Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: DigitalZombie on (16:29:16/02-01-18)

Title: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: DigitalZombie on (16:29:16/02-01-18)
So what's your most challenging character concept that you've come up with that actually works?
I created an adept (not mystic adept)  melee pixie bezerker that seems to work fine (on paper,  never played it). I'll see if I can find the link later.

Example concepts I'm having trouble envisioning at a gaming table would include stuff like:
AI face
Naga b&e expert
Large and physically strong specimen (like cyclops)  drone riggers.
Aspected mmagician enchanters in general.
PI shapeshifter

What are yours? Or what's your challenge to someone else to build?
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: firebug on (16:50:44/02-01-18)
For me, it was trying to make Lo-Res (the 5th-edition version of Firebug, my favorite character) work.  She's a technomancer, but in 4th edition she was a vehicle empath who was a go-ganger.  She needed to be able to rig a motorcycle, fight in chase sequences, not be useless in normal tactical combat, and still be competent at hacking.

That worked in 4th edition, but jesus titty-humping christ is that a lot harder to achieve in 5th edition, where TMs can't even jump into things without initiating once, building a TM who isn't outclassed by the most basic-bitch of a decker is already a tall order, and expecting to have anything leftover to still do something as basic as know how to fire a gun or have any above-average physical attributes makes me grind my teeth into dust.  While also making sure I don't ignore the few things a TM can do that actually makes them different from a decker (namely, sprites and complex forms).

I end up having to cut a lot of corners, enough that I renamed the character because the concept required so many retcons and changes that it just couldn't be called the same character anymore.  Every time I go back to her, I end up rebuilding her from the ground-up hoping that this time I'll make it all work, and I won't just end up with a character that would be a thousand times more effective and coherent as a mundane character.  I usually end up leaving her with low Charisma and just nothing in Cybercombat, I lowball Computer (and rely on the +2 Matrix Perception TMs get to not be just blind on the matrix), I make liberal use of Specializations, she's still actually shit at Piloting because I don't have the REA for it or enough points to spare on the skill, and my plan for her in normal combat is to hide behind her motorcycle and tell it to shoot for her.  This is with her having an B or A in attributes, for the record.  She usually only has Compiling and no Registering, no Hardware or Mechanics skills...

Oh wait.  "that actually works".

Well...  I still like roleplaying as her, does that count?
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Jack_Spade on (17:02:08/02-01-18)
Completely mundane character without magic or cyberware
Works as an elven face with Lightning Reflexes

The greatest challenge for me is creating any kind of mystic adept - because I really can't stand them.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: firebug on (17:09:41/02-01-18)
Oh!  Here's one I did that actually did work!

I made a character who was a vampire.  Just a vampire.  Not a vampire magician, not a vampire adept, just a vampire.  Jack_Spade mentioning "completely mundane" reminded me.  She was a private detective before she was infected; she has pretty solid combat skills and some passable social skills, and when you have 7 REA and 7 INT, you're basically set to be dangerous in combat by virtue of having good initiative and great defense dice.  Some day I wanna make a character who's just a ghoul for a game in Chicago, but that requires the right kind of group.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Marcus on (18:31:53/02-01-18)
AI face is interesting  I'll have to take a look at it, it something I'd love  to see.

I do think straight non-cyber-non-magic PI is solid challenging build to get effective. The edge method works, but another option would be interesting, maybe drugs?

I would add Any Techno build that's not a petnomancer.

Any ghoul build, double bonus points for ghoul face.

The Astral Explorer magic option, I have made two build around this, and while I find them both fairly amusing I'm not sure I have one I think is going anywhere.

The BAND!!! Maybe it was just when I was playing 2nd or maybe it was just the groups I played with, but having a band used to be cool thing you did in SR. I'd love to see that come back. (FOR MY DARK MASTER!!!!) lol

Animal Shamans- I guess this is way easier, but I just haven't seen many running around recently.

Interesting Gangers - (Go or otherwise) Preferably built at street level.

Hippies/eco-activist/SJW- whatever you want to call it, maybe Eco-terrorist used to be what this was, but it's something i recall for several editions, and haven't seen any running around.

The Mastermind- So leadership the skill, it has a use I have literally never seen in play.  It's called Rally, and it raises your team initiative. The question is can you make a build that makes every other build in the party better by purely social skill means. I would love to see if you can get a whole party initiative to be the exact same, via one leadership roll.

FUN with Skill WIREz- So as some may recall in some older version of background, many corp employees and factory workers were expect to get high raiting skill wires. which sometime lead to weird mind controlled populations, but I do recall a scene where the whole building suddenly all downloaded rating 6 unarmed combat, and then everybody was KUNG FU FIGHTING!!!! At recent Con I had blast with rating 2 skill wires, doing all the wild skills, simply being one download away. What can you do with rating 6 skill wires?

Digital Assassin, the dreaded matrix killer- It's something discussed at some length in background, but even my most cyber combative deckers would be hard pressed to actually whack the decker on the other end. Double bonus points if you can make it as a TM.

That's all I can think of for now.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Glyph on (22:57:21/02-01-18)
Completely mundane character without magic or cyberware
Works as an elven face with Lightning Reflexes

The greatest challenge for me is creating any kind of mystic adept - because I really can't stand them.

An unaugmented mundane also works for a sum-to-ten human: A - Attributes, A - Skills, C - Human, and E for Resources and Magic.  Instead of Lightning Reflexes, have Adrenaline Surge and Revels in Murder.  Characters without magic or augmentations are still suboptimal, but this Edition is definitely more generous to them.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Csjarrat on (07:41:25/02-02-18)
I had an adept free-runner hacker called flea, ran her in a pbp. Worked OK!
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: ShadowcatX on (09:18:00/02-02-18)
Completely mundane character without magic or cyberware
Works as an elven face with Lightning Reflexes

The greatest challenge for me is creating any kind of mystic adept - because I really can't stand them.

An unaugmented mundane also works for a sum-to-ten human: A - Attributes, A - Skills, C - Human, and E for Resources and Magic.  Instead of Lightning Reflexes, have Adrenaline Surge and Revels in Murder.  Characters without magic or augmentations are still suboptimal, but this Edition is definitely more generous to them.

Hmmmm....I like it.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: legionof1 on (14:47:26/02-05-18)
Snip
Animal Shamans- I guess this is way easier, but I just haven't seen many running around recently.
snip

Hippies/eco-activist/SJW- whatever you want to call it, maybe Eco-terrorist used to be what this was, but it's something i recall for several editions, and haven't seen any running around.

The Mastermind- So leadership the skill, it has a use I have literally never seen in play.  It's called Rally, and it raises your team initiative. The question is can you make a build that makes every other build in the party better by purely social skill means. I would love to see if you can get a whole party initiative to be the exact same, via one leadership roll.

FUN with Skill WIREz- So as some may recall in some older version of background, many corp employees and factory workers were expect to get high raiting skill wires. which sometime lead to weird mind controlled populations, but I do recall a scene where the whole building suddenly all downloaded rating 6 unarmed combat, and then everybody was KUNG FU FIGHTING!!!! At recent Con I had blast with rating 2 skill wires, doing all the wild skills, simply being one download away. What can you do with rating 6 skill wires?

Digital Assassin, the dreaded matrix killer- It's something discussed at some length in background, but even my most cyber combative deckers would be hard pressed to actually whack the decker on the other end. Double bonus points if you can make it as a TM.
snip

Animal shamans/adepts are actually pretty interesting/decent characters. The trouble is that the situations they excel at are underrepresented in most campaigns/missions and at least until Howling Shadows was released not terribly well supported. The environment of 5th just kinda grew around some niches leaving them in effective limbo even after the content they needed got released. 

Similar to above the eco-character is a niche that just got limboed due to content. In this case the dark side of the ecology content in the form of toxics and such received a lot of attention/content. Probably some real world bleed-over as well. The environment has become a mainstream concern, harder to be radical when everyone is doing it.   

The leadership based mastermind is from personal experience, really hard to make worth the investment, without just ending being a primary face anyway. Rally in particular is pretty weak, only producing +1 initiative per two hits. It can be very useful at times but it requires allies to have rolled initiative just shy of an additional pass to shine. And players investing in initiative modifiers have probably tuned themselves to be just over a pass. I found there is plenty more mileage via the Direct action.

Played the max skill wires build and it's just not short to mid term cost effective. While cheaper in terms of absolute resources each individual skill at 6 is quite expensive in terms of char gen newyen. Also the rating x4 availability dictates investing in Restricted gear quality. So all told the maxed out wires cost 120k newyen and 10 karma without skills. 30k per rate 6 skill. it adds up very fast, and you still end up being inferior to the specialist since you rarely have the attributes they will. And you cant really sub for a decker or rigger without a bunch more gear. In something like a missions character its more valuable since the table compostion is never the same and its not a given all specialists are present.   

The format of the 5e matrix has effectively killed the digital assassin. The targets gear will brick well before you can cause sufficient feedback to kill someone. At least so far. Maybe the forthcoming book will provide a way to deal feedback without dealing matrix damage. Until then the concept is dead.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Glyph on (22:28:07/02-05-18)
Leadership specialists can get the small unit tactics knowledge skill to supplement their leadership skill, and use the combat maneuvers from Run & Gun.  Too bad they made tac-nets so prohibitively expensive.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: FST_Gemstar on (22:42:11/02-05-18)
Leadership specialists can get the small unit tactics knowledge skill to supplement their leadership skill, and use the combat maneuvers from Run & Gun.  Too bad they made tac-nets so prohibitively expensive.

Resources A and Restricted Gear works for a Pi-Tac 2. Combine with small unit tactics. 

Take it farther by 
A: Being a technomancer that uses sprites on their Pi-Tac 2 to give everyone connected to the pi-tac extra bonuses to perception, sneaking, and (likely) automatics. (talk to gm)
B: Get a cheap RCC and drones with small unit tactics and weapon to teamwork. Drones can be part of the tac network for to make their low dicepools decent, and they can teamwork small unit tactics tests. 



My favorite builds now that were challenging but work are technomancer hybrids that both hack and do something else. The erata that gives them extra skills and a few more free CFs make them much more doable. Previously, you could make a hacking technomancer (either a Res 1 braindecker or a petnomancer) or machine sprite focused non-hacker that can help out the decker with complex forms.   

Technomancer/Faces I think have become my favorite. 

My two favorite ways to go about it: 

Poor face who becomes an increasingly capable as hacker  and social infiltrator type  in play like (pre-erata) Know-it-All.https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6kA-rvHAq-rT1RKMW5VMUNTZkk/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6kA-rvHAq-rT1RKMW5VMUNTZkk/view). With extra skills and more starting CFs he can be much more competent at game start. 

Drugs/Ware boosted brainy face.  Something like an EDCAB Res 1 character with two essence of bioware. Raise Resonance back to 2 in game and you have a functional hacker with functional sprites, can use drugs to boost your physical prowess, mental prowess, and living persona, and have the skills/qualities/gear/ware to also be an effective face. Sprite assisted social armor can go a long way if your GM doesn't ban it.



As for your concepts: 
Naga B&E specialist seems like it won't work. 
I just don't like making AI characters so I wouldn't even try. 
Cyclops Drone RIgger would work fine. 
I also tend to stay away from shapeshifters. 
Aspected Enchanters for a lot of builds. They make fine Magic 1 Private Investigators (EBDCA). Yay Reagents! Folks can play alchemist deckers, but they make decking even clunkier with clunky alchemy rules.  Alchemist archers/shotgunners also work ok as combat characters. The biggest deal with alchemy is just its clunkiness (multiple step process to cast a spell and sustaining/potency bookkeeping). It's why I like the Investigator alchemist the best. They rely on their Magic D enchanter basically just for a magic rating and assensing, but can learn alchemical support spells that are used specifically more for permanent/immediate spells than anything else (things like fashion, makeover, and compel truth come to mind). 
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: firebug on (09:16:58/02-06-18)
Leadership specialists can get the small unit tactics knowledge skill to supplement their leadership skill, and use the combat maneuvers from Run & Gun.  Too bad they made tac-nets so prohibitively expensive.

Yeah, but honestly 90% of the benefits of a tacnet can be gained simply by using AR (assuming everyone has a simrig so they can share senses).  Only the numeric bonuses actually need the tacnet.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: DigitalZombie on (16:04:43/02-06-18)

I made a character who was a vampire.  Just a vampire.  Not a vampire magician, not a vampire adept, just a vampire......  Some day I wanna make a character who's just a ghoul for a game in Chicago, but that requires the right kind of group.
Ooh yeah Ive tried to make vampires/ghouls in older editions. I dont know how well they would turn out in 5th.
What did the vampire use to augment her PI skills with? Just naturally good intuition and skills?

@Marcus maybe we could kill two birds with one stone and create a mundane ghoul face..... wait. Maybe thats stretching it a bit.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Marcus on (19:20:30/02-06-18)
@Marcus maybe we could kill two birds with one stone and create a mundane ghoul face..... wait. Maybe thats stretching it a bit.

I'm not opposed to the idea but yea that's gonna be rough ride lol.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Glyph on (22:24:19/02-07-18)
A mundane ghoul face is just barely doable if the GM lets you buy off the Blind quality, because being a human-poser is the only way to really make it work.  Get cybereyes, clean metabolism to take care of the ghoul body odor, lots of cosmetic work (perhaps it would be the equivalent of getting a gender/metatype change), and tailored pheromones: 3 to compensate for the lowered Charisma (definitely want to go human or elf for metatype),

Lowering your Magic to zero will take away the dual-natured quality, and the armor and natural weapons will be sacrificed to be able to pass for human.  In the end, you will basically spend 29 Karma for a net gain of two Attribute points, some enhanced senses, and higher Attribute maximums in a few areas.  Offsetting this is a moderate allergy to sunlight, the need to eat metahuman flesh, a lower Charisma, and the loss of a point of Essence.  So yeah, it could work, but it is definitely setting the game to Hard difficulty level.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: RiggerBob on (22:30:38/02-07-18)
Most difficult was recreating my cybered dronomancer for 5th Edition

But aside from all the other mechanical difficulties technos face in this edition, running drones on the public grid and slaved to a decent commlink (with stealth and smoke and mirrors) is a really good matrix defense setup (for technomancers that don't need (and can't) slave drones to their living persona and can ignore grid penalties).  :)

Code: [Select]
Human
Codeblock (Disarm Data Bomb)
Codeslinger (Control Device)
Focused Concentration (Rating 1)
In Debt V
Technomancer
Weak Immune System

BOD: 3
AGI: 1 (2) [9]*
REA: 2 (4)
STR: 1 [3]*
CHA: 2
INT: 4
LOG: 4 (6)
WIL: 5
EDG: 2
RES: 4
Essence: 4,01
(*Cyberarm)

Living Persona ATT: 2, SLZ: 4, DP: 6, FWL: 5

Dicepools:
Aeronautics Mechanic           7
Automotive Mechanic            7
Compiling                      10
Computer                       10
Con                            3
Electronic Warfare             11
Etiquette                      3
Gunnery (Ballistic)            8 (10)
Hacking (Devices)              7 (9)
Hardware                       10
Leadership                     3
Negotiation                    3
Perception                     5
Pilot Aircraft                 7
Pilot Ground Craft             6
Pilot Watercraft               5
Pistols (Semi-Automatics)      3 (5)
Registering (Machine Sprites)  10 (12)
Sneaking (Urban)               3 (5)
Software                       10

Contacts: Fixer (3, 1), Chop Shop Mechanic (1, 1)

Lifestyle Low - 1 Month

Complex Forms: Static Veil, Transcendent Grid

Ballistic Mask                     
Cheap Gloves                       
Clothing                           
Coveralls                           
Form-Fitting Body Armor             
   + Concealability
   + Custom Fit
   + Biomonitor

Cerebral Booster 2
Cybereyes Basic System 2
   + Image Link
   + Flare Compensation
   + Low-Light Vision
   + Smartlink
   + Thermographic Vision
Reaction Enhancers 2
Sleep Regulator
Obvious Full Arm (Right)
   + Customized Agility 6
   + Smuggling Compartment
       + Commlink
            + Transys Avalon
                 + Electronic Parts
                 + Program Carrier (Virtual Machine) [Encryption, Smoke and Mirrors]
                 + Stealth Dongle 1
   + Modular Connector, Elbow
   + Enhanced Agility 3
   + Obvious Lower Arm
       + Modular Component
       + Large Smuggling Compartment

Tool Kit (Hardware)
   + Cyberlimb Connector
Tool Kit (Automotive Mechanics)
   + Cyberlimb Connector
Tool Kit (Aeronautic Mechanics)
   + Cyberlimb Connector
Evo Proletarian

Flying-Eye
   + Pilot 3
   + Sensor 5
   + Vision Enhancement 3
   + Vision Magnification
   + Low Light
   + Audio Enhancement 3
   + Spoof Chip
GMC Universe
   + Morphing License Plate
   + Spoof Chip
   + Run Flat Tires
   + Rigger Cocoon
   + Smuggling Compartment
   + Grid Link
   + Grid Link Override
   + Vehicle Tag Eraser
   + Speed Enhancement 1
   + Anti-Theft System 1
   + Light Weapon Mount [Concealed; Flexible]
      + Ingram Smartgun X
         + Smartgun System, Internal
         + Sound Suppressor
         + Regular Ammo x32
   + MultiPaint System
   + Small Drone Landing Rack
Horizon Mini-Zep
   + +1 Speed
   + +1 Acceleration
   + Lighter Frame
   + Large Mount [Pop-Up]
      + Springfield M1A
         + Silencer
         + Smartgun System, External
         + APDS x20
   + Pilot 3
   + Spoof Chip
   + Electrochromatic Coating
Pelican
   + Lighter Frame
   + Mini Weapon Mount [Pop-Up]
      + Parashield Dart Pistol
         + Smartgun System, External
         + Narcoject x5
   + Spoof Chip
Roto-Drone
   + +6 Armor
   + Pilot 4
   + Large Weapon Mount[Pop-Up]
      + AK-97
         + Gas-Vent 3 System
         + Smartgun System, External
         + Regular Ammo x38
   + Spoof Chip

Autosoft (Maneuver (Pelican)) 2
Autosoft (Targeting (Dart Pistol)) 2
Autosoft (Maneuver (Flying-Eye)) 3
Autosoft (Clearsight) 3
Autosoft (Maneuver (Roto-Drone)) 4
Autosoft (Targeting (AK-97)) 4
Autosoft (Maneuver (Mini-Zep)) 3
Autosoft (Targeting (Springfield M1A)) 3
Autosoft (Smartsoft) 3
Autosoft (Aeronautic Mechanic) 2
Autosoft (Automotive Mechanic) 2
Ares Predator V
   + Smartgun System, Internal
   + Spare Clip
   + Regular Ammo x15
   + Stick-n-Shock x15
Ceramic/Plasteel Knife
Fake SIN (Primary) 4
   + DocWagon Contract, Basic
   + Fake License (Firearms License) 4
   + Fake License (Concealed Carry Permit) 4
   + Fake License (Driver's License) 4
   + Fake License (Advanced Drone Pilots) 4
   + Fake License (Security Drones) 4
Fake SIN (Disposable) 2
   + Fake License (Firearms License) 2
   + Fake License (Concealed Carry Permit) 2
   + Fake License (Driver's License) 2
Certified Credstick
Concealable Holster
Datachip x10
Duffel Bag (Cheap)
Flashlight, Infrared
Medkit 6
Miniwelder
Prepaid Commlink (Cheap) x2
Restraint, Plastic x10
Survival Kit
Tag Eraser
Tool Shop (Automotive Mechanics)
Tool Shop (Aeronautic Mechanics)
508¥
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: firebug on (22:33:22/02-07-18)
Ooh yeah Ive tried to make vampires/ghouls in older editions. I dont know how well they would turn out in 5th.
What did the vampire use to augment her PI skills with? Just naturally good intuition and skills?

It was Sum-to-10, so I was able to put an E in Metatype and an E in MAG/RES, letting me put an A in both Attribute and Skills, and a C in Resources.  My GM also let me buy one optional Infected power, so I began the game with Regeneration.  So, just being able to have great attributes and skills mostly, especially with Vampire giving a boost to a lot of attribute caps and even more attribute points.  The campaign never really got off the ground, but her role in the group would have been more "combat and Intuition skills" while her social skills were good enough to make her able to handle most social encounters, but not good enough to be a primary face and negotiator or anything.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Finstersang on (11:17:31/02-08-18)
I´m currently looking forward to a new round as PC where we play a cell of terrorists instead of standard runners. Since the characters won´t likely survive more than a few evnings before blowing themselfes up, we are encouraged to make them more dysfunctional than usual. F.i., the groups gunner will be a lunatic redneck conspiracy theorist. Just a few days before our future GM announced the plan, I was joking with friends about a character concept/backgroung that was just to fitting for this scenario - The Pug  ;D

Mechanicaly, the char is a Dog-Gnome-Shapeshifter acting as the teams Matrix-, Tech- and Demolition Expert. High Logic, Intuition and Will, low on everything else including Charisma.

Background-wise, it´s a Pug. Literally. And not the moderately healthy, sweet kind of pug, but the misarably overbred type, complete with respiratory problems, googly eyes and a deformed face that even translates into its metahuman form. So, there´s your motive for terrorist activity - complete hatred for humanity, which he blames for his misarable existence.

To my surprise, when building this char, I realized that the concept does actually kinda work out. One reason is the fact that I can use the dog shapeshifter in the Metatype column to get cheaper access to the Gnome metatype*. Sure, the result is a fragile, unhealthy creature that won´t survive any serious combat encounter (even with retconned Regeneration power for Shapeshifters). However, The Pug fits the role of the hacker/techie quite well, with a huge dice pool thanks to his high logic and the fact that a bit of min-maxing is quite justified for the whole concept: "Of course he´s got a Body and Strength of 1 - it´s a pug!"

