Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: rfv855 on <03-27-13/1630:44>

Title: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: rfv855 on <03-27-13/1630:44>
Something which is actually bothers me when reading about attempts to take out great dragons. Shadowrun is 60 years in the future, and technology had all that time to develop.

Yet reading about attempts to kill great dragons strongly remind of what a military of a modern day third world country might try.

Great dragons are suppose to be a major treat to national security of major countries. Lets imagine that you have a major air based treat to say modern USA, which is already caused civilian casualties is tens of thousands range. The treat is also proved to be immune to conventional weapons.

I wouldn't expect a few helicopters, and a few fighters. I would expect 100 interceptors, armed with heat seeking air-air missiles with a tactical nuclear warheads. And the target being terminated within seconds of engagement. 

And that is only speaking of unclassified military capabilities.

Going to more classified stuff, there are fun weapons like Casaba-Howitzer (http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacegunconvent.php#id--Nukes_In_Space--Nuclear_Shaped_Charges)- a nuclear shaped charge based directed energy weapon. To put it short, it takes a city killing nuke, and concentrates most of energy released into a directed energy ray.

Which means you could put say a 10 megaton version on a satellite in a low orbit, and put enough of those in orbit to cover territory of the selected country. Combined with surveillance satellites, it would allow you to instantly vaporize any great dragon taking dragon form which entered your territory.

And Casaba-Howitzer was a weapon developed in sixties. It is very likely that military has more advanced weapons today.

Which leads to question- what happened to military in Shadowrun, and why any of great dragons which proved to be a treat to national security is still alive?

Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Critias on <03-27-13/1636:08>
This is something that's come up a lot over the years, peaking (perhaps) right after Ghostwalker's "ta-da!" self-introduction to the city of Denver.

You'll find that opinions vary wildly;  opinions of the setting's magical versus meat power levels, opinions on the power levels of dragons, opinions on the system's ability to run top-tier stuff and not fall apart mechanically, opinions on the intellect of dragons, opinions on the magical ability of dragons and their servants/allies, opinions on heavy firepower, opinions on sensors, opinions on all kinds of stuff.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: PeterSmith on <03-27-13/1802:48>
Without going into conspiracy theory areas (which it's easy to do here), you do know the largest air-to-air nuclear weapon developed had a yield of 1.5kt (AIR-2 Genie) and it was only rated for use on four aircraft? The weapon was taken out of service in 1988 as that was the year the F-106 was retired. If you want to go smaller, you have the AIM-26 Falcon. It was a guided missile (the Genie was an unguided rocket), had a yield of 250t (1/6th of the Genie), and left service in 1972 as the warheads were converted for use in the AGM-62 glide bomb. So if a Great showed up today, there wouldn't be any small nukes to toss at it.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Retrokinesis on <03-27-13/1805:12>
I'd imagine it hasn't happened because no one really wants it to. Consider: the United States and Russia alone have, today, enough nuclear weaponry to kill ever living thing on the planet several times over. Nothing, not even a Great Dragon, is going to survive even a fraction of that. Given the general unreliability of nukes in Shadowrun, I assume they've developed alternatives (see: Thor shots) that are even more potentially devastating.

So, yes, it's probably something they could do. But the dragons wouldn't go down without a fight and the damage would be catastrophic. There might not be much of an Earth left. Ultimately, the dragons won't start a war (no matter what Loftwyr pretends) because they'd ultimately lose and metahumanity won't because the cost of victory would be too high. It's better for everyone to just preserve the status quo and hope something else changes (probably the Horrors, but that's a whole different can of worms).

I wouldn't try to model any of it with SR4's game mechanics, though. It's not really set-up to handle things like 20 Thor shots crashing into a grade 30+ initiate dragon.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <03-27-13/1827:49>
The question might be "how long would a modern military last against a Great Dragon".  Even with weapons specifically designed to fight dragons, there's no guaruntee of the result.  And people seem to be forgetting that nukes only seem to work when something wants them to in the Sixth World, a dragon's magical defenses that would keep weapons from connecting, the possibility of a Redirect Thor Shot spell...
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Nath on <03-27-13/1843:57>
And people seem to be forgetting that nukes only seem to work when something wants them to in the Sixth World
Quite the opposite actually. In the novel Find Your Own Truth, it's something that does not want nukes to work. The other notorious nuclear weapons failure were the North Korean attack on Japan in 2006 and the Lone Eagle Incident in 2009, before the beginning of the Sixth World (as Israel counter-attack on Libya in 2004, that destroyed half Libyan cities). In 2030, nukes launched by India and Pakistan at each other position in the Kashmir in 2030 did explode.

Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <03-27-13/1852:40>
And people seem to be forgetting that nukes only seem to work when something wants them to in the Sixth World
Quite the opposite actually. In the novel Find Your Own Truth, it's something that does not want nukes to work. The other notorious nuclear weapons failure were the North Korean attack on Japan in 2006 and the Lone Eagle Incident in 2009, before the beginning of the Sixth World (as Israel counter-attack on Libya in 2004, that destroyed half Libyan cities). In 2030, nukes launched by India and Pakistan at each other position in the Kashmir in 2030 did explode.



Haven't read that one, but we're saying the same thing - nukes working properly is the exception, rather than the rule, and often when they do work it isn't as expected, as with the Cermak Blast.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Nath on <03-27-13/1939:55>
Haven't read that one, but we're saying the same thing - nukes working properly is the exception, rather than the rule, and often when they do work it isn't as expected, as with the Cermak Blast.
No, we're not.

North Korea is the most recent of the declared nuclear power, and their attack was made a desperate move while they were losing the war (and they lost it). The Lone Eagle was launched by Amerindian activists who seized control of a nuclear silo by force, while the Delta Force was in the process of shooting at them, and even if they did threaten to use it, there's still no proof they actually intended to make the move. The Cermak Blast happened when a small yield nuke was detonated right in the middle of an assembly of powerful insect spirits.

Lybia? It worked. Kashmir? It worked. French underground testing off the coast of French Guiana? It works. When there's no utterly specific context associated, nukes do work. Calling those the exception is reversing the burden of proof.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: All4BigGuns on <03-27-13/2014:33>
Quite the opposite actually. In the novel Find Your Own Truth, it's something that does not want nukes to work. The other notorious nuclear weapons failure were the North Korean attack on Japan in 2006 and the Lone Eagle Incident in 2009, before the beginning of the Sixth World (as Israel counter-attack on Libya in 2004, that destroyed half Libyan cities). In 2030, nukes launched by India and Pakistan at each other position in the Kashmir in 2030 did explode.

It's called "plot device" otherwise known as "it's in the script" :P
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Prodigy on <03-27-13/2047:40>
Also, great dragons have this awesome ability called Twist Fate. "oh look, the nuke was faulty"
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Wakshaani on <03-27-13/2114:47>
Yeah, nukes aren't reliable in the Sixth World. They *often* work, but they don't *always* work. Even if they do, setting off a nuke in your own land is ... well, risky. Great Dragons have access to a wide array of spirits and magics that aren't fully understood yet. When they aren't prepared (Hi, Firewings!), a couple of fighters can strafe them bloody and shoot them down with rockets ... they're ultimately just big winged dinosaurs. When they *are* prepared, you get Sirrurg fighting for hours, dodging strikes and exploding planes. How many shots were aimed at a dragon who was just an illusion while the real deal was invisible and 500 meters to teh left?

(Ack, company, back soon)
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <03-27-13/2345:23>
It's called "plot device" otherwise known as "it's in the script" :P

So the most powerful person in 2070, is the editor.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Supine on <03-28-13/0028:03>
Dragon's can't win if they don't have a world to live in.
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2086/30minutesorlessw.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/30minutesorlessw.jpg/)
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Reiper on <03-28-13/0345:54>
The question might be "how long would a modern military last against a Great Dragon".  Even with weapons specifically designed to fight dragons, there's no guaruntee of the result.  And people seem to be forgetting that nukes only seem to work when something wants them to in the Sixth World, a dragon's magical defenses that would keep weapons from connecting, the possibility of a Redirect Thor Shot spell...

Also, if one Great Dragon was attacked then there is a pretty good chance the rest would start working together to take care of the threats.

One great dragon is going to be very costly to take care of, even if it is a fast fight with high tech weapons, against multiples, you're going to lose the war.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <03-28-13/0527:26>
They probaly have all sorts of moles in various militaries and corps too, when they don't just own them outright. You know Dunk did.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Nath on <03-28-13/1400:34>
Also, great dragons have this awesome ability called Twist Fate. "oh look, the nuke was faulty"
The possible uses of the Twist Fate power require either the dragon to target "a creature it can see" (to negate the use of Edge), "a creature in its line of sight" (to force re-rolling any dice that hit)  or "characters in the dragon's line of sight" (to give Edge).
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <03-28-13/2311:23>
I think the question is, why are we fighting them directly? Dragons don't fight like that. Honestly I think we'd shred them with this sort of firepower. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZU-23-2 . The issue is, they never fight directly. They'd have us fighting each other.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <03-28-13/2313:23>
I think the question is, why are we fighting them directly? Dragons don't fight like that. Honestly I think we'd shred them with this sort of firepower. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZU-23-2 . The issue is, they never fight directly. They'd have us fighting each other.

You are underestimating dragons.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-28-13/2331:41>
You're also forgetting that Dragons can spend edge in all the normal ways, as well. The only (and I do mean ONLY) reason Aztlan got Sirrurg in the fix he was in was due to the fact that they used magic to turn his abilities back on himself. They hurt Sirrurg, but they couldn't finish him without that ritual. For what happens otherwise when a great dragon takes on a national military, see Aden's actions in Tehran and Ghostwalker's actions in Denver during the year of the Comet. Conventional weapons might wound a great dragon, but they aren't enough to kill it.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <03-28-13/2333:34>
You're also forgetting that Dragons can spend edge in all the normal ways, as well. The only (and I do mean ONLY) reason Aztlan got Sirrurg in the fix he was in was due to the fact that they used magic to turn his abilities back on himself. They hurt Sirrurg, but they couldn't finish him without that ritual. For what happens otherwise when a great dragon takes on a national military, see Aden's actions in Tehran and Ghostwalker's actions in Denver during the year of the Comet. Conventional weapons might wound a great dragon, but they aren't enough to kill it.

And given their hardened armour, let's emphasize "might".
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <03-29-13/0003:13>
I suppose that if this conversation is going to go anywhere constructive we need to break out WAR! and MRSI with Motor shells. The moment you tell me something is unkillable there is nothing i want more than to kill it. If the self destruct modification on a car  can kill one, there are other ways that will work just as well.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-29-13/0013:00>
I suppose that if this conversation is going to go anywhere constructive we need to break out WAR! and MRSI with Motor shells. The moment you tell me something is unkillable there is nothing i want more than to kill it. If the self destruct modification on a car  can kill one, there are other ways that will work just as well.
Damien, that wasn't the self destruct function on the car that killed Dunkelzhan. It was a nuke, contained within a barrier Dunkelzhan himself created just before detonating it, and even then it only happened because that was Dunkelzhan's way of killing himself to power a magical artifact to keep the Azzies from ushering in a Scourge the likes of which hadn't been seen since the Fourth World.

And yes, I may be downplaying that a bit.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <03-29-13/0027:13>
The big reason militaries around the world didn't go after the dragons when they first appeared was, most likely, due to all the WTF feelings everyone was experiencing.  Not to mention all the chaos that was happening simultaneously.  No one wanted to start something that could easily escalate into a strategic nuclear exchange (hint: NO ONE wins one of those).

The big 'D' was quick to assert to everyone that "Hey, we're all just folks around here" to everyone.  To "humanize" the dragons (so to speak) and provide everyone with some context with what was happening.  This made a lot of friends in the mundane world, friends which the dragons needed.  By the time all the weirdness got sorted out, dragons were a part of life (unusual, to be sure, but part of the world we live in).  The dragons, of course, took advantage of this time to settle in and figure out the new world they awoke into.

So now, 60 or so years later, everyone is used to dragons being around.  And the wizwurms now have the resources and allies they need to be serious trouble if someone should choose to try to off one.  As said earlier, the status is now quo.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <03-29-13/0049:09>
Okay, I don't know where we exactly draw the line between game mechanics and reality, but the car bomb in the text invokes the Chunky Salsa Rule. Also, no one here has yet to mention the big weakness for dragons in fluff... nanites.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mithlas on <03-29-13/0059:58>
The big reason militaries around the world didn't go after the dragons when they first appeared was, most likely, due to all the WTF feelings everyone was experiencing.  Not to mention all the chaos that was happening simultaneously.  No one wanted to start something that could easily escalate into a strategic nuclear exchange.
And the fact that they weren't viewed as necessarily hostile on first appearance. Ryumyo was a curiosity heralding the beginning of a new age. Now if he came in breathing fire, then great dragons would probably be hiding in camouflaged mountain enclaves because it would've started a precedent of "dragon appears, everybody drops what they were doing to band together and kill it".

And unless I misremember, weren't nanites part of one of the anti-dragon weapons in one of the books?
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <03-29-13/0112:48>
Okay, I don't know where we exactly draw the line between game mechanics and reality, but the car bomb in the text invokes the Chunky Salsa Rule. Also, no one here has yet to mention the big weakness for dragons in fluff... nanites.

Try Chunky Salsa with a nuke.  And how do you figure nanites are such an effective method?
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <03-29-13/0126:16>
The Clutch of Dragons, Page 128 under Tools of the Opposition, "Butch" states that they can't even benefit from beneficial nanites due to it sending their immune system into overdrive. Aztech is exploiting this to develop anti-dragon weaponry. Am I the only one who has this book? Six people have drawn blanks when i mention something out of it.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: All4BigGuns on <03-29-13/0137:33>
Try Chunky Salsa with a nuke.

Good luck finding a space strong enough to contain the blast that is also big enough for the draconic target. Even if you find such a location, good luck luring the big nasty in there.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <03-29-13/0140:40>
Try Chunky Salsa with a nuke.

Good luck finding a space strong enough to contain the blast that is also big enough for the draconic target. Even if you find such a location, good luck luring the big nasty in there.

In Dunk's case, I think it was that he put up a very powerful barrier.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Carmody on <03-29-13/0604:39>
Try Chunky Salsa with a nuke.

Good luck finding a space strong enough to contain the blast that is also big enough for the draconic target. Even if you find such a location, good luck luring the big nasty in there.

In Dunk's case, I think it was that he put up a very powerful barrier.
I guess so, which also means that they can build such a powerful barrier to protect themselves from such nukes... Maybe not without preparation however.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Sacredsouless on <03-29-13/0744:38>
The Clutch of Dragons, Page 128 under Tools of the Opposition, "Butch" states that they can't even benefit from beneficial nanites due to it sending their immune system into overdrive. Aztech is exploiting this to develop anti-dragon weaponry. Am I the only one who has this book? Six people have drawn blanks when i mention something out of it.

I'm reading Storm Front right now, in there they state that Blue-227 is a biochemical agent that mixes with a dragons blood and act as a coagulant or anticoagulant. The part that is specifically referenced is from "posts" by both Butch and KAM that specify the type of weapon, name, and its effects. Plus there is an extra bit from Black Mamba that says it has a side effect on meta-humans. It causes them to go into a rage, though how quickly and to what degree remains unknown (at least to me).

Pages are 23 for Butch/KAM and 31 for Black Mamba.


As for that bit about DK (car bomb and nuke, preventing massive nastiness), where is that? I've always wanted some more details on his murder/suicide.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-29-13/0904:54>
Read the Dragonheart Trilogy. It also is confirmed to be a nuke in the Praxis story in Artifacts Unbound.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: rfv855 on <03-29-13/1122:30>
About nukes going off, see Casaba-Howitzer-- the nuke goes off in space, where magic doesn't works, so dragon abilities can't affect it.

Also, the fun part about Casaba-Howitzer is that its power is based on the power of the nuke its based on. And taking for example design used for Tzar Bomba, there is no upper scaling limit- all you need to do is add more fusion materials.

So yes, if sufficiently motivated, it is possible to scale it into gigaton range. Which results in direct energy weapon, which when detonated in space, has enough kick to drill all the way through continental shell and into magma layers underneath it. Which is very likely to be enough to vaporize the great gragon which happens to be on the way. Unless he somehow manages to evade during 0.001 seconds between detonation and hit.

Yes we have the technology for that for 50 years or so now. We just never had hard enough targets to actually require using it.

Btw here is the actual article on Tzar Bomb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzar_Bomba)- it was a 50 megaton design, and the explosion was strong enough to cause damage to buildings from 900 km away. The 1 gigaton Casaba-Howitzer has a 20 times stronger energy output, concentrated on target.

And btw before somebody asks, I do like the 40k way of approaching problems :p

Realistically though, its most likely that 50 megaton Casaba-Howitzer will be more then enough. While causing less damage to environment :p
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mithlas on <03-29-13/1150:18>
The Clutch of Dragons, Page 128 under Tools of the Opposition, "Butch" states that they can't even benefit from beneficial nanites due to it sending their immune system into overdrive. Aztech is exploiting this to develop anti-dragon weaponry. Am I the only one who has this book? Six people have drawn blanks when i mention something out of it.
Quite possible - I know that I looked through the book at the local game shop, but I'm rather strapped for cash this season and didn't get it.

Something that I don't think many posters have paused to mention is how likely it would have been (before Aztechnology) that one of the world powers would have wanted to make an anti-dragon weapon.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Sacredsouless on <03-29-13/1229:19>
Well from my perspective, I think everyone either is or was working on some. What with Ghostwalker ruffled a few feathers with his actions in Denver, so did the dragon that messed up the middle east (I want to say it was Sirraug, but I'm not sure). And even if you are doing fine with the local dragons, I would still want to get something tossed up that my minions could use, just in case.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mithlas on <03-29-13/1246:09>
I do seem to recall one of the posters in Clutch of the Dragon mentioning something like wondering if SK was working on anti-dragon weapons, if just so they could have something Lofwyr would know wouldn't work against him if/when somebody tried to use it against him.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-29-13/1312:27>
Actually, rfv, any militarization of space (including Thor shots, which we already have) requires Corporate Court command and control. You release orbital weapons without approval from the CC, and you're staring down the wrong end of an Omega Order. And therein lies the massive hole in your plan. There are at least two great dragons that can have a 'personal chat' with their mega's Court justices (Lofwyr and Celedyr), and two more with major ties to megas on the court (Ryumyo and Lung). Moreover, when you start launching at targets not in extraterritorial areas, you need to start at least considering the local national government. In a place like Denver, you're talking about five national governments now (since the Azzies are back) and none of them are likely to be too pleased with you shooting off orbital weapons on their turf.

Long story short, even assuming you could get the thing designed and built without it turning into an Excalibur due to sabotage and shadowruns, and even if you could get it into orbit, the price for using such a weapon will far outweigh the benefit of taking down one dragon. Because in addition to all the problems I just mentioned, then you'll have the rest of the dragons coming after you. And they'll make Art Dankwalther(sp?) seem like an economic buffoon in comparison.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: rfv855 on <03-29-13/1412:33>
Remember though that we ain't talking some new technology- we are talking about technology which is decades old already, and more then a century old by Shadowrun time. So designing it won't be a problem- main problem is getting it into orbit unnoticed.

And as for rest of the dragons coming after you- this is exactly why you don't build one. You build 20+ of them, get them into orbit, then wait till you have exact location of every great dragon. Then wipe out the entire great dragon population in same time.

Something which I'm sure Aztechnology, Aztlan, Humanis, Black Lodge and some other organizations will highly approve of, and will be willing to combine resources for a common cause.

And once it done, Aztechnology can find plenty of reasons to protect the decision in Corporate Court- for example to protect metahuman kind, considering past actions of some great dragons. Also, having a few weapons remaining being targeted at other corporation's most valuable assets will probably help convincing Corporate Court that it was a necessary decision, after all. 
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-29-13/1428:49>
I'm sorry but no. First off, while nukes might be real, and the idea of tossing nukes in space are real, actually implementing a new weapons system (since two matrix crashes and multiple waves of global craziness probably means those plans aren't there any more) requires extensive time and testing, something you can't do with a weapon like this. This isn't like getting the local machine shop to make you a Colt 1991. We're talking orders of magnitude difference here.

Second, there would be no debate in the Court if someone unleashed 20+ orbital weapons all around the globe. That is instant Omega Order, period. Everyone will dogpile the offender and rip them to bloody shreds without mercy, because they know damn well that if the message isn't sent, then you might be on the receiving end at some point. That is the whole reason that orbital weapons require approval of the Court! Plus, you're either ignoring or forgetting that at least four members of the Court have very close ties to some of the Greats, including two that are literally in official positions of power. The Corporate Court will BURN YOU TO THE GROUND.

Third, go back to the point where I mentioned several posts back that Dragons have Edge, and can spend (or burn) it in all the same ways a normal character can. Guess what? That also includes the 'escape from death' thing.

Fourth, how in the hell are you going to get actual, real-time positions on all the greats simultaneously? Especially considering that they can take metahuman forms, know magic that can easily hide them from orbital scans, and so on. Hell, when Dunkelzhan died, all the dragons gathered to do the death dance for him, and not a single camera in the entire city managed to capture a moment of it.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Wakshaani on <03-29-13/1524:26>
You also have dragons that are, you know, smart. Sirrurg, when he took his followers into Puerto Rico, waited until a massive hurricane was heading in, used spiritual assistance to hide them, then proceeded to wreck face while air forces were grounded by the storm and spirits could be summoned that were agitated enough that they'd just break stuff without even being controlled. Humans were suffering the effects while bound spirits protected the dragons themselves from the worst of it, and it was just UGLY. When the storm left, so did the dragons, leaving destruction in their wake and not a lot that could have been done about it... planes weren't flying into that, missiles aren't so handy sans radar lock-ons, and so forth.

That said, military vs dragons in a smash-mouth fight? Dragons lose. They know it, and now humanity knows it. The questions is "where does this lead"?
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <03-29-13/2312:16>
Not good, that's were it leads, and for one very good reason. In the clutch of dragons it mentions one very bad fact... that all of the oceans are ruled by a single dragon, and she is collecting dragon eggs for an army. Right now we know that in a bid between her and us we'd have the dragons on our side because she'd be stepping on clawed toes. It would at least be a much bloodier war without them. I think something we also have to remember is that anti-dragon tech is decades behind what it would have been if not for DK helping to steady things.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Xzylvador on <03-30-13/1045:33>
@Mirikon: Wait, when did Aztlan get back in Denver?!

As for war, imo, odds are that some of the greats have access to more nuclear launch codes than the presidents of CAS and UCAS combined. For orbital bombardment, they'll find out you're building orbital weapons long before you can even get your first rocket in the air and will crush you long before achieving a position in which you can threaten them.
A great dragon isn't 'just a big flying dinosaur'. They're organizations run by the most intelligent being on the planet, with loyal (or highly paid, or  both) followers all aroung the globe, an unimagineable knowledge of magic and spend lots of effort and vast amounts of resources to get eyes and ears in everything which could potentially be of interest to them, whether that be next week or next century.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Wakshaani on <03-30-13/1201:13>
In the wake of Harle and Ghostwalker's dance, Aztlan rolled into the PCC-sector of Denver with some military oomph.

