Author Topic: Which would you call the better weapon?  (Read 392 times)

Tassyr

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Which would you call the better weapon?
« on: (04:23:20/09-08-17) »
I'm still (Yeah, my getting in on this is dragging for some reason) working on the same sammie I've been poking for a few weeks, off and on. I've been tweaking his gear for the past few especially, and found something that I want an opinion on.

On the one hand, you have the Salvatte Guardian. Comes with an internal smartgun. Modded intensely I got it to these stats:
Damage: 8P
RC 7
AP -1
Mode: SA/BF
Ammo 12(c)
Avail 6R
Cost 1,585¥
Conceal +-0

On the other hand, I saw the Remington Suppressor. Equally heavily modded, I got it to -these- stats.
Damage: 7P
RC 6
AP -1
Mode: SA/BF
Ammo 15(c)
Avail 6R
Cost 1,600¥
Conceal +-0

The big thing that's even making me consider the drop in RC and damage is my char is spec'd heavily into automatics to get his AR skill where I want it at opening- meaning this pistol would be much more efficient as a backup. Counting Cyberware and Specializations, he's got a 16 dice pool with the Suppressor, and a 14 dice pool with the Guardian. Common sense to me would seem to dictate that I just go for the machine pistol and stick with it. Is that right?

(A large part of why I grabbed pistols at all rather than just snagging machine pistols was the fact that you can load a cylinder-style heavy pistol with utility rounds- gel, tracker, narcoject/DSMO, stick-n-shock, etc- and flip it around at will to keep from having to reload every time you want to fire a different type of round, so he's -also- packing a revolver for that purpose.)
« Last Edit: (05:14:38/09-08-17) by Tassyr »
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Jack_Spade

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #1 on: (04:56:02/09-08-17) »
The Guardian is an outstanding gun and I'd always recommend it. The limited magazine capacity can be doubled with extended magazines, eliminating the only weak point the gun has.

You seem to have taken both Pistols and Automatics as skills, so it's kind of a draw, since the Suppressor is a very good gun too.
Still, always err on the side of supreme firepower. The difference between an opponent that is down and one that only has a -3 to all his actions is often only one point of damage.
So if you don't need the silenced quality I'd take the Guardian and have a Defiance Taser as a back-up when you need to take someone out silently.
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Tassyr

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #2 on: (05:14:05/09-08-17) »
The Guardian is an outstanding gun and I'd always recommend it. The limited magazine capacity can be doubled with extended magazines, eliminating the only weak point the gun has.

You seem to have taken both Pistols and Automatics as skills, so it's kind of a draw, since the Suppressor is a very good gun too.
Still, always err on the side of supreme firepower. The difference between an opponent that is down and one that only has a -3 to all his actions is often only one point of damage.
So if you don't need the silenced quality I'd take the Guardian and have a Defiance Taser as a back-up when you need to take someone out silently.

Aright, that's the kind of thought process I needed to see. I've -always- got a Defiance taser on my chars, no matter what, so it works. Thanks!
"There's a reason Johnsons are named what they are. They'll try and fuck you at some point, no doubt about it." -Camulus

Jack_Spade

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #3 on: (05:32:12/09-08-17) »
Happy to help  :D
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The Bald Man

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #4 on: (08:03:16/09-08-17) »
I don't have the books in front of me, nor do I know what mods you applied - What is the Accuracy of each?
Is there something else you want to spend those Pistol skill points on?  I think you will find you can get by with just automatics. 

Tassyr

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #5 on: (08:40:03/09-08-17) »
The Guardian clocks in at 5 ( 7 ) because of the integral smartgun, the Suppressor at 6 ( 8 ). So it deals one less damage and has one less recoil compensation, but it's slightly more accurate and suppressed.

« Last Edit: (10:01:20/09-08-17) by Tassyr »
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Quatar

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #6 on: (12:57:51/09-08-17) »
The +2 dice you have with automatics are on average a 0.66 successes on the hit role, and therefor later on 0.66 more damage through more net hits. So it's really only a 0.33 difference in damage there. One more dice in Automatics would mean they're equal, on average at least, and the Suppressor has one higher accuracy (which I didn't expect) - but with smartlink that should be high enough on both to not be a huge issue in most shots.

The Guardian is a really great gun, it's actually almost too good. Not broken enough to ban it, but if you compare a random pistol against it, it's usually going to win. Predator is almost equal, and the Ruger SUper Warhawk is better in damage and AP but lacks the SA/BF modes. It doesn't really have a weakness.

To compare two weapons I usually use this script: http://anydice.com/program/2be4
just plug in a few numbers at the beginning and roll it, at the end it will tell you damage after dodge and soak. It also shows the situation where you would barely hit with a 16 dice and miss with a 14, which might actually make up for that little difference in damage, since 7 is still better than 0.
« Last Edit: (13:00:25/09-08-17) by Quatar »

Tecumseh

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #7 on: (13:22:56/09-08-17) »
Let's talk about the differences in Accuracy.

