[CanRay]

So, with Street Lethal out (on PDF at least, and DTF at Origins), we now have rules that make Miniguns more than just a L/M/HMG (Page 41 if you want to get there fast.).

What do you folks think of those rules?

[Marcus]

I think they are reasonable and its nice to see the HVAR get some love, i always felt like it was sort of the redheaded step child when compared to the Alpha. But I guess I'm not sure what's really intended with Suppression fire. It's a nice way of saying going this was is dangerous, but I have seen a lot of character move through suppressed fire zones, ether avoiding or soaking as they go. Of course enhanced takes care of one of those, and i'm sure there are plenty of character who can't soak or otherwise avoid harming crossing those zones. But it seems more likely to cause large scale collateral damage then to be super effective at pinning in runners.

Does that make sense?

[CanRay]

I think they are reasonable and its nice to see the HVAR get some love, i always felt like it was sort of the redheaded step child when compared to the Alpha. But I guess I'm not sure what's really intended with Suppression fire.

Does that make sense?

Considering Runners have better body armor than your average joe, yeah.

Personally, I've always felt a Composure test should also be needed to get through a suppressed zone.  Yeah, you know your armor can take it, your metagaming brain knows that, but that little lizard part of your brain is sure the flame and spitty thing out there is going to get lucky and clip your non-helmet wearing head, or sneak in through a seam, or other weak part of your armor.  But that would have been too much to add into the rules.

I have it as a house rule, and some of my veteran players are, "Yeah, that makes sense", so I go off of their thoughts on the matter.

[Marcus]

I agree a composure test is very reasonable there. Getting shot has got to hurt, even if results in no real damage taken, not to mention the noise. If a troll was pointing a mini-gun anywhere generally in my direction the only thing on my mind would be get low right and get out right now.

[kainite311]

Agree, gattling/mini-guns need some love (and I have not seen Street Lethal yet), especially the ones that take a simple action to spin up before firing. When my players encounter suppressive fire the Street Sammy (if he had a chance to bring his SWAT version type armor) tends to walk thru it if it is from a machine pistol or other smaller then assault rifle weapon (especially if it's not APDS and he knows it). The only benefit the enemy gets is the negatives to his rolls for that pass. Then I am forced to either redirect the fire, or maintain on rest of party that isn't to 'tanky'... Hopefully getting Street Lethal within the next week or two...

[CanRay]

So, now that two rounds of purchases for the book in DTF and the PDF being on sale for a bit, what do people think about the rules?   

[Jack_Spade]

Honestly,
the German version of Run&Gun already had a speciality for HVAR and miniguns (4 shots on short burst 8 on long and 12 on full auto long). That has come up much more often then a situation where you needed to suppress a larger area.
So I think the new rule is rather meh in comparison.

[adzling]

We use our own houserule that offers either the double sized suppressive fire area OR full auto bursts of 20 rounds (We don’t permit miniguns to fire on anything except full auto).

[Tecumseh]

We're talking about the "suppress two zones instead of one" rule, yes?

I think it's fine, but highly situational, because in addition to a high-Availability minigun it requires targets in two zones (and enough of a game map to know that they're in two zones).

In order to make miniguns less situational, what I would have liked was a rule to upgrade the suppressive fire in a single zone. Options include:

1) Cover a single zone with enhanced suppression, per Run & Gun;
2) Require two successful and separate REA+EDG defense tests by defenders who don't drop prone, or make the defense test a single attribute (REA or EDG), or something else to reflect twice the bullets in the same space; or
3) Let the attacker's net hits stage the suppressive fire damage.

And so on. To me, those options seem useful without being game breaking, especially given the Availability of miniguns in conjunction with the cost of burning 40 rounds per Combat Turn.

[Marcus]

We use our own houserule that offers either the double sized suppressive fire area OR full auto bursts of 20 rounds (We don’t permit miniguns to fire on anything except full auto).

I think I'm failing to understand what the bold text implies.
I follow double the size suppression zones, and I follow the half zone that disallow dodge checks. But 20 round burst just seems like a really good way to run up Recoil count and waste a lot ammo without doing size-ably more damage.

[Reaver]

We use our own houserule that offers either the double sized suppressive fire area OR full auto bursts of 20 rounds (We don’t permit miniguns to fire on anything except full auto).

I think I'm failing to understand what the bold text implies.
I follow double the size suppression zones, and I follow the half zone that disallow dodge checks. But 20 round burst just seems like a really good way to run up Recoil count and waste a lot ammo without doing size-ably more damage.

Think the implications are two fold from the house rule (and intended)

1: to reflect the high cycle rate of a minigun, which has an adverse effect on ammo endurance (how long before you run out).

2: due to the high cycle rate, and thus the increase in lead, AND using the "not enough bullets" tab on page 180 as a guide; The minigun provides a DP modifier of -18.
(twice the standard FA burst) OR a doubled suppression zone, again because of the high cycle rate. 

***

If I am right, I like it. It gives HVAR and mini-guns a role again, shows an advantage for their ammo consumption, cost, and lack of concealment.



As to CanRay's original inquiry... I have yet to pick up Street Lethal

[Carmody]

2: due to the high cycle rate, and thus the increase in lead, AND using the "not enough bullets" tab on page 180 as a guide; The minigun provides a DP modifier of -18.
(twice the standard FA burst) OR a doubled suppression zone, again because of the high cycle rate. 

That would be -19 (-1 per bullet after the first one) ;-)

[Reaver]

2: due to the high cycle rate, and thus the increase in lead, AND using the "not enough bullets" tab on page 180 as a guide; The minigun provides a DP modifier of -18.
(twice the standard FA burst) OR a doubled suppression zone, again because of the high cycle rate. 

That would be -19 (-1 per bullet after the first one) ;-)

very true..

I did dem beers maths

[adzling]

correct Reaver!

we also use the optional rule in R&G that enhances DV by 1 for every 2 points past zero you reduce the target's dodge pool.

So for example if you shoot 20 rounds, defender's dodge pools is reduced from 12 to -7. That's a hit with only one net success and ramps the damage code up by +4 (counting the net hit).

you can manage crazy high recoil with the correct mods and enough strength.

but even if you take -2 or -3 to hit due to recoil it's still worth shooting the dang thing 'cause it's a firehose of bullets ffs.

which actually makes miniguns something to fear again.