[Thrass]

If I have magic 6 and I am in a background count of 4 may effective magic rating is decreased to 2, so the maximum spirit force I can summon is 4, but the spirit immediately get's weakened by the background count, ends up force 0 and get's disrupted, so he vanishes.

Is this correct?

[Black]

hhmmm... I will let someone else weigh in on the rules.. because that seems right...

But then, one should always summon spirits before entering an area with a background count.

[mtfeeney = Baron]

Looks correct, yes.

[Mason]

Uhm...I would think the spirit is actually Force 6, and comes in as Force 2. When you leave the background count, everything returns to its former Force. If it isn't, then everyone will just always summon their spirits and cast their spells before entering the background count.

EDIT: So, yeah, just went and checked it, and you are exactly correct as to what happens. The spirit is Force 4, so it enters at no Force and is disrupted. and then your reputation with the spirit world is harmed. Spirits are insanely vulnerable to background counts. So, cast your spells and summon your spirits beforehand.

[Falconer]

Mason is correct...  the exact text is...
"... in areas with background count, so the absolute value of background count is also added to the Force whenever the character resists Magical Drain."

The force 2 spirit within the BGC gets 4 extra force/dice to resist the summoning with.    So mechanically it's no different than if you summoned a force 6 outside the BGC then ordered it in.  (except that you're rolling a lot less dice on the summoning since your magic is reduced).  It's only a penalty to you to attempt to summon/bind within a BGC.

If you cast a force 2 spell while within a BGC4... it would have calculate drain as if it were 4 points higher in force as well.

[Thrass]

Mason is correct...  the exact text is...
"... in areas with background count, so the absolute value of background count is also added to the Force whenever the character resists Magical Drain."

The force 2 spirit within the BGC gets 4 extra force/dice to resist the summoning with.    So mechanically it's no different than if you summoned a force 6 outside the BGC then ordered it in.  (except that you're rolling a lot less dice on the summoning since your magic is reduced).  It's only a penalty to you to attempt to summon/bind within a BGC.

If you cast a force 2 spell while within a BGC4... it would have calculate drain as if it were 4 points higher in force as well.

So I can summon a froce 2 ghost that is a force 2 ghost but is as hard to summon as a force 6 ghost... what happens If the spirit leaves the Background count afterwards?
Is it effectively a spirit with force 6?

[Mantis]

If you summon a force 2 spirit in a BGC higher than 1, such a spirit will never arrive as it is disrupted by the BGC. If you summon a force 2 spirit outside a BGC higher than than its force and take it into the BGC, the spirit is disrupted. If you summon a force 2 spirit in a BGC of 1 it will be a force 1 spirit effectively in the BGC and when you take it out, it goes to force 2.
Spirits don't gain extra force by going out of a BGC, they only lose effective force by going into one. Your example would never happen as you can't call force 2 spirits in a BGC higher than 1 without disrupting them.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

Mason is correct...  the exact text is...
"... in areas with background count, so the absolute value of background count is also added to the Force whenever the character resists Magical Drain."

The force 2 spirit within the BGC gets 4 extra force/dice to resist the summoning with.    So mechanically it's no different than if you summoned a force 6 outside the BGC then ordered it in.  (except that you're rolling a lot less dice on the summoning since your magic is reduced).  It's only a penalty to you to attempt to summon/bind within a BGC.

The spirit doesn't get extra dice from the BC to resist summoning, it just gets those extra dice to cause extra Drain.  This is where the GM will have to track dice pools separately.

Example:  You normally have Magic 5, and you're in a BC of +/- 2, so you're effectively Magic 3.  You can attempt to summon up to Force 6 within the BC (and above Force 3 is oversummoning).  Needing some extra help, you attempt to summon a Force 6 spirit.  The spirit rolls 6 dice (just its normal Force, because it hasn't arrived yet) to resist summoning.  Then it rolls 2 more dice for the BC; hits on these dice do not resist the summoning, but they do increase Drain.  Assuming the spirit is successfully summoned, it is reduced to Force 4 (its normal 6 minus 2 for the BC) while it is in the BC.

[Falconer]

Actually no... continue down the BGC rules past the drain portion to the section where things are going in and out.  The part where it provides a list of exactly what kinds of spells, spirits, etc... have their force reduced when they enter a BGC.   And which ones of those have their force restored when they leave (spirits, foci, wards, quickened spells)..

The spirit isn't being 'made' inside the BGC... it's being summoned into the BGC from somewhere else.  It has a home metaplane and all.  The rules never state where the spirit 'makes' it's resistance roll.    You summon a spirit and 'fail' it just ignores the cell phone ringing in it's head and never leaves it's lazy boy on the home metaplane... or maybe it comes anyhow to beat you silly for annoying it.

Similarly, those rules do state that spirits do regain force when they leave a BGC.



So think about it this way... a magic 6 mage, with 4 summoning... rolls 10 dice normally to summon a force 6 spirit.   The spirit rolls 6 dice and the drain is stun.

The mage steps into a BGC4... things go tits up and he panics... he now summons the same spirit...  rolls only 6 dice to summon a force 2(6 outside the BGC).   The spirit still rolls 6 dice and the drain is stun.

Net effect... mage is less likely to succeed in summoning the spirit in the first place in his weakened state (less than 50/50 since he loses ties).   He'll still take exactly the same drain.   And the spirit will owe less services because of the mages penalized summoning pool and the spirit will be far less effective inside the BGC.  So yes the BGC has a substantial effect.

If the spirit leaves the BGC... the BGC rules state the spirit regains a point of force for each point of the BGC... so this makes perfect sense.

[All4BigGuns]

If you summon a force 2 spirit in a BGC higher than 1, such a spirit will never arrive as it is disrupted by the BGC. If you summon a force 2 spirit outside a BGC higher than than its force and take it into the BGC, the spirit is disrupted. If you summon a force 2 spirit in a BGC of 1 it will be a force 1 spirit effectively in the BGC and when you take it out, it goes to force 2.
Spirits don't gain extra force by going out of a BGC, they only lose effective force by going into one. Your example would never happen as you can't call force 2 spirits in a BGC higher than 1 without disrupting them.

And here is a perfect example of my problems with 'background count'. If one goes by the 'fluffy' stuff, then practically the entire world is Background 1 or 2, which would mean that no magician anywhere will ever be able to be at their full strength magically.

[Thrass]

Yeah I got a GM that kinda always applies this, people regularly drink beer here, so it's a background count 1, fluff.

[Mithlas]

There are ways of dealing with pervasive background count (as you're describing with places like 'people regularly drink beer here') without having messy "everybody awakened looses power". Look on the sidebar in street magic where it mentions that some aspects are neutral, or positively or negatively inclined to certain traditions. Most would have no problem.

You could also take a looser interpretation of background count where there's static there but it only adds 1 to the drain you have to resist and doesn't impact other things because it's not strong enough to disrupt basic spellcasting/conjuring. Depends on the storyteller and the table.

[Falconer]

Or you could just take the cleansing metamagic and make the whole problem go away for a little while.

Really... pervasive background counts of very low strength are only a problem to mages dependent on foci or spirits... and who are too cheap to invest in some inititions and metamagics.