Author Topic: Marks and RigDecking  (Read 807 times)

Kiirnodel

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #15 on: (14:35:21/06-16-17) »
Actually I say you don't actively use any Matrix features of the drone because that's not how slaving devices works.

When you're jumped into a device you're taking direct control (which gives a level of control that is much more difficult to bypass with hacking trickery). The control rig also provides benefits toward the use of that device (increased limits, decreased thresholds, etc). But the rules never mention any sort blending of Matrix attributes.

In the Matrix your persona is simply acquiring that devices icon, you aren't reforming your persona. All the definitions of your base persona are still going to be defined by the device that formed it.

The Bald Man

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #16 on: (22:14:53/06-16-17) »
+1 to Kiirnodel

Also, thematically a control rig does a thing (allow you to control a vehicle as if it were your natural body) - and that thing isn't 'matrix-y'.  So adding its rating to your matrix attributes is off theme. 

Jack_Spade

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #17 on: (11:25:39/06-17-17) »
@The Bald Man

That's objectively false. p.266 core
"When you’re jumped into a vehicle or other device, you’re in Virtual Reality mode. The control rig allows you to treat Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions, so any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle actions when you’re jumped in. [...] If you’re using hot-sim, you get +3D6 (4D6 total) Initiative dice, and a +1 dice pool bonus that applies to all Matrix test (including Vehicle actions), but all biofeedback damage is Physical damage.

@Kiirnodel
This is not about slaving, but jumping in. I said you handle it analogous to slaving, not that it is using the slaving rules.
And of course the rules don't mention it - the core book didn't have the options yet that Data Trails opened up.
But the rules do mention that you can use the limits and options of the drone you jump into.
The form of your persona has ultimately nothing to do with it - you just use the options that the drone you control offers.

Think of it as special equipment on a drone. For one thing this would allow you to actually use drones like the Aztech Hedgehog as a surveillance drone. 



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Kiirnodel

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #18 on: (14:23:37/06-17-17) »
Where
Where does it mention using the Matrix attributes of the drone you jump into?

Treating Vehicle tests as Matrix actions while jumped in (which is pretty expressly stated to give the hot-sim bonus for running hot while rigging) does not mean that all Matrix actions become vehicle tests.

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #19 on: (15:36:41/06-17-17) »
Wouldn't you have to form a persona on the drone (as a device) in order to use it's matrix attributes?
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Jack_Spade

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #20 on: (17:02:00/06-17-17) »
@忍 (By the way, how do you pronounce that?)
I not aware of any rules to this effect. Jumping into the drone allows you to use its features - why not an Attack or Sleaze attribute?

@Kiirnodel
Nowhere. Because the rules writers didn't think about that specific case.
Shooting a gun VR is also not a vehicle test but it is a matrix action. The point is, while you are jumped in you do nothing but matrix actions. Even the vehicle actions become matrix actions. That does not preclude you from performing genuine matrix actions as well (a typical one would be Electronic Warfare using sensors to perceive your environment).
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Kiirnodel

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #21 on: (19:36:51/06-17-17) »
@忍 (By the way, how do you pronounce that?)
I not aware of any rules to this effect. Jumping into the drone allows you to use its features - why not an Attack or Sleaze attribute?
exactly what extra features are you talking about? The feature of it's a device that you have control of? That's not the same thing as absorbing all of its attributes. Controling a vehicle and being able to pilot it and perform actions isn't exactly a unique feature to using a control rig. Control Rigs, in point of fact, don't allow you to do anything new they just make you that much better at doing those actions because of the bonuses it provides. It doesn't give access to any additional "features" that control of the device remotely does not already provide.

@Kiirnodel
Nowhere. Because the rules writers didn't think about that specific case.
Now you're just contradicting yourself.
But the rules do mention that you can use the limits and options of the drone you jump into.
So you say that the rules do mention something, but they don't actually have it written down anywhere.
You only use a vehicle/drone's limits for actions that the vehicle is actually performing. The same way you use a Gun's Accuracy when you're shooting it you use a vehicle's Handling when making Pilot tests. The Control rig gives bonuses on these tests because of your improved control that is given through the implant. Matrix actions performed by you even while jumped in to said drone do not receive these bonuses because it doesn't involve the vehicle. Again, your persona does not gain the Matrix attributes of the device you are jumped into, and your limits in the Matrix are not the device's limits.

Shooting a gun VR is also not a vehicle test but it is a matrix action. The point is, while you are jumped in you do nothing but matrix actions. Even the vehicle actions become matrix actions. That does not preclude you from performing genuine matrix actions as well (a typical one would be Electronic Warfare using sensors to perceive your environment).

Not saying that a rigger is precluded from performing actual Matrix actions, just saying that doing so is still done using your existing persona which derives its attributes from the device on which it was formed. While jumped in, Vehicle actions are treated as Matrix actions giving them the bonus for being VR through hot-vs-cold sim, nothing more.

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #22 on: (00:45:13/06-18-17) »
@Jack_Space
[Deutsch] Schi•no•bi [/Deutsch]
link

Quote from: Core 235
When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out. You can only run one persona at a time; switching requires you to reboot both the device you’re currently on and the device to which you want to shift your persona.
In regards to jumping-into:
Quote from: Core 266
From the Matrix, your icon and the device icon merge into a single icon. Usually, it’s just your icon there, but you can make it look like something else if you want separate icons indicating “you” and “you jumped into a rigged death machine.”
For slaving:
Quote from: Core 233
Slaving gives a weaker device some added protection. Whenever a slaved device is called on to make a defense test, it uses either its own or its master’s rating for each rating in the test.

These passages seem to point towards that a vehicle's attributes don't "flow up" to the persona. Now "usually" you'll form a persona on a device like a commlink or RCC, which has both the inferred ability to form a persona and Matrix Attributes, however plugging your Control Rig directly into a vehicle implies the ability to form a persona. It's niche but worth mentioning.

Anyway in the Device -> Vehicle scenario, both devices have Matrix Attributes however the device in which you form your persona will determine your Matrix Attributes. If a drone has a Sleaze modification and you Jumped-into via RCC, you would only have the two attributes, Data Processing and Firewall. If someone were to perform a Matrix Perception test both you and the drone would roll Logic + Sleaze. Note that the Opposed roll does not have a Limit, such as Sleaze. Nonetheless, you do not benefit from another device's attributes that you do not form your persona from.
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there is autosofts for everything  8)

The Bald Man

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #23 on: (10:49:19/06-18-17) »
@The Bald Man

That's objectively false. p.266 core
"When you’re jumped into a vehicle or other device, you’re in Virtual Reality mode. The control rig allows you to treat Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions, so any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle actions when you’re jumped in. [...] If you’re using hot-sim, you get +3D6 (4D6 total) Initiative dice, and a +1 dice pool bonus that applies to all Matrix test (including Vehicle actions), but all biofeedback damage is Physical damage.

Subjectively false. 
the section you reference in the core is all about vehicle tests, not matrix tests.  The vehicle rules are what is being discusses and expanded upon, not the matrix rules. 
There is a lot of controversy over that hot sim +1.  Whether it is in addition to or replacing the standard +2 for hot sim.  Probably not a good foundation for discussion.

Jack_Spade

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #24 on: (15:31:47/06-19-17) »
@Kiirnodel
The Control Rig is just used to increase the limits - it's the jumped in part that allows you to use the features of the vehicle/drone thanks to the rigger control. That is the part that makes this different from using any other device.
Quote
So you say that the rules do mention something, but they don't actually have it written down anywhere.
You only use a vehicle/drone's limits for actions that the vehicle is actually performing. The same way you use a Gun's Accuracy when you're shooting it you use a vehicle's Handling when making Pilot tests. The Control rig gives bonuses on these tests because of your improved control that is given through the implant. Matrix actions performed by you even while jumped in to said drone do not receive these bonuses because it doesn't involve the vehicle. Again, your persona does not gain the Matrix attributes of the device you are jumped into, and your limits in the Matrix are not the device's limits.
Now you are purposefully twisting my words. I provided the text passages that support my interpretation - that doesn't change the fact that there are no explicit rules written about the use of matrix attributes on drones because the necessary components hadn't been added to the rules yet.

The vehicle has a sensor limit - you use it for Electronic Warfare checks to perceive the environment
The vehicle now has a Sleaze limit - you use it for Electronic Warfare checks to jam your surroundings
Not a big difference in my opinion and it definitely involves the vehicle in both cases. It's definitively an action that the drone pilot program could perform - so why shouldn't you be able as the jumped in pilot?
Further, Hacking isn't a trained skill. You can totally tell the pilot program to try and hack something as an untrained skill check. So why shouldn't you be able to do so when you are jumped in?

@忍
Thanks, that has bugged me for quite a while to know :D

I did not say attributes flow up - I say you can use all the features of the drone while you are jumped in, as explained above.
The matrix perception roll would only see one icon - the "I'm jumped into this device with this other device" icon. If the sleaze defense was successful you'd not see anything since afaik there are no rules about perceiving only half an icon.

@The Bald Man
I'm refraining from swearing and point out instead that you said:
Quote
"Also, thematically a control rig does a thing [...] - and that thing isn't 'matrix-y'.  So adding its rating to your matrix attributes is off theme.
Implying that using a control rig wasn't part of using the matrix. Which is false. 
talk think matrix

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Kiirnodel

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #25 on: (04:27:25/06-20-17) »
@Kiirnodel
The Control Rig is just used to increase the limits - it's the jumped in part that allows you to use the features of the vehicle/drone thanks to the rigger control. That is the part that makes this different from using any other device.
No, the Control Rig is what lets you jump in. The bonus for jumping in is the increase in Limits which is based on the Rating of the control rig. Jumping in is just another form of control over a vehicle (drone or otherwise). Take a look at page 265, it talks about the four ways that devices can be controlled and what the difference is between them. Manual, remote, and rigger controls all work the same way and give you access to the same options. When you take control of a device, you don't use its Matrix attributes.

Now you are purposefully twisting my words. I provided the text passages that support my interpretation - that doesn't change the fact that there are no explicit rules written about the use of matrix attributes on drones because the necessary components hadn't been added to the rules yet.
I'm not twisting your words, I asked for the passage that stated that you (in any way) use the Matrix attributes of a drone when you are jumped in. You haven't provided any text that supports your idea that jumping in means that your Matrix Attributes combine.

The vehicle has a sensor limit - you use it for Electronic Warfare checks to perceive the environment
You always use the Sensor limit of the device through which you are making sensor tests, this isn't a bonus from Jumping in.

The vehicle now has a Sleaze limit - you use it for Electronic Warfare checks to jam your surroundings
Unless you formed your persona on the device, you don't make Jam signal tests through your drone. This is a basic principle of the Matrix rules and is the same reason why you can't slave a cyberdeck to a high rating commlink so that the Cyberdeck has a higher Firewall without needing to use a high point from its attribute array. You can't make Matrix actions using the attributes of slaved or even attached devices.

Not a big difference in my opinion and it definitely involves the vehicle in both cases. It's definitively an action that the drone pilot program could perform - so why shouldn't you be able as the jumped in pilot?
Further, Hacking isn't a trained skill. You can totally tell the pilot program to try and hack something as an untrained skill check. So why shouldn't you be able to do so when you are jumped in?
It is different for the reason I mentioned earlier: even when using remote control or manual controls, making Perception (or substituting Electronic Warfare) to observe your surroundings through a vehicle's sensors already uses the Sensor rating of the device as the limit. The state of being jumped in doesn't change this (it only boosts the limit, because that's what a control rig does).