Lordy, but the Azzie-PCC-CAS border is getting ugly!
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-30-13/1415:25>
It is fairly evident that the Azzies sold the PCC their slice of Texas in return for the PCC not causing a fuss when Aztlan came back to Denver and took over the old Ute section.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: I_V_Saur on <03-31-13/0031:33>
Come 5th Ed, this is going to be an absurdly hot topic. We have all these setups - Stormfront, Dunkelzahn's suicide to prevent the Horrors, and everything else stated just in this topic alone. Each one has the capacity to erupt by 5th. If two or more do, (mathematically likely) at the same time, it'll be huge. All of them? (Mathematically unlikely, dramatically destined)

Now that's gonna be the new issue of War!
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <03-31-13/0040:14>
I've got to ask this, how exactly did the Bid D's death delay the horrors. I see how it can speed up our development with all the money his will throws around, but the only delay I can think of was Harlequin.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mad Hamish on <03-31-13/0053:00>
Willing sacrifices can provide a fair amount of magical umph in many magical belief systems. The willing sacrifice of a Great Dragon when he's had time to set it up...
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <03-31-13/0056:07>
Plus, he's guarding the bridge, now.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <03-31-13/0153:18>
You know I hate to say this, but in the grand scheme of things, why do we as runners care about the horrors? If i understand the situation (and Harlequin's prediction) correctly they either show up sometime soon and we get slaughtered... or powers far beyond our own hold them back the 2,500 we need to mount a proper defense. So as far as the game is concerned the threat is absolute annihilation or so far off there's no point in caring. I supposed it justifies a few plot lines to follow, but I have a hard time caring. And frankly I hate Harlequin so I'll take any excuse I can use to avoid him.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mithlas on <03-31-13/0205:35>
Well, beyond backdrop...it's already been mentioned at least once in this thread (if I remember right), and multiple times in other threads that magic activity can change in "spike" areas - these areas could allow some horrors to start breaking through early. I still think we're not going to see any sign of them until 7E at the earliest, but it's still a possibility.

Of course, a lot could change with Earthdawn separating from Shadowrun due to the owning companies going separate ways. Maybe.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <03-31-13/0232:04>
Well, Damien, you are right about it not really mattering to shadowrunners.  For 99.99% of the shadowrunners out there, anyway.  This information is relevant to those GM's who wish to center a game around the background metaplot.

If that's not the game your GM (or yourself) wishes to run, then it's just fun background trivia.  Take it, or not, as you will.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <03-31-13/1819:39>
I've got to ask this, how exactly did the Bid D's death delay the horrors. I see how it can speed up our development with all the money his will throws around, but the only delay I can think of was Harlequin.
A Great Dragon used all his power and his willing sacrifice to power a major magical focus, and, among other things, his spirit possessed a cyberzombie and went bodily into the metaplanes to stand guard on the bridge, all Gandalf vs. the Balor style.

The Horrors shouldn't show up in force any time soon. When they do show up in force, even the Great Dragons will be taking shelter underground for a few hundred years until the tide passes, because there are Horrors that can take a Great Dragon in single combat with similar results as if a Great Dragon took on an unarmed, unarmored, mundane human in single combat.

And yes, most runners shouldn't care, and wouldn't even know about such things. Until they got dropped right smack in the middle of them. I use the old Missing Blood adventure as a good analogy in this case. No reason for most runners to care what a (seemingly) harmless cult like the UB is doing, right? They provide soup kitchens, free clinics, and even keep down on the preaching. So there's no reason for a runner of the time to know they're kicking over a Wasp's nest until they're neck deep in it. That is what it is like with Horrors. At least for now. Mithlas is correct that the Horrors will not show up in force for a few hundred years, maybe a thousand. But it isn't like someone throws a switch, and then there's Horrors. It is like a rising tide.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <03-31-13/2048:53>
So yeah, heat death of the universe kind of scenario. too far out to care or not much we can do about it when it's time.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: rfv855 on <04-01-13/0346:48>
So yeah, heat death of the universe kind of scenario. too far out to care or not much we can do about it when it's time.

On the side note, if I was your GM and I was reading it, you would get a few Horrors in your very next mission  :P
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-01-13/0353:59>
So yeah, heat death of the universe kind of scenario. too far out to care or not much we can do about it when it's time.

On the side note, if I was your GM and I was reading it, you would get a few Horrors in your very next mission  :P

And thusly would your campaign end.

The Horrors are, at present, a completely insurmountable threat.  If they come through in 2075, everyone is screwed.  They are not something to use as an enemy for runners.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: rfv855 on <04-01-13/0449:37>
So yeah, heat death of the universe kind of scenario. too far out to care or not much we can do about it when it's time.

On the side note, if I was your GM and I was reading it, you would get a few Horrors in your very next mission  :P

And thusly would your campaign end.

The Horrors are, at present, a completely insurmountable threat.  If they come through in 2075, everyone is screwed.  They are not something to use as an enemy for runners.

There is a major difference between Named Horrors and a few minor ones though.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-01-13/0458:01>
So yeah, heat death of the universe kind of scenario. too far out to care or not much we can do about it when it's time.

On the side note, if I was your GM and I was reading it, you would get a few Horrors in your very next mission  :P

And thusly would your campaign end.

The Horrors are, at present, a completely insurmountable threat.  If they come through in 2075, everyone is screwed.  They are not something to use as an enemy for runners.

There is a major difference between Named Horrors and a few minor ones though.
So yeah, heat death of the universe kind of scenario. too far out to care or not much we can do about it when it's time.

On the side note, if I was your GM and I was reading it, you would get a few Horrors in your very next mission  :P

And thusly would your campaign end.

The Horrors are, at present, a completely insurmountable threat.  If they come through in 2075, everyone is screwed.  They are not something to use as an enemy for runners.

There is a major difference between Named Horrors and a few minor ones though.

Not such that it matters at the 'runner level.  You're still screwed.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: I_V_Saur on <04-01-13/2104:04>
Aren't Shedim minor horrors?

Generally speaking, upper-tier Runners end up in a lot of convoluted plots, intentionally or not. They're the playing pieces of the Greats, and similar powers. Deep mysteries are part and parcel of the level of play wherein your players can reliably, and safely, travel to Metaplanes, or provide enough damage that Greats would rather not fight them in-person.

Why not include Horrors into your campaign, once you've reached Prime Runner status with your entire party - like, say, Old Man Jones? Doesn't have to be on earth - they could be hired to investigate Dunkelzahn's death, or sent somewhere by Harlequin.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-01-13/2131:19>
Shedim are not minor Horrors. Like the Invae, they are a precursor. And they should not have shown up yet. Indeed, they wouldn't be here at all right now except Ghostwalker ripped his way through the Rift, which opened a path for them. When he sealed the rift, it stopped any new Shedim from coming over, for now.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Retrokinesis on <04-02-13/1207:08>
Shedim are not minor Horrors. Like the Invae, they are a precursor. And they should not have shown up yet. Indeed, they wouldn't be here at all right now except Ghostwalker ripped his way through the Rift, which opened a path for them. When he sealed the rift, it stopped any new Shedim from coming over, for now.
Can't Master Shedim still bring others through with Astral Gateway? Of course, that implies if you could kill all the the Masters you could end the Shedim threat for a few hundred years...
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-02-13/1912:56>
From the way Caimbeul and Icewing were talking when he went to deliver his declaration of war, the way is shut. Perhaps the Shedim's home metaplane is simply too far from ours to allow them to cross over at this point, just as the Horrors are too far. If we posit that the Invae's home plane is closest to ours (though still alien enough that they require a host to maintain their presence here at this time), and the Shedim are further away, and the Horrors further still, then it makes sense that, as the mana level rises, connecting to those planes will become easier.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: I_V_Saur on <04-05-13/2348:47>
From the way Caimbeul and Icewing were talking when he went to deliver his declaration of war, the way is shut. Perhaps the Shedim's home metaplane is simply too far from ours to allow them to cross over at this point, just as the Horrors are too far. If we posit that the Invae's home plane is closest to ours (though still alien enough that they require a host to maintain their presence here at this time), and the Shedim are further away, and the Horrors further still, then it makes sense that, as the mana level rises, connecting to those planes will become easier.

So, we can gauge the Horrors by watching numbers of Shedim?

Something to consider - have Dragons actually been off-world?
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-05-13/2351:12>
From the way Caimbeul and Icewing were talking when he went to deliver his declaration of war, the way is shut. Perhaps the Shedim's home metaplane is simply too far from ours to allow them to cross over at this point, just as the Horrors are too far. If we posit that the Invae's home plane is closest to ours (though still alien enough that they require a host to maintain their presence here at this time), and the Shedim are further away, and the Horrors further still, then it makes sense that, as the mana level rises, connecting to those planes will become easier.

So, we can gauge the Horrors by watching numbers of Shedim?

Something to consider - have Dragons actually been off-world?

Off planet?  No.  Neither they nor the Immortal Elves are capable of leaving the Earth's electromagnetic field, as I understand it.  Off of the Earth's plane, on the other hand?  Certainly.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: I_V_Saur on <04-06-13/0104:02>
From the way Caimbeul and Icewing were talking when he went to deliver his declaration of war, the way is shut. Perhaps the Shedim's home metaplane is simply too far from ours to allow them to cross over at this point, just as the Horrors are too far. If we posit that the Invae's home plane is closest to ours (though still alien enough that they require a host to maintain their presence here at this time), and the Shedim are further away, and the Horrors further still, then it makes sense that, as the mana level rises, connecting to those planes will become easier.

So, we can gauge the Horrors by watching numbers of Shedim?

Something to consider - have Dragons actually been off-world?

Off planet?  No.  Neither they nor the Immortal Elves are capable of leaving the Earth's electromagnetic field, as I understand it.  Off of the Earth's plane, on the other hand?  Certainly.

Well, that's certainly one way to deal with Lowfyr. "Everyone, immediate evacuation! The earth's atmosphere is being poisoned by a virus." "But what about Herr Director?" "Dragons are immune. See the report?"

That's one way to make good use of a bioweapon. Make sure that CC has to get people away from the Greats. Then you 'accidentally' Thor Shot everything left, and in about a hundred years you come back to reclaim your Dragon-free planet.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Nath on <04-06-13/0618:50>
Shedim are not minor Horrors. Like the Invae, they are a precursor. And they should not have shown up yet. Indeed, they wouldn't be here at all right now except Ghostwalker ripped his way through the Rift, which opened a path for them. When he sealed the rift, it stopped any new Shedim from coming over, for now.
Only the Invae was specifically said to take place before the Scourge and would be considered as a precusory event. Earthdawn history mentions no ther significant event of that kind before the arrical of the Horrors.

Physical undead creatures that Earthdawn makes mention have been nearly all created by Horrors: Cadaver Men (created by Horrors using their Animate Dead power), Ghouls ("created by the Horrors' arcane magic"), and other Horrors Constructs from Barsaive in Chaos (which can be considered off-limit for Shadowrun continuity).
The closest thing to shedim that Earthdawn has are Demiwraith, which are not described as Horror related, but nonetheless appeared "during the long years of the Scourge". However, they differ frm shedim as they were possessing living people and remained trapped into their body after their death.

I've still not ruled out the possibility that shedim ere something almost or completely unheard of during the Fourth Age (can't say about the Second Age) and that Ghostwalker broke the barrier that keep them at bay one way in his quest to bring back his loved one to life, and that Dunkelzahn broke it the other way to allow him to return.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-06-13/0804:01>
Actually, Nath, the undead in Parlainth and Vivien(sp?) would be quite like Shedim. And the ones in what would now be Egypt, setting up shop in the tombs would be similar as well. AFAIK, they didn't have direct correlation to the Horrors, but as the mana cycle rose, they started showing up.

From the way Caimbeul and Icewing were talking when he went to deliver his declaration of war, the way is shut. Perhaps the Shedim's home metaplane is simply too far from ours to allow them to cross over at this point, just as the Horrors are too far. If we posit that the Invae's home plane is closest to ours (though still alien enough that they require a host to maintain their presence here at this time), and the Shedim are further away, and the Horrors further still, then it makes sense that, as the mana level rises, connecting to those planes will become easier.

So, we can gauge the Horrors by watching numbers of Shedim?

Something to consider - have Dragons actually been off-world?

Off planet?  No.  Neither they nor the Immortal Elves are capable of leaving the Earth's electromagnetic field, as I understand it.  Off of the Earth's plane, on the other hand?  Certainly.
Not quite true. The Immortal Elves can go anywhere they please, but like all mages, their powers will suffer in the mana void outside the Gaiasphere. With Dragons, it is another story, as they are dual-natured, and the mana void will be a Bad Thing for them, unless they have sufficient astral armor (or hardened astral armor) to withstand the void. As it stands, I believe Lofwyr and Hestaby could survive a trip into space, as they both have Hardened Mystic Armor 20, so a Void of -12 (deep space) wouldn't harm them at all.

And yes, that means that there's always a chance that the picture of dragon bones on Mars from the Big D's will is legit. Don't know about the pyramid, though.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: rfv855 on <04-06-13/0957:43>
Not quite true. The Immortal Elves can go anywhere they please, but like all mages, their powers will suffer in the mana void outside the Gaiasphere. With Dragons, it is another story, as they are dual-natured, and the mana void will be a Bad Thing for them, unless they have sufficient astral armor (or hardened astral armor) to withstand the void. As it stands, I believe Lofwyr and Hestaby could survive a trip into space, as they both have Hardened Mystic Armor 20, so a Void of -12 (deep space) wouldn't harm them at all.

And yes, that means that there's always a chance that the picture of dragon bones on Mars from the Big D's will is legit. Don't know about the pyramid, though.

Why would they need to sleep during 5th world though (and risk being killed by dragon hunters), if they can survive mana void.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Nath on <04-06-13/1213:05>
Actually, Nath, the undead in Parlainth and Vivien(sp?) would be quite like Shedim. And the ones in what would now be Egypt, setting up shop in the tombs would be similar as well. AFAIK, they didn't have direct correlation to the Horrors, but as the mana cycle rose, they started showing up.
Actually, Nath, the undead in Parlainth and Vivien(sp?) would be quite like Shedim. And the ones in what would now be Egypt, setting up shop in the tombs would be similar as well. AFAIK, they didn't have direct correlation to the Horrors, but as the mana cycle rose, they started showing up.
The stats given for Parlainth undead or undead-like creatures are either Cadaver Men or Demiwraith. As said above, Cadaver Men were created by Horrors, and Demiwraiths "appeared during the years of the Scourge". For what I remember, Vivane was a pretty lively city.

That doesn't mean demiwraith and/or shedim don't require a given mana level and their presence isn't telling something about it. I'm just saying it may not be considered as good as an indicator as the Invae has been held for in the Fourth and Sixth Age (especially more if they don't appear before the Horrors actually do). It's not even sure that shedim were seen during the Fourth Age, and they only appeared in the Sixth Age after some really heavy magic performed by Dunkelzahn that was precisely intended to mess with mana level and what can or cannot enter our world.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-06-13/1443:01>
Not quite true. The Immortal Elves can go anywhere they please, but like all mages, their powers will suffer in the mana void outside the Gaiasphere. With Dragons, it is another story, as they are dual-natured, and the mana void will be a Bad Thing for them, unless they have sufficient astral armor (or hardened astral armor) to withstand the void. As it stands, I believe Lofwyr and Hestaby could survive a trip into space, as they both have Hardened Mystic Armor 20, so a Void of -12 (deep space) wouldn't harm them at all.

And yes, that means that there's always a chance that the picture of dragon bones on Mars from the Big D's will is legit. Don't know about the pyramid, though.

Why would they need to sleep during 5th world though (and risk being killed by dragon hunters), if they can survive mana void.
For one thing, it's not quite a void.  There is mana out there, but it is more accurately called a warp.  It would be like trying to survive a solar corona discharge event occurring 24 hours a day.  Hardened astral armor 20 could handle it, but it would likely be unpleasant and most certainly cause long term problems, making long term survival extremely unlikely.

During the 5th age, it wasn't that the mana was warped on Earth, it was almost absent.  Since dragons are highly magical (dual natured, and all that) they would be very weak and sluggish, and vulnerable.  Hibernating and hiding out would be the optimal survival strategy.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Parker on <04-06-13/2323:11>
  Thus, I submit my vote for Dragons being 'Ancient Astronauts'.  Why not, have their ancestors travel here from a defunct home-world, with a stop-over at Mars, (assuming that the 4th planet was habitable at that time), and a landing onto Earth.  Whose biosphere would allow them to hold ground against the 'Enemy'!  (insert dramatic score)  And since over 60% of the planet is covered with water, that may explain why none of us newer Named Races have located it. (their space-ship, I mean)
  And here's the kicker ;)  What if the Sea-Wyrm is an inherited as well as sub-racial role?  If she is the current guardian of the, (wait for it), Dragons' most valuable site, the remnant{s} of their 'ark' (as well as the eggs); then perhaps then this would add a new wrinkle in the events of the Dragon Civil War as its been described. :D
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-06-13/2337:03>
I'm more in favor of "ancient ASTRALnauts" than astronauts.  It seems far more likely.  A few might have tried entering the astral space around Mars (Mars used to be wet, you know) instead of Earth.  Or they might have been exploring.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Red Canti on <04-16-13/1819:41>
Try Chunky Salsa with a nuke.

Good luck finding a space strong enough to contain the blast that is also big enough for the draconic target. Even if you find such a location, good luck luring the big nasty in there.
How about said dragon's stomach.

Though good luck getting it in there intact, and surviving the attempt.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Bull on <04-16-13/1835:52>
I've got to ask this, how exactly did the Bid D's death delay the horrors. I see how it can speed up our development with all the money his will throws around, but the only delay I can think of was Harlequin.

Long story short (and greatly simpified), Dunklezahn's spirit (Bonded to a cyberzombie body and wielding a huge magical artifact like a hammer) is roaming the metaplanes and "flattening" any place where the magic starts to spike up, threatening to weaken the boundries between our realm and the realm of the GOO's.

Bull
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: CanRay on <04-16-13/2108:56>
Long story short (and greatly simpified), Dunklezahn's spirit (Bonded to a cyberzombie body and wielding a huge magical artifact like a hammer) is roaming the metaplanes and "flattening" any place where the magic starts to spike up, threatening to weaken the boundries between our realm and the realm of the GOO's.

Bull
DUNKIE SMASH!!!
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <04-16-13/2110:52>
That's just wrong... Funny, but wrong.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Red Canti on <04-17-13/1451:57>
That's just wrong... Funny, but wrong.
Care to give a more accurate synopsis? I'm only vaguely familiar with everybody's favorite presidential gecko.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Critias on <04-17-13/1503:50>
That's just wrong... Funny, but wrong.
Care to give a more accurate synopsis? I'm only vaguely familiar with everybody's favorite presidential gecko.
I think he just means "wrong" in the "I can't believe someone would compare Dunkelzahn to the Hulk, hah hah!" sort of way, not the "wrong" as in "factually incorrect" sort of way.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Red Canti on <04-17-13/1507:01>
That's just wrong... Funny, but wrong.
Care to give a more accurate synopsis? I'm only vaguely familiar with everybody's favorite presidential gecko.
I think he just means "wrong" in the "I can't believe someone would compare Dunkelzahn to the Hulk, hah hah!" sort of way, not the "wrong" as in "factually incorrect" sort of way.
Are you trying to tell me, given the opportunity you wouldn't vote for this guy?
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100205193908/marveldatabase/images/1/12/Nerd-Hulk-(Earth-1610).png)
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mithlas on <04-17-13/1629:17>
He'd have my vote. Consider the competition he'd be running against...

...his intelligence and probably anger-management would almost be guaranteed to be better.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-17-13/1726:26>
I still think we should choose all our leaders by Thunderdome.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Inconnu on <04-17-13/1834:50>
Doesn't radiation create a domain? And don't domains treat magic as (force) lower? That means that even if it wasn't lethal, a nuke would strip most of the hardened armor off a dragon like so much orange peel.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: CanRay on <04-17-13/2015:26>
I still think we should choose all our leaders by Thunderdome.
Considering a country stuck in a two-party system, that would probably be a superior way of doing it than it currently is.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-17-13/2038:25>
Oh, we have multiple parties in the U.S.  But only the two with the biggest bankrolls get noticed.  Yaknow...since they pay the media outlets (hint: easier now since there are only 6 media companies in the US).
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: I_V_Saur on <04-17-13/2112:59>
And down in Canada, any loon can basically say 'No, play with the numbers and make me PM', if they have enough corporate buddies.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-17-13/2119:04>
Hooray for dystopic politics!  Even closer to Shadowrun!
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: CanRay on <04-18-13/0119:29>
Hooray for dystopic politics!  Even closer to Shadowrun!
*Looks at Harper's rule recently*

*Sighs*

I just can't write stuff like this in fiction.  No one would believe it.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: I_V_Saur on <04-18-13/0327:00>
Hooray for dystopic politics!  Even closer to Shadowrun!
*Looks at Harper's rule recently*

*Sighs*

I just can't write stuff like this in fiction.  No one would believe it.

Next time you wonder how the hell a Corp can get away with shoveling all that shit, and not smelling it, remember the power of one single word - "No."

Different political oppositions keep on shouting facts at Harper, over and over. His response? "I advise you to check your facts." In the middle of the House of Commons. On national television. Live. Nobody called him on it.

That's how Shadowrun got to how it was. That's how a corporation can get away with murder. You bury all truth under a mountain of disinformation, lies, and bullshit.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Black on <04-18-13/0330:43>
I like to call it Truthiness

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness)
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: CanRay on <04-18-13/1416:52>
Next time you wonder how the hell a Corp can get away with shoveling all that shit, and not smelling it, remember the power of one single word - "No."

Different political oppositions keep on shouting facts at Harper, over and over. His response? "I advise you to check your facts." In the middle of the House of Commons. On national television. Live. Nobody called him on it.

That's how Shadowrun got to how it was. That's how a corporation can get away with murder. You bury all truth under a mountain of disinformation, lies, and bullshit.
The Opposition is lead by eunuchs.  If Jack Layton was still around...

OK, delving into serious Banhammer area, back to Dragons and Railguns.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Angelone on <04-18-13/2035:01>
THAAD and PATRIOT would give dragons some problems. Would have no issues tracking them at least.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mithlas on <04-18-13/2130:10>
Except that dragons, being magicians, tend to have Improved Invisibility, and likely have things like Physical Camouflage or Trideo Phantasm. Those affect technology as well as metahumans.

I think that in the 2070s, or even the 2050s, railgun technology (which we've already got working in small scale NOW and is likely being field tested in secret) would be more of an issue. Gauss cannons can hit them from so far away they never knew you were there, hard enough to hurt them, and in a package small enough that you could reasonably even expect to sneak a couple out and hit them from multiple angles without them knowing you were there unless they had supremely good intel - which, granted, dragons like Lofwyr probably do.

Good luck trying to survive the other dragons coming down on you for hurting one of their own, though.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: CanRay on <04-18-13/2141:25>
Anchored spells at high levels detecting high velocity objects are probably in place for most dragons.

I mean, all it takes is one Cessna into the nose to sting like hell to want that spell in place.  ;D
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Angelone on <04-18-13/2149:54>
Except that dragons, being magicians, tend to have Improved Invisibility, and likely have things like Physical Camouflage or Trideo Phantasm. Those affect technology as well as metahumans.

I think that in the 2070s, or even the 2050s, railgun technology (which we've already got working in small scale NOW and is likely being field tested in secret) would be more of an issue. Gauss cannons can hit them from so far away they never knew you were there, hard enough to hurt them, and in a package small enough that you could reasonably even expect to sneak a couple out and hit them from multiple angles without them knowing you were there unless they had supremely good intel - which, granted, dragons like Lofwyr probably do.

Good luck trying to survive the other dragons coming down on you for hurting one of their own, though.

Both work off radar and not sight. The also have ranges in the hundreds of miles. 
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-18-13/2202:03>
And that flight time gives a dragon plenty of time to dodge. Or just blast the missile from the sky. Assuming there aren't anchored spells in place to deal with such things, or bound spirits, etc. Same problem as with gauss guns. The spells to counter such things are already available, its just that no mortal mage can get enough mojo to cast them at that high a force without their brain bleeding out their ears.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Angelone on <04-18-13/2219:28>
Still can be used for spotting and keeping other things on target.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-18-13/2243:30>
Unless they use spells to make them invisible to radar. Shouldn't be too hard, actually, with the spell design rules in Street magic. See, you're making one of the classic blunders. The first is "never start a land war in Asia". The second is "never bet against a Sicilian when death is on the line". The third, and just as important, is "never expect dragons not to have a counter to your plans already in place before you begin planning".
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <04-18-13/2306:25>
Unless they use spells to make them invisible to radar. Shouldn't be too hard, actually, with the spell design rules in Street magic. See, you're making one of the classic blunders. The first is "never start a land war in Asia". The second is "never bet against a Sicilian when death is on the line". The third, and just as important, is "never expect dragons not to have a counter to your plans already in place before you begin planning".

Which explains why people want so desperately to kill one. The more godlike a character is, the more people want to wipe the smug grin off their face. I think we can leave this at "dragons are stated to hell and back, if you want to kill one then you need a car bomb. If you want to kill a great dragon you need a nuke... Where can i get some weapons grade uranium?"
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-18-13/2344:04>
Unless they use spells to make them invisible to radar. Shouldn't be too hard, actually, with the spell design rules in Street magic. See, you're making one of the classic blunders. The first is "never start a land war in Asia". The second is "never bet against a Sicilian when death is on the line". The third, and just as important, is "never expect dragons not to have a counter to your plans already in place before you begin planning".

Which explains why people want so desperately to kill one. The more godlike a character is, the more people want to wipe the smug grin off their face. I think we can leave this at "dragons are stated to hell and back, if you want to kill one then you need a car bomb. If you want to kill a great dragon you need a nuke... Where can i get some weapons grade uranium?"

No, if a great dragon wants to kill HIMSELF, he needs a nuke.  Otherwise, he could have used some kind of countermeasure.

As for gauss cannons, they tried those with some frequency.  It didn't work too well.  I suspect most dragons have multiple simultaneous sustained spells, which likely include something to the tune of "Redirect Projectile".  Meaning you simply can't shoot them with anything because they don't even have to dodge - it was never going to hit them in the first place.

Even with a highly, highly, highly specialized, powerful, nasty, specifically designed anti-dragon weapon and a massive ritual powered by a huge number of sacrifices using one of the most powerful artifacts yet discovered, the Azzies couldn't kill Sirrug.

Just because it has stats doesn't mean it can be killed.  Especially not when we're talking about dragons, whose stat blocks are typically explicitly incomplete.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <04-19-13/0018:25>
Just because it has stats doesn't mean it can be killed.  Especially not when we're talking about dragons, whose stat blocks are typically explicitly incomplete.

I wouldn't say incomplete, just loosely defined. SR4 gives us a good idea of a Great dragon's stats. Not that 20 or so Mystic Armor on top of prodigious health would encourage anyone to take them on. What I want to know is how much drain they're having to resist. Must be an incredible amount.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-19-13/0052:05>
Actually, a great dragon's hardened armor/hardened mystic armor is a critter power, not a spell, so there's zero drain for that. By the way, does an armor spell stack with the armor power?
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Prodigy on <04-19-13/0054:13>
Unless they use spells to make them invisible to radar. Shouldn't be too hard, actually, with the spell design rules in Street magic. See, you're making one of the classic blunders. The first is "never start a land war in Asia". The second is "never bet against a Sicilian when death is on the line". The third, and just as important, is "never expect dragons not to have a counter to your plans already in place before you begin planning".

Really? Princess Bride?

And remember, Dragons have mojo no one even knows about. Potentially teleportation. And that wasn't even a great dragon. Killing one would probably be incredibly difficult, even with an entire military force.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-19-13/0101:39>
Heh. I wondered who would call me on the reference.

Just remember, the only reason the assembled runners were able to finish off Alamais is because Lofwyr smacked him up and down the block, before making it so he couldn't even fight back as the humans got to unload at him. The Azzies scrambled the largest force they've ever put together in one place, pretty much, and still couldn't finish the job on Sirrurg.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Red Canti on <04-19-13/0107:30>
One way or another, they'd need to use Magic, though I'm not entirely sure what Magic would help, they'd want some twinked out Counterspell specialist certainly.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <04-19-13/0227:31>
I don't know if people really can kill a dragon. Didn't the world almanac imply that the one and only dragon to "die" by human hands didn't...and that she crashed in to the SOX and became some kind of horrible toxic dragon? Man, that's a cool and terrifying plot hook...
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-19-13/0238:45>
Well, let's just say this is one of those "Be sure to check the body" kind of situations. Firewings went down over the SOX, yes, shot down by fighter planes, but no one ever did check to find her body. Haeslich(sp?) got gunned down by Twist and his crew back in the 50s, but again, the body disappeared in the river. However, it is possible for metahumans to take down, even kill, adult dragons. It isn't easy, and you're going to need a lot of heavy guns (and luck), but it is possible. Taking down a Great Dragon, however, is another story altogether. Difference between an adult dragon and a great dragon is like the difference between High School baseball (maybe college) and the Major Leagues. For reference, the rest of us are middle school teams. For metahumans to take down a dragon, forget your A game, you need to be on that AAA game at least, and the dragon needs to be having a Bad Day. Metahumans taking down a great dragon (without another great dragon doing most of the work) takes, well, Aztlan almost got enough together to pull it off, but even they couldn't finish it.

Unless of course you're Harlequin, and can stand toe to toe with Ghostwalker and fight him in fragging silver plate mail like something out of a bygone world.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: CanRay on <04-19-13/0306:09>
Unless of course you're Harlequin, and can stand toe to toe with Ghostwalker and fight him in fragging silver plate mail like something out of a bygone world.
Do you think that was silver and steel he was wearing?  ;D
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-19-13/0504:52>
Unless of course you're Harlequin, and can stand toe to toe with Ghostwalker and fight him in fragging silver plate mail like something out of a bygone world.
Do you think that was silver and steel he was wearing?  ;D
Oh, of course not. But I'm not sure whether the Lightbringers will be brought forward to the Sixth World or not...
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-19-13/0751:25>
Just because it has stats doesn't mean it can be killed.  Especially not when we're talking about dragons, whose stat blocks are typically explicitly incomplete.

I wouldn't say incomplete, just loosely defined. SR4 gives us a good idea of a Great dragon's stats. Not that 20 or so Mystic Armor on top of prodigious health would encourage anyone to take them on. What I want to know is how much drain they're having to resist. Must be an incredible amount.

Actually, there are some cases where the stats are intentionally incomplete.  Harlequin's writeups, for example, explicitly state that the listed elements aren't all he's got, but rather all he's likely to need.  So, no, not just loosely defined - actually explicitly incomplete.

And that's a loose idea of a "weaker" great dragon - after all, the Armour from that power would be equal to their Magic rating.  So, in Hestaby's case, that's Hardened Armour of 52.  Good fragging luck.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-19-13/1006:53>
Naval vessel:ANTI SHIP RAIL GUN

Hestaby:  Meh, I just auto the soak.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-19-13/1116:57>
Hestaby has 36 magic, doesn't she? The remaining 16 dice are from her spellcasting. And her listened Hardened Armor and Mystic Armor are both 20, on top of a Body of 29. So nah, her soaking isn't that bad.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-19-13/1319:00>
Edge dice, anyone?

Just enough to put it there in pure numbers, if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <04-19-13/1713:57>
Actually, a great dragon's hardened armor/hardened mystic armor is a critter power, not a spell, so there's zero drain for that. By the way, does an armor spell stack with the armor power?

I meant the fact that not one seems to have fewer than 16 sustained spells on them at all times.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Xzylvador on <04-19-13/1810:05>
Frankly, I'm amazed people don't worry about the army of spirits floating around them.
They're a pretty amazing "first line of defense"... or offense.
Let's have a look at that F20 Beast Spirit Hestaby's got around her:
Body 22, Agility 21, Rea 22, Str 22, Cha 20, Int 20, Log 20, Edge 20, Magic 20
Init 42, 2 IPs, 40 Hardened Armor
Powers (amonst others): Fear, Movement, Concealment, Confusion, Guard, Natural Weapon DV=20P (Melee Attack Dicepool: 41), Noxious Breath, Venom

That's something she's got to tank or attack with without even having to lift a finger herself.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-19-13/2001:28>
Hestaby has 36 magic, doesn't she? The remaining 16 dice are from her spellcasting. And her listened Hardened Armor and Mystic Armor are both 20, on top of a Body of 29. So nah, her soaking isn't that bad.

I seem to recall 52 - think 36 may have been someone else.  In any case, it was incredibly high, going hand in hand with her being the greatest draconic spellcaster.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-19-13/2013:21>
Hestaby's magic in Street Legends is 36. Lofwyr's, by comparison, is 27. Hestaby also has Ritual Casting (Combat Spells) 17(+2), Spellcasting (Manipulation Spells) 16(+2), and Counterspelling (Combat Spells) 16(+2).
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-19-13/2020:32>
Wonder where I got 52 from.  In any case, good luck trying to get through Hardened Armour 36 plus whatever she might be able to do to augment that.

Good luck hitting something with a Force 36 Combat Sense, or some sort of redirection spell.  And so on.  Many things can be done by a mortal mage through the spell design rules, much less what can be done by the greatest draconic spellcaster.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-19-13/2052:07>
Actually, RHat, Hestaby has Hardened Armor 20, not 36. But one spell I saw on her list is really nice: Aspected Mana Static. Main reason you don't take Mana Static is because it screws with your own abilities as well as your foe's. With this, unless you're the same tradition, you can put the hurt on enemy mages/spirits, while those on your side are fine.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Bull on <04-19-13/2157:09>
Actually, a great dragon's hardened armor/hardened mystic armor is a critter power, not a spell, so there's zero drain for that. By the way, does an armor spell stack with the armor power?

Yes, just as an armor spell stacks with normal armor.

My favorite trick when folks try to kill dragons is to simply let them.  Then have the dragon turn up six months later, alive and well, because all they did was kill it's Force 30 Improved Illusion Spell :)
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-19-13/2247:57>
Actually, RHat, Hestaby has Hardened Armor 20, not 36. But one spell I saw on her list is really nice: Aspected Mana Static. Main reason you don't take Mana Static is because it screws with your own abilities as well as your foe's. With this, unless you're the same tradition, you can put the hurt on enemy mages/spirits, while those on your side are fine.

I seem to remember reading somewhere it was of a rating equal to their magic, but I could be mistaken.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Reaver on <04-20-13/0524:42>
I think the point is: even the/a military would have a hard time taking on a dragon.

COULD they kill one??? Maybe..... But that is a HUGE maybe and the losses in both equipment and manpower would be staggering. As in an almost total depletion of their combat troops.

I mean, just try to fathom what the stats are telling us. With logic and initition in the teens, they are smarter then the smartest human. EVER. I think the best quote I read to examplfy that was: "Lofwyr has dismissed a dozen great ideas by the time you have decided on breakfast".

Throw in all their draconic abilities, their legion of spirits, their horde of magical artifacts, and their vast fortunes and you have a beast that can only be killed by letting you kill it.

You can't "sneak up" on them. You can't "surprise attack" them. Sure you might be able to out gun them.... But that begs the question of why would one of the most intelligent sapients on the planet go toe to claw with an overwhelming force? They are far more likely to just evade your massive army (or bog it down with a ritual area effect... Say a blizzard, or hurricane) and then take out the Generals and other leadership of the attacking force.

I mean, if modern guerilla forces that number in the hundreds can evade and bog down modern military forces now, what could a dragon do????

As for the premise that "modern technology trumps a dragon, just launch missiles at it!". I ask you this, why can't the militaries/corporations find Aden's lair? Or Sirrurg's? Or Kaltenstien's??? All they have are guesses as to where their lairs MAY be located....
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-20-13/0529:11>
As for the premise that "modern technology trumps a dragon, just launch missiles at it!". I ask you this, why can't the militaries/corporations find Aden's lair? Or Sirrurg's? Or Kaltenstien's??? All they have are guesses as to where their lairs MAY be located....

It's known where Ghostwalker's is.  It's nothing to harm him.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Reaver on <04-20-13/0536:29>
As for the premise that "modern technology trumps a dragon, just launch missiles at it!". I ask you this, why can't the militaries/corporations find Aden's lair? Or Sirrurg's? Or Kaltenstien's??? All they have are guesses as to where their lairs MAY be located....

It's known where Ghostwalker's is.  It's nothing to harm him.

sure, launch an all out attack on a city of what? 4 million people at the intersection of 4? 5? different national governments and see what happens :D can we say "dog pile"? Can we say "public relations nightmare?" as the death toll and property damage mounts????

If you tried to evacuate the city before the attack, you can bet Ghostwalker would know what was happening and might do a little "pre-emptive strike" of his own..... right to the presidents, generals, and intelligence services of the attacking countries... And unlike the military's slim odds of taking out Ghostwalker, I give his attacks a high likelihood to succeed.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-20-13/0538:32>
His lair's under Cheyenne Mountain, as I recall.  Pretty defensible place BEFORE he took residence.  You don't go assaulting a dragon in their lair.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Reaver on <04-20-13/0549:37>
His lair's under Cheyenne Mountain, as I recall.  Pretty defensible place BEFORE he took residence.  You don't go assaulting a dragon in their lair.

Cheyenne Mountain?? Really????



wait, does that mean he has a stargate as well as magical artifacts?? :P
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-20-13/0552:28>
Wonder where I got 52 from.
That'd be an earlier discussion on the Lofwyr-Dar, where it got mentioned she has 52 dice on spellcasting: 36 Magic + 16 Spellcasting.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: rfv855 on <04-20-13/0717:22>
I see my other tread is closed. Anyway-

Why is everybody in Shadowrun is supposed to keep looking for most masochistic ways to fight the great dragons?

Great dragons are good at personal combat. Their abilities work in mana reach environments. So why does everybody seems to insist to fight them in the circumstances which are most beneficial to dragons?

Dragon abilities do no work in space. Their detection spells cannot detect whatever is located in space. Attack them from space, and assuming attack is fast enough, they cannot react fast enough to it. F52 Combat Sense spell won't do anything, if it got 0.0001 sec to worn the caster.

Edge can be used to save somebody from death. So make sure the attack covers wide enough area, to make it impossible even with Edge.

Do not know where the great dragon is? Capture some lesser one, which serves the great one, and start vivisecting it alive. Broadcast it live on whatever channel that the targeted dragon is likely to notice. You will have the exact location of the great dragon soon enough. Then just vaporize the area.

Need magic to fight a great dragon, and regular mages obviously can't pull it out? There is a reason why Dunkelzahn put a price on heads of blood and toxic mages- they are exactly the ones which can threaten dragons. Find some toxics which are possible to work with (not the eco terrorists probably, but there are plenty of other types), give it some time till you know which ones can follow orders, then provide them with toxic location with 12 background count aspected to toxic magic. Then let the dragons have fun fighting F25 toxic spirits. Collect some hobos in whatever hellhole where nobody will ask questions, plenty of those in Africa, and see what kind of ritual a coven of blood mages can pull on a great dragons, assuming it starts with "sucrifice 10.000 metahumans". Which is also most likely what Great Ghost Dance was, except that they made is with lesser numbers, since sacrifices were willing.

According to some articles, today there are gen engineered bio weapons, able to affect targets with specific gen markers (such as "only kill somebody with genes responsible for blue eyes and white heir, somebody without the genes will only be a carrier", or "targets those with combination of genes commonly found only in specific nationality"). Make those targeting specific genes which present in dragonforms (drake and similar), make sure the effects are 100% lethal, and release it. Might not kill the great dragons, but will wipe out lot of their servants, and with some luck at least some of eggs.

The Casaba-Howitzer that I mentioned earlier? The weapon exists for 50+ years, so most likely all tests are already done, and matrix crash or not, data about top grade military weapons tends to be kept in safe locations (for example, offline storage, located in atomic bunker). So no, weapon plans most likely ain't lost.

Corporate Council might issue Omega Order? Plenty of those who wish to change it/get rid of it- Aztechnology, plenty of states, ets. Once the attack on dragons started, threaten to respond to Omega Order with massive orbital bombardment, backed up by toxic and blood magic (which you just demonstrated on dragons that you are fully capable of). Then reform it- without any corporations with ties to dragons. And issue Omega Order on those.

For that matter, the important question is- who is more dangerous enemy to metahumans- Horrors, which will only arrive in a several thousand years, when most of metahumanity will most likely live off planet anyway, and as such out of reach of Horrors, or dragons- which are trying to take over metahumanity now, and which, looking at Amazonia, will treat metahumans as second class citizens at best, and food at worst.



 
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-20-13/0732:08>
The Azzies tried a lot of that, RFV.  They failed to kill Sirrug.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Xzylvador on <04-20-13/0747:49>
Now explain to me how any of those plans can be pulled off without the Greats finding out about it long before it can be excecuted.

Because, really, orbital weapon platforms can easily be built without anyone noticing. </sarcasm>
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Reaver on <04-20-13/0901:38>
I see my other tread is closed. Anyway-

Why is everybody in Shadowrun is supposed to keep looking for most masochistic ways to fight the great dragons?

Great dragons are good at personal combat. Their abilities work in mana reach environments. So why does everybody seems to insist to fight them in the circumstances which are most beneficial to dragons?

Dragon abilities do no work in space. Their detection spells cannot detect whatever is located in space. Attack them from space, and assuming attack is fast enough, they cannot react fast enough to it. F52 Combat Sense spell won't do anything, if it got 0.0001 sec to worn the caster.

Edge can be used to save somebody from death. So make sure the attack covers wide enough area, to make it impossible even with Edge.

Do not know where the great dragon is? Capture some lesser one, which serves the great one, and start vivisecting it alive. Broadcast it live on whatever channel that the targeted dragon is likely to notice. You will have the exact location of the great dragon soon enough. Then just vaporize the area.

Need magic to fight a great dragon, and regular mages obviously can't pull it out? There is a reason why Dunkelzahn put a price on heads of blood and toxic mages- they are exactly the ones which can threaten dragons. Find some toxics which are possible to work with (not the eco terrorists probably, but there are plenty of other types), give it some time till you know which ones can follow orders, then provide them with toxic location with 12 background count aspected to toxic magic. Then let the dragons have fun fighting F25 toxic spirits. Collect some hobos in whatever hellhole where nobody will ask questions, plenty of those in Africa, and see what kind of ritual a coven of blood mages can pull on a great dragons, assuming it starts with "sucrifice 10.000 metahumans". Which is also most likely what Great Ghost Dance was, except that they made is with lesser numbers, since sacrifices were willing.

According to some articles, today there are gen engineered bio weapons, able to affect targets with specific gen markers (such as "only kill somebody with genes responsible for blue eyes and white heir, somebody without the genes will only be a carrier", or "targets those with combination of genes commonly found only in specific nationality"). Make those targeting specific genes which present in dragonforms (drake and similar), make sure the effects are 100% lethal, and release it. Might not kill the great dragons, but will wipe out lot of their servants, and with some luck at least some of eggs.

The Casaba-Howitzer that I mentioned earlier? The weapon exists for 50+ years, so most likely all tests are already done, and matrix crash or not, data about top grade military weapons tends to be kept in safe locations (for example, offline storage, located in atomic bunker). So no, weapon plans most likely ain't lost.

Corporate Council might issue Omega Order? Plenty of those who wish to change it/get rid of it- Aztechnology, plenty of states, ets. Once the attack on dragons started, threaten to respond to Omega Order with massive orbital bombardment, backed up by toxic and blood magic (which you just demonstrated on dragons that you are fully capable of). Then reform it- without any corporations with ties to dragons. And issue Omega Order on those.

For that matter, the important question is- who is more dangerous enemy to metahumans- Horrors, which will only arrive in a several thousand years, when most of metahumanity will most likely live off planet anyway, and as such out of reach of Horrors, or dragons- which are trying to take over metahumanity now, and which, looking at Amazonia, will treat metahumans as second class citizens at best, and food at worst.

your entire plan seems to rest on 3 things:

1: Technology that can only be found on SCIENCE FICTION webpages (I looked for  Casaba-Howitzers, AKA Orion engines, on REPUTABLE science websites... and came up with nothing except for a theory that was proposed and received military funding around the same time as the US military was also researching psionic powers, UFO, Crop circles and Neutron theory teleportation.... and most of those projects have shown to be dis-information subterfuge for the USSR during the cold war.... (meaning... nothing was actually done)

2: some crazy wack job of an insane moron is willing to risk Global extinction to kill a SINGLE dragon (100s of nukes... really? REALLY????) far more likely this shit-for-brains would be locked up in the nut house LONG before he got the chance to command the Latrine corps, let alone had any actual military clout.

3: unleashing a Toxic Hell on the planet by gathering a "few hundred" toxic shamans and convincing them to help you (aka the military) Sure.... and then they will all go back to their nice little crazy towns and be good little peons. More likely the Shamans use the wonderful resources that YOU just gave them and level several countries into toxic sludge. Toxic shamans are CRAZY. They do not play well with their own kind, let alone anyone else. They wouldn't give a rats ass about your feud with scaly kind  would just kill you. And yea, the Asshole who gathers up hundreds of people to sacrifice to blood mage would be a wonder guy to live with!

"All right, go into the slums of Africa and get me all homeless so I can have fuel this huge blood magic ritual so I can take out a dragon!"

 I imagine the next thing you would hear would the rapport of a pistol, followed by the wet smacking sound of grey matter on a wall as someone put this clearly insane bozo out of his misery.

Lets not take into consideration that the mage/shaman has to resist drain and try to maintain control of the toxic/blood spirit. Which at Force 25 is HIGHLY FRICKEN UNLIKELY!!! More like, mage summons force 25 blood spirit. Mage suffers aneurysm and dies. Blood spirit eats everyone else there.

Lets look some other incredibly silly things you had to say shall we??
Quote

Do not know where the great dragon is? Capture some lesser one, which serves the great one, and start vivisecting it alive. Broadcast it live on whatever channel that the targeted dragon is likely to notice. You will have the exact location of the great dragon soon enough. Then just vaporize the area.


Okaaaaayyyyyy....  lets looks at the "Dumber of the 2 dragons that street legends gave us stats for: Hestabey: with a logic of 19 and an inituition of 20 only makes her 3 times smarter then the SMARTEST human. EVER. So you know your plan? That great one I just linked up top? She sees through that. Last decade. Before lunch. And she thought it was pretty typical of a moronic Human... very unimaginative. And has thrown out at least 2 dozen counter options. Before settling on the half dozen or so that she randomly picks through to counter this silly, unimaginative plan. Before breakfast.

 Yes, she is THAT smart. (and she's the DUMB one!!)

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According to some articles, today there are gen engineered bio weapons, able to affect targets with specific gen markers (such as "only kill somebody with genes responsible for blue eyes and white heir, somebody without the genes will only be a carrier", or "targets those with combination of genes commonly found only in specific nationality"). Make those targeting specific genes which present in dragonforms (drake and similar), make sure the effects are 100% lethal, and release it.

And did your reading also tell you why Bio weapons are a serious 'No-no' for all but the mentally retarded? Bio-logical weapons have a nasty habit of mutating when in the wild. look at the common cold virus, or H1N1 or H1N7, or Anthrax... There are lots of viruses out there that only affected ONE species.. until they did what all good viruses do, and mutated. So your wonderful "kill the talking Lizard Virus" could end up mutating along the way and become the "Kill Fungi, and talking Lizard Virus"... thus killing off 80% of the food sources on the planet for people to eat! Hurray for Pyrrhic victories! Of course there is also the fact that Dragons are Dual natured entities... meaning that half their Genome is not even visible to science (if I remember right), so your "Kill the talking lizard" virus COULD actually be a "supercharge talking lizards" virus. (in essence, you just made them stronger!!)

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Dragon abilities do no work in space. Their detection spells cannot detect whatever is located in space. Attack them from space, and assuming attack is fast enough, they cannot react fast enough to it. F52 Combat Sense spell won't do anything, if it got 0.0001 sec to worn the caster.

ok, you MAY BE right here.... except for a few small details. It takes time, planning and resources to anything INTO space... let alone build anything in space. That is an avenue and a risk for people (let alone DRAGONS with their vast networks of operatives) to learn of your plan and shut you down right away before your plan even got off the ground (Please refer back to the intelligence of dragons above)
What exactly IS the range of an extended range detection spell? (it's ForceXMagicx10meters... I looked it up for you) So Hestaby can cast a detection spell with a range of 36(f) X 36(m) X 10meters which is 12960 meters, or a little less than 13 km RADIUS! better not be anywhere near her when you are making all your plans...  or she could possibly know!! (and decide to eat you)


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Corporate Council might issue Omega Order? Plenty of those who wish to change it/get rid of it- Aztechnology, plenty of states, ets. Once the attack on dragons started, threaten to respond to Omega Order with massive orbital bombardment, backed up by toxic and blood magic (which you just demonstrated on dragons that you are fully capable of). Then reform it- without any corporations with ties to dragons. And issue Omega Order on those.

YEEAAAA.... where to begin on this one.... first off, the most powerful militaries out there in the SR universe are actually in the corporation's hands. the FEW superpowers that remain still have sizable military might, but not enough to wave a middle finger at the combined force of even two or three megas... let alone 5 (SK, NEONET, MITs, Renraku, Wuxing all have dragon allies... and those are just the ones we know about. AZT has several dragons, but they are the only Corp I actually consider wacky enough to remotely try something)
and you are forgetting a BIG factor. that is Space is the domain of the megas! Nothing gets up the pipe without Them knowing about it. Heck even today NASA tracks every item in space over 1cm in length so they can help re-position satellites and avoid catastrophic damage due to collisions. Ares bought NASA back in the 20s!!! So the more likely scenario is the Corp Court takes over your space weapons, laughs at you, and tells you to go stand in the corner.
The truly sad thing is that versus a Country, the Corp Court wouldn't issue an Omega Order. They don't need to. (at least not the way you are thinking!) Since the Megas, as a combined entity control well over 90% of everything, they simply turn it all off. No Banks, No lights, No Matrix, No food coming in, No fresh water. They just simply say "you get squat until you start listening to us and drop your puerile little idea of a war on Dragons." The citizens of the country would do the rest in short order... especially with the masters of Spin (Horizon) handling the PR for the Megas.



So, any other silly, hair-brained ideas  of how someone could wage a war on Dragons and survive?
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: rfv855 on <04-20-13/1003:25>
Imao.


your entire plan seems to rest on 3 things:

1: Technology that can only be found on SCIENCE FICTION webpages (I looked for  Casaba-Howitzers, AKA Orion engines, on REPUTABLE science websites... and came up with nothing except for a theory that was proposed and received military funding around the same time as the US military was also researching psionic powers, UFO, Crop circles and Neutron theory teleportation.... and most of those projects have shown to be dis-information subterfuge for the USSR during the cold war.... (meaning... nothing was actually done)

Wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nuclear_propulsion%29). Scroll down for links, including ones on NASA  site. But nice to know that you didn't managed to do even that on your own.

2: some crazy wack job of an insane moron is willing to risk Global extinction to kill a SINGLE dragon (100s of nukes... really? REALLY????) far more likely this shit-for-brains would be locked up in the nut house LONG before he got the chance to command the Latrine corps, let alone had any actual military clout.

Are you aware of the number of nukes in arsenal of say USA today- even when the Cold War is over?  ::) And why would you need to detonate 100s of the nukes to kill a single dragon? And how would you cause global extinction with 100 nukes? In case you referring the nuclear winter, are you even aware of what it actually is, and why it might happen?

3: unleashing a Toxic Hell on the planet by gathering a "few hundred" toxic shamans and convincing them to help you (aka the military) Sure.... and then they will all go back to their nice little crazy towns and be good little peons. More likely the Shamans use the wonderful resources that YOU just gave them and level several countries into toxic sludge. Toxic shamans are CRAZY. They do not play well with their own kind, let alone anyone else. They wouldn't give a rats ass about your feud with scaly kind  would just kill you.

Go read the section about toxic shamans again. Not all of them are eco terrorists, plenty of types are possible to work with. And obviously you make sure you can terminate the less controlled ones, once you don't need them- wipe the area from space if you want to be sure.


And yea, the Asshole who gathers up hundreds of people to sacrifice to blood mage would be a wonder guy to live with!

"All right, go into the slums of Africa and get me all homeless so I can have fuel this huge blood magic ritual so I can take out a dragon!"

 I imagine the next thing you would hear would the rapport of a pistol, followed by the wet smacking sound of grey matter on a wall as someone put this clearly insane bozo out of his misery.

You might want to check the numbers of local population in Africa which die annually from polluted water, food shortages, civil wars and similar. Yes, they can't vote, and Africa has plenty of useful resources, so nobody cares.

Lets not take into consideration that the mage/shaman has to resist drain and try to maintain control of the toxic/blood spirit. Which at Force 25 is HIGHLY FRICKEN UNLIKELY!!! More like, mage summons force 25 blood spirit. Mage suffers aneurysm and dies. Blood spirit eats everyone else there.

See the part about 12 background count aspected to toxic mage. It helps with summoning. As for using blood magic, see how it was done with Ghost Dance. Or how Aztechnology uses it. Just increase the scales.

Lets look some other incredibly silly things you had to say shall we??

So far I see only you posting crap actually.

Okaaaaayyyyyy....  lets looks at the "Dumber of the 2 dragons that street legends gave us stats for: Hestabey: with a logic of 19 and an inituition of 20 only makes her 3 times smarter then the SMARTEST human. EVER. So you know your plan? That great one I just linked up top? She sees through that. Last decade. Before lunch. And she thought it was pretty typical of a moronic Human... very unimaginative. And has thrown out at least 2 dozen counter options. Before settling on the half dozen or so that she randomly picks through to counter this silly, unimaginative plan. Before breakfast.

For some reason, I don't remember Logic giving divination powers in Shadowrun. And I'm pretty sure I remember one of Hestabey's shamans being taken out by a human with a sniper rifle, without her thinking of it a decade before.

Yes, she is THAT smart. (and she's the DUMB one!!)

Yes, that smart indeed.

And did your reading also tell you why Bio weapons are a serious 'No-no' for all but the mentally retarded? Bio-logical weapons have a nasty habit of mutating when in the wild. look at the common cold virus, or H1N1 or H1N7, or Anthrax... There are lots of viruses out there that only affected ONE species.. until they did what all good viruses do, and mutated. So your wonderful "kill the talking Lizard Virus" could end up mutating along the way and become the "Kill Fungi, and talking Lizard Virus"... thus killing off 80% of the food sources on the planet for people to eat! Hurray for Pyrrhic victories! Of course there is also the fact that Dragons are Dual natured entities... meaning that half their Genome is not even visible to science (if I remember right), so your "Kill the talking lizard" virus COULD actually be a "supercharge talking lizards" virus. (in essence, you just made them stronger!!)

Which is why you make it so it targets specific cell mechanisms, which are present in dragons, but not in say fungi. Plenty of those. As for "supercharge talking lizards", are you aware that we don't live in Superman comics?

ok, you MAY BE right here.... except for a few small details. It takes time, planning and resources to anything INTO space... let alone build anything in space. That is an avenue and a risk for people (let alone DRAGONS with their vast networks of operatives) to learn of your plan and shut you down right away before your plan even got off the ground (Please refer back to the intelligence of dragons above)
What exactly IS the range of an extended range detection spell? (it's ForceXMagicx10meters... I looked it up for you) So Hestaby can cast a detection spell with a range of 36(f) X 36(m) X 10meters which is 12960 meters, or a little less than 13 km RADIUS! better not be anywhere near her when you are making all your plans...  or she could possibly know!! (and decide to eat you)

What exactly are you planning to build in space here? Casaba-Howitzer is a modified nuke, you build it on Earth, and then send it ready for use. Just add some maneuver mechanisms, so you can point it at targets. Which is, again, technology used today- for decades- with satellites.

And which kind of detection spell are you planning to detect it with? "Detect everything which might affect dragons in negative way, and anybody who dislike dragons"? Are you aware how much info that spell, extended to 13 km, will get in populated area? I believe you said something about aneurysm above?

YEEAAAA.... where to begin on this one.... first off, the most powerful militaries out there in the SR universe are actually in the corporation's hands. the FEW superpowers that remain still have sizable military might, but not enough to wave a middle finger at the combined force of even two or three megas... let alone 5 (SK, NEONET, MITs, Renraku, Wuxing all have dragon allies... and those are just the ones we know about. AZT has several dragons, but they are the only Corp I actually consider wacky enough to remotely try something)
and you are forgetting a BIG factor. that is Space is the domain of the megas! Nothing gets up the pipe without Them knowing about it. Heck even today NASA tracks every item in space over 1cm in length so they can help re-position satellites and avoid catastrophic damage due to collisions. Ares bought NASA back in the 20s!!! So the more likely scenario is the Corp Court takes over your space weapons, laughs at you, and tells you to go stand in the corner.

Works much better when you have corporations- Aztechnology for example- on the board, willing to assist with the plan. And to call the new satellites, for example, "Aztechnology weather detection satellites". Or whatever appropriate.

Not to mention, that the 5 corps above will, most likely, too busy sorting out wreckage, when their dragon shareholders die, to be able to come with any meaningful response to announcement "We have nukes in orbit ready to wipe out your major holdings, as well as few dozens Great Form toxic spirits, in case you even breath wrong".

The truly sad thing is that versus a Country, the Corp Court wouldn't issue an Omega Order. They don't need to. (at least not the way you are thinking!) Since the Megas, as a combined entity control well over 90% of everything, they simply turn it all off. No Banks, No lights, No Matrix, No food coming in, No fresh water. They just simply say "you get squat until you start listening to us and drop your puerile little idea of a war on Dragons." The citizens of the country would do the rest in short order... especially with the masters of Spin (Horizon) handling the PR for the Megas.

Which is why plenty of countries will jump on chance for a combined corp-country Council, will a more equal representing. Not to mention, that all corporate holding which belong to dragon supporting corps, get nationalized 0.001 seconds after "wipe the dragons" plan is activated. In case any corp objects, see "nukes targeted at your HQ" part above.

So, any other silly, hair-brained ideas  of how someone could wage a war on Dragons and survive?

Donno, still hadn't managed to come up with anything more retarded then "I can't even look up in wikipedia".
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-20-13/1029:28>
Ok, to boil this down a bit from the rambling and douse the flames a bit:

Could any of the greats get taken out by the militaries?  Sure, but it requires a lot of effort and planning.  Is it impossible?  No, not in the slightest.  It's not even that improbable.  It IS, however, a huge drain on resources, and destructive to the bottom line.  With the extensive interdependency present in the SR era (heck, just look at our modern systems) taking out a great would have a large impact upon the economies of the world.

Money, my friends, makes the world go around (much more so in SR times).  It takes something catastrophic for any of the major players to decide to get into a dust up, simply because of the costs involved.  So the easy way to avoid it is to make it more cost effective just to go along with whoever is causing trouble.

I will say it, again.  Money.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Reaver on <04-20-13/1032:02>
oh I found the Orion engine. just nothing about Casaba-Howitzers that wasn't solely on Science fiction write ups or linked to counter espionage. Please provide a link to Casaba-Howitzers and not engines.

And you seem to be missing to point about Corporations; they are around to do one thing only, make money. Wiping out half the earth with "nuclear directed plasma weapons" kinda hurts the bottom JUST a little.

As for hundreds of nukes, hey you're the one who talks about it in your opening post :D

Toxic Shamans ARE nuts. As in off the deep end, totally insane bat shit crazy. Even the mild ones are missing more then a few dozen screws... and they just degenerate.

Blood mages and Magic, like the ghost dance.. sure that would work.. it only killed what? half the dancers? great idea.

In 2006 alone, 36 million people died of malnutrition issues. over 80% of them where in the African continent. Add wars to that number, its closer to 73 million and 87%. Very sad when you consider that we currently have the production capacity to feed approximately 11 billion people.....





*******

So I am going to go with Mirikions original assessment: you're a Troll.

Please people, remind not to feed the Trolls.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: rfv855 on <04-20-13/1127:30>
The_Gun_Nut- its quite possible to find ways to recover the expenses. For countries, its nationalization of corporate resources (of corps run by dragons). For Aztechnology, its getting rid of large part of the competition- for good. Which helps with bottom line in the long run.

oh I found the Orion engine. just nothing about Casaba-Howitzers that wasn't solely on Science fiction write ups or linked to counter espionage. Please provide a link to Casaba-Howitzers and not engines.

What kind of info on classified military technology are you expecting to find on open sites?

And you seem to be missing to point about Corporations; they are around to do one thing only, make money.

See above.

Wiping out half the earth with "nuclear directed plasma weapons" kinda hurts the bottom JUST a little.

As for hundreds of nukes, hey you're the one who talks about it in your opening post :D

Please point to my post suggesting to wipe out half the Earth. Or to use of any nukes beyond what is required to take out the dragons, and to possibly issue a warning to dragon supporting corporations after fact. 

Toxic Shamans ARE nuts. As in off the deep end, totally insane bat shit crazy. Even the mild ones are missing more then a few dozen screws... and they just degenerate.

You are missing my point. It doesn't matters if they like to drink from toilet and wear pants on their head, what matters is if they can deliver what is required.

Blood mages and Magic, like the ghost dance.. sure that would work.. it only killed what? half the dancers? great idea.

Which is why you use the sacrifices.

In 2006 alone, 36 million people died of malnutrition issues. over 80% of them where in the African continent. Add wars to that number, its closer to 73 million and 87%. Very sad when you consider that we currently have the production capacity to feed approximately 11 billion people.....

Which proves my point exactly- nobody would care about extra 10.000 .

So I am going to go with Mirikions original assessment: you're a Troll.

Please people, remind not to feed the Trolls.

Whats the easiest way to sum it? Stfu.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-20-13/1245:59>
This is INCLUDING recouping expenses.  If you can't justify the bottom line, then you don't do it.  It's only when the expense of allowing them to continue outweighs the expense of getting rid of or neutralizing them that corps will move in with the big guns.

Your line of reasoning about the various individuals with power (toxics, blood mages, etc.) is flawed.  The knowledge of the construction of nuclear devices is not new.  Nor is it secret.  Heck, I know how to make a device (not specifics, just what one needs to do to get it done, and the ability to get to the specifics after a LOOoooonnnnggg period of experimentation).  But you know what?  We don't have crazies running around nuking everything.  Why?

Because the people of the world DO NOT WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.  There are innumerable safeguards in place to prevent this.  Take a look at the whole business with Iran, and how much trouble they are going through to get their program off the ground.  No one wants potentially unstable people with a weapon of mass destruction.  So Iran is bumping into wall after wall in their path to get a nuke.  (Not justifying this or not, just saying that this is what is happening.)

Now apply that to the 6th world.  Every "easy" case you have made is well known to those in the know.  That means they know what they need to do in order to prevent it.  And THEY ARE DOING IT.  This is why no one has pulled off anything like you describe.  Because of the balancing act being performed by the major powers of the 6th world.  Remember, everything you can think of has already been thought of by someone else.  Probably by thousands of someone elses, if not hundreds of thousands.  Some of those will be of the mindset to actually do it, but many, many more will be of the mindset to STOP it.

If you think you have come up with a "fool proof" plan of action, you just haven't met the fools who failed at it.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DeathStrobe on <04-20-13/1449:09>
I got it. Get a powerful adept pornomancer to distract the great with enthralling performance and then crash in to the dragon with a zeppelin from Rigger 4. Bam, 900-ish p damage and dead dragon.

Or get that pornomancer to get another great to help you. Dragons are probably a lot like diamonds, they can only be cut by other dragons.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Nath on <04-20-13/1731:19>
Okaaaaayyyyyy....  lets looks at the "Dumber of the 2 dragons that street legends gave us stats for: Hestabey: with a logic of 19 and an inituition of 20 only makes her 3 times smarter then the SMARTEST human. EVER. So you know your plan? That great one I just linked up top? She sees through that. Last decade. Before lunch. And she thought it was pretty typical of a moronic Human... very unimaginative. And has thrown out at least 2 dozen counter options. Before settling on the half dozen or so that she randomly picks through to counter this silly, unimaginative plan. Before breakfast.
True... but only to a certain extent. A dragon may be smarter than any single human, but so can be a group of humans. The Pentagon has several hundred or thousand times more brainpower than the smartest human ever (it's just that it's not focused on winning wars, but also on things like spending cuts, election yearS and advancing their own careers). Dragons, on the other hand, rather work alone (though I guess they could use those Force 20+ spirits for the purpose of councelling).

So yes, Hetaby is rolling four times more dice than your average RPG players, and is thus likely to achieve four times more hits. But planning has never been stated to be an Opposed Test (and, it was, what the modifiers are for the attacker and defender).

More important, awareness of a risk never meant it could be avoided. During WW2, the German knew something like the Invasion of Normandy was a possibility. But they simply did not have enough resources to keep ready for an option they (wrongly) thought was unlikely to happen, while trying to slow down the Soviets in the east.

Sure, a great dragon is likely to expect someone will try to kill him in the future. That list starts with Verjigorm, followed by a handful of immortal elves, the other dragons, and the megacorporations, governements and private persons with competing interests, plus Alamos 20,000 and similar anti-Awakened groups. Mathematically, one great dragons cannot have enough agents to watch over all the other great dragons' own agents, let alone all its other enemies.
It's one thing to spy on one specific space program. It's another to spy on every space launch by every space power and their clients for over fifty years, and determine which ones want such weapon only to kill you and which ones have a broader strategic motivation, and among them those who may turned that weapon against you at a later point.

Detect Enemy is a good spell, but it doesn't say how prepared people are, and thus cannot discriminate closet dragon haters and fields ops in the final stages of preparation for an assassination attempt. That's one problem of being a public figure.

And even if it did allocate enough resources in the good place, there's no such thing as a perfect plan, offensive or defensive. Part of the answer for great dragons would be to prepare for certain type of attacks, instead of trying to detect actual threats early. It works even better from a gaming point of view since this can be solved mostly with lots of dice.

It's somewhat telling that Street Legends is basically an errata to the great dragons stats provided in the rulebook (Body 25, Agility 10, Reaction 11, Strength 40, Charisma 13, Intuition 13, Logic 13, Willpower 13, Edge 6, Conjuring 8, Sorcery 12, even when accounting the possibility given to the gamemaster to adjust attributes "up to three points in either direction"). Street Legends didn't give stats, it gave a statement.

And did your reading also tell you why Bio weapons are a serious 'No-no' for all but the mentally retarded? Bio-logical weapons have a nasty habit of mutating when in the wild. look at the common cold virus, or H1N1 or H1N7, or Anthrax... There are lots of viruses out there that only affected ONE species.. until they did what all good viruses do, and mutated.
Well, I didn't know Franklin Roosevelt was mentally retarded.

Biological warfare programs were dropped because it had the bad habit of infecting soldiers regardless of their uniform, along with civilians.

Research in biological weapons rather avoided fast-mutating virus like Influenza because of the risk they could mutate and become less potent during the weapon production process. I don't think anyone try to make a weapon of one the hundreds of different virus involved in "common cold" as none is even remotely deadly enough to start with. Anthrax is a bacteria, which mutate a lot slower than virus do.

YEEAAAA.... where to begin on this one.... first off, the most powerful militaries out there in the SR universe are actually in the corporation's hands. the FEW superpowers that remain still have sizable military might, but not enough to wave a middle finger at the combined force of even two or three megas... let alone 5 (SK, NEONET, MITs, Renraku, Wuxing all have dragon allies... and those are just the ones we know about. AZT has several dragons, but they are the only Corp I actually consider wacky enough to remotely try something)
Not even close to. In California, Ares Macrotechnology sent two regiments. There were two divisions of rogue Japanese troops that stayed with Saito. Aztechnology entire special force is a single battalion of 400 soldiers. It has fairly more line troops (the largest of the megacorporation), but those actually are the reserve units of the Aztlan national army. In a given battlefield, even a middle-of-pack national military could take on a big corporation.

In a war, the corporation would get the benefit of a much larger "strategic depth" as the Business Recognition Accords give them the opportunity to have troops, logistic lines, intelligence collection activities and command centers within the border of a large number of countries. However, a corporation would never take the full benefit of this since the Corporate Court specifically forbade megacorporations to go at war or try to overthrow governments, with the threat of an Omega Order. Corporation would be able to shrug off a military aggression, they would equally unable to cause significant damage to a country armed forces. The Corporate Court rules the world with money, not military might.

The truly sad thing is that versus a Country, the Corp Court wouldn't issue an Omega Order.
Actually, the Corporate Court wouldn't, for the reason given above, and couldn't legally issue an Omega Order against a country (or a private person for that matter). It's a sentence that can only be called upon member corporations (meaning here membership at large, A, AA and AAA, not the election of a candidate to the court that goes with AAA status).
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-20-13/1739:46>
I got it. Get a powerful adept pornomancer to distract the great with enthralling performance and then crash in to the dragon with a zeppelin from Rigger 4. Bam, 900-ish p damage and dead dragon.

Or get that pornomancer to get another great to help you. Dragons are probably a lot like diamonds, they can only be cut by other dragons.
Two problems, DeathStrobe. 1) You're forgetting the dragon's anchored spells and bound spirits, which would protect it from getting caught in this kind of thing. 2) A great dragon, without any gear, ware, or magic, has a dice pool to match any pornomancer in social skills, simply because they have a Charisma of 20+, as well as social skills. Add in the likelihood of them using some of the same tricks as the pornomancer, and that's like a con man running a shell game trying to trick the person who INVENTED the shell game.

Also, great dragons don't like eachother much, but they have some very specific rules in their culture, keeping them from fighting eachother. Part of the reason Lofwyr was able to mobilize everyone to take on Alamais is because he snubbed Lofwyr in his position as Loremaster. That's also the reason Hestaby got in trouble, because she did things that went against dragon culture.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Angelone on <04-20-13/1828:31>
@Nath, I'd like to point out an Omega Order was called upon Art Darthwanker. Other than that I agree with your assessment of corps vs nations.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mithlas on <04-20-13/1906:35>
Biological weapons have a nasty habit of mutating when in the wild. look at the common cold virus, or H1N1 or H1N7, or Anthrax... There are lots of viruses out there that only affected ONE species.. until they did what all good viruses do, and mutated.
I think that this is something easily misunderstood. My last 3 books have been nonfiction centering on biowarfare, and if you have any curiosity at all about the subject I'd recommend you read Richard Preston's Demon in the Freezer about smallpox.

There's also an explanation of various types of diseases in The Great Influenza which I'll summarize here: The more complex the organism, the more mechanisms it has to protect against mutation. Bacteria and multicellular organisms have DNