[marfish]

In addition to the confusion over the Gunnery skill, there is nothing to say what attribute it uses when fired by a jumped-in Rigger, and on page 183 where Gunnery is described, jumped-in riggers get no mention alongside manual and remote turrets. In the Drone Combat section in the Rigger section, it incorrectly states that Gunnery and Sensor Attack rules are on page 202 rather than pages 183 and 184.

There also appears to be no way to purchase higher grid access outside the one included in Lifestyle, although that may be intentional.

This should be one of the aged old questions...do you guys know any update about this?

[Sphinx]

Anyone firing a vehicle-mounted weapon manually uses Gunnery + Agility. Anyone using them remotely uses Gunnery + Logic. A rigger jumped into a vehicle or drone counts as remote operation, not manual, so it uses Gunnery + Logic.

[marfish]

Anyone firing a vehicle-mounted weapon manually uses Gunnery + Agility. Anyone using them remotely uses Gunnery + Logic. A rigger jumped into a vehicle or drone counts as remote operation, not manual, so it uses Gunnery + Logic.

Thanks, that help

[gradivus]

How sphinx plays it, is how I do.

However, there have been developers of the game that have given contradictory statements on this.
So be prepared that some tables play it differently.

[FST_Gemstar]

I play different. 

The rules are a big contradictory mess about rigger stuff, as are the developer statements. I try to stay as RAW as possible with it though, with some compromise options for more expansive play. 

Remote operation refers to AR/VR control device actions, and the Logic + Gunnery rule is specific only to using vehicle mounted weapons in this way. Other remote operations using control device use the regular attribute + skill tests for the device. Hot-Sim VR will get you +2 on these tests. Many GMs replace tests that use Agility and Reaction as base stats in VR to Logic and Intuition. This can make sense, but it is not RAW. 

When jumping-in, using a control rig, you use physical stats. If in hot-sim VR, you get a +2 bonus, and you get a bonus per your control rig rating.

So in all: 

Manual Control - physical/AR (but not control device):
  Attribute + Skill
  Physical initiative

Remote Control - AR/VR, using Control Device matrix action:
  Attribute + Skill   
  *Gunnery tests on vehicle mounted weapons particularly use Logic + Gunnery
  Initiative dependent on interface mode (AR, cold-sim VR, or Hot-sim VR)
  Hot-sim VR gets bonus +2
  Optional: Use Logic/Intuition as base attribute for tests that usually would use Agility/Reaction when in VR.

Jumped-in - VR, using Control Rig. 
  Attribute + Skill
  Initiative dependent on interface mode
  Hot-Sim VR gets bonus + 2
  Additional bonus dice based on control rig rating
  Additional bonus limits per control rig rating
  Reduction in thresholds per control rig rating.


In all, it seems that riggers are intended to use their physical stats when they merge with machine. This tends to make them more brawny characters than brainy ones in my book. While their base dicepools may be lower, they make it through Hot-sim bonus dice, control rig bonus dice, control rig limit/threshold modifiers, as well as not needing initiative boosting 'ware. They are still on top of the food chain for vehicle/drone/device control if everyone is RAW for their remote action (control device) tests and even if high mental stats folk use optional remote control rules in VR.

However, I am ok with riggers (who are not jumped in), and other folks (likely decker and technomancers), using mental attribute replacements when using control device in VR. 
   

[Kiirnodel]

Gemstar, can you provide a source for where you got the idea that Riggers specifically use their physical attributes for tests? The only example I can think of is Pilot tests, but everyone uses Reaction for piloting tests, so that isn't unique to riggers.

The Gunnery skill says to use Logic for remote operation, and there isn't an exception called out for Riggers. Remote (meaning: distant) operation would be any time the user doesn't have physical contact with the weapon, or using the weapon from a distance. Riggers, while they "treat the vehicle like an extension of their body" are still not physically present to operate the weapon non-remotely. For most tests that would require physical attribtues (again, exception for Pilot/Reaction), the Rigger still doesn't use their own attributes, but would use the vehicle's attributes, or at least the equivalent. A Str 7 Ork Rigger doesn't use their own strength when the vehicle does something that would be strength-based. You don't resist damage to the vehicle with your own Body. And so on.

[FST_Gemstar]

Re: Gunnery 

 "Remote Control is the result of the Control Device action," CRB 265, The Complete Control intro paragraph in the Rigger section. This to me the key differentiation between manual control and rigger control and key factor for what Remote Control means, it means Control Device.

In the Control Device description (238), it notes an example where firing a drone-mounted weapon requires a Gunnery + Agility test. Knowing that Control Device is a remote operation, and that you use Agility + Gunnery when remote operating a drone mounted weapon, I'd argue for a more specific interpretation of the the Gunnery rule specified on 183 to apply only to "Vehicle-mounted" weapons operated remotely (with Control Action).   

Rigger Physical Attributes: 

By using their physical attributes, I'm talking about skill tests you would would make when jumped-in. I'm not talking about things like damage and soak.  Body/Strength don't really come into play (skills like running, swimming, diving, etc. become pilot skills when operating a vehicle/drone/device), which is why I call out Agility/Reaction as the main attributes that I often see replaced with Logic/Intuition.

For gunnery specifically, if you "become" a car with a weapon built into it, using that weapon is no longer "remote." You don't use control device to fire it. You are firing it directly with your body-vehicle melded mind, using your own Agility through the vehicle.

So other physically skills you may use when in jump-in (besides pilot), are Agility based, basically sneaking (and perhaps gymnastics).  Though I could see just using Reaction for this too for simplicity (are there specific rules for this in Rigger 5?), I think it is odd to replace this attribute with Logic as I see many tables do, for this situation and for Remote operations (control device) in VR. Of course vehicle stat/limits still apply in all kinds of vehicle/drone control (with control rig bonuses being a big boost for riggers).     

I also see many tables use Intuition + Piloting when piloting when jumped-in and in VR, and use Reaction + Piloting for when not in VR (manual/ar).


My optional rules allow for non-riggers to VR pilot with mental stats to accommodate this kind of play, allowing deckers/technomancers/hermetic magicians/anyone else with high mentals/low physicals to be able to be proficient at drone/vehicle control if they invest in the skills, but to also keep rigging particularly unique and ultimately the "best" way to do vehicle/drone things (in terms of limits, CR bonuses on all tests, etc.).

[FST_Gemstar]

 Note: My rules are intended to allow for many ways to be proficient at using vehicles/drones in multiple control interfaces, while trying to maintain both rigger supremacy and uniqueness.

For example. I like having the valid options of being able to make an adept or cyber-wheelman that has a lot of physical initiative, high reaction (for piloting), and high agility (for gunnery), being able to to manually pilot and fire weapons in their chosen vehicle. I like that a decker who hacks their way into a vehicle actually be able to actually pilot it with the speed/power of the matrix and their disembodied mind, using Intuition (for pilot) and Logic (for Gunnery)  and their hot-sim bonuses. But ultimately, to me, a rigger, with control rig/hot-sim bonuses, in addition to other power sources ('ware/drugs/magic/diagnostics/etc) should be able to to be the "best" at piloting and be a more "visceral" experience. Riggers don't "pilot" with their mind as if they are just in VR, they "become" a vehicle, and pilot with their minds the way people move legs with their minds (leading me to privilege Reaction and Agility over Intuition and Logic). They may have fewer dicepools than the control device mental stat users, but the bonuses from the control rig can more than make up for it. However, riggers are confusing, and I'm not opposed to just letting them use Agility or Logic (whatever they prefer) for Gunnery, I just think RAW and RAI is Agility.   

[Marcus]

That's very interest take on it FST. Certainly has interest ramifications across the rigger archtype. Do you happen to have some example riggers run under this?

