Author Topic: Bow+Melee Hardening  (Read 461 times)

Marcus

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Bow+Melee Hardening
« on: (23:35:43/08-24-17) »
So any thoughts on what the melee damage rating for a bow with melee hardening should be?
I had been using Gun Stock which if I recall correctly is S+3(S), but I figured someone might have a better idea.


Mirikon

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #1 on: (23:37:33/08-24-17) »
Out of the available options, I would go with the Staff damage code, honestly, since that would be closest to a bow, I think.
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Marcus

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #2 on: (00:06:08/08-25-17) »
i do like that idea better.

Spooky

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #3 on: (15:05:03/08-25-17) »
+1 on the staff idea.
Spooky, what do you do this pass? Shoot him with my thunderstruck gauss rifle. (Rolls)  8 hits. Does that blow his head off?

Kiirnodel

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #4 on: (15:53:27/08-25-17) »
I agree with Staff, but I would probably give it the improvised weapon penalty (Accuracy 3). I think that actually makes the stats the same as the Gun Stock in Run & Gun. I might give it a circumstance bonus of +1 Accuracy (4 total), but it definitely shouldn't have the full 6 Accuracy of a normal staff. Bows just aren't designed to hit like a staff, and while melee hardening might make it be able to be used as a melee weapon without damaging itself, it doesn't make it any better designed to be used as one.

Spooky

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #5 on: (17:05:37/08-25-17) »
While I like that idea, Kiirnodel, I can also easily see a clubs specialization of melee bow, giving the same accuracy as a staff (witness the tv show Arrow) because advanced training, but only after melee hardening on the bow, and I think it should be a long bow style, rather than a compound bow. I can see a compound being more like a club, while a longbow is more like a staff.
Spooky, what do you do this pass? Shoot him with my thunderstruck gauss rifle. (Rolls)  8 hits. Does that blow his head off?

Kiirnodel

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #6 on: (19:55:51/08-25-17) »
Whether or not an object can be used as a weapon doesn't change the fact that it isn't as effective as a weapon actually designed to be used in melee. Remember, melee hardening just makes it capable of being used to hit people without damaging itself. It doesn't make it more accurate, or more effective as a melee weapon. It is still an improvised melee weapon.

Marcus

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #7 on: (09:18:53/08-26-17) »
I agree with Staff, but I would probably give it the improvised weapon penalty (Accuracy 3). I think that actually makes the stats the same as the Gun Stock in Run & Gun. I might give it a circumstance bonus of +1 Accuracy (4 total), but it definitely shouldn't have the full 6 Accuracy of a normal staff. Bows just aren't designed to hit like a staff, and while melee hardening might make it be able to be used as a melee weapon without damaging itself, it doesn't make it any better designed to be used as one.
Agreed, I was gonna do 4, but i'll see what it looks like at 3.

Shinobi Killfist

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #8 on: (09:35:09/08-26-17) »
Accuracy 3 is a hard road. A wage slave has a solid chance to get 3 hits on defense. That' works when something is supposed to be unusually clunky or maybe dies over the top damage but if Phil in accounting can parry 1/3 of your attacks it feels weird. I'd go 4.

Kiirnodel

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #9 on: (11:32:55/08-26-17) »
3 hits is average for a dice pool of 9. The average wageslave is likely to have at most 3's in their attributes. So they would have maybe 5 or 6 dice to defend, so not nearly as likely. Getting lucky on the roll is a perfectly valid reason for some schmuck to manage to dodge.

And don't forget there are ways to increase the accuracy, they still apply to the improvised use of the weapon, because you're planning to attempt to use it in melee.

Shinobi Killfist

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #10 on: (12:38:14/08-26-17) »
If you think a average person dodging roughly 1/3rd of the hits is fine for getting lucky I guess it works for you. To me it looks like almost any other option would be better which defeats the purpose of paying for melee hardening. To me improvised weapons are bows before hardened for melee. Now that it's built to deal with it it's not that awkward.

Marcus

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #11 on: (23:18:05/08-26-17) »
I'm gonna stick with 4. It seems reasonable to me. 3 pushes to 5 and 15 pool just isn't that interesting.

Kiirnodel

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #12 on: (01:18:24/08-27-17) »
The only thing I'll add, Shinobi Killfist, is that melee hardening doesn't make the weapon designed to be used in melee. It only makes it capable of taking a beating without breaking. The improvement is meant for firearms, but it even calls out that using the gun in Gun Kata it is still an improvised melee weapon.

I'm a seasoned archer myself, and I've swung around a fair share of long sticks (albeit not in the same sort of environment as the archery). And while I never would have tried to hit someone with one of my bows (because they aren't melee hardened), even if I wasn't worried about breaking it I can tell you it would be awkward and not nearly as accurate as a straight-up staff.

In action sequences like in Arrow, Oliver uses his bow to hit people fairly infrequently. Usually as part of some other maneuver, or "surprise" I still have this stick I can hit you with. There are plenty of times where he doesn't even bother using the bow and just punches with the hand holding the bow instead too.

Also, we forgot about reach, so those wageslave would only have at most 4 dice to defend (-2 from reach).

Mirikon

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #13 on: (04:27:50/08-27-17) »
Agreed. Using a bow as a melee weapon, whether hardened or not, would be an improvised weapon using the Clubs skill. I'd give it a 3 accuracy and a staff's melee damage.

Melee Hardening means you can hit someone with the bow and it won't break. It does not make a bow anything other than an improvised melee weapon (a category that also includes pistol-whipping and rifle butt stocks, IIRC).

Now, you could design a bow from the ground up to be manufactured as both a ranged and melee weapon, but it would be rare, expensive, and distinctive.
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Shinobi Killfist

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Re: Bow+Melee Hardening
« Reply #14 on: (17:02:09/08-27-17) »
I'm not arguing the logic of it as who knows what melee hardening means in a 60+ years in future setting.  But yes I doubt it would be as good as a staff. But I'm not sure it would be improvised either. It is improved to be able to be used in melee to some degree.

Mainly though, with the god awful mechanics of accuracy 3 on its own and that this is something a player is paying extra for.  I doubt the player is buying this so once a campaign he may decide to hit someone with a bow. They probably actually want to use the thing they bought and went out of their way to modify the weapon for. It's like the absolute idiocy of missle mastery. Players take that power to throw improvised weapons keeping them accuracy 3 negates why people spent a power point.