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Interpretation Question

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voydangel

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« Reply #15 on: <11-01-10/1751:51> »
I agree with Cat, FJ and Critias: Your initiate grade is limited by your current magic rating, and your magic rating is limited to [6 + current IG]. So, you can effectively initiate to an unlimited number of ranks if you had the time and karma.

Course, if anyone disagrees, they can always feel free to not use that rule in their game, I can definitely see why someone would want to hard cap that - especially in a long running campaign where someone might actually get enough time & karma to exceed 12 magic. However, I am also aware of some GMs (not me) who give people a full 6 Magic to start [minus essence losses] if they play an awakened character (can you imagine starting with a magic of 6 for only the 5BP it cost you to become an adept at character creation?). Anyway, point is" "to each their own" :)

At my game table though, we go with "Your initiate grade is limited by your current magic rating, and your magic rating is limited to [6 + current IG]. So, you can effectively initiate to an unlimited number of ranks if you had the time and karma."
« Last Edit: <11-01-10/1807:02> by voydangel »
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Critias

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« Reply #16 on: <11-01-10/1800:45> »
I understand that it's a circular limitation, but it is what it is.  I know all about logical fallacies, but they don't necessarily apply to creating rules in an RPG.  Just read the rules.  You can dislike them, or you can dislike the theoretical extremes that they open up, but that doesn't change what they say.  Initiate Grade is limited by Magic, Magic may increase as Initiate Grade goes up, and the end result is if you've got an unlimited supply of karma and time for training -- yeah -- you've got an awful lot of room for growth.  That's just the end result, though.  The initial result is that it requires a lot of karma to increase in raw potency as a spellcaster, because you've got to initiate and you've got to separately increase your Magic attribute (and, in a fashion, albeit a circular one, your ability to initiate is limited by your magic, which is limited by your ability to initiate).  The end result is a ton of karma flying around to only make your character better at one thing, instead of rounding them out as a character...but the key is that the two karma expenditures are separate from each other, you don't get the free magic point with initiation, any more.  That's a key difference between editions that quite a few players and GMs, in my experience, forget (and thus imbalance things pretty quickly).

I could understand a house rule where a GM wanted to cap Magic at 12 (and Initiation at 6, as such), because -- and I'll admit I've said so for a long time, and will continue gripin' despite being a freelancer now -- I hate that most folks have a hard cap on how good they can get, and mages don't.  I don't see it mattering in most campaigns and with most characters, because no one's likely to ever get the unlimited karma, resources, training time, etc, required to really exploit it, but on principle I dislike having a cap on most attributes and abilities, and not on Magic (and Magic alone).  In theory, I might dislike it about Technomancers, too, but I don't remember if their mumbo-jumbo is capped or not (because I've yet to run into one in a game).  So I'd be fine with a house rule of limiting Initiation Grade to your natural Magic attribute (IE, 6)...but it would be just that, a house rule.

While it's not directly related to this rules issue, you're absolutely correct in your logical extrapolation of what IE's should be capable of, albeit it's an extrapolation based on the notions that they use magic the same way characters schooled solely in The Sixth World do (and they don't, but it's a reasonable model to use, regardless).  This is precisely why, traditionally speaking, you don't see stats for Immortal Elves -- whether magical or otherwise, anything created with near-infinite levels of karma and resources is going to be nasty, of course.  That's part of why they don't show up as the bad guys of every adventure, just like the players shouldn't be going toe-to-toe with Lofwyr real often, or something.

On an IE note, I have to ask, but why do you think the same doesn't apply to Horrors, Great Dragons, and other threats with lots and lots of time to earn and invest lots and lots of karma?  When one remembers that most Great Dragons are older than most Immortal Elves, why is it you seem to think IE's can smack them around with impunity when, generally speaking, anything an IE can do, a GD can probably do (better)?
« Last Edit: <11-01-10/1824:48> by Critias »

Mäx

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« Reply #17 on: <11-01-10/1819:51> »
But you can only double your magic rating.  So for most (99.999%) metahumans, that is the normal max of 6 and an initiate max of 12.  As it says on page 198 of SR4A:

Quote
A character's initiate grade annot exceed her Magic attribute.

And further down the page, under INCREASED MAGIC:

Quote
An initiate's natural maximum for the Magic attribute is 6 + her grade of initiation.  She will still have to pay normally to increase her Magic attribute.
So a mage or an adept can only ever have 12 magic, is what it looks like to me.  Otherwise you start having all sorts of ridiculousness where a metahuman can walk around with a higher magic rating than a great dragon and blows up cities with a single spell with no drain.
Next time could you maybe make sure you actually understand what your quoting before posting it with size 9000+ font.

As per the quotes you provided:
Max initiation grade is your current magic score
Max magic 6+ your initiation grade

So with enought karma i can be 100th grade iniate, i just need to raise my magic to 100.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Nath

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« Reply #18 on: <11-01-10/1831:08> »
Looking at the books, different authors seem to have different scale.

According to Harlequin's Back, Harlequin "is self-initiated to a double-digit grade", Jane "Frosty" Foster is grade 2 and Darke is grade 4.

In Threats, Darke is grade 6. The average priest in the Blood Gestalt has grade 3 (the Gestalt itself acting like a mage with a virtual initiate grade of 30).
The seven top members of the Black Lodge have achieved grades of 13 or higher. Black Lodge leader in each country is said to be between 10 and 12.

Corporate Download has Knight Errant Firewatch awakened team member and Novatech Black Alpha combat mages at least grade 3. Novatech Black Omega has a dozen members, at least grade 5 (with at least two of them "skilled in cybermantic magic").
Per CDL also, Aztechnology blood mages should be initiates, minimum grade 8.

Dragons of the Sixth World says all great dragons are initiates, "usually Grade 10 or higher, except for very young great dragons" (which should apply to Masaru).
« Last Edit: <11-06-10/0918:01> by Nath »

The Cat

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« Reply #19 on: <11-01-10/1940:59> »
I could understand a house rule where a GM wanted to cap Magic at 12 (and Initiation at 6, as such), because -- and I'll admit I've said so for a long time, and will continue gripin' despite being a freelancer now -- I hate that most folks have a hard cap on how good they can get, and mages don't.  I don't see it mattering in most campaigns and with most characters, because no one's likely to ever get the unlimited karma, resources, training time, etc, required to really exploit it, but on principle I dislike having a cap on most attributes and abilities, and not on Magic (and Magic alone).  In theory, I might dislike it about Technomancers, too, but I don't remember if their mumbo-jumbo is capped or not (because I've yet to run into one in a game).  So I'd be fine with a house rule of limiting Initiation Grade to your natural Magic attribute (IE, 6)...but it would be just that, a house rule.


I cannot stress how much I agree with this.  And I've handled it "both" ways, capping magic and initiation and removing the caps on skills while relaxing them on attributes (using the old SR3 "superhuman" optional rules and allowing double the attribute) while removing the "maximum modification to 1.5X attribute max."  Both systems have merit, as does mixing them.  For instance, even playing "as close to vanilla as possible" I typically ignore the "Max modified attribute" bit because I feel it makes no sense given the hard cap imposed by essence; if you want to dedicate 5.99 points of essence into having a Body Att so high you can take a direct hit from a naval cannon shell and wander off with a hang nail and to buy new clothes, that's fine, you "pay" for it in not being able to do anything else with your essence.

I've also had a good bit of success with what my players call "tracked initiation."  When they Initiate they can either dedicate it to a raising their Magic Attribute Max by a point (and then buy the Attribute up) or take a metamagic but not both.  That means they can initiate to some seriously high grades (if they so choose and live long enough and play long enough) but their power levels reamain somewhat manageable for a very long time, usually longer than the life of the character.  This allows the player to cap themselves.  They can, for instance, take 6 metamagics and be done entirely forever or take 3 and 3 and still have 6 grades to work towards with a possible Magic of 9.
« Last Edit: <11-01-10/1943:44> by The Cat »

voydangel

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« Reply #20 on: <11-01-10/1954:03> »
I could understand a house rule where a GM wanted to cap Magic at 12 (and Initiation at 6, as such), because -- and I'll admit I've said so for a long time, and will continue gripin' despite being a freelancer now -- I hate that most folks have a hard cap on how good they can get, and mages don't.  I don't see it mattering in most campaigns and with most characters, because no one's likely to ever get the unlimited karma, resources, training time, etc, required to really exploit it, but on principle I dislike having a cap on most attributes and abilities, and not on Magic (and Magic alone).  In theory, I might dislike it about Technomancers, too, but I don't remember if their mumbo-jumbo is capped or not (because I've yet to run into one in a game).  So I'd be fine with a house rule of limiting Initiation Grade to your natural Magic attribute (IE, 6)...but it would be just that, a house rule.

What he said. Completely Agree 100% - this is just wrong on principal.

And as a side note to answer your "not sure" bit - by the RAW technomancers are currently "unlimited" with their submersion/Resonance like Mages/Adepts are with their initiation/Magic.
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Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #21 on: <11-01-10/2058:15> »
Sure, in theory there are IE's out there who are a match for dragons. Really, is making a deal with Harlequin any better than making a deal with a dragon? From the little I've seen of IE's in the source material, they are dragons without the massive body. They live forever, have effectively unlimited resources and play a very long and intricate game instead of just bashing their way to what they want. They have a racial Charisma boost, so they're better than dragons at recruiting flunkies. The way I see it, though, when you've had a few Ages to study and become a massive magic stud, you've learned the following:

1. Using ridiculously high powered spells draws a lot of attention.
2. There's always someone bigger than you.
3. That's whose attention you'll be drawing.
4. When you've got the time to get that powerful, you've got the time to get things done. There are only a few good reasons to use massive resources to get things done faster.
5. When you live infinitely long, Murphy's Law comes at you an infinite number of times. High power critical glitches suck.
Corollary to 5: The more people you kill, the more times their grandkids come looking for revenge at the exact moment you're tired, hungry, pissed, drained and have your defenses down.
6: Bigger power=bigger consequences.

So yeah, go on a rampage with +36 to your stats. Just remember that when Posession wears off, or someone pulling the same trick banishes your rider, the entire Ares and UCAS military presence in Seattle will still be there bearing down on you, including that Sammie with just under 16 Essence worth of Cyberwear (7.99 cyber, 7.98 bio base, both deltaware or some such). Oh, and try not to be too evil. It'd be a shame to have all that power turn Toxic.

Edit: See also the Corporate Court's orbital strike weapons and/or the movie Akira for a good example of how cybertech level humans deal with out of control demigods.
« Last Edit: <11-01-10/2105:05> by nomadzophiel »

FastJack

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« Reply #22 on: <11-01-10/2147:48> »
Okay, consider this: Dunkelzahn was cowed by Harlequinn's magical power. So, do you think a 12th level initiate would be able to intimidate a Great Dragon?

Yes, it's incredibly crazy for really high magic and initiation. But, magic's only been around in the sixth world for sixty years. The main restriction is the lifespan of the mage. At MOST, a non-immortal spike baby elf has been studying magic for those sixty years could, theoretically earn 40 Karma a year, and pump it all into his magic, giving making him a 23rd level Initiate with Magic 23. So it is possible. However, getting there is another story. One that would involve Immortal Elves, Dragons, Metaplanes and the Enemy, more than likely. Now, your typical human mage in 2072 that's been running for 10 years and focusing entire on her magic? She's probably going to be slinging 11th level Initiation with a Magic of 11.

This is all if they ignore everything else. Not increasing their skills and anything else they could also improve. Which may hamper them in other areas. Remember, it's not gaining power that's tough in the SR universe, it's keeping it. And if your so focused on your magic to the exclusion of all else, the lucky street tough with a zip gun may blow your brains out when you're hitting the local stuffer shack for a study break.

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #23 on: <11-02-10/0053:01> »
This is all if they ignore everything else. Not increasing their skills and anything else they could also improve. Which may hamper them in other areas. Remember, it's not gaining power that's tough in the SR universe, it's keeping it. And if your so focused on your magic to the exclusion of all else, the lucky street tough with a zip gun may blow your brains out when you're hitting the local stuffer shack for a study break.

Which is why you'll never see Harlequin and the top tier of the Black Lodge at the Stuffer Shack.

A bit more seriously, its 400+ Karma just to get to Initation 6, Magic 12. 350 if you're in a group and going through an ordeal for every level of initiation. No new spells. No increased Sorcery Skill, or any other skill for that matter. Keeping up with other Runner abilities you need probably puts this level of power more in the 700-800 Karma range. And that's for PC's/Prime Runners. Off camera NPC's don't necessarily progress at anything like this speed.

voydangel

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« Reply #24 on: <11-02-10/0115:04> »
I'm curious, how many people use the optional rule that Adepts (and Mystic Adepts) can choose to gain a Power Point rather than a meta-magic technique when initiating?

Furthermore, I'm curious - If one were to limit initiation to 6 ranks only and have Magic hard capped at 12 as Gun suggests, would you opt to use said optional rule then?
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Bradd

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« Reply #25 on: <11-02-10/0319:10> »
I use the optional power point rule. I have no desire to limit Magic ratings or initiation (or their matrix equivalents).

The Cat

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« Reply #26 on: <11-02-10/0329:59> »

Which is why you'll never see Harlequin and the top tier of the Black Lodge at the Stuffer Shack.

A bit more seriously, its 400+ Karma just to get to Initation 6, Magic 12. 350 if you're in a group and going through an ordeal for every level of initiation. No new spells. No increased Sorcery Skill, or any other skill for that matter. Keeping up with other Runner abilities you need probably puts this level of power more in the 700-800 Karma range. And that's for PC's/Prime Runners. Off camera NPC's don't necessarily progress at anything like this speed.

In my experience, in many cases but not all, the game starts to break down in the 300 karma range and enters a terminal implosion at 600 thanks to player psychology.  Non-magical characters are sitting on a pile of money and/or toys at that level, their skills are getting into the top ranges for all of them their specialized field and likely a few others.  At that point it begins to enter "AD&D Paladin on a Bridge" turf where they have to face more and more outlandishly powerful foes  compared to what they've always seen to maintain a level of challenge.  SR3 was rife with it but SR4A seems a little better at this with the skill caps, though it still begins to enter that phase around the same point.

By the time "super-initiation" becomes a problem for PCs the game is at the "dealt with a dragon and killed his brother" phase already.

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« Reply #27 on: <11-02-10/0332:05> »
I'm curious, how many people use the optional rule that Adepts (and Mystic Adepts) can choose to gain a Power Point rather than a meta-magic technique when initiating?

Furthermore, I'm curious - If one were to limit initiation to 6 ranks only and have Magic hard capped at 12 as Gun suggests, would you opt to use said optional rule then?

I do ,and I would opt for it

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Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #28 on: <11-02-10/0333:54> »
I'm curious, how many people use the optional rule that Adepts (and Mystic Adepts) can choose to gain a Power Point rather than a meta-magic technique when initiating?

Furthermore, I'm curious - If one were to limit initiation to 6 ranks only and have Magic hard capped at 12 as Gun suggests, would you opt to use said optional rule then?

Never had to decide either way, since I haven't run 4A yet, but its kind of a scary thought. Increasing Magic from 5 to 6 is 30 Karma, Initiation is <30 Karma up to level 6. So its a cheaper way to get a power point than raising attributes and a concentrated, Init 6 Mag 12 character is going to have 18 Power Points worth of stuff.

Medicineman

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« Reply #29 on: <11-02-10/1141:18> »
Init 6 Mag 12 character is going to have 18 Power Points worth of stuff.
Kalculate the Karma Cost for that Char(just for MAG and In.)

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