Author Topic: #Late to the party  (Read 393 times)

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#Late to the party
« on: (16:41:38/09-02-17) »
I don't know how I missed this, but dissonant TMs got streams before normal TMs did. DT 164

@.@ wow *golf clap*
Yeah, TMs got thrown in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube.
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FST_Gemstar

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #1 on: (20:13:46/09-02-17) »
 >:(

Tassyr

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #2 on: (20:37:05/09-02-17) »
Aight, as someone who normally plays Samurai (And once or twice an adept) what am I missing? I admit my knowledge about Technomancers is minimal here.

(As in, I know what they are, mostly what they can do, and that I usually ICly don't trust 'em. And the bare bones of their history.)
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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #3 on: (23:06:52/09-02-17) »
Streams are for Technomancers as Traditions are for Mages. In 4th TMs gained a handful of option in the matrix book. 5th's matrix book gave dissonant TM (think toxic mages) streams while regular TMs got next to nothing.
Yeah, TMs got thrown in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube.
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Marcus

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #4 on: (11:18:41/09-03-17) »
Yes, TM are screwed in 5th. This is news to no one.  The good news is an interview from gen-con reported that the techno book has been folded into the hacker expansion book scheduled for 2018 release.
So that some kind of progress.

There is one way to look at this, never in the history of SR, and that includes rigger who got kinda screwed for two whole editions has an archetype been so thoroughly abandoned, nerfed, even errata nerfed.
The TM book could very possible be as off the hinges as the TM 4th book, and that one resulted in TMs breaking the power curve of the whole game.
« Last Edit: (11:24:04/09-03-17) by Marcus »

Mirikon

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #5 on: (06:43:59/09-04-17) »
Except that TMs never broke the power curve of the game. It is the time honored comparison between someone who was adaptable, but fragile, against someone who was reliable, but less reactive. TMs had good burst potential, but if they ever got caught in a fight (in the Matrix or the Meat) they were hosed. And how many runs go by without any fighting? People only looked at "OMG THEY CAN GET RATING 12 PROGRAMS", and promptly pissed themselves in either terror or minmaxing glee, without looking at the whole picture. It is as bad as looking at a D&D character by their effectiveness in a single arena battle, instead of what they do in a dungeon crawl.
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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #6 on: (11:54:13/09-04-17) »
Lol rocks fall, you die.
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Shinobi Killfist

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #7 on: (12:35:20/09-04-17) »
Except that TMs never broke the power curve of the game. It is the time honored comparison between someone who was adaptable, but fragile, against someone who was reliable, but less reactive. TMs had good burst potential, but if they ever got caught in a fight (in the Matrix or the Meat) they were hosed. And how many runs go by without any fighting? People only looked at "OMG THEY CAN GET RATING 12 PROGRAMS", and promptly pissed themselves in either terror or minmaxing glee, without looking at the whole picture. It is as bad as looking at a D&D character by their effectiveness in a single arena battle, instead of what they do in a dungeon crawl.
Eh in our 4e game the technomancer broke things. Probably not more than a min maxed mage but he still did. It needed some correction but no where near the correction they got in 5e which made them fairly useless.

Mirikon

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #8 on: (16:23:40/09-04-17) »
Except that TMs never broke the power curve of the game. It is the time honored comparison between someone who was adaptable, but fragile, against someone who was reliable, but less reactive. TMs had good burst potential, but if they ever got caught in a fight (in the Matrix or the Meat) they were hosed. And how many runs go by without any fighting? People only looked at "OMG THEY CAN GET RATING 12 PROGRAMS", and promptly pissed themselves in either terror or minmaxing glee, without looking at the whole picture. It is as bad as looking at a D&D character by their effectiveness in a single arena battle, instead of what they do in a dungeon crawl.
Eh in our 4e game the technomancer broke things. Probably not more than a min maxed mage but he still did. It needed some correction but no where near the correction they got in 5e which made them fairly useless.
That was likely an artifact of the way your campaign was set up. I encountered similar arguments with Warlocks in 3.5 D&D. A Warlock had a few spell-like abilities that they could use at will, including a magic blast that capped out at 9d6 by level 20. Absolutely nothing compared to what a Wiz or Sorc can do at that level, but still consistent damage. There were people who freaked out about that, calling it overpowered. But when we discussed what their campaigns were like, they all said things like 'staying at low levels' or 'long, gauntlet-style dungeon crawls', which was basically like facing a power hitter, and then hanging a fastball belt-high over the middle of the plate. Don't be surprised when they go yard with it.

Without knowing anything about your game, I'd guess that you only had one, maybe two serious hacking 'events' per run, where the TM would need to sneak into the system without alerting spiders, or needed to brute force something when shit got real in the meat, and spent a lot of time on overwatch, editing feeds and blocking calls? And they usually stayed in the van? That kind of thing is right in the 4E TM's wheelhouse, maximizing their burst potential while limiting their combat exposure as much as possible, so it wouldn't be surprising if it felt game-breaking in that case.

Sometimes a thing can be balanced overall, but overpowered in your game, because of the things you emphasize or tend to ignore. So that makes it a good thing to look at before getting out the nerf bat.
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ShadowcatX

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #9 on: (18:18:26/09-04-17) »
Sometimes a thing can be massively over powered but people will say it is balanced because it is their favorite thing, or they just personally don't know how to break it.

Marcus

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #10 on: (19:35:48/09-04-17) »
Except that TMs never broke the power curve of the game. It is the time honored comparison between someone who was adaptable, but fragile, against someone who was reliable, but less reactive. TMs had good burst potential, but if they ever got caught in a fight (in the Matrix or the Meat) they were hosed. And how many runs go by without any fighting? People only looked at "OMG THEY CAN GET RATING 12 PROGRAMS", and promptly pissed themselves in either terror or minmaxing glee, without looking at the whole picture. It is as bad as looking at a D&D character by their effectiveness in a single arena battle, instead of what they do in a dungeon crawl.
Did you recall that book in question? They were amazing combatants able to generating very large pools for any skill on demand. Threading + Skillwires go look it up.

But I agree that amount of nerf we are seeing in 5th is way overboard. They made a lot of low level fixes for them (Like the smartlink complex form), and those should have been kept around, or at-least re-instated by now for love of the game.
« Last Edit: (19:46:46/09-04-17) by Marcus »

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #11 on: (20:05:08/09-04-17) »
Which was basically like facing a power hitter, and then hanging a fastball belt-high over the middle of the plate. Don't be surprised when they go yard with it.
Sounds like analogy Slamm-O would make :p
« Last Edit: (21:53:46/09-04-17) by 忍 »
Yeah, TMs got thrown in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube.
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Mirikon

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #12 on: (20:53:08/09-04-17) »
Except that TMs never broke the power curve of the game. It is the time honored comparison between someone who was adaptable, but fragile, against someone who was reliable, but less reactive. TMs had good burst potential, but if they ever got caught in a fight (in the Matrix or the Meat) they were hosed. And how many runs go by without any fighting? People only looked at "OMG THEY CAN GET RATING 12 PROGRAMS", and promptly pissed themselves in either terror or minmaxing glee, without looking at the whole picture. It is as bad as looking at a D&D character by their effectiveness in a single arena battle, instead of what they do in a dungeon crawl.
Did you recall that book in question? They were amazing combatants able to generating very large pools for any skill on demand. Threading + Skillwires go look it up.

But I agree that amount of nerf we are seeing in 5th is way overboard. They made a lot of low level fixes for them (Like the smartlink complex form), and those should have been kept around, or at-least re-instated by now for love of the game.
Threading and Skillwires was a decent combo, but one that took multiple submersions to be any use, since the rating of your biowires were equal to your Submersion rating. You're talking about something you can't do out of the gate, and requires a shit ton of Karma to set up. That's like complaining that a Mage with four Initiations all geared to one thing is more powerful than a straight out of chargen character. After more than a couple dozen karma, you're expected to be more powerful.

But even that is part of what I'm talking about with their burst potential. You could boost things with Threading, but you had to resist Fading, and the higher the new rating, the higher the Fading, which you took directly to your brain. A single bad roll on that could fuck you up for the whole run, much like what happens when a mage overcasts their spells. You can get kick-ass results, if it works. It wasn't reliable or safe, and was basically getting on both knees and begging Murphy to come down and screw with you.

Like I said, it is the difference between a glass cannon and swiss watch. The glass cannon can do a lot of damage, but it is easy to take them out. The watch, on the other hand, is more limited in what it can do, but it can do it all day long, and will take a licking and keep on ticking.

Adaptability vs. Reliability.
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Marcus

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #13 on: (23:10:03/09-04-17) »
Oh I agree it took a boat load of karma, you needed the initiative enhancements (overclock), the bioskill wires, and I think it was centering, and netfoci widgets maybe it was something like that; like 6ish submersions.  But we got one at the end of 4th. When a  character died and the player started their new character with group karma average. Yeah it was lot of Karma, but it was effective even vs fairly deep initiated mages. Part of the issue was the lack an real sort of non-TM hacking opposition at the time, and as i recall deep submersion just wasn't as deadly as astral questing. But combined with the sort of thing you could work up with basically near perfect information from deep submersion, or just being the unspeakable god of googling stuff, a small army of sprites and the super skill build it just crashed stuff. I accept your point that it's adaptive, but  it was way strong and certainly on the same scale of game breaking as several things we got out FA.

Agent_Juice

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Re: #Late to the party
« Reply #14 on: (06:56:35/09-05-17) »
I liked the idea of streams and Paragons, but I was kind of hoping they'd diverge technomancy from magic a bit more. Like magical traditions are organized (or disorganized if it's Chaos Magic) and define themselves by what they believe, but streams are more like categories TMs fall into without even trying. Any TM can believe resonance is the "Great Carrier Signal" for example. If he reads data on the signal he's a Sourceror, if he prays to it he's a Technoshaman, and if he puts it on his friends list he's a Networker. If he believes the Great Carrier Signal isn't possible, and Resonance is the One True Protocol, he can still be any of those streams.

If you want to look at it that way in 5e, you don't pick a stream at character creation, you decide how you deal with Resonance and the stream finds you. You don't need as much in the way of rules, like lists of sprites you can compile, but reaching out to your stream could have karmic benefits.