[FastJack]

I guess I'm just not understanding the confusion.

Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation. A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute—so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes. In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 (their starting Force) at the start of character generation.

Yes, a summoned spirit has its attributes set by it's force the time of summoning. But Free Spirits are ones that don't have a Metahuman master calling the shots, so they are more individualistic.

[The_Gun_Nut]

It looks pretty black and white.  Where was the confusion?

[Frankie the Fomori]

Good day runners, I posted RAW responses from the author of this section and by Synner over at dumpshock forums. There was also an example used by a poster and Aaron ( who was the author ) said the build was correct. So there is no debate about RAW build of the free spirit PC, Doc chaos and Fastjack are right, you pay 250 for the base 2 stats and then increase force to the maximum Chargen rating of 6 then you would follow that by raising each attribute 1 point at a time for 10BP. When I get to my computer I will post the link to dumpshock, but it is under Free spirit NPC and the quotes start at Page 7 by Naga nuyen(me on dumpshock)

FYI free spirit is one of the quickest builds for Chargen, for a 400 BP build it looks like the highest force attribute and edge could be 5, drain attributes would be 4 each and then the rest stay at 2. I will post my PC version here once I am done with him, but I did a quick dirty build on dumpshock that could be used as a guide. Good day chummers

[FastJack]

Here ya go, Frankie

[Frankie the Fomori]

Lol quick like death adder FastJack, I am about as good with computers as the way I wrote up frankie's PC stats. When I post the free spirit PC it will include a full backstory and is actually someone I would love to play with. Yeah they start out weaker then most PC stat wise they have no natural maximum for there stats, once you initiate the sky (and karma) are the limit. That and I think playing s PC that us a walking amnesia negative quality would be a he'll of a challenge

[Doc Chaos]

I guess I'm just not understanding the confusion.

Or, I suppose, the answer could be "maybe."  Since it states that it sets the natural minimums and maximums of your starting attributes, there's a school of thought that you are correct (and raising it raises them all).

It's up to debate, and can be read either way, really.  Personally, I think it's more balanced to go for the "no" camp, but I can see it going either way depending on what flavor/feel of game a GM wants to go for.  It's sort of in errata limbo right now.

*shrugs*

[Critias]

I guess I'm just not understanding the confusion.

Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation. A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute—so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes. In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 (their starting Force) at the start of character generation.

Yes, a summoned spirit has its attributes set by it's force the time of summoning. But Free Spirits are ones that don't have a Metahuman master calling the shots, so they are more individualistic.

It really depends on which sentence you want to bold.  Do you go with the beginning of the paragraph, or the end?

The problem with Free Spirits is their character creation seems to work so differently than everyone else's, that they should have really been nit-picky when going over this section...and instead, we get a single paragraph that contradicts itself at either end.

[Frankie the Fomori]

I agree that it is poorly worked up PC race, there are so many exceptions to regular BP CharGen. I would love to see a developer or play tester design one PC that the rest of the community could use as a guide line.  Even with what I found by Aaron and Synner are roughly 2 years old.

On a side note it is cool Synner changed the ruling on health spells effecting the spirit, that and there ability to spend edge means unless someone is banishing  the spirit they are nearly immposable to kill. Distrupting them seems easy though lol.

[FastJack]

But the minimum is because the Spirit starts with a Force attribute of 2. That sets the minimum. Raising the Force attribute raises the Maximum. The attribute minimums are not set to be the Force attribute.

[Critias]

But the minimum is because the Spirit starts with a Force attribute of 2. That sets the minimum. Raising the Force attribute raises the Maximum. The attribute minimums are not set to be the Force attribute.

Except that, again, if that's there intent -- and I'm not saying it is or isn't, trust me -- it's poorly phrased.  "This attribute [Force] determines a free spirit's natural minimums and maximums for all attributes."  That's what it says.  Not "the starting value of this attribute," or "at this very early step in character creation, this attribute," or "When it's at two, this attribute," or anything else.

It just says this attribute, and then goes on to explain that it sets minimums and maximums.  Later in the paragraph it only says maximums -- but it's really up to any individual read (and as such, the balance of any given game table) as to whether or not the word "minimums" is then just thrown out and ignored, as you continue to read.

If it's there intent that attributes start at 2, and need to be bought up later -- and it may very well be, like I said I'm not saying that's wrong -- then it would have been much cleaner, and even taken less words, to say "A free spirit's attributes, including Edge, Magic, and Force, all have a minimum of 2.  Throughout play, their attributes have a maximum of their Force score, which has a natural maximum of 6."

[FastJack]

I guess I can understand the confusion. BUT, the rules lawyer in me (and he's a doozie, let me tell you), is looking at this and saying that it's a loophole. Can they put it in errata and close the loophole? Sure. But it's still just a loophole and not an error. *shrug*

[Mäx]

I guess I can understand the confusion. BUT, the rules lawyer in me (and he's a doozie, let me tell you), is looking at this and saying that it's a loophole. Can they put it in errata and close the loophole? Sure. But it's still just a loophole and not an error. *shrug*

It not a loophole, it's a rule that makes free spirits actually playable instead of total jokes.

[FastJack]

Okay, so you're playing a character that is dual-natured, has immunity to Normal Weapons, can shift to the Astral at any time and not worry about a physical form that can be injured while he's there, can have a number of Spirit powers that include Weather Control, Regeneration, Fear and others*. And you think they are total jokes because you have to spend points on Attributes?



*Edit: Oh, and none of these costs you build points.

[Mäx]

Okay, so you're playing a character that is dual-natured, has immunity to Normal Weapons, can shift to the Astral at any time and not worry about a physical form that can be injured while he's there, can have a number of Spirit powers that include Weather Control, Regeneration, Fear and others*. And you think they are total jokes because you have to spend points on Attributes?

Total joke yes, as my summoner can have a multiple of spirits bound at chargen that are all better then a free spirit pc.

[Frankie the Fomori]

As far as the author and the head of game design (at the time)  there is one RAW way of making a spirit PC, take base stat of two, raise force to the maximum of 6 in CharGen, then raise his other stats up as desired. There are no loop holes, no bending of sentences to make it better or worse. If you wish to propose a different method please post it as a house ruling for that is what it is. The free spirit may not stack up to allot if fellow PC's on creation and that it seems that was done on purpose. They are rare and after a time when most PC's reach a roof on there growth curve they will continue to get stronger and stronger. This, among so many other innate abilities, make them a very interesting playable race for those that want to take on the challenge of the initial gaming.

To me they are written up well enough and provide amazing gaming possibilities, you may disagree and I value your opinion but for the sake of RAW it is simple and straight forward as posted above, goodday chummers