[Jeeves]

When making a free spirit character, force starts at two, which dictates all their starting attributes. By raising force with build points, would i be raising all the other attributes at the same time?

[Doc Chaos]

No. By raising the Force attribute you are raising the natural maximum for the other attributes. You have to by them up seperately.

[Critias]

Or, I suppose, the answer could be "maybe."  Since it states that it sets the natural minimums and maximums of your starting attributes, there's a school of thought that you are correct (and raising it raises them all).

It's up to debate, and can be read either way, really.  Personally, I think it's more balanced to go for the "no" camp, but I can see it going either way depending on what flavor/feel of game a GM wants to go for.  It's sort of in errata limbo right now.

[Doc Chaos]

Well, my aproach is, they wouldn't have written

A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute - so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes.

if free spirit PC wouldn't have to still buy up attributes.

[Mäx]

Well, my aproach is, they wouldn't have written

A free spirit’s Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attribute - so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes.

if free spirit PC wouldn't have to still buy up attributes.

Well thats also debatable, if raising force raises al your attributes, then you clearly have to raise it if you want to raise the other attributes .

And really thats the only reading that makes Free spirts a playable option, the other one makes them jokes and also different(for no apparant reason) from every other spirit in the game
Its pretty pathetic if an other player can start game with multiple bound spirits that are all better then you in almost every way imaginable.

[Doc Chaos]

You mean besides a human wit and the ability to roam the earth however they please?

[Mäx]

You mean besides a human wit and the ability to roam the earth however they please?

Neither of which is much of an help on a shadowrun.

[Doc Chaos]

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[Critias]

In my opinion, starving them for attributes makes them tagalong party buffers, more than individual characters.  They'll float along with everyone else and use Conceal, Guard, etc, etc, to make the rest of a Shadowrunning crew pretty badass, but they'll be too short on attributes and skills to be much more than that.

Giving them all their attributes as they increase Force, on the other hand, makes them certainly more independently viable as stand-alone characters, by which I mean they're suddenly good for quite a bit more than just being the, I dunno, party Bard/buff...they'll have saved enough points to have reasonable skills, and with great attributes across the board they'll be able to cast and soak Drain well enough they'll be a solid direct-damage addition to a group, not just a buffer.

But they'll get it for pretty danged cheap, and can certainly imbalance a game that way (going with my gut).

So take your pick.  One way kind of screws the Free Spirit but helps a group of Shadowrunners, the other way makes it a little more fun/active for the Free Spirit PC, but perhaps at the expense of the party balance. 

[Doc Chaos]

Well, since I am of the opinion that the whole concept of PC free spirits should never have seen the light of day, I might be a little biased towards the "you have to still buy up attributes" version.

[Max Anderson]

A possession based free spirit could still manage to be useful, even if he has to buy his attributes, since the Force is used to determine the bonus given to the vessel. So really, Physical attributes would only be optional...

But yeah, creating a Free Spirit character is either a pain (if you go the hard way, having to buy all your attributes), or a joke (you can make a pretty powerful spirit if you only have to raise its Force...)

[Mäx]

(you can make a pretty powerful spirit if you only have to raise its Force...)

With that method you can make a character who isn't a total joke compared to bound spirits your fellow team member can start the game with, but the ones he can summon ingame are still better then you, but atleast not as much as with the other method.

[Doc Chaos]

Something that just crossed my mind, regarding the "attributes = Force" approach: at chargen you can only max out one attribute. But if you max. Force at chargen you max every attribute. So would that be legal?

[FastJack]

The Force attribute only determines the maximum of the other attributes (including Edge). So, if you max out Force at 6, it just means the other attributes new maximum is 6, but they still have to be raised from their natural 2's.

[Doc Chaos]

The Force attribute only determines the maximum of the other attributes (including Edge). So, if you max out Force at 6, it just means the other attributes new maximum is 6, but they still have to be raised from their natural 2's.

Thats my interpretation, but if you read the thread, there are people who disagree on this.