Plus, he should be awesome to roleplay. I´m already practicing the coughing and heavy breathing ;D

*I used this cheesy little trick on another weird character before: A Japanese Fox-Koborokuru Shapeshifter ("Kitsune") Ninja-style Adept. That one worked out incredibly well, too!
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Marcus on (15:55:26/02-08-18)
There really isn't anything good in there I feel like i can comment on. All of it sounds ether creepy or just wrong to me.
I guess I hope you have fun with it. I'm sorry but I really feel like it's important someone actually say this, Playing a suicide bomber pug terrorist is just not right man. It's just wrong on many,many levels. 
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Finstersang on (11:05:39/02-12-18)
Yeah, that´s, like, your opinion man   8)


Anyways, concepts using low-tier shapeshifters to gain cheap access to certain metaveratiants do work pretty well.
It´s a bit cheesy, though  ;D

Another challenging concept would be the troll face. My take would be a face-brawler mix that has a background story as an actual luchadore (mexican/aztlan Wrestler), complete with the fame (local) Quality and a great stage personality. Some MA techniques and a decent Strength and Body in Combat, but you also bring resonable social skils to the table, though mainly in the Acting Skill Group. A specialization on faking injuries seems fitting. Another mundane, low-augment build, but that gives the character room to grow.

Speaking of which: B&E specialists tend to be build as highly specialized Ex-Military/intelligence agency/somethingsomethings with lots off Gadgets, Augmentations and/or Adept powers, the obligatrory Chameoleon Suit, Elastic joints and the like. But what about a more street-level infiltrator build? You know, the sterotypical, black-mask, home-invader/burglar type with a more down-to-earth approach to infiltration missions. Maybe a Trog for extra steorotype points :P One that rather uses a crowbar instead of a maglock sequencer (he has one, but its new and expensive tool for him) and rather just intimidates himself out of sticky situations by strategically waving a ruger super warhawk at the terrified residents? Good sneaking skills, good general stats, and a little pinch of the advenced skills and gear needed for more professional missions.

What I like about these kinds of concepts is the fact that they have room to grow, so you can discover stuff like augmentations, Drugs, awakening paranormal powers etc. during the course of the game instead of starting with 5 points of Essence in Bodyware that would have cost a fortune and that is only rationalized by the usual "Well, he/she/it was part of Military Unit/intelligence agency/somethingsomething"-Copypasta. How about you´re just a (somewhat talented) Ex-convict with a minor drug addicion, shared custody for an estranged child and no augmentations besides that one nano-tattoo you got in 2065 while shitfaced?

Sadly, the mundane, low-augment builds that just offer solid stats and skills with more room to grow are highly underrepresented (see also: gangers) in favor of min-maxed, highly optimized builds where the players often have no clue what actually drives their transhuman Übermensch anymore. It´s showers before growers


 
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: SavarWallk on (19:22:01/02-12-18)
Hehe, troll face.
Closest I came to one.
Code: [Select]
Name Biff
GM none
Method sum to 10

Race 3 Troll Thermographic vision, +1 reach, +1 dermal armor, +100% lifestyle cost
Attribute 3 20
Resonance 2 Resonance 3 / 3 Complex forms / 3 skills at 2
Skills 2 28/2
Resources 0 6000

Bod 5 : 5
Agi 1+2 : 3
Rea 1+4 : 5
Str 5 : 5
Wil 1+4 : 5
Log 1+3 : 4
Int 1+3 : 4
Cha 1+4 : 5

Edg 1+2(25 karma): 3
Ess 6
Res 3 Cleaner, Static Vail, Transcendent Grid

Initiative Rea+Int: 9+1D6
Matrix init: 8+4D6

Mental [(Log x 2) + Int + Wil] / 3 (rnd up): 6
Physical [(Str x 2) + Bod + Rea] / 3 (rnd up): 8
Social [(Cha x 2) + Wil + Ess] / 3 (rnd up): 7

Free knowledge/language 2×(Log+Int): 16
English N
Parazoology [emergent] 6 [8]
Seattle Street Gangs 4
Vending machine companies 5
Close Combat 2
Computer 5
Software 6
Cybercombat 6
Electronic warfare 5
Hacking 5
Etiquette 4
Longarms [shotguns] 2 [4]

Free contracts (Cha×3): 15
Decker 1/4
Bartender 1/3
(Organized crime) Lieutenant 3/3

Qualities
Exceptional attribute: Charisma 14 karma
Codeslicer: Data Spike
Extremely allergic: Gold +20 karma
Incompetent: Stealth +5 karma

Karma 1

Lifestyle: squatter 1000
Cheap clothing 200
Lined coat 1,800 acc 6 reach 2, str+3P
Staff 200
Commlink 3 +sim +trods 2000+200+140
Enfield AS-7 +(2)spare mags +ammo 2200+20+120
¥120+(2D6×40)

Growing up on the streets of Seattle was not the way I would have chosen. Mom didn't know who dad was, he was most likely someone who gave her a warm place to sleep some night. All I really remember of the early years was moving from place to place scrambling for food and shelter. With the lack of good food I ended up a runt. I did learn to interact with people and how to scare some of them. My favorite thing to do was watching the animals, the ones who did strange things. I seen one raccoon walk up to a vending machine reach in and grab out a soybar. Shortly after that I figured out that some of them interacted with machines. About that time I started hearing and seeing things that others didn't. I talked about that to a weird guy, but he said I was without magic.
I started learning to interact with machines. Learning to use them and abuse them for fun and profit. I sometimes work for the local organization when they are doing some matrix stuff. Tim is the guy that asks me about that type of work, we get along pretty well. I am an unknown so I can muddle the trails so they can escape. If I am not doing that I have been hanging out with a guy named Hoyle learning some of how deckers work while teaching him about technomancers. If I need a better meal then out of vending machines I do some odd work at Relf’s place, what a dive. Relf is nice and friendly but the drinks and food are interesting, better than vending machine but not by much.
I need some better work to get a better place to live. I also want to find some other technomancers so I can learn about sprites as I don't know what they are. Most of my technomancer abilities I have learned from animals or practice with Hoyle.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: JoeNapalm on (12:03:29/02-13-18)
Funny that this thread is up...

