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21
What do you think about the question of Armor getting a resistance test if cast on a living target who doesn't want the spell/would be harmed by the spell?

It's not exactly the case of casting on a nonliving target, but if a living target is allowed to get a resistance test on a normally unresisted spell used in a hostile way then it's setting the precedent that an "unresisted" spell is indeed sometimes resistable.
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Rules and such / Re: Vehicles valid target for Armor spell
« Last post by ShadowcatX on (15:29:15/02-22-18) »
Copacetic, fair enough.

As to the object resistance I haven't made up my mind yet. My first reaction was that object resistance would apply, and my second thought was well done catalyst...
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Nor did I, in any way, attack Rat. What people need to do is learn to not be so thin skinned that correcting someone or an attack on their argument is seen as an attack on their person.

Well to be fair speaking as the target of the comment made upthread:

Notice how anything that disagrees with him is semantics or fluff? Weird how that works, it's almost like he knows he's wrong but wants to persist in a bullheaded and ridiculous argument for no reason.

It DOES seem to be in the neighborhood of a personal attack.  But no offense taken, to be clear, because I've actually pondered whether or not I'm trying to have it both ways between this and the Suppressive Fire thread.

That being said, I'm copacetic if you are.  When it comes to being allowed to use the heal spell on a nonliving target we both agree you can't (maybe we disagree on WHY, but if so who cares about disagreement that minor).  When it comes to using Armor on nonliving targets, we can agree to disagree on whether it's a house rule or "rules-as-intended-but-not-explicitly-said" (RAI) that object resistance comes into play when the spell is a physical manipulation cast on a non-living object and that spell doesn't say there's normally a resistance test.

Peace :)
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Rules and such / Re: Vehicles valid target for Armor spell
« Last post by ShadowcatX on (15:13:46/02-22-18) »
Firebug, please learn the difference between an insult (eg. You're stupid) and pointing out holes in someone else's argument (eg. Ignoring everything that doesn't agree with him.) If you have trouble with that, there are online dictionaries.
Oh for goodness sake Shadowcat, Firebug was trying to be nice, and help you, at the very least you could have the good grace to grasp this fact,
Failing that understand this is the internet if all the other side in a discussion is ignore all contravening evidence, the conversation is actually probably going pretty well.
Chill out a man, it's really ok. Everyone who stays on here long enough will get temp banned for something or other, usually going to far, but save it for those whom truly have it coming. Just try to learn whom your friends are.

I was every bit as polite to firebug as firebug was to me. Nor did I, in any way, attack Rat. What people need to do is learn to not be so thin skinned that correcting someone or an attack on their argument is seen as an attack on their person.
25
Character creation and critique / Re: Mercenary Mystic Adept
« Last post by ShadowcatX on (15:08:46/02-22-18) »
I've considered that, the problem is, with karma being taken up by mystic adept powers, I'm pretty tight on karma, I'd have to pull it away from positive qualities. Do you think that would be worth it? It probably would be mechanically, agility 5 is 25 karma, 10 positive qualities post doubling is 20 karma...
26
First off, Iīll admit: Im a sucker for henchmen/companions etc. for player characters. Not only in shadowrun, but also in D&D and Chronicles of darkness etc.
The Drone rigger fills that role pretty decently in Shadowrun (We have slightly modified the repairing rules for drones, so he not THAT expensive).

This post is about the awakened characters and their methods of acquiring allies and non meta-human henchmen.

First off the Spirit ally.
In our meta the spirit ally has 2 roles in the party
Role 1: be a source of frustration for the awakened as its far too expensive to acquire at Force 6+ in one go. This means that the awakened usually spends many many game nights NOT using his karma, instead saving it up to make a crazy splurge of 50-60+ karma in one go on a spirit ally. (this will instantly bring the spirit ally to its second role below). Alternatively he will give up and use his karma on something else.
Role 2: Super powerful entity that makes a lot of the other players feel cheated. This is because the ally spirit is almost always bought at some crazy force level like 6+. and thus will have a  multitude of powers and abilities, and on top of that will have a karma-starved magician as a henchman.

Both of those roles are pretty unsatisfactory for us. In the current rules the system punishes the player for buying an ally spirit at low force level- with the intent to level it later when the campaign progresses. (karma costs are doubled for force increases after creating the spirit). At the same time the karma cost is a flat 8/16 per force level- which again reinforces the idea that its better to start off with as much force as possible. Organic growth of the ally is thus less rewarding.

My proposed rule would be this:
Cost of creating ally spirit is changed to the following:
Step 1: Choose force: The base cost of the force is 5 karma for each new level of force. (like upgrading attributes on a character).
Step 2-5: as normal on page 201 in Street grimoire.

Enhancing an ally:
The ritual enhance ally is potentially deleted the awakened always has the ability to pay for advancements-given Karma and time. Enhance abilites etc as a normal character. (enhancing the spirits force from 3 to 4 would cost 4*5 karma = 20 karma).

This rule would mean that the spirit is much more obtainable costing "only" the ritual(s) and then 30 karma for a nice Force 3 spirit ally with some cool stuff. (and yes the crazy force 6 ally would cost a crazy amount of karma).
The old rule wouldnt advice a F3 spirit, instead going for the gamechanger F6ish. Costing 53-58 karma.

PS: Does the spirit require 2 different rituals to make ? Ally conjuration (page 122) and Create ally (page 126)? I would reduce that to only a single ritual (which aspected conjurers may use without ritual spellcasting).


