Author Topic: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line  (Read 27598 times)

Grinder

  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 99
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #30 on: (04:14:59/04-29-11) »
That.

Is fucking idiotic. Part of Critias' entire reasoning for this book is based on the objective fact that starting and low karma adepts are utterly neutered compared to street sams, especially compared to previous editions.

Nice how you try to understand the motivation behind such a request. But yeah, go on with advertising Adeptrun.

Critias

  • Freelancer
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2522
  • Company Elf
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #31 on: (04:48:10/04-29-11) »
That.

Is fucking idiotic. Part of Critias' entire reasoning for this book is based on the objective fact that starting and low karma adepts are utterly neutered compared to street sams, especially compared to previous editions.

Nice how you try to understand the motivation behind such a request. But yeah, go on with advertising Adeptrun.
Grinder, there's a world of difference between the request for a new book, and the backhanded way in which the request was made.  "AdeptRun" has been bandied about pretty much ever since the prices for the Adept Quality were first shown when SR4 hit shelves.  "Magic trumps all" is a far cry from "Adepts trump all," though, at least in my opinion.

Do me a favor, in fact, and take a look at the actual page count allocated to Adepts (not Mages).  I bet you'll be surprised just how little ink they get.  Find me the number of threads arguing about how overpowered Adepts (not Mages) are .  Find me all the qualities that lower the prices of Adept powers (the way Biocompatability or Type O System do for mundane gear), or the package deals and other options that let Adepts get more even as a starting character (the way Cyberware Suites or Alpha-Delta grade 'ware do).  Find me the last time someone asked for Adept build advice on either major Shadowrun forum and they weren't imemdiately told to suck it up and get some cyberware or bioware because it was cheaper, easier, and more effective than the magical alternative.  Find me any characters that got hit harder by the change in attribute increase costs when SR4A hit (because now it wasn't just harder for Adepts to spend Karma and increase their stats the old fashioned way, it was much more expensive to increase Magic and try to increase their stats through their powers).

Compared to the amazing versatility and potential of full-on spellcasters (which is probably the number one complaint about the current state of the game) and the out-of-the-box versatility and ability of well-crafted mundane characters, Adepts -- Pornomancer silliness aside -- have really kind of been the redheaded stepchildren of SR4A, in my opinion.

So here's a book entirely full of optional rules (which means we're certainly not cramming them down anyone's throat or fundamentally changing the nature of the game universe) that tries to rectify that, inasmuch as that's possible to do in less than 15 pages.  The sad thing, to me, is that this 15 pages pretty much doubles the page count you'll find dedicated to Adepts (seriously, just go check the index in SR4A).

Now, you may not agree.  You may not think Adepts need the help, you might have them completely overrunning your local gaming meta-scene, you might have 'em coming out your ears and think they're overpowered, and that's just fine!  That's why these are entirely optional rules, so no one's gonna hold a gun to your head and force you or anyone you play with to use 'em.

You don't have to like the book.  I wish people would, but I understand that it is, like any product, not for everyone and not everyone is gonna like it.  I do wish people would at least give it a shot, though, instead of just rolling their eyes and complaining about "AdeptRun" when, in my opinion and the opinion of quite a few other people, SR4 has been anything but
« Last Edit: (05:54:21/04-29-11) by Critias »

John Schmidt

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #32 on: (09:57:41/04-29-11) »
@Crimsondude: Let us take a deep breath, count to ten and relax.

@Grinder: For those of us who intentionally avoid Dumpshock, like the plague, having select bits from there reposted on this forum is not going to garner our love and adulation. And if it persists...may be deemed by myself to be trolling.
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

savaze

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
  • I'm a zombie/quadriplegic hybrid
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #33 on: (11:34:12/04-29-11) »
Great you made me break my no buying pdf-only rule... It was worth it!

CanRay

  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • *****
  • Posts: 10939
  • Spouter of Random Words
    • CanRay's Artistic Work
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #34 on: (11:42:05/04-29-11) »
I said "Screw the budget" and got it, gave it a quick read.  So far, nothing I see is too over-powered and does give some meat to Adepts.  I still don't see how this product is going to turn the game into "AdeptRun" like some people fear, however.  But that's just me, I'm a ROLE player.  I make characters for "Rule Of Cool" rather than to try and "Win The Game", which is where I feel a lot of the hate seems to come from.  (I could be honestly mistaken.  WOW!  Someone who will admit that on the INTERNET!  It's a sign of the apocalypse for sure!).

Anything that adds options is a good thing in my mind, it gives more character to the storyline, more flavour, more life.  The problems happen when there's contradiction of things, but Shadowrun is one of the few products where that's actually built into the universe itself.  (Remember:  All the posts and comments are made IN CHARACTER which means that they can be quite badly off.).

Rules-wise, I'll have to read it more in depth.  That's always been a bit harder for me, despite putting on the GM hat.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

grimjaws

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 123
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #35 on: (11:52:36/04-29-11) »
Thanks Critias and FastJack for the clarification, apparently I was just having one of those moments in understanding.

Something tells me a follower of Bear would be a force to be reckoned with.
Regardless of what other bundles of powers they choose to discount (like a Bear adept working hard on being an excellent medic/doctor), Totem's Way followers do get access to the Berserk power at a discount.  I'm just sayin'.  ;)
This is exactly where I first went with a character idea, not your typical magic band-aid.  ;D
SR1+ SR2 SR3 SR4+++ h b++ B-- UB- IE- RN--- !W sa++ ma++ sh+++ ad+++ m+++ e- o++ t++ gm+ M- P-

Makki

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 566
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #36 on: (12:08:31/04-29-11) »
for clarification:
I can still put geas(a) on these powers to get an effective 50% discount?
it's nowhere in the pdf, so I guess it's stackable. and usually we add the discounts together rather than multiplying one after another...

Grinder

  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 99
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #37 on: (12:28:39/04-29-11) »
@Grinder: For those of us who intentionally avoid Dumpshock, like the plague, having select bits from there reposted on this forum is not going to garner our love and adulation. And if it persists...may be deemed by myself to be trolling.

Wasn't meant to be trolling, I apologize if I gave the impression. Wesley's words just matched my thoughts on the matter exactly, that's why i quoted him.

Grinder

  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 99
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #38 on: (12:34:43/04-29-11) »
Grinder, there's a world of difference between the request for a new book, and the backhanded way in which the request was made.  "AdeptRun" has been bandied about pretty much ever since the prices for the Adept Quality were first shown when SR4 hit shelves.  "Magic trumps all" is a far cry from "Adepts trump all," though, at least in my opinion.

Do me a favor, in fact, and take a look at the actual page count allocated to Adepts (not Mages).  I bet you'll be surprised just how little ink they get.  Find me the number of threads arguing about how overpowered Adepts (not Mages) are .  Find me all the qualities that lower the prices of Adept powers (the way Biocompatability or Type O System do for mundane gear), or the package deals and other options that let Adepts get more even as a starting character (the way Cyberware Suites or Alpha-Delta grade 'ware do).  Find me the last time someone asked for Adept build advice on either major Shadowrun forum and they weren't imemdiately told to suck it up and get some cyberware or bioware because it was cheaper, easier, and more effective than the magical alternative.  Find me any characters that got hit harder by the change in attribute increase costs when SR4A hit (because now it wasn't just harder for Adepts to spend Karma and increase their stats the old fashioned way, it was much more expensive to increase Magic and try to increase their stats through their powers).

Compared to the amazing versatility and potential of full-on spellcasters (which is probably the number one complaint about the current state of the game) and the out-of-the-box versatility and ability of well-crafted mundane characters, Adepts -- Pornomancer silliness aside -- have really kind of been the redheaded stepchildren of SR4A, in my opinion.

So here's a book entirely full of optional rules (which means we're certainly not cramming them down anyone's throat or fundamentally changing the nature of the game universe) that tries to rectify that, inasmuch as that's possible to do in less than 15 pages.  The sad thing, to me, is that this 15 pages pretty much doubles the page count you'll find dedicated to Adepts (seriously, just go check the index in SR4A).

Now, you may not agree.  You may not think Adepts need the help, you might have them completely overrunning your local gaming meta-scene, you might have 'em coming out your ears and think they're overpowered, and that's just fine!  That's why these are entirely optional rules, so no one's gonna hold a gun to your head and force you or anyone you play with to use 'em.

You don't have to like the book.  I wish people would, but I understand that it is, like any product, not for everyone and not everyone is gonna like it.  I do wish people would at least give it a shot, though, instead of just rolling their eyes and complaining about "AdeptRun" when, in my opinion and the opinion of quite a few other people, SR4 has been anything but.

Well, I see where you are coming from and I don't think that Adepts Way introduces many shitty rules (or any at all9, but I dislike the impression it gives: that of power creep and "spend $5 to gain the latest power update to your class". If that's the path CGL wants to walk it's ok, but I would love to see a similar book that updates and improves the options available to cybered characters. That's all I want.

CanRay

  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • *****
  • Posts: 10939
  • Spouter of Random Words
    • CanRay's Artistic Work
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #39 on: (12:49:06/04-29-11) »
It could be worse.

We could have to buy booster packs of random cards in order to get spells, adept abilities, cybernetics, and so on...  Supplemental books for increased options for characters have been around for a long time.  At full price.

I'm trying to remember the one they had for power-creep back in the day.  Oh, right:  The Street Samurai Catalog.  :P

Of course, I'm sure people were complaining about having to buy the book to get the items inside of it back then too.  ;)
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Mystic

  • Freelancer
  • Omae
  • *****
  • Posts: 980
  • Word Mercenary
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #40 on: (13:03:23/04-29-11) »
Totem's way is basically another way to look at straight adepts. Where most adepts will claim their magic fuels their body simply through willpower and access to magic, Totem adepts call the boons "blessings" from their totems.

Sooooo, without having read the thing...yet *grin*, so I could technically take "Wise Warrior" as a totem for a Phys Ad??? 

And also, OK, I like the idea for this. The Physical Adept has been my favorite for a long time, but I have found you have to be VERY careful when playing them. More than once I've been steamrolled by a decked out sammy because it was easier for them to simply load up with cyber/bio. And I HATE the idea of having to, in my opinion, mix magic and select cyber. For me it kills the point of being an adept, especially a physical adept. And it can be frusturating to compete when you have to spend lots of karma on magic just to get a small bonus or power when all a sammy has to do is spend cash and use their karma on skills, attributes, etc. or get the same thing.

But hey, a suppliment for Sammys can be fun too, anything that adds a new dimention or flavor to the game is a good thing.
Bringing chaos, mayhem, and occasionally cookies to the Sixth World since 2052!

"Just because it's easy for you doesn't mean it can't be hard on your clients"-Rule 38, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries, Schlock Mercenary.

John Schmidt

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #41 on: (13:08:47/04-29-11) »
@Grinder: For those of us who intentionally avoid Dumpshock, like the plague, having select bits from there reposted on this forum is not going to garner our love and adulation. And if it persists...may be deemed by myself to be trolling.

Wasn't meant to be trolling, I apologize if I gave the impression. Wesley's words just matched my thoughts on the matter exactly, that's why i quoted him.

Thank you for clarifying that.  :)
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

CanRay

  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • *****
  • Posts: 10939
  • Spouter of Random Words
    • CanRay's Artistic Work
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #42 on: (13:11:37/04-29-11) »
Sammis, Deckers (Sorry, Hackers), Magicians, Faces, Gun Bunnies, and so on...  All options are available and open now!  We just need them written.

The part I really like about the PDF-Published items like this is, despite the fact that you have to buy "So many new items" is the fact that you can gauge your purchases better for your group!

Your group never has any Adepts, fine, don't buy "Way of the Adept".  Never uses drones, don't buy "This Old Drone".  And so on.  It certainly beats having to buy a whole sourcebook for one part that your group actually wants, and the rest just goes to waste and is never read by anyone but the book's purchaser, and that only once.

Of course, I'm insane and have a laser printer (A new one, that does Duplex Printing!   ;D ), so I can easily pump out PDF into Dead Tree Format in binders at a reasonable price.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

John Schmidt

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #43 on: (13:16:04/04-29-11) »
Of course, I'm sure people were complaining about having to buy the book to get the items inside of it back then too.  ;)

I for one really liked the Street Samurai Catalog.  :)

The question in my mind is it power creep or broadening the possibilities for players?

As for the magic trumps all view...I know one player who feels that 4th boned the magic users. It comes down to perceptions and expectations I guess.
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

John Schmidt

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
Re: The Way of the Adept kicks off Shadowrun Options line
« Reply #44 on: (13:22:56/04-29-11) »
The part I really like about the PDF-Published items like this is, despite the fact that you have to buy "So many new items" is the fact that you can gauge your purchases better for your group!

PDF's have become a favorite format for me. I can search through all of them quickly. Carrying them around is a breeze. Most importantly, I feel that the game industry has returned to it's origins...a cottage industry. There are more games available now than at any other time I can remember, some are less than great but others are innovative and truly impressive. Game companies can produce product quicker with a faster return on their investment for less outlay of cash and consumers have more options.
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.