Author Topic: Lethality  (Read 3180 times)

Reaver

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #15 on: (02:23:46/01-30-18) »
Please, fair fights are for suckers. 
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

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Marcus

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #16 on: (06:19:53/01-30-18) »
Please, fair fights are for suckers. 
LOL so true.

Mr. Black

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #17 on: (06:41:17/01-30-18) »
Shadowrun is “semi-heroic”. Yes, a single round from a heavy pistol will drop the average, unarmored joe. But the game gives everyone a defense roll. Spend a point of edge, and you can dance through machine gun fire. So every player can be a hero for a little while. But dance too long in front of those machine guns, and you’ll be dogmeat.

Add in Full Defense, and body armor and you can dance a little longer. Just don’t stand there too long. All the dodge dice and soak dice won’t last forever.

Mirikon

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #18 on: (07:25:51/01-30-18) »
Please, fair fights are for suckers. 
LOL so true.
A wise man once said, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."

Leave fair fights for boxing matches and other professional competitions, or keep it to the sparring mat when training. When things are actually going down, cheat as early and often as possible, in every way you can. The dead can't complain about your methods.
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Ghost Rigger

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #19 on: (09:57:00/01-30-18) »
Please, fair fights are for suckers. 
LOL so true.
A wise man once said, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."

Leave fair fights for boxing matches and other professional competitions, or keep it to the sparring mat when training. When things are actually going down, cheat as early and often as possible, in every way you can. The dead can't complain about your methods.
See? These guys get it. Lethality is your friend, you just have to go out of your way to make sure it's on your side first.

ShadowcatX

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #20 on: (12:21:48/01-30-18) »
The game encourages players to avoid violence that isn't heavily tilted in their favor; it is a subtle but very important difference.

Even violence in their favor can result in a lucky bullet to the head.

firebug

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #21 on: (12:28:53/01-30-18) »
The game encourages players to avoid violence that isn't heavily tilted in their favor; it is a subtle but very important difference.

Even violence in their favor can result in a lucky bullet to the head.

Yeah, but that's what Edge is for.  One of its best uses as bullshit insurance.  I know I only use Edge in two situations.  The first is where I want as overwhelming a success as possible (like negotiating payment or trying to get stupid numbers on a buff spell or to get as many services as possible on a binding roll), and the second is to make sure I don't get screwed over by a luck, whether it's "this ganger somehow rolled 8 hits with 12 dice" or "I actually rolled a critical glitch, the devil is real".
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Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Ghost Rigger

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #22 on: (13:15:05/01-30-18) »
Even violence in their favor can result in a lucky bullet to the head.
If that's your attitude, why are you even playing a chance-based game?

firebug

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #23 on: (13:16:29/01-30-18) »
That seemed a little unprovoked, Ghost Rigger.  He's just saying that there's always a risk involved, even if you think you're set up for a landslide victory.
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Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Mirikon

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #24 on: (14:27:48/01-30-18) »
The game encourages players to avoid violence that isn't heavily tilted in their favor; it is a subtle but very important difference.

Even violence in their favor can result in a lucky bullet to the head.

Yeah, but that's what Edge is for.  One of its best uses as bullshit insurance.  I know I only use Edge in two situations.  The first is where I want as overwhelming a success as possible (like negotiating payment or trying to get stupid numbers on a buff spell or to get as many services as possible on a binding roll), and the second is to make sure I don't get screwed over by a luck, whether it's "this ganger somehow rolled 8 hits with 12 dice" or "I actually rolled a critical glitch, the devil is real".
Agreed. That is the only reason I ever use Edge. Hell, the only time I ever have more than 1 Edge usually, especially with the damned Priority system, is when I'm playing a Human. The only time I have more than 2 is when I'm playing a Mundane Human, and still have those points.
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Magnaric

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #25 on: (21:33:21/01-30-18) »
Please, fair fights are for suckers. 
LOL so true.
A wise man once said, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."

Leave fair fights for boxing matches and other professional competitions, or keep it to the sparring mat when training. When things are actually going down, cheat as early and often as possible, in every way you can. The dead can't complain about your methods.

I actually agree with this basic idea, but I disagree with the term "cheating", at least as it's used in this case. It's just plain smart to try and stack the odds in your favour, since in real life bullets, knives, headbutts, tax audits, and your girlfriend leaving you because "she needs time to find herself" all suck. The Art Of War by Sun Tzu can basically be summarised as "use every advantage you have, and deny the enemy every advantage you can".