Does the community see any pitfalls or suggestions with this new rule?
(Other than the standard response of working as intended because its shadowrun) :)


Second New karma cost: the Attune Animal Ritual:

The original cost structure goes like this:
5 karma for the ritual
Animal handling+charisma (12,1 week) to befriend it
Bonding: force = willpower of animal, F hours
Karma expendure equal to Essence of animal. (this means augmented animals are easier to create as companions)
Very limited: the ritual should be named Attune [animal type] as only crows, lynx, etc can be attuned with each ritual.
Material link to the adept.
May only have (initiation grade) of attuned animals at a time. (this means that even though an adept could choose the ritual without having initiated he cant use it for anything.)
Gain: sense link and possibility of further enhancing the animal through the empower animal ritual

My suggestion would be this:
5 karma for the ritual
Animal +charisma (18- animals essence, 1 week) Makes the befriending process slightly longer for augmented animals.
Material link to adept.
May only have initiation grade +1 of attuned animals at a time.
Gain: sense link and possibility of further enhancing the animal through the empower animal ritual

As the only real gain at this point is sense link, I feel that the limit on low number of animals and the time it would take to acquire a new one and befriend should be costs enough. The adept would also be able to have some ravens, a horse and wolfdogs at the same time without needing 3 separate rituals. (but would still need to be a crazy initiate).
In that regard does the community see any pitfalls here or other suggestions?

Empower: (page 128 street grimoire)
The original had this on the animal itself. Im contemplating on making it slightly different.
Temporary transfer:The adept spends karma equal to 4 times the power point cost of the power. Once the ritual has been compleed he has the ability to transfer that power to any of his attuned animals- loosing acces to the power whilst it is lent out. 
Qi marked: maybe use as is?


Naturally for both the spirit ally and the arruned animals are that the GM has the final say to disallow imbued tortoises sitting safely at home while sustaining spells on the adept all day. Or having the spirit ally create alchemical potions for the party 24 hours a day etc.

And lastly Attune item and Imbue items need s an overhaul too. I mean look at attuning a bike as the book uses as an example. After the adept has familiarized himself with the bike he needs to make a FORCE 15 RITUAL! and then pay 9 or 10 extra karma to bond it... he then gains a +1 limit on using the bike. If he then wants to attune it he needs to have another ritual and make another force 15 ritual and pay 9 or 10 karma. He can then choose amongst the list of 7 different imbue traits. one of which is purely negative and 2 others are meant for foci, not attuned items. This leaves him with 4 choices, one of those is meant for weapons. So that leaves him with Loyalty (penalty to others using his bike), Perceptive (he can find his bike when within 10 * magic meters, even if its hidden by magic) and Respect (lowers social penalties when on his bike) all of these naturally also requires him being initated..
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Rules and such / Re: Vehicles valid target for Armor spell
« Last post by Jack_Spade on (14:56:36/02-22-18) »
Sounds like the reinforce spells pretty solidly answers that question.

Comparing the Reinforce to the Armor spell shows that the former is pretty superior in nearly all ways to the later:
Not only does a vehicle/drone or personal armor gain armor and structure it also doesn't turn you into a highlighted target on a battlefield and all for just one point more drain more - which can be pretty handily ignored through the use of reagents

As for the question if Armor can be used offensively:
Manipulation spells have a pretty clear description: "Physical: These spells affect physical forms and are usually defended against with a living targetís Body + Strength or an inanimate objectís Object Resistance dice pool."
So if you don't want the spell to apply to you, you can break it with a Body+Strength test.

On the question if Armor can be used on non-living targets: "This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the subject that protects against Physical Damage."

That seems to be a strong indication that it's meant only for living things, since non-living things a very, very rarely seen as subjects, but consistently called objects throughout the rules.

In contrast the Reinforce spell clearly says: "Reinforce allows the spellcaster to increase the structural integrity of an object no larger than casterís Magic in square meters."

If subject and object became interchangeable, Reinforce would be the go to spell for every combat character.
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Character creation and critique / Re: Mercenary Mystic Adept
« Last post by Marcus on (14:40:34/02-22-18) »
Drop str to 1 and buy it two with karma, free's up 1 point very easily.
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Rules and such / Re: Vehicles valid target for Armor spell
« Last post by Marcus on (14:33:39/02-22-18) »
Firebug, please learn the difference between an insult (eg. You're stupid) and pointing out holes in someone else's argument (eg. Ignoring everything that doesn't agree with him.) If you have trouble with that, there are online dictionaries.
Oh for goodness sake Shadowcat, Firebug was trying to be nice, and help you, at the very least you could have the good grace to grasp this fact,
Failing that understand this is the internet if all the other side in a discussion is ignore all contravening evidence, the conversation is actually probably going pretty well.
Chill out a man, it's really ok. Everyone who stays on here long enough will get temp banned for something or other, usually going to far, but save it for those whom truly have it coming. Just try to learn whom your friends are.
30
Character creation and critique / Re: Mercenary Mystic Adept
« Last post by ShadowcatX on (14:02:15/02-22-18) »
I really like the 3 logic, though I admit it isn't optimal, charisma I can cut down 1 on easy enough. Do you think cutting reaction to 3 (5) would be insane?

Skill groups were meant to just show a bit of breadth on skills, I can drop outdoors easy enough, and maybe acting or influence, I definitely want to keep athletics.

I always end up taking a mentor spirit, I hadn't put much thought into it for this character yet, but Oracle sounds mechanically powerful (though the skill boost is the essence of meh) and it would give me a bit more focus as an information gatherer / intelligence person (which reinforces not dropping logic).
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