Author Topic: Marks and RigDecking  (Read 815 times)

grffnhwk

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Marks and RigDecking
« on: (00:03:25/06-12-17) »
I've been searching everywhere for clarification on this issue.  Are marks placed via Hack on the Fly attached to the device or the persona?  Can you move your persona from one device to another?  Here's the scenario:
Rigs the Rigger is also a car thief.  He's managed to get a direct connection to a vehicle and spoofed his way into the car seat as well as disconnecting the vehicles wireless.  Now he wants to "jump in" to the car to drive off because it happens to have a rigger interface.  Let's say he has 3 placed the three marks on the vehicle using his implanted cheapo cyberdeck that is never wireless and slaved to his RCC, he uses it purely for direct connection work to bypass firewalls.  Can he switch over to the RCC and use the Jump into Rigged Device using the 3 marks he put on via the cheapo cyberdeck or is he locked into using the cyberdeck until he can switch device owner?

I'm kind of hoping that since marks placed on your slaved devices filters down to the host, that maybe marks placed while using a slaved device do the same?  Maybe I'm completely wrong with how the matrix works. :)

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #1 on: (02:08:51/06-12-17) »
MARKs belong to a persona (Core 236)
•MARKs only last during a "matrix session" (as above)
••Switching your persona requires you to reboot your device and begin anew on the other one (Core 235)

So no you can't do both like that :/ Also slaving a wireless-off device has some... interesting implications. This presumes that both the RCC and deck have some connection in the first place.
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there is autosofts for everything  8)

Jack_Spade

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #2 on: (02:40:19/06-12-17) »
That said, there is an interesting case of icon merging:
You can use a Control Rig with a cyberdeck to jump into a drone - all these icons will merge into your persona and you'll have access to all your matrix attributes while being jumped in.

One could also argue that if you mod your drone/vehicle with an attack rating and your RCC with a sleaze rating you'd be able to use both matrix attributes with your persona.
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Kiirnodel

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #3 on: (09:01:51/06-12-17) »
The only thing I noticed in the OP that you cannot do is "switch over to the RCC and Jump in..."

There's a common misconception that an RCC is required to jump into a device, it isn't. All an RCC does is provide a different set of Matrix Attributes and allow sharing of Autosofts and the ability to hop between slaved devices while Rigging faster.

If all of the devices mentioned have their wireless and everything turned off, then technically there is no reason to worry about repercussions of simply continuing to use the cyberdeck. But it's also highly unlikely for absolutely everything to be running with wireless off...

grffnhwk

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #4 on: (16:50:47/06-12-17) »
The only thing I noticed in the OP that you cannot do is "switch over to the RCC and Jump in..."

There's a common misconception that an RCC is required to jump into a device, it isn't. All an RCC does is provide a different set of Matrix Attributes and allow sharing of Autosofts and the ability to hop between slaved devices while Rigging faster.

If all of the devices mentioned have their wireless and everything turned off, then technically there is no reason to worry about repercussions of simply continuing to use the cyberdeck. But it's also highly unlikely for absolutely everything to be running with wireless off...
Thanks for the paradigm shift. :)  I hadn't thought about it that way.  If my end goal is to hack into and steal a car, I don't need that RCC at all. (*unless I want to also control/jump into drones)  I had thought that a cyberimplanted device always had a DNI, so couldn't it be wireless off, running a DNI through my implanted control rig jack through the hardline to either a port in the car or a datatap?

Edit: Could I run an Induction Receiver Module on a deck implanted in an obvious cyberarm to get a direct connection by placing my arm next to a device or grabbing a wire? (Assuming you can place the deck near the outside of the arm with induction pad(s) on the surface)
« Last Edit: (16:57:29/06-12-17) by grffnhwk »

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #5 on: (19:58:10/06-12-17) »
Yes and yes. With a direct connection you do not need to be wireless on. This doesn't require a DNI btw, but it doesn't interfere either.
Yeah, TMs got thrown in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube.
there is autosofts for everything  8)

gradivus

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #6 on: (07:53:22/06-14-17) »
That said, there is an interesting case of icon merging:
You can use a Control Rig with a cyberdeck to jump into a drone - all these icons will merge into your persona and you'll have access to all your matrix attributes while being jumped in.

One could also argue that if you mod your drone/vehicle with an attack rating and your RCC with a sleaze rating you'd be able to use both matrix attributes with your persona.

My interpretation of the rules- which of course may be wrong- is that you are allowed to use 1 and only 1 persona creating device at a time and further more no daisy chaining. Therefore, if I'm correct, you cannot use an RCC and Cyberdeck at the same time.
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Jack_Spade

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #7 on: (08:16:14/06-14-17) »
That's correct, but I'm talking about the implant for riggers that acts like a data jack (Control Rig =/= Rigger Command Console). The point is, the icon merging rules if you jump in. ( p. 241 core: "In the Matrix, the icon of the device you jumped into becomes part of your persona.")