If you have 14 dice for the Guardian and an Accuracy of 7, you'll be losing an eighth hit (that you would get would Accuracy 8) ~6% of the time.

If you have 16 dice for the Guardian and an Accuracy of 8, you'll be getting that eighth hit ~13% of the time (1 chance in 8, roughly).

Jack makes a reasonable point about erring on the side of supreme firepower, but what's even more important is having a shot connect in the first place. If you can't hit the target then it doesn't matter what the difference in damage codes is.

In this case, given the better dice pool, the fact that additional hits (from the larger dice pool and better Accuracy) will largely bridge the difference in damage codes, and the availability of sound suppression, I would go with the Suppressor.

Jack_Spade

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #8 on: (14:26:39/09-08-17) »
Adding a custom grip will add accuracy, making the whole thing less relevant. The fact that both can use burst fire to reduce enemy defense narrows the gap even more.
Wasting hits at 8 or 9 ACC is very, very seldom an issue as long as your dp is below 18.
The larger dice pool is in play still 0.33 DV less effective than the higher base damage.

The suppressor may be a standard accessorie, but it is still incompatible with gas vent since it's not integrated but detachable.

Also the suppressor ammo is not compatible with the aforementioned Ruger Super Warhawk. A minor benefit, for sure, but when you are desperate enough that every last bullet counts it can become very relevant.

But on the whole, differences are very minor. If you have access to the SotA ADL book there are some guns that give both the Guardian and the Remington a run for their money:

Heavy Pistol
Walther Secura II ACC 6(8) DV 8K AP-1 SM/BF* RC– Ammo 18(s) AVA 10R 925 € (Accessories: Smartgun, Tactical Flashlight)
(*All burst fire requires complex actions)
Machine Pistol
Glock 51 ACC 5(6) DV 7K AP– HM/SM/AM RC– Ammo 28(s) AVA 10R 450 € (Accessories: Laser Sight, Ceramic Components 2)

talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Marcus

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #9 on: (17:16:48/09-08-17) »
SotA ADL

There's a  weapons book I don't own? State of the Art What? And where can I find it?

adzling

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #10 on: (17:40:41/09-08-17) »
it's a german book from pegasus released recently.

no english language or american version.

FWIW don't forget hand-loads, they will add some more oomph whichever pistol you end up using ;-)
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Tassyr

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #11 on: (18:15:47/09-08-17) »
it's a german book from pegasus released recently.

Welp, that's unfortunate as I speak no German beyond a handful of random profanities and I'm not even sure of those...
"There's a reason Johnsons are named what they are. They'll try and fuck you at some point, no doubt about it." -Camulus

Jack_Spade

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #12 on: (10:17:26/09-09-17) »
I can recommend Aria's character sheet/generator https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3Yw4d165IBNcDJoSi1nQzFrZlE
where I happen to have provided the relevant data for the SotA ADL equipment.
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

adzling

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #13 on: (11:09:54/09-09-17) »
Point of reference here's my pistol wielding character's pistols (1 point of accuracy is from adept power and 2 points of recoil is from his strength)

Savalette Guardian: 11P v -2 [10]
Recoil Compensation: 7
Modifications: Advanced Safety System [Explosive Self Destruct],
Chameleon Coating, Electronic Firing, Gas-Vent System (3), Gecko Grip, Longbarrel, Melee Hardening, Personalized Grip, Smartgun System, Internal [Vision Magnification, Electronic, Thermographic Vision, Flare Compensation, Image Link, Low Light Vision]
Accessories: Improved Range Finder APDS: +1 v -4, _____/12
EX-Explosive Rounds: +3 v -1, _____/12

Fichetti Executive Action 10P v -1 [10] 5/15/30/50
Recoil Compensation: 6
Modifications: Chameleon Coating, Electronic Firing, Gas-Vent System (3), Gecko Grip, Melee Hardening, Personalized Grip, Smartgun System, Internal
EX-Explosive Rounds: +3 v -1,

PSK-3 Collapsible Pistol 8P v -1 [8] 5/20/40/60
Recoil Compensation: 4
Modifications: Ceramic/Plasteel Components (6), Electronic Firing,
Folding Stock, Melee Hardening, Personalized Grip Accessories: PSK-3 Silencer, Slide Mount, Smartgun System, External
Hi-DS: –

Ruger Super Warhawk  [9] 5/15/30/50
Recoil Compensation: 2
Modifications: Ammo Skip Pistol, Personalized Grip, SmartgunSystem, Internal
Capsule, AgHexHex: -4 v +4, _____/1
Capsule, Ekyelebenie Venom: -4 v +4, _____/10
Flare: -2 v +1, _____/1
Stealth Tag Tracker: -2 v -2, _____/2
Wood Pulp Rounds: -3 v +4, _____/3
Wood Pulp Rounds: -3 v +4, _____/3
Live in the SF Bay Area and looking for a group? PM me we have a slot open!

Marcus

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Re: Which would you call the better weapon?
« Reply #14 on: (00:22:05/09-10-17) »
HexHex haven't seen that in awhile.