Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Senko on <08-26-17/0316:19>
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I think there was a topic on this but I can't find it. Anyway a couple of things (rewatchimg slayers and Junior) got me thinking about the effects of magic on a pregnant woman. I'm not just talking about any indirect effects on the child (addiction, mutation, higher chance of being an awakened) but also drain on the mother. So it got me thinking what would be the ramifications in a world like shadowrun with few civil rights vs the need for keeping your mages happy? Extra long maternity leave (as in from when you find out till you give birth), minimal spellcasting/summoning but still working as a magical resource by answering questions or working out theoretical nee Spells, forced surrogate motherhood to someone else, Strict limits on number of children and they must be pre-approved something else? Thoughts anyone? Either on the treatment of the female mage or the effects of magic use on mother/child.
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Getting hurt and exerting yourself is generally avoided during pregnancies for the sake of mother and child.
Drain is comparable to fatigue damage, so I'd expect physicians advising female mages to only cast very low force spells during pregnancy.
I don't think that mages are prohibited from getting more children - rather the opposite: Awakened are valuable and making more is good business. Insofar, the corps might encourage surrogates, but then maybe awakening is furthered by having your mother let mana flow through her body and the baby, so I don't think it's mandatory.
All in all I don't think that there is any need on the part of the corps to intervene: Mages are highly paid specialists. Female mages will have the same problem like today's career oriented ladies: Career or family. And family will likely be pushed a bit back until the biological clock starts to tick...
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It depends on a couple of things: (a) how the culture treats magicians, and (b) how it treats women.
Progressive corps (Horizon, NeoNET, Evo) would probably encourage a pregnant magician to accept light duty in the second trimester, medical leave for the third trimester, and maternity leave for the first six months after birth (paternity leave, too, for that matter). They would probably provide free daycare if not a dedicated nanny or au pair when the magician is ready to resume her duties. Progressive corps figure a happy, satisfied magician is a loyal, hardworking magician.
Socially conservative corps (most Japanacorps) might discourage magicians from becoming pregnant in subtle ways ... half-pay on medical or maternity leave, delayed promotion schedules, payroll deductions for corp-approved childcare, reassignment to lower-priority projects. Magicians are valuable resources; conservative corps would prefer they focus their attention on more important things than family or personal lives (i.e., the corp).
Most corporations (and all mega corps) are savvy enough to value magicians, but there are enough anti-Awakened cultures out there that being pregnant and a magician could make you the focus of all sorts of unwanted attention. Good targets for extraction, these.
EDIT: See the "Pregnant" quality in Bullets and Bandages (p.12).
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Also, there's the long-standing Humanis et al party line that (human) Awakened - as in magically active - people are more likely to produce pointy-eared offspring, adding to the unwanted attention category.
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Also there may be a lot of theories about magic and pregnancy, but given how risk averse people generally are with pregnancy risks, and the shortage of animal equivalents to study, a lot of that may just be theory still. And in theory I include reasonable theory, old wives tales, propaganda, stuff someone made up to sell their product, and outright bunkum that some people believe anyway.
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I imagine if you do produce a healthy, human child they'd be scrutinised closely for magical ability of their own which may provide another reason to keep a pregnant mage healthy and happy so they encourage a potential future mage to work for the company.
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IIRC there is an adventure based on an Aztec guy who has fallen out of favor trying to get his magical potential son back from the mom as a blood sacrifice.
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Its one of the missions ones I think, sadly its just "Blood mage bad, sacrificing son for promotion" rather than really going into any detail. I don't think the mother even enters into it.
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But it goes to show that even Aztechnology wants it's mages to reproduce because the children of mages are valuable.
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I think Atlanti valued the child less for magical potential than his potential blood symbolism. Still I suppose some corps could offer special incentive packages to encourage their mages to have children in the hopes of breeding a new crop of potential mages. Not just maternity leave but you receive free (good quality) corporate housing or a baby bonus if you have a child and another better upgrade if your child/ren are confirmed to have magical potential.
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Keep in mind that awakened talents do not breed true. Meaning, even if both parents are awakened doesn't mean their kids are.
Back when magic reappeared, there was all sorts of effort made find the "magic gene" and all sorts of breeding programs set up by corporations looking to cash in.... and they all failed.
As to how they treat pregnant workers. Probably the same way as they are treated in developing nations. Which means you work until the last possible moment, and are back to work ASAP. (There is no such thing as a Labour Code, worker's Rights, or any other Socialistic Programs. Those died with the Governments in the late 90s early 2000's remember?)
Now mages, being a rare commodity, Probably get better treatment. - the fluff in game points to this- so things are probably a little better for them, but I wouldn't expect what the awakened get to be anywhere near what some Socialistic Governments adhear to now... (ex: in Canada a new mother can collect Social payments equal to 70% of her wage (max $2500/mo) for up to 18 months!)
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Keep in mind that awakened talents do not breed true. Meaning, even if both parents are awakened doesn't mean their kids are.
Back when magic reappeared, there was all sorts of effort made find the "magic gene" and all sorts of breeding programs set up by corporations looking to cash in.... and they all failed.
As to how they treat pregnant workers. Probably the same way as they are treated in developing nations. Which means you work until the last possible moment, and are back to work ASAP. (There is no such thing as a Labour Code, worker's Rights, or any other Socialistic Programs. Those died with the Governments in the late 90s early 2000's remember?)
Now mages, being a rare commodity, Probably get better treatment. - the fluff in game points to this- so things are probably a little better for them, but I wouldn't expect what the awakened get to be anywhere near what some Socialistic Governments adhear to now... (ex: in Canada a new mother can collect Social payments equal to 70% of her wage (max $2500/mo) for up to 18 months!)
They don't breed true, but there is evidence that magic can run in blood lines.
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Keep in mind that awakened talents do not breed true. Meaning, even if both parents are awakened doesn't mean their kids are.
Back when magic reappeared, there was all sorts of effort made find the "magic gene" and all sorts of breeding programs set up by corporations looking to cash in.... and they all failed.
As to how they treat pregnant workers. Probably the same way as they are treated in developing nations. Which means you work until the last possible moment, and are back to work ASAP. (There is no such thing as a Labour Code, worker's Rights, or any other Socialistic Programs. Those died with the Governments in the late 90s early 2000's remember?)
Now mages, being a rare commodity, Probably get better treatment. - the fluff in game points to this- so things are probably a little better for them, but I wouldn't expect what the awakened get to be anywhere near what some Socialistic Governments adhear to now... (ex: in Canada a new mother can collect Social payments equal to 70% of her wage (max $2500/mo) for up to 18 months!)
They don't breed true, but there is evidence that magic can run in blood lines.
Not just this but even if the child isn't a mage the mother and possibly the father is and if they're not happy with how they're treated you've got a valuable resource who'd welcome an extraction if they believed they were going somewhere better, they may even just try to quit. Renraku arcology had entire upper levels dedicated solely to mage inhabitants. So I think there is a certain degree of good treatment you don't want to cut the goose that's laying golden eggs open.
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These threads tend to get creepy. Magic should be about good story, the pregnancy element rarely adds much to a run. It just reminds me to much of a million tv shows where they add drama by having someone giving birth in the middle of some dramatic conflict. I know this shows up several classic myths, but I just don't see it being a very useful plot device for most runs.
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It's mainly on mind because a lot of things (TV shows, books, etc) have female reproduction tied to magic e.g. can't use magic when their having their period or affecting the child if used. Slayers anime and dark jewels both have the female magic users unable to use magic when having a period for instance (and in the later the more powerful the which the more pain she's in during that time of the month from her magic).
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Interresting post.
But not forget all the issues a pregnant women have to deal with... Wich is probably not so different for a awakened..
There's few things from a personal experience.
-memory issues (forgot everything pretty easily) Some bug in my head.. and loosing concentration very easily.. Can't concentrate on to complicate things..
-fatigue (escpacially 1 trimestre) I was litterally sleeping at job but second trimestre I was full of energy...
-eating /hungry ..
-always go to WC..
-Insomnia
- hormones.. this can affect mood pretty badly.. believe me.. And this point makes me wonder if this can be affect magic or trigger something...
(it's happen to me to start crying in the grocery because my love ask me want I would like to eat... well start crying for almost any little thing)
Last month.. I need help to put my sock... need help to get up of the coach.. difficulty to move my poor body around...
This is just few exemples..
So if you involve a pregnant women (awakened or not) in your game , think at these things please ;)
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All excellent role playing notes, but not things you'd want to enforce on someone's character.
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On a mostly unrelated note, any thought on if/when you can tell by aura that a woman is pregnant? Or if/when you can distinguish the baby's aura from the mother's?
And depending on those questions, I wonder if you'd get some interesting reactions from some spirits? (Depending on how much interest they have in metahumanity).
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All excellent role playing notes, but not things you'd want to enforce on someone's character.
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On a mostly unrelated note, any thought on if/when you can tell by aura that a woman is pregnant? Or if/when you can distinguish the baby's aura from the mother's?
And depending on those questions, I wonder if you'd get some interesting reactions from some spirits? (Depending on how much interest they have in metahumanity).
Good questions.
And they will probably never get an official answer to..... because that answer treads too close to the Pro choice/life debates that actually has ended lives in the States :(
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well.. if no official answer.. I think I DM discretion
So there's what I personnaly think.. Thats why but I am not really familiar with magic in Shadowrun (began to run just few months ago)
Yes I think aura will be different, why.. because your state of mind is little different while a pregnancy. Your energy level is not the same, lower, most of the time more calm. It is very hard to explain
Plus animal can feel it.
So if the aura is different, may be spririt can react differently...
*Personal experience: I used to working with Horses. One of them really love me and always come to get some hugs.. He used to "push" me a little hevy. But the day 7 months I saw them, he come as usual want his hug but suddenly stop and super gently put he head on my belly. It was sooo sweet!!! And he keep to be ultra gentle around me.
About Distingish aura for mom and baby... and if spirit will react differently, I don't have enough magic knowledge in Shadowrun to make an hypothesis on that.
Pps: An stressfull event/situation at the 3th trimestre can lead to delivery ( wich time vary a lot to a women to an other some push for 20 minutes some other (like me) 4 hours..) and delivery can be dangerous for the healt of the mother and the baby.
(Sorry I am tired and have some trouble with my english right now)
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My love just came back with intresting point, but we are leaving for the week-end, i will come back next week about that!! :)
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IIRC pregnancy is a negative quality. Aura reading can pick up your qualities. Ergo, aura reading can tell you are pregnant when you take the quality.
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And since an aura is an amalgam between your body's actual state - which for pregnancy is not entirely binary, but it can be made to believe it is - and your emotions, there'll likely be a very subtle change when you actually become pregnant, another one when you find out you're pregnant, still others (multiple others) when your body shifts to supplying different specific nutrients for the infant's development, and yet another when your body starts to shift in order to actually birth the child.
IMO, at no time before birth is the infant's aura going to be perceptible, for the simple fact that it's entirely encompassed by that of the mother. There may be differences in the aura of the mother, ones that are subtly different for one thing or another, that enable a very talented and knowledgeable aura reader to tell one way or the other if the child is a boy or a girl, or maybe even the race of the infant - but I think those differences would be noticeable relatively late in the game, far later than a simple amniotic fluid sample would give you the same information.
Spirits, depending on their sensitivity and interest, could have widely differing reactions. Anima and shadow spirits might be very interested indeed, but for totally different reasons ...
... though it's notable that the insect spirits in 'Missing Blood' did not know that a host was pregnant at the time of their investiture with the insect spirit, and so complications ... arose.
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Spirits, depending on their sensitivity and interest, could have widely differing reactions. Anima and shadow spirits might be very interested indeed, but for totally different reasons ...
... though it's notable that the insect spirits in 'Missing Blood' did not know that a host was pregnant at the time of their investiture with the insect spirit, and so complications ... arose.
Pregnancy would be entirely foreign to most insect spirits so that makes sense.
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Oh a whole bunch of interesting replies I missed. This is honestly a quality I don't think will be used often in games I'm more curious about the "real world" impact would be.
Wonder how the mood swings and forgetfulness mentioned would go with someone able to hurt fireballs when angry. Would you struggle to focus your magic or would it flow easier with a risk of accidents. Rather like being drunk as a mage could be very bad, worse really as a pregnant women doesn't lose her normal inhibitions like a drunk person can. Could be an extra argument for good maternity leave conditions though as I know post natal depression is a very serious problem today. You wouldn't want to lose a valuable asset because of the attitude towards depression present in a lot of countries today
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It still takes a hefty amount of concentration to cast a spell, so a simple mood swing isn't going to result in singed eyebrows or flaming spouses.
Not would I consider any of the negative effects of pregnancy that game changing. After all many women work up to the 6th month of pregnancy in the first world. (Up to the moment the kid drops in developing nations!) So while a little inconvenient, it's not detrimental...
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Raider, I know few women who took maternity leave earlier than a week or two before expected delivery, except in the case of health issues -- Generally they are saving as much leave as possible for after delivery. Maybe some European countries give pre-natal leave separate from post-natal leave?
In the SR world I'd expect that corps are actually pretty good at 'offering' child care once you reach some threshold of value to the Corp, and anyone awakened would easily clear that hurdle. I could imagine a lot of pressure to return to work quickly and pass your baby off to the caring hands of corporate daycare .... Strong mages might have enough pull to write their own rules a bit, but for the most part I'd expect awakened moms to miss under four months of work, unless there were magic related reasons that they would get more than other high value employees.
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Agreed with your point The Wyrm Ouroboros
. I will add that spirit can react differently depends on the magic tradition, may be?
Oh a whole bunch of interesting replies I missed. This is honestly a quality I don't think will be used often in games I'm more curious about the "real world" impact would be.
Wonder how the mood swings and forgetfulness mentioned would go with someone able to hurt fireballs when angry. Would you struggle to focus your magic or would it flow easier with a risk of accidents. Rather like being drunk as a mage could be very bad, worse really as a pregnant women doesn't lose her normal inhibitions like a drunk person can. Could be an extra argument for good maternity leave conditions though as I know post natal depression is a very serious problem today. You wouldn't want to lose a valuable asset because of the attitude towards depression present in a lot of countries today
Very very personnaly..I would say that, yes pregnancy and mood assiociate with can affect/ trigger uncontroled magic. (Best tip I can give you DO NEVER UPSET a pregnant women -I almost punch a costumer who want (without consentement) touch my belly) and I am normally very calm person-
I will also except form corp daycare facilities and support to help parent to go back at work soon as possible. Avrage Pregnancy leave turn around 14-16weeks in Europeans country. Will pregancy may offert less risk work, give new assignement in the corps (to keep the employe at work the longer possible. ) Probably they put pressure to go back at work
Last point: Philosophy of the corp with magic can vary to a corp from an other... First question to ask... How valuable are awakened people in this corp.
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Good points there. So less "You get more time off and perks because your a mage" and more "You get light duties and mandatory visits to the corp psychiatrist" ranging down to "You had the kid get back to work" depending on corp, culture and value attached to the awakened. Personally I think it'd be more the first one with the psychiatrist being variable depending on the corp.
Although on the subject of mood swings and fireballing the office jerk I do note that you were able to refrain from punching the customer, of course someone who's not normally a calm person could be a different matter.