (12:55:48/02-07-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #5 on: (13:18:02/02-07-18) »
I think suppressing fire is intended to be the kind of thing you have secondary combatants doing, anyways.  The face who's not great at shooting can do a lot more work inflicting a penalty and occasionally forcing people to take damage without having to actually hit them than trying to shoot once every pass and missing half their shots.  Or, so I feel anyways.

Hmm, so wait...  Does Suppressing Fire take 20 bullets immediately?  And so takes 20 bullets whether you fire for the whole combat turn or just one pass and then do something else?  Probably just one of the weird hiccups of the the Initiative Pass system.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #6 on: (13:32:37/02-07-18) »
I think suppressing fire is intended to be the kind of thing you have secondary combatants doing, anyways.  The face who's not great at shooting can do a lot more work inflicting a penalty and occasionally forcing people to take damage without having to actually hit them than trying to shoot once every pass and missing half their shots.  Or, so I feel anyways.

Well it's a debuff mechanic.  It literally doesn't matter if you hit... I use (or have NPCs use) Suppressive Fire to inflict the dice pool penalties rather than hoping you get the other guy to go prone or hope for a lucky hit (that'll just get soaked by armor anyway).  With SMGs coming up on the short end of the comparison between DV and Armor ratings... suppressive fire is about the best offensive use of a SMG imo.

Quote
Hmm, so wait...  Does Suppressing Fire take 20 bullets immediately?  And so takes 20 bullets whether you fire for the whole combat turn or just one pass and then do something else?  Probably just one of the weird hiccups of the the Initiative Pass system.

Well it takes 20 (or less, if you don't need to suppress 10 x 2 meters of area... see pg 180) bullets. Way the rules read, it appears the ammo is all used up in that one action used to perform the SP because the rules allow for you to subsequently do something else next IP, but it ends the suppressive fire if you do.  So it's great for characters that have only one IP.. it allows you to continue affecting those scary guys who have 2+ IPs after you're relegated to twiddling your thumbs and waiting for the next turn.  But if gunbunnies/sammies wait till their last pass, it won't affect anyone since everyone else is out of passes by the time they're on their last (which is why it'd be neat if it carried over to next action rather than end of round).  Still as I said upthread if you have a lot of passes and the opposition only has one... it's still likely worth it to "waste" suppressive fire action on your first pass to simply affect the opposition for their one and only action in the whole round... then do your 2nd/3rd passes with free reign.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #7 on: (13:40:05/02-07-18) »
Oh yeah a key, very key, word in the suppressive fire rules is "adjacent".

Quote
Anyone in the suppressive fire zone or immediately
adjacent to it takes a dice pool penalty to all actions equal
to the shooter’s hits..

Even if the target is ducked back behind the door/window/car and isn't geting hit at all, the mere fact that they're NEAR your SF bullets is making them suck at everything.  And it's automatically successful... just however many hits you get on your SF test is how bad they suck for the rest of the combat turn/until you do something else.  Even going prone won't undo the penalty.
« Last Edit: (13:42:59/02-07-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #8 on: (13:41:04/02-07-18) »
It's just amusing to me that if you're hyper fast and get 5 passes in a single turn, the bullets from the same gun are spent quicker.  Every once in a while the abstractions of tabletops results in some weird quantum nonsense.  Cyborg with 5 passes spends first pass doing Suppressing Fire and then does something else--  20 bullets are "used" in 1/5th of 3 seconds.  Wageslave with 9 Initiative and thus 1 IP does Suppressing Fire on the same first pass (just after the cyborg), and so continues the supressing fire for the entire combat turn, taking 3 seconds.  I'm not complaining, that kind of thing is just inevitable in a tabletop.

I remember playing a game of d20 Modern and thinking how weird it was that someone driving a car past me had to stop (the car's movement for the turn was used), and I could walk in front of the car, touch the hood with my hands or strike the car with a sword, and then walk back on to the sidewalk despite the fact that in the game world, the car never stopped moving.
« Last Edit: (13:42:37/02-07-18) by firebug »
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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #9 on: (11:45:33/02-09-18) »
So... No one knows?
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firebug

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #10 on: (11:47:40/02-09-18) »
I said in my first post that the requirement of Full Auto may not be stated in plain-text, but it's implied strongly enough that anything else would be a houserule.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #11 on: (12:53:45/02-09-18) »
I said in my first post that the requirement of Full Auto may not be stated in plain-text, but it's implied strongly enough that anything else would be a houserule.

I'd disagree.. the rules text say that bursts are used.  The kinds of bursts that are recognized by the rules are Semi-Automatic Bursts (SB), Burst Fire (BF), Long Bursts/Full Auto as a simple action (LB), and Full Auto as a complex action (FA).  There's nothing in the suppressive fire rule text that reasonably implies that "controlled bursts" are limited solely to FA bursts.  Nor is it cinematically appropriate for semi-automatic pistols to be ineligible for suppressive fire (think of any Cop movie or TV show ever).  In fact, since suppressive fire uses a base of 20 rounds where FA only uses 10, I'd see that as pretty conclusive evidence that suppressive fire and FA are not equated in the suppressive fire rule.

I'd read it that since the descriptive fluff says "bursts" are used, any gun capable of SB/BF/LB/FA is eligible for suppressive fire.  Which is basically everything except SS and one shot weapons.


« Last Edit: (13:06:37/02-09-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #12 on: (13:05:17/02-09-18) »
Ah, okay, so you're not asking "which one does the book say", you're asking "do the rules say I can't do this".  The no, if the description of "controlled and fully automatic bursts" and two examples isn't enough, there's nothing that explicitly says you cannot use it with other firing modes.
« Last Edit: (13:07:40/02-09-18) by firebug »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #13 on: (13:07:20/02-09-18) »
Ah, okay, so you're not asking "which one does the book say", you're asking "do the rules say I can't do this".  The no, if the description of "controlled and fully automatic bursts" and two examples isn't enough, there's nothing that explicitly says you cannot use it with other firing modes.

No, I'm saying there's nothing in the rules that says FA is the assumption.

What's your basis for saying, for example, a Semi Automatic burst is not a controlled burst?

ah since you edited your response, I think I see we may have been talking past each other due to some syntactic ambiguity in the rules.  What does "controlled and fully automatic bursts" actually mean?

I've been reading it "controlled bursts and fully automatic bursts"
You seem to read it "bursts that are both controlled AND fully automatic".

If that's our wrinkle, then yeah we won't convince each other.  It's just how you read the rules... but I do think it's a bit self-righteous to say anything other than your way is a house rule :)  It's how the GM reads plain language.
« Last Edit: (13:15:16/02-09-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

firebug

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Re: Suppressing Fire + Modes
« Reply #14 on: (13:14:44/02-09-18) »
That does seem to be our wrinkle.  I have no reason to assume "controlled and fully automatic" isn't talking about one thing, as I don't see why the fully automatic part of it wouldn't also be controlled.  I don't think it's saying "controlled bursts or uncontrolled fully automatic fire".  The whole point of Suppressing Fire is that it is controlled over a specific area, right?  I don't mean to be self-righteous; but I've put a lot of time into doing this sort of thing on the errata team.  You've got to give me some credit on this sort of thing.
« Last Edit: (13:16:19/02-09-18) by firebug »
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