Your argument is based on this statement, yes?
"In the Matrix, the icon of the device you jumped into becomes part of your persona."

That's the second-to-last sentence of the Jump Into Rigged Device Matrix action. And the problem is that you are conflating "becomes part of your persona" with sharing Matrix attributes. Most devices that are part of your PAN for example have their icons merge with your Persona/PAN icon. Just because icons merge doesn't mean that devices do. They talk about it on page 219 when they go over PANs, "Most individuals have multiple electronic devices on them at once, and having icons for each one show up would provide too much visual clutter in the Matrix. Often, what shows up instead is an icon representing an individual's personal area network."
Personally, I make it part of Matrix Perception for individual device icons to be potentially identified from the PAN icon. For example, a few extra hits on Matrix Perception when looking over a person's matrix presence will potentially reveal the presence of vision enhancement devices, cyberware, etc. even though they have become part of the person's overall persona.

The big take-away here is that a Control Rig / Jumping in never says that it gives access to anything new. It gives a bonus while using some things (the increase to limits and dice pool bonus), but doesn't give access to features that weren't previously accessible...

CoyoteNZ

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #26 on: (22:25:08/07-13-17) »
Oh this discussion seems so fun and complex, can anybody jump in?

If you're a rigger with no attack or sleaze, you don't gain one by jumping into a device which has one... but

Pg 238 core, Control Device! You control the drone you are jumped into, and the deck slaved to your RCC, so there is nothing stopping you issuing it a control device command to either of these devices to make an matrix attack with their attributes.

So if you had a deck slaved to your RCC, while you are booting around in a drone what is stopping you from making an attack using your deck, or even the drone this way?

Yes, I know; slightly different from inheriting the drones matrix attributes (which I think you don't), but still letting you attack

ClaytonCross

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #27 on: (21:37:32/07-16-17) »
Oh this discussion seems so fun and complex, can anybody jump in?

If you're a rigger with no attack or sleaze, you don't gain one by jumping into a device which has one... but

Pg 238 core, Control Device! You control the drone you are jumped into, and the deck slaved to your RCC, so there is nothing stopping you issuing it a control device command to either of these devices to make an matrix attack with their attributes.

So if you had a deck slaved to your RCC, while you are booting around in a drone what is stopping you from making an attack using your deck, or even the drone this way?

Yes, I know; slightly different from inheriting the drones matrix attributes (which I think you don't), but still letting you attack

CoyoteNZ

I think the thing to remember here is that if you are using "Control Device" to tell a Drone or Deck to do something it is following your command but acting on its own. So a Drone it using its auto pilot and a Deck would only act if it was running an Agent or AI so that it had a brain to follow the commands. In both cases your not using your persona but the stats of the device.

I really feel like the problems can be clarified with RAI instead of RAW. The RAW may be confusing but I think RAI are pretty clear.

1. You form your Persona on a single device with which you create your matrix attributes.

2. If you access/jump in/slave a device it is not part of your persona. Even if it has higher states you are over riding it not absorbing it.
(Just like you don't add Drone pilots or Agents to your scores while using those devices, you over ride them but they can act separately that is there advantage)

3. RIGs are for intended for vehicles not deckers. If they were intended for deckers they would say so. If your trying to get buffs to matrix actions due to some phrases in RAW you know your wrong.

4. You can create a persona on 1 device and jump into another device, if you could not riggers would not work. Unless directly connected, they are always doing that, and if you tried to directly connect jumped in hot-sim an pilot a drone you would drag your lifeless body all around a combat zone since they don't have seats.

5. If you directly connect your deck to a vehicle, jack into your deck using your RIGs conncection, create your persona on a deck, get 3 marks on a vehicle, disconnect wireless on the vehicle (not disconnecting your direct connect to your deck), jump into the vehicle through the deck. Yes, you can now steal the car.

6. [Bad idea] If you want steal a vehicle with your RCC, you would need to order a Agent on your deck to hack the vehicle and spoof owner ship to give you 3 marks (There is no reason for it to be slaved or attached to your RCC since you own it and can issue orders to it without networking it together), so that you can (for example) add the vehicle to your RCC PAN with "owners permission". But if you assume that works its still a bad idea because it gives leaves the real owner access and because they have 3 marks on a slaved device they would get 3 marks on your RCC... If I was the owner I would erase all your autosofts and send your physical location to the police then power cycle my vehicle (clearing your marks but keeping mine or your RCC so I can update the police on your location).

7. [Good idea] Steel the car with a deck as described in #5, leave your RCC in your trunk all on its own sharing autosofts to drones and send control device commands from your deck to the RCC you own telling it to issue  the commands to all Drones in the RCC PAN at once or run a pre-scripted "playbook".

Now I did not quote all the text in the book because it is redundant to all the posts above and because really I am talking about RAI.

voydangel

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #28 on: (00:25:37/09-12-17) »
Sorry in advance for the necro, but I feel this discussion lends itself to an interesting question and I'd really like some opinions on it.

I agree with Kiirnodel in that you don't get to magically gain special attributes and powers from slaved devices just cause they happen to have them, as in the case of a drone with a matrix attribute. But my opinion on this is predicated on the fact that the drone isn't in the drivers seat anymore after you jump into it. You are now in the drivers seat so you are using its hardware, but not it's software. The hardware might include sensors and EW/jamming stuff, etc, but the thing that lets you use the sensors/EW/jamming is software, which all gets suspended when you jump in. In short: a drone isn't a deck, so it's not designed to hack, so you can't do that cause it's out of the "design parameters" because you might have the hardware, but not the software.

That being said, here's the really interesting question: a deck is a device, so what's to stop someone from jumping into a deck? Then, since the deck is designed to hack (it being effectively a highly specialized hacking drone at this point), couldn't you then use it's hardware to hack stuff in much the same way I use a drones hardware (guns) to shoot stuff? Would this enable my rig to increase all my hacking limits and give the the extra die from being rigged in? Where would I pull my Sleaze and Attack from? Would I use my Rigs Firewall and Data Processing? Which Device rating? How many programs could I then run? What about with sharing?

Eagerly awaiting some opinions on this. =)
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FST_Gemstar

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #29 on: (11:05:54/09-12-17) »

 a deck is a device, so what's to stop someone from jumping into a deck?


you can only jump-in to devices that have rigger interfaces. Drones come with them, many cars have them, other devices technically could be equipped with them, but it would be rare. I doubt deckers would would put rigger interfaces into their deck. 


I want to add to this necro... but i'll have to organize thoughts more... but my preliminaries...

I think the question is whether you can still perform Matrix actions through your persona when jumped-in... Jumping-in itself is a Matrix action... I would probably like to argue yes, but it would be dependent on what device you use to jump-in. An control rig doesn't affect this, as a control rig is just a pre-req for jumping-in to begin with, no matter what other device you use to form a persona.  If you are forming a persona with your RCC, you get extra benefits from jumping around drones, but you don't have Attack/Sleaze ratings... Same with most commlinks. If you use a deck or living persona, I don't see why you wouldn't also be able to make more typical hacker tests while jumped, just as if you were making any other VR wireless matrix actions. Cyber attacks to your drone are resisted normally, resisted by the drone, or with PAN protections of whatever master device is protecting the drone if it is part of a PAN. Folks could make cyber attacks against your controlling device, and that would defend regularly too. Or folks can make attacks against your persona, which would use your persona stats (the device you use to make the persona). Each have different aims... attacking the drone would brick the drone... attacking your RCC/commlink/deck would would brick those things and keep you from forming personas or jumping into another drone... attacking your persona itself would brick your persona forming device and mess you if in hot sim (and mess with you more if you are a technomancer using a living persona), etc.