[FST_Gemstar]

Haven't played with this character, but I just mocked up an example  of a human rigger (that isn't min-maxed) that would use these rule sets. 

Total karma spent: 20 on attributes, 5 on contacts, 25 on positive qualities = needs 25 karma worth of negative qualities. 
I didn't buy any gear/vehicles/drones. Character still has 172.5k nuyen, which can get them starting gear, a suped up vehicle, a decent RCC and a few drones.

== Personal Data ==
Street Name:
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 10/20 (2m/hit)     Swim: 6 (1m/hit)     
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Human
Composure: 6
Judge Intentions: 8
Lift/Carry: 5 (30 kg/20 kg)
Memory: 5
Nuyen: 172,650¥

== Priorities ==
Metatype: D,1
Attributes: C,2
Special: E,0
Skills: B,3
Resources: A,4

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 2 (5)
REA: 6 (9)
STR: 2
CHA: 3
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 3
EDG: 5

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   0.09
Initiative:                14 +1d6
Rigger Initiative:         14 +1d6
Astral Initiative:         
Matrix AR:                 14 +1d6
Matrix Cold:               5 + DP +3d6
Matrix Hot:                5 + DP +4d6
Physical Damage Track:     10
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Limits ==
Physical:                  6
Mental:                    4
   Attention Coprocessor [+1] (Only for Perception)
   Math SPU [+1] (Only for Scientific or Technical Knowledge Skills)
   Orientation System [+2] (Only for Navigation)
Social:                    4
Astral:                    4

== Active Skills ==
Artisan (Van Art)        Base:  1          Pool:  7 (9)
Automatics (Machine Pistols) Base:  1          Pool:  6 (
Con (Fast Talk)          Base:  1          Pool:  4 (6)
Disguise                 Base:  5          Pool: 10
Electronic Warfare (Jamming) Base:  2          Pool:  4 (6)
Gunnery (Ballistic)      Base:  6          Pool: 11 (13)
Navigation (GPS)         Base:  2          Pool:  8 (10)
Palming                  Base:  5          Pool: 10
Perception (Visual)      Base:  5          Pool: 10 (12)
Pilot Aircraft (Remote Operation) Base:  3          Pool: 12 (14)
Pilot Ground Craft (Wheeled) Base:  6          Pool: 15 (17)
Sneaking                 Base:  5          Pool: 10

== Knowledge Skills ==
English                  Native
Area Knowledge: Seattle  Base:  3          Pool:  8
Astronomy                Base:  1          Pool:  6
Black Markets (Seattle)  Base:  3          Pool:  8 (10)
Mathematics              Base:  2          Pool:  8
Shadow Community (Chop Shops) Base:  1          Pool:  6 (
Underworld (Racing)      Base:  1          Pool:  6 (

== Contacts ==
; Fixer (4, 3)
; Mechanic (3, 4)

== Qualities ==
Agile Defender
Biocompatability (Cyberware)
Common Sense
Inspired.RF (Artisan)
Jack of All Trades Master of None
Quick Healer
Sense of Direction
Steely-Eyed Wheelman 

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Control RigRating 3
Datajack
Gastric Neurostimulator
Muscle TonerRating 3
Partial Cyberskull (AGI 3, STR 3, Physical 6)
   + Bulk ModificationRating 1
   + Attention Coprocessor
   + Math SPU
   + Orientation System
   + Radar SensorRating 2
Reaction EnhancersRating 3

== Weapons ==
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 4   Accuracy: 6   DV: 2S   AP: -   RC: 2



Character can get decent dice/limits when jumped-in on tests. Can still do some AR remote piloting of using control device of flying drones. Isn't a liability when away from their van. 

Character could easily better optimize qualities/skills, and probably shift some Reaction into Agility (jumped pilot dice and threshold reduction make pilot dicepools likely too big).