The really fun part is that the Control Rig will also increase your matrix limits:
"When you’re jumped into a vehicle, drone, or other device, the limits of that device are increased by the rating of your control rig." p.266
So even if you only mod one matrix attribute to your drone and increase that to two, you can keep up to 5 successes with an R3 control rig.
talk think matrix

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RiggerBob

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #8 on: (14:58:44/06-14-17) »
The really fun part is that the Control Rig will also increase your matrix limits:
"When you’re jumped into a vehicle, drone, or other device, the limits of that device are increased by the rating of your control rig." p.266
So even if you only mod one matrix attribute to your drone and increase that to two, you can keep up to 5 successes with an R3 control rig.
1) No, the control rig will not increase your matrix limits. You failed to read the next sentence: "When you’re jumped into a vehicle, drone, or other device, the limits of that device are increased by the rating of your control rig. This includes vehicle and drone Sensor, Speed, and Handling, and the Accuracy of mounted weapons when used by the rigger." p.266

2) And as you quoted yourself, when you jump into a vehicle that vehicle's icon becomes part of your persona (created by your deck/RCC/commlink/whatever). It stops to exist as it's own icon. It can't be target anymore, because it's now part of your persona icon. So why do you think you can use any of it's matrix attributes at all?  :o

Unless you form your persona on your vehicle by directly connecting to it. Then you can use a modded attack/sleaze rating of course, but point 1 still applies...
« Last Edit: (15:03:15/06-14-17) by RiggerBob »

Jack_Spade

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #9 on: (15:34:48/06-14-17) »
As I read that sentence, "include" is not the same as "exclusively". This just lists the most common limits.

And the important part is that the rules says "becomes part of your persona" not "replaces" - that's why I argue you have access to all attributes.
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Kiirnodel

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #10 on: (17:35:31/06-14-17) »
So which Firewall do you use? The drone's or the commlink/cyberdeck/rcc you formed the persona on? Shadowrun, by-and-large subscribes to an all-or-nothing philosophy, so at the very least I wouldn't expect you to be able to cherry-pick the Matrix attributes of several different devices. But baseline rules: your Matrix attributes are determined by the device you formed the persona on, not other devices that are apart of it.

The control rig alters how you control the drone, it affects the drone's physical capabilities (or at least how well you control them), nothing in the way it works tells me that it should alter how it functions in the Matrix.

Jack_Spade

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #11 on: (17:43:44/06-14-17) »
The highest one of course. Just like slaving does.

The point is you combine two (or if you count the control rig even three) devices when you make the jump into one persona.
Or looked at differently: Why shouldn't you be able to access the modded attack or sleaze attribute on the drone if you are jumped into the drone and controlling the drone?

It's a rather neat way for riggers to get some basic protection against hackers.
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Kiirnodel

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #12 on: (23:51:53/06-14-17) »
Not how that works. The slave uses the higher of the two, not the master. The master gains no benefits for slaving a device.

And just because the icon of a device becomes part of your persona, doesn't mean that its attributes are absorbed. Any device that becomes part of your PAN has its icon become a part of your persona. That Street Sam with a slaved gun and smartlink goggles has tiny little icons showing off his weapons and "brand" of smartlink.

Nothing in the Matrix rules indicates that a persona's Matrix attributes ever change unless the forming device dictates it (aka Cyberdeck changing attributes). You don't  absorb extra attributes of slaved devices.

gradivus

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #13 on: (23:36:44/06-15-17) »
@Jack
I'm going blind... I read RCC when you clearly wrote control rig.

As far as which one is correct between yours and Kiirnodel's assertion...
my head hurts.

A better mind then mine would need to explain it to me in such a way that a five year old would get it.
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Jack_Spade

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Re: Marks and RigDecking
« Reply #14 on: (09:23:59/06-16-17) »
No problem - I have trouble myself keeping the two terms apart  :o

By and large my argument is pretty simple:
Jumping into a drone through a Control Rig allows you to use the limits of the drone (as per my second quote). As you usually have another device where you build your persona (RCC, Deck or Comlink), you'll also slave the drone to it to benefit from the better defense.

That's how far the rules take us

After that it gets murky/GM decision territory, but:
I argue that adding an Attack or Sleaze rating to a drone gives it just another limit that you can use and enhance through your CR in combination with the attributes of your persona device (which is still the one you use to determine defense and ini through data processing).

Kiirnodel argues that you can use all functions of the drone except a modded Attack/Sleaze attribute, because the rules don't explicitly say so.

talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex