[Datastream]

One of my friends for our upcoming game is working on the concept of a dwarf sniper. We're wondering how the quality "Hawkeye" interacts with other gear.

"The quality is part of characters’ natural eyes and is not compatible with electronic vision enhancements and/or cyber- or bioware augmentations or replacements"

If you replace your natural eyes, you lose the benefit seems straight forward enough. Also that electronic vision enhancement is out.

Can he still have smartlink connected straight to his eyeballs and retain Hawkeye? What about contacts that have features like image link, flare reduction and low-light vision?

If it's incompatible, is there any tech that offers the same benefits as the Hawkeye quality?

[Jack_Spade]

There is always optical gear - a scope with lenses should work with Hawkeye. Likewise laser sight and holographic sight.

[Datastream]

I'm trying to work out if the other gear is compatible or not. Being able to have Smartlink and not being able to have Smartlink drastically changes chargen gun choice. Likewise, if the character is unable to have image link then various aspects of the character need to change. It's unfortunate that there is a category "vision enhancements" and an upgrade "vision enhancements". From what I can tell, Hawkeye effectively provides your natural eye the benefit of vision enhancements and vision magnification all in one. I feel that the RAI is simply that these do not stack, which seems legit. If it excludes the character from gaining Smartlink and Image Link, I'd likely forget the quality and just buy some cybereyes with the whole package.

[Spooky]

IMO, it's better to get cybereyes, with the whole package, than it is to take the quality, unless your character is magic based.

[ShadowcatX]

Smartlink should work fine.

[Kiirnodel]

Smarting is an electronic vision enhancement. If it is installed it is a cyber augmentation. So Hawkeye is technically not compatible. Some GMs might let you use it, but RAW you can't.

[ShadowcatX]

Smarting is an electronic vision enhancement. If it is installed it is a cyber augmentation. So Hawkeye is technically not compatible. Some GMs might let you use it, but RAW you can't.

Only if you believe hawkeye prevents the use of the category "vision enhancement" rather than the actual item of "vision enhancement". Given that vision enhancement and hawkeye are both designed to do the same thing, and that smart link does something totally different, I do not see how that belief would be supported.

[Reaver]

Smartlinks work by using sensors to transmit data electonically to a computer which makes calculations and then electronically outputs that your eye to improve your aim....

Thats a lot of 'electronic' enhancement.... and what does the quality say?


On the flip side, a laser sight works by putting a little red dot on the target by projecting a beam from an emitter directly straight ahead. Requiring YOU to make manual adjustments for windage, range, bullet drop, and breath control, and movement (all things a smartlink does for you!)

Same thing with an optical scope as with a laser sight, execpt an optical scope doesn't project a beam, and usually includes optical magnification (from x1 to x12 or better). But again you need to know the range, windage, bullet drop, movement of the target.

Smartlink is like training wheels on a bicycle...

[Quatar]

Personally I think, that it's intended to apply to Vision Magnification, so you can't get a double reduction in range categories, and whoever wrote it had no idea what he was saying and confused the names.

But stuff like smartlink, imagelink and even the actual vision enhancement in contacts or glasses would work just fine. I see now reason why it wouldn't.

The way it's written you could argue that it's incompatible with a cyberarm, because that's a cyberware augmentation. Which obviously is complete bulldrek.

So I'd argue that even most cyberware that doesn't replace your actual eyes works. As a guideline: if it would make you lose Low Light Vision etc. you lose Hawkeye too, otherwise you keep it.

That is MY interpretation of the rule. As I said, by strict RAW a datajack or a biotattoo on your butt are enough to invalidate it.

[Kiirnodel]

I do think that the restriction is missing a "vision" in there somewhere to make it absolutely "clear" because yes, the restriction is obviously meant to apply to cyber- or bioware augmentations or replacements for your eyes.

But anything implanted in your eyes would qualify as an "augmentation" for your eyes.

I also think that it is perfectly reasonable for other electronic vision enhancements to ruin the ability for Hawkeye to work because of what it does: Your eyes are really sharp and precise, so much so that you get a +1 on sight and treat everything as one step closer. If you're using a visual display of any sort that reproduces images rather than purely optical ones it cuts off that extra ability you have with your natural eyes.

[Quatar]

I do think that the restriction is missing a "vision" in there somewhere to make it absolutely "clear" because yes, the restriction is obviously meant to apply to cyber- or bioware augmentations or replacements for your eyes.

Well of course it would only apply to eye augments, it doesn't make sense otherwise. My point was, you have to interpret the rule already, because otherwise it makes no freaking sense.

Which means you should also consider interpreting the other part of the sentence.

But anything implanted in your eyes would qualify as an "augmentation" for your eyes.

I also think that it is perfectly reasonable for other electronic vision enhancements to ruin the ability for Hawkeye to work because of what it does: Your eyes are really sharp and precise, so much so that you get a +1 on sight and treat everything as one step closer. If you're using a visual display of any sort that reproduces images rather than purely optical ones it cuts off that extra ability you have with your natural eyes.

Image link or smartlink don't reproduce the image though. They're an overlay that superimposes some additional information into your natural vision, and it doesn't matter if that's done through goggles, contact lenses or direct implant into your meat eyes. Why would this change how you see the rest of the world?

Vision magnification somehow has to reproduce the image though, as you're zooming in, there's no way around it, which is why I did say, I don't think those stack. Mostly for balancing reasons though, since reducing the range from Extreme to Medium is a +5 bonus, and that's crazy.

As for Vision Enhancement (the actual mod, not the category), this can take different forms. It could be that it replaces the image and makes everything sharper, but it's just equally conceivable that it simply highlights certain things here and there, drawing attention towards hard to spot things, etc, in which case I think it should totally stack. It's a bit of GM interpretation there.

As I said, take Low Light Vision as an example. Would Smartlink or Image Link take that away? No of course not. So why would "better eyesight" be taken away?

[Datastream]

So I'll assume this hasn't really reached a consensus before then? 

Hawkeye + Vision Magnification and/or Vision Enhancement (1-3) = Definitely out
Hawkeye + Cybereyes = Also out
Hawkeye + Smartlink / Image Link plugged straight into your eye ball = Maybe
Hawkeye + Image Link / Thermal / Flare reducing contacts / glasses = Also Maybe

[Kiirnodel]

So I'll assume this hasn't really reached a consensus before then? 

Hawkeye + Vision Magnification and/or Vision Enhancement (1-3) = Definitely out
Hawkeye + Cybereyes = Also out
Hawkeye + Smartlink / Image Link plugged straight into your eye ball = Maybe
Hawkeye + Image Link / Thermal / Flare reducing contacts / glasses = Also Maybe

That seems like a fair summation of the situation.

Image link or smartlink don't reproduce the image though. They're an overlay that superimposes some additional information into your natural vision, and it doesn't matter if that's done through goggles, contact lenses or direct implant into your meat eyes. Why would this change how you see the rest of the world?

I think it is a reasonable interpretation for just overlays to ruin the Hawkeye ability. I'm not saying it has to, just that it is within RAW and reasonable to interpret that any sort of augmentation ruins the natural Hawkeye ability. If a GM ruled that some vision devices don't, I wouldn't be against that either. Like a lot of things, GMs can make their own decisions on things and change from the rules. Technically, by RAW (barring the overt omission of specifying "cyber/bio vision augmentations") it seems pretty clear that they are saying you can't have any Vision Enhancements (note the plural, which indicates the category of gear; singular would be one that gives a dice bonus on visual Perception).

Vision magnification somehow has to reproduce the image though, as you're zooming in, there's no way around it, which is why I did say, I don't think those stack. Mostly for balancing reasons though, since reducing the range from Extreme to Medium is a +5 bonus, and that's crazy.

Totally agree, Hawkeye essentially gives vision magnification, it shouldn't stack with more vision magnification.

As for Vision Enhancement (the actual mod, not the category), this can take different forms. It could be that it replaces the image and makes everything sharper, but it's just equally conceivable that it simply highlights certain things here and there, drawing attention towards hard to spot things, etc, in which case I think it should totally stack. It's a bit of GM interpretation there.

Even if you think it is reasonable for the quality bonus to stack with the gear bonus, the mostly loosely held interpretation of the restriction definitely calls out vision enhancements as being incompatible. Not a GM interpretation to allow it, that's a GM re-rule to completely ignore the text of the restriction.

As I said, take Low Light Vision as an example. Would Smartlink or Image Link take that away? No of course not. So why would "better eyesight" be taken away?

To me, explaining the extremely harsh interpretation of the restriction is easy. Why is "better eyesight" taken away? Because sticking some foreign device into your eye alters its ability to function in the same way. Even if smartlink or image link don't "cover up" your entire vision, you now have little images in the foreground of your sight while you're trying to see in the distance. Have you ever tried to get an automatic camera to focus on a scene behind a mesh screen?