[ChewyGranola]

A quick blurb in Market Panic mentioned that Renraku has about 3 million corporate citizens out of around 80 million total employees. This seems low, at least to my previous interpretation of the fluff. It also mentions that Renraku has one of the largest citizen populations of the megas.
This kind of throws me for a loop. The facts at a glance “percent corporate affiliated” must mean something other than citizenship. It also leads me to believe that corporate citizenship has to be reserved for very particular people, so the guards and workers are just national citizens, even if they are living on extraterritorial land. Makes me wonder about legal implications, corporate enclaves, national citizens living on corp land, etc.
I’m kind of wondering on others thoughts on this blurb, and if there is maybe more info out there. To my knowledge, this is the first mention of a real number for corporate citizens.

[Reaver]

Admittedly, that does seem rather low..

But then again, think about it. A Mega Corp has the choice to extend its citizenship as a reward or perk of the job. At the same time, that citizenship comes with costs to the company, so IF they are going to extend the Golden Key to you, you BETTER be worth it. Which means you better be very good at your job It also means that they are not going to make someone whose job could be done by a drone a citizen. So most low paying, paper pushing (or crate pushing!) employees will never get Corp Citizenship.

Most companies are pyramid structures, meaning there is one (or several), people that the top. Then there is a few Executives in charge of entire markets, followed by more people who manage various departments in those markets. Finally, there are managers who manage the various departments in the various buildings. and under them is the base of the pyramid who actually do the work.
Citizenship could kick in only for those Managers who run the building departments and up. Leaving 90+% of the workers without Citizenship.

*****


And this could tie into just why SR is a dystopia. Since a AAA mega is extra-territorial, they also have the right to set their own tax rates. so they could be charging "income and corporate" taxes on their employees cheques. Then the National Government comes along and taxes you again on your income! So effectively you pay double the taxes, reducing your take home income to a very low level, forcing you to work MORE to keep a diminishing slice of your paycheque.

[Mirikon]

'Corporate affiliated' is very different from 'corporate citizen'. The first term could refer to anyone who was an employee of a megacorp, as well as their immediate families and dependents, whether they have corporate citizenship or not. There are a lot of low-level jobs out there. Construction workers, factory workers, call center workers, and more. These people are often taken from local populations when you can, because it is basically free PR saying you're making jobs in the area. But that isn't going to be the kind of person you necessarily give corporate citizenship to, especially if you're a mega with a history of not-quite-overt racism and sexism like Renraku.

[farothel]

And there shouldn't be too many issues with non-corporate citizens living on corporate land, or citizens working in another country (which an AAA corp basically is).  In Europe there are many citizens from one country living and working in another country (one of the main issues with the current Brexit negotiations is just how these people will be treated and who has jurisdiction) or citizens living in one country and going to work in another (I've even done that for a couple of months).  So there are probably treaties in place for who pays taxes where, probably between the corporate court and the various nations.

Corporate citizenship is probably, as discussed before, only for the higher ups and certain other important citizens.  People working in secret R&D labs for instance, as by making them citizens, they can be kept on corporate land easier ('no, you're not getting a passport to go to the UCAS, you stay where you are right now').

[ChewyGranola]

Most of those reasons are in line with my own thoughts, as well. And thanks for the insight on cross border working. We don’t do a lot of that where I live.

I figured citizenship was for the elite, I just didn’t think it was that elite! So the lifestyles talked about in the last corporate book, the one for 4e, do you think that applies to citizens only or employees too? Do non-citizen employees enjoy the same level of benefits and social control, in your opinions?

[Reaver]

If you mean the Corp enclaves, I imagine that are only for Corp employees (they don't, however, have to be citizens), and again probably only for those above an entry level position. So Mary the accountant would be allowed to live in an enclave, while Sally the Janitor would not.

And if that Corp had any racist views (hate Orks, Trolls, etc) then they may be disallowed for that very reason as well.

[Rosa]

In historic terms it's probably like the Roman empire,  the majority of people in the empire were not roman citizens and it definitely came with some clear advantages being a citizen. However foreigners could earn citizenship for example through military service.

In the same spirit I disagree that citizenship would be just for the elite, some would inherit theirs while others would earn it. Making earning a citizenship only available to the top tier in the corporation would not be very smart, in stead if even the lowliest janitor had a theoretical chance to earn a citizenship through loyal and competent service over many years that would be a very strong incentive to keep both the masses loyal and productive. Also I'm fairly certain that the corporate militaries would copy the Romans to some extent in regards to rewarding service with citizenship.

All in all while most corporate citizens would certainly be valued employees I'm sure there would be enough ex-military as well as some long serving loyal low level employees that could be held up as the shining examples of what you could achieve if only you work hard and loyally long enough.

[farothel]

Rosa: I think you're right on that one, that some lower level people who were born in a corporation would have citizenship, including people on the way up.  But I believe that to ascend the corporate ladder above a certain point, you need to be a citizen (either by birth or given to you at that point or before).  Again, the Roman empire might serve as an example.  You could live inside it as a non-citizen, but you would never have any elected office or membership of the senate if you were not a citizen.

[SunRunner]

You dont have to be a citizen of the corporation to work for it and most low level jobs are filled by citizens of what ever physical country the facility happens to  be located in. For example a factory in Seattle would have mostly UCAS citizens working in it. Now they wont let you advance past a certain level on the corporate ladder unless you become a citizen. The discrepancy can also be related to them only counting full Corporate citizens. As if you look at the SINer negative quality they have a limited corporate SIN that is listed as being given to valuable employees and prospects. E.G. ohh your a mage, well sign this contract right here and accept your limited corporate citizen ship and we will pay for your college tuition to our best magical university and after you have completed 15 years of employment in good standing you will have the option for full citizenship. I suspect alot of the discrepancy is related to the half way point of limited corporate SINs as they may not be counted as full citizens but are definitely affiliated with said corporation.

[Senko]

Huh employee numbers seem really low now, I just looked up microsoft and woolworths and they only had around 100 thousand. I'd have imagined a global corporation with multiple arms and subsiduraries would be employing more in the region of 10 to 20 times that number but there you go. 3 million does seem a bit low as that's less than 1% still I suppose if you multiply that by 10 you get 30 million corporate citizens roughly between the big 10 which is a fair chunk of people and we're not even including the AA corps in that. Plus of course you can always have variance in that as I don't know how many corp citizens are in the other ones. Renraku for all I know may have the lowest amount of corporate citizens to general employees of any major corporation.

I do agree I don't see this being just limited to the upper elite though for one thing anyone born to a corporate citizen gets citizenship themself regardless of whether they're a high powered lawyer, a lazy janitor, a slacker named shaggy or just a kid too young to work. So that group by themselves are going to be accounting for a percentage of those numbers same with at least some are going to get it via buyouts as that's listed as part of the perks some corps offer when buying out a smaller oraganization.
I also personally do feel it would be offered to general employees as an incentive it wouldn't be common or easy to get but it would be there to provide an incentive for loyalty. Maybe one person a year "randomly" wins a lottery for corporate citzenship or its your reward for 40/50 years working for the corporation. That's just me though.

[Reaver]

Remember also that just because you were born into a Corp doesn't mean you get to keep your Citizenship...

Meaning, if the Corp decides, for whatever reason, to cancel your Citizenship (and they can!) you are royally screwed. People like to think that Corps play by the same rules as governments, they don't. All they care about is the bottom line. So if Ma and Pa are Corp Citizens and work long hours to get to that position, but little Johnny is just a lazy dumb shit who thinks he can ride it out may find himself without a SIN, without a job, and on the streets.

Remember folks, As a Corporate Citizen, you only have the rights that the Corp is willing to give you, and nothing more.

No Free Speech,
No Freedom of Religion,
No Right to Self Determination,
No Freedom of Assembly

If a Corp wants to make sneazing on Tuesdays a capital offense, its becomes a capital offense.


Basically, Corps are Nations within themselves and as such have their own laws, programs, and social order. They do NOT have to follow the laws or customs of the countries that surround them. (For good or bad).
Now, the writers have never listed out what laws each company has or doesn't have, but you can get a good idea by looking that the Corp Culture, and the nation that they originate from. But just expect them to cut out anything that would cost them money, productivity, or threaten their bottom line. (Like Freedom on Assembly, as that can lead to "collectives"; which is too close to "union" for any ccompany to like!)



This is one of the hardest concepts for many people to grasp as it runs counter to many people's way of thought or the feedoms that they have grown up with and take for granted. You see this everyday as well in the current news as well. How many times have you read a story of someone asking the government to get involved when some family member goes off to another country and "bad things happen"?? The sad reality is that in many cases, your government can do very little. Their power and laws end that their boarders, and the other countries laws take over...  (So, before you take that next vacation to the foriegn nation, do yourself a favor and brush up on their laws! it could save your hand! OR your life!)

 

[Rosa]

While all that is totally true any government be it corporate or national still only functions by the consent of those that they govern. Even the most oppressive governments still needs the majority of their subjects to believe in them either through fear or a genuine belief that this government is the best. Especially when the bottom line is your main concern does this become important,  because as everyone knows happy and content workers are more productive and loyal than those who would actually rather work somewhere else.  Unhappy and disloyal workers would have a much higher chance of being willing extraction risks or selling your company secrets to the competition,  all things that would hurt the bottom line.

So while they could indeed make any law they wanted on their own turf, I'm pretty sure that they do go to some lengths to actually make it seem quite normal to their employees. And this is also the reason why I'm sure that most if not all of them use awarded citizenships,  also to long serving loyal employees in fairly low level positions, as a way of fostering that desired level of Corp spirit and loyalty that they want from their employees for the sole reason that it's good for business.

I doubt very much that the megas would be so overt as to actually ban the right to assembly for example, in stead I think they would make some sort of Corp controlled union like organisation. Just look at how Hitlers Germany and the various communist regimes handled unions,  they controlled them rather than forbidding them.

Judging from the examples we have had from the various "culture" books over the different editions, from sports teams to trid programming it seems to me that the corporations actually do spend a lot of time and effort to make sure that their employees are indeed happy and content.

Like many other posters in this thread I'm also quite surprised that the actual numbers that we have are quite a lot lower than I would have expected as corporate citizenship actually gives them much more control over their employees,  whereas a UCAS citizen working for Renraku for example would be much much harder to control.

[farothel]

Like many other posters in this thread I'm also quite surprised that the actual numbers that we have are quite a lot lower than I would have expected as corporate citizenship actually gives them much more control over their employees,  whereas a UCAS citizen working for Renraku for example would be much much harder to control.

They are probably controlled in other ways, like being paid in corp scrip that can only be spent in corp stores on corp property.  Or even some form of debt slavery can be used for lower positions.  And lastly I don't think for the lower positions the jobs are plentiful (a lot of manual labour will be done by drones), so you can quit your job, but where will you go.  And how will you feed your family if your bank account is canceled and all you have is a cred stick with corp scrip that you can't spent anywhere.

[Reaver]

Which is exactly why Corp Script exists. And one doesn't have to look that far back to see other greay examples in history.

20 million dead in Russia during Stalin. 35 million dead during Mao. 1/4 the population of Laos under Polpot. Hundreds of thousands dead in North Korea. 30,000 personally shot in the back of the head by everyone's favorite T-shirt Socialist Che Guevara (sp).

History shows all you really need to rule is a stick and the willingness to use it.


But yes, Corps do do things to keep people happy. Be that corp sports teams for people to join and have pride in. Or a pharmacy that hands out NovaCoke. Or prostitution delivered right to your door from the Corp brothel.

But don't confuse this things as the "Freedoms and Rights" that many NA and European citizens have today.

[Senko]

See I'm not so sure about that specifically because they are corporations and want the highest bottom line they can get. Yes you can rule through fear but history shows those kind of regimes run into problems due to the limitations they put on people. Something that would be made worse in the heavily globalised world of Shadowrun with the most productive and valuable members needing by their very nature to have access to the rest of the world. Doctors, lawyers, scientists and many others all need access to the rest of the world's developments in order to get the most out of them and they'll have interactions with Corp citizens who aren't as valuable. Similarly a happy, productive worker is one who'll put the unpaid overtime in out of a sense of competitiveness and a desire to look good to the bosses anyway whereas an unhappy one will head home as soon as their hours are done.

Could a corporation issue corporate script, indentured slavery or revoke your citizenship for being unproductive? Yes without a doubt but why would they use such heavy handed techniques when there are other better options.
So Johnny the slacker is a corporate citizen and isn't producing anything why take away his citizenship when you can simply balance healthy care and other "services" so that there's an incentive to pay your way. Especially when setting the precedent for "we can take this off you" could backfire by making valuable citizens nervous.
Free health care ensures you don't spread a dangerous disease to others. 200 nuyen a month gets you proper treatment, 500 gets you good treatment, 1000 gets you optionals like dental and optical and so on. Unions as said are controlled and guided.
Everyone uses the Nuyen but our Corp has lower costs for Corp produced products vs external ones vs other corporate ones. Say cost to produce + 20/50/75 respectively.

The very fact their corporate citizenship is so low argues against them pushing their people too far because an indentured mage or worse one who sees their non magical kids/friends being forced into indentured servitude is a mage who's ripe for an extraction target and they'll definately have some interaction with non-corp citizens.

On the other hand if you don't take away citizenship except for crimes against the corporation that can be justified to the sheeple but limit it's awarding to the most valuable, special acquisitions and an occasional lucky lottery winner you get as seen here a much lower number of corporate citizens.

It's also supports by the sins system with a limited vs full corporate sin. Limited would like you said be awarded/removed fairly regularly a mage coming to work for Renraku would probably get limited citizenship for the duration of their employment then have it revoked, but a janitor who was born to full corporate citizenship would have their citizenship for life even if they were constantly bring held up to society as a shameful example of someone who had all the breaks and blew it. Which in itself is an effective method of control why take away their sin when you can socially shame them while simultaneously holding them up as an example of how you "only take away full citizenship if they commit crimes".