...I'd swung by while researching if a Human Unarmed Adept was even worth attempting.

Much more difficult, I'm finding, than even my old Firblog Mage Detective. Even moreso because I'd prefer he not be a Burn Out...not even sure if that's possible.

I took Prototype Transhuman, picking up Bone Density 2 and four Striking Callouses...but find myself wondering why he wouldn't just use a shotgun. Jujitsu looks pretty cool, Throwing less STR dependent, but not sure how realistic the Clinch/Throw combo is...

Is there a reasonable way to make a Human worthwhile in Unarmed? I realize that the min-max says "MINOTAUR" but really just interested in making the concept viable.

[EDIT : Not totally averse to going Burn Out, just haven't explored the long-term cost/benefits. I'll have to futz about with it...]

[[EDIT to the EDIT : The more I think about it, the more I think I answered my own pondering and should consider Way of the Burn Out]]

-Jn-
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Marcus on (12:26:32/02-13-18)
Unarmed human adept is easy, forget the cyber-ware nonsense,  Grab the shark mentor spirit, Pick your favorite martial art, if it involves kicking grab a weapon focus steel toed boots, and if it first then magic knucks, now just you just need to figure out how how much initiative vs combat sense you need, throw on a couple level's improve ability unarmed, Critical Strike unarmed, and maybe nerve strike just incase would prefer not to punch hole in someone.

That all combined with  attributes A should easily give you an unarmed pool in upper teens or low twenties, a good initiative, a great standard Defense Pool (Reaction+Initiation+Combat sense) and for anything else that characters is human so use some edge.

Not sure what seems difficult to you, it's almost stranded these days in 5th.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: JoeNapalm on (12:29:55/02-13-18)
Unarmed human adept is easy, forget the cyber-ware nonsense,  Grab the shark mentor spirit, Pick your favorite martial art, if it involves kicking grab a weapon focus steel toed boots, and if it first then magic knucks, now just you just need to figure out how how much initiative vs combat sense you need, throw on a couple level's improve ability unarmed, Critical Strike unarmed, and maybe nerve strike just incase would prefer not to punch hole in someone.

That all combined with  attributes A should easily give you an unarmed pool in upper teens or low twenties, a good initiative, a great standard Defense Pool (Reaction+Initiation+Combat sense) and for anything else that characters is human so use some edge.

Not sure what seems difficult to you, it's almost stranded these days in 5th.

That's exactly where I started...

...and then looked at his Remington 990 vs his UA damage and wondered "Now, why wouldn't he just shoot them?"

-Jn-
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: ShadowcatX on (12:31:26/02-13-18)
I think a human unarmed adept is going to have to focus less on strength and damage dealing and more on control through martial arts and adept as their damage ceiling is somewhat low compared to other counterparts. That doesn't mean it isn't doable, a human infiltrator or social adept with a side of unarmed combat could work well, it's just that when the big guns come out a human punching isn't going to be that big of a gun.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Marcus on (12:49:33/02-13-18)
Unarmed human adept is easy, forget the cyber-ware nonsense,  Grab the shark mentor spirit, Pick your favorite martial art, if it involves kicking grab a weapon focus steel toed boots, and if it first then magic knucks, now just you just need to figure out how how much initiative vs combat sense you need, throw on a couple level's improve ability unarmed, Critical Strike unarmed, and maybe nerve strike just incase would prefer not to punch hole in someone.

That all combined with  attributes A should easily give you an unarmed pool in upper teens or low twenties, a good initiative, a great standard Defense Pool (Reaction+Initiation+Combat sense) and for anything else that characters is human so use some edge.

Not sure what seems difficult to you, it's almost stranded these days in 5th.

That's exactly where I started...

...and then looked at his Remington 990 vs his UA damage and wondered "Now, why wouldn't he just shoot them?"

-Jn-
Can't always carry a shotgun? Shotguns run out of Ammo? with 20ish dice to hit, your extra successes will make sure that your damage is solid.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Jack_Spade on (13:12:39/02-13-18)
Another way is prototype transhuman, get some cheap striking calluses (+2) + bone density augmentation (STR+3) for an all natural and essence friendly damage boost. Add critical strike (+1) and the Death Dealer quality (+1) from Forbidden Arcana and later find the Beast's Way (+1) and even a human with STR 5 can have his 13P unarmed damage
(You'll likely need the restricted gear quality as well, but afterwards you have a character that could punch through most walls with little trouble)
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: evilaustintom on (14:07:55/02-13-18)
...
The leadership based mastermind is from personal experience, really hard to make worth the investment, without just ending being a primary face anyway. Rally in particular is pretty weak, only producing +1 initiative per two hits. It can be very useful at times but it requires allies to have rolled initiative just shy of an additional pass to shine. And players investing in initiative modifiers have probably tuned themselves to be just over a pass. I found there is plenty more mileage via the Direct action.
....

I have to say...I have a TM with high leadership playing the overwatch position of groups in Shadowrun Missions, and I've always been quite pleased with how he does.  Just on the rally action alone, I often just spend each action in combat taking the rally action, and I've been able to have my dice pools around 30-ish pretty consistently.  With an average of +5 to everyone's initiative per rally, that's granting everyone else in the group a bonus action every two rallies.

Admittedly, I invested a lot with leadership - a standard pool of 12 dice isn't going to get you a lot.

Also, aiding other's actions is always useful.  Considering my pool is usually big enough that I can just buy the 6 successes necessary to just give folks the max bonus dice they can get with six skill ranks...