Even violence in their favor can result in a lucky bullet to the head.
If that's your attitude, why are you even playing a chance-based game?

This kind if strikes me as a shirty outlook, tbh. Every situation, no matter how things are stacked in your favour, has an element of risk. If you and the enemy are pointing guns at each other, and you're behind cover, from a higher angle, and they're out in 5he open, and you have a bigger gun, and the sun is in their eyes, and...they could still get lucky.

Real life is stranger than fiction, and you don't have to look very long to find stories of people dying to random stray shots, or the luckiest soldier ever having a bullet hit his pocket watch instead of his kidney, or stuff like that. You CANNOT predict/prepare for every single variable.
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Glyph

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #26 on: (22:01:41/01-30-18) »
The game kind of encourages an action movie feel, but it is more like a John Woo movie, where the main characters are not guaranteed to survive.  You can make an array of combat mysads, speed sammies, tanks, etc. to rock out in combat, but they are not invincible.  It would be a boring game if they were.  Such characters are optimized for fun (for those who enjoy combat), not survival.

If you are more interested in surviving, you can play a long-distance sniper, or a stealthy type, or a rigger or summoner who sends in spirit or drone mooks, or a face who has the rest of the group protecting him like linebackers protecting their quarterback.  Or be a support character (medic, mechanic, etc.) who rarely even sees combat.

Rosa

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #27 on: (22:21:12/01-30-18) »
While I agree on everything being said about stacking the odds in your favour being sensible, I don't think SR is slanted towards non combat play.  I mean just look at the sheer number of combat skills,  weapons,  combat magic. ....etc. and you could easily think that SR was a very combat oriented game,  which is of course not true either.  I rather see it as a game that hands us a wide variety of tools and then challenges us to come up with the best use of those tools in any given situation. But it is definitely more realistic in its approach to combat than a lot of other games,  but that's part of what makes combat in SR so fun and rewarding when it does happen. That being said some of the most memorable runs for my part are the ones where we managed to pull it of with no one ever knowing we were there.

Mirikon

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Re: Lethality
« Reply #28 on: (22:25:28/01-30-18) »
Please, fair fights are for suckers. 
LOL so true.
A wise man once said, "If you're not cheating, you're not trying."

Leave fair fights for boxing matches and other professional competitions, or keep it to the sparring mat when training. When things are actually going down, cheat as early and often as possible, in every way you can. The dead can't complain about your methods.

I actually agree with this basic idea, but I disagree with the term "cheating", at least as it's used in this case. It's just plain smart to try and stack the odds in your favour, since in real life bullets, knives, headbutts, tax audits, and your girlfriend leaving you because "she needs time to find herself" all suck. The Art Of War by Sun Tzu can basically be summarised as "use every advantage you have, and deny the enemy every advantage you can".
There's also the Evil Overlord List, which states: "I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve," and "I will instruct my Legions of Terror to attack the hero en masse, instead of standing around waiting while members break off and attack one or two at a time." And this one is a bit dated, since it came from the age of 3.25" floppies, but the sentiment remains: Any data file of crucial importance will be padded to 1.45Mb in size.

And yes, I fully endorse calling all of that cheating. You can shorten it to 'winning', I guess, but it is far better to just own the fact that you shamelessly cheat in a fight, instead of wasting time trying to defend your actions to people who disagree with your methods. They'll complain a lot less when they've been fed to the ghouls.
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Re: Lethality
« Reply #29 on: (08:13:08/01-31-18) »
This kind if strikes me as a shirty outlook, tbh. Every situation, no matter how things are stacked in your favour, has an element of risk. If you and the enemy are pointing guns at each other, and you're behind cover, from a higher angle, and they're out in 5he open, and you have a bigger gun, and the sun is in their eyes, and...they could still get lucky.

Real life is stranger than fiction, and you don't have to look very long to find stories of people dying to random stray shots, or the luckiest soldier ever having a bullet hit his pocket watch instead of his kidney, or stuff like that. You CANNOT predict/prepare for every single variable.
I'm aware that the enemy can always get lucky. My issue is that if one thinks that Shadowrun is about avoiding violence because the enemy can always get lucky, why even play games of chance at all?