I think the original poster of the 'leadership' idea probably assumed that the character is primarily a face anyway.  Otherwise, that's just one more strike against your build (fighting upstream, as it were).  You can only do so much with the points you've been given.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: DigitalZombie on (15:57:53/02-13-18)
My pixie melee adept had nerve strike. Looked perfect on paper anyways:).
Human melee adepts usually also have enough skill points/attribute points left to be a decent face/b&e expert. That way you can decide when and where you wish to strike- the minotaur adept cant.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: JoeNapalm on (16:47:18/02-13-18)
Another way is prototype transhuman, get some cheap striking calluses (+2) + bone density augmentation (STR+3) for an all natural and essence friendly damage boost. Add critical strike (+1) and the Death Dealer quality (+1) from Forbidden Arcana and later find the Beast's Way (+1) and even a human with STR 5 can have his 13P unarmed damage
(You'll likely need the restricted gear quality as well, but afterwards you have a character that could punch through most walls with little trouble)

Yeah, he's a Prototype Transhuman with Bone Density and 4x Striking Callouses and Critical Strike already. Not familiar with Death Dealer...will have to look that up.

If I were to go Burnout Way with Biocompatility (Cyber) I could potentially buff him up a bit more, but would have to investigate.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: legionof1 on (22:18:15/02-13-18)
snip
Yeah, he's a Prototype Transhuman with Bone Density and 4x Striking Callouses and Critical Strike already.
snip

From personal experience this is usually plenty of oomhp even if you tend to do mostly stun against armored targets. STR+4-6 is plenty nasty even for humans.   
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Marcus on (22:20:34/02-13-18)
...
The leadership based mastermind is from personal experience, really hard to make worth the investment, without just ending being a primary face anyway. Rally in particular is pretty weak, only producing +1 initiative per two hits. It can be very useful at times but it requires allies to have rolled initiative just shy of an additional pass to shine. And players investing in initiative modifiers have probably tuned themselves to be just over a pass. I found there is plenty more mileage via the Direct action.
....

I have to say...I have a TM with high leadership playing the overwatch position of groups in Shadowrun Missions, and I've always been quite pleased with how he does.  Just on the rally action alone, I often just spend each action in combat taking the rally action, and I've been able to have my dice pools around 30-ish pretty consistently.  With an average of +5 to everyone's initiative per rally, that's granting everyone else in the group a bonus action every two rallies.

Admittedly, I invested a lot with leadership - a standard pool of 12 dice isn't going to get you a lot.

Also, aiding other's actions is always useful.  Considering my pool is usually big enough that I can just buy the 6 successes necessary to just give folks the max bonus dice they can get with six skill ranks...

I think the original poster of the 'leadership' idea probably assumed that the character is primarily a face anyway.  Otherwise, that's just one more strike against your build (fighting upstream, as it were).  You can only do so much with the points you've been given.

Some interesting feed back there, is Rally Simple or Complex? How big is your Team? giving up two actions to give the other team mates an action is some interesting math.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: firebug on (22:27:08/02-13-18)
snip
Yeah, he's a Prototype Transhuman with Bone Density and 4x Striking Callouses and Critical Strike already.
snip

From personal experience this is usually plenty of oomhp even if you tend to do mostly stun against armored targets. STR+4-6 is plenty nasty even for humans.

Add in adepts having high dice pools, and then you get powers like Penetrating Strike for -4 AP...  Unarmed Adepts wreck face in 5th Edition.  Plus if you buy Smashing Blow (or get it in a Qi Focus) then you can also just obliterate obstacles with your bare hands.  Try striking a barricaded door with 30P and seeing your GM have to explain how destroyed the door is.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Marcus on (22:36:21/02-13-18)
snip
Yeah, he's a Prototype Transhuman with Bone Density and 4x Striking Callouses and Critical Strike already.
snip

From personal experience this is usually plenty of oomhp even if you tend to do mostly stun against armored targets. STR+4-6 is plenty nasty even for humans.

Strength +2 with a Solid to hit pools does the job just fine. I don't see the reason everyone feels like they need unarmed damage over 10P. Melee combat is much more dependent on pool and accuracy(P-limit where applicable) then it is by Damage. A troll with combat axe might as well take a seat cause he's never gonna hit anything vs well built melee characters.  Martial arts will give a lot more interesting options, then simply being the one hit wonder. A Shadowblock expert teamed with Auto weapon user can do some interesting things. Yes it takes team work, but Runners are part of team for a reason.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Glyph on (22:37:06/02-13-18)
I've done two human martial artist builds.  The adept had Prototype Transhuman like JoeNapalm's, heavily augmented, mostly with bioware.  I also took Rapid Draw and Missile Mastery to complement it.  Someone who needs no weapons - he can use his hands and feet in close, or pick up anything at hand to throw at greater range.  The mundane human, by contrast, was better at tanking, equally good at damage, and slower but with better passive dodge.  His main thing, though, was an Edge of 7 and the RIM quality.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: legionof1 on (22:37:54/02-13-18)
snip
Some interesting feed back there, is Rally Simple or Complex? How big is your Team? giving up two actions to give the other team mates an action is some interesting math.

All the basic leadership options are complex actions. So if you have the huge pool and a few passes per turn its pretty good.

The question is if investing to 30ish DP by whatever means worth the extra pass for the team for every 2 of yours. I would be inclined to say no, given what 30 DP would by you elsewhere.

30 DP is admittedly easier to get to in social instances but damn that's some investment still
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Marcus on (22:43:01/02-13-18)
snip
Some interesting feed back there, is Rally Simple or Complex? How big is your Team? giving up two actions to give the other team mates an action is some interesting math.

All the basic leadership options are complex actions. So if you have the huge pool and a few passes per turn its pretty good.

The question is if investing to 30ish DP by whatever means worth the extra pass for the teith am for every 2 of yours. I would be inclined to say no, given what 30 DP would by you elsewhere.

30 DP is admittedly easier to get to in social instances but damn that's some investment still

Yeah I don't think i dare sit down with a pool at 30, even if I could figure one out it's just pushing the limit more then I am prepared to do.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: JoeNapalm on (11:25:35/02-14-18)

Thanks, all -- I did some tweaking and came out with him punching with the same force as his 12 gauge, so I'm pretty content.

I do have some more things I'm pondering, but I can start a new thread rather than further derail this one.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: ShadowcatX on (12:36:10/02-14-18)
Can the decker mage work anymore?
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Tecumseh on (13:40:34/02-14-18)
@Glyph Do you have those builds posted anywhere? I've been tinkering with unarmed adepts lately and want to compare notes.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Glyph on (23:42:11/02-14-18)
@Glyph Do you have those builds posted anywhere? I've been tinkering with unarmed adepts lately and want to compare notes.

I just posted the prototype human adept build in a new thread.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: ZeldaBravo on (03:50:00/02-16-18)
Can the decker mage work anymore?
Of course! A solid concept.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: Finstersang on (04:40:30/02-16-18)
Can the decker mage work anymore?
Of course! A solid concept.

Increase Attribute for Logic and Intuition Buffs. Spells like Pulse or Vehicle Mask that are straight up Complex Forms given to magicians for some reason. Mind Probe as a shortcut for acquiring passwords and paydata. Spirits that guard your body while you are in VR. It´s a lot more solid than a present-day Technomancer  :P

Same goes for decker adepts, which can be easily build as mobile AR-Combat Hackers with Increased Reflexes, Improved Skills and Perfect Time.

You have to be a bit tricky with the priorites and you will probably need to shave your head for the trodes, though  8)
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: firebug on (04:47:27/02-16-18)
Can the decker mage work anymore?
Of course! A solid concept.

There was a challenge on this board to make a character who had a C in all priorities.  I went with an Aspected Hermetic Sorcerer/Decker.  Increase LOG to have 10 Logic makes you a good decker basically by itself, before even getting creative with it.

And yeah...  The character was a better hacker (and legitimately less cheesy) than most TMs I've seen or made.
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: ShadowcatX on (09:59:27/02-16-18)
Can the decker mage work anymore?
Of course! A solid concept.

There was a challenge on this board to make a character who had a C in all priorities.  I went with an Aspected Hermetic Sorcerer/Decker.  Increase LOG to have 10 Logic makes you a good decker basically by itself, before even getting creative with it.

And yeah...  The character was a better hacker (and legitimately less cheesy) than most TMs I've seen or made.

Narco + Psyche?
Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: DigitalZombie on (07:35:16/02-18-18)
Ghoul face.

A:attributes
B: skillz
C: magic (adept)
D: human
E: cash

Body: 3     will: 5
Agil: 5       logic: 3
Rea:3 (4)  int: 5
Str: 7         Cha: 3 ( yes, a pretty mediocre score)
Magic:5    edge: 3 ( I think?)
Ess: 5        ini: 9+2d6

Skillz:
Assensing:6 (8 )   perception: 4 (6)
Etiquette: 4           intimidate: 6
Con: 4                    unarmed: 6
Biotech  skill group: 5
Negotiation: 6 +2(whatever is used for negotiating pay skill speciality) +3 imp. Ability +2 mentor bonus.


Qualities:
Armor+1, dual natured, enh. Hearing/smell, bite and claws, allergy sunlight moderate -29 karma
First impression 11 karma (more due to people are taken aback by his looks, and not thinking straight).
Mentor spirit: peacemaker
Criminal SIN: registered ghoul. +10 karma
Bad luck: +12
Dependant: +3 a ghoul family member (not registered as a ghoul)

Adept powers:
Improved reflexes 1   1,5PP
Imp. Ability 3               1,5PP
Enh. Perception 2        free from mentor spirit
2 more points on kinesics, cool resolve or authorative tone.



This face has a respectable DP of 18 when negotiating for the first time with mr. Johnson.

In the legwork phase the ghoul can use his assensing Dp of 13 to gather leads. He has a lot fewer contacts than a regular face with his mediocre charisma score.

Combat: decent closecombat ability. And good astral combat skills thanks to being dual natured with natural weapons.

He has the bonus of being good at patching up his team mates after a fight with first aid and medicine
 (And if he fails in saving them he could always find another use for them).

He still has some karma points left for some skill points or cash.
I know many people here see the criminal SIN as an automatic death sentence for any runner. I see it as a great roleplaying opportunity - alot better than allergy to bees or sailors etc. I went for the straight ghoul look instead of going the illusion/make up/ cosmetic surgery road. I find this more fun and challenging.

Bonus question: when do you resist a negotiation roll? Regarding the kinesics power.
For instance:
Mr johnson: Im willing to pay your team 30k for that power bar recipe, do we have a deal? 
Would the face then be able add his kinesics dice when rolling negotiation?

What if it went like this instead:
Ghoul face: alright friend sounds good and all. We will accept to run for 35k, if you give us 10k up front right now.
Would the face then be able to use his authorative tone to gain bonus dice on his negotiation roll

Title: Re: Most challenging character concepts that works?
Post by: ShadowcatX on (08:42:30/02-18-18)
The adept powers should come into play when you said. But you will also be taking penalties du to prejudice against HMHVV positive individuals a lot of the time. Assuming they don't react with nuke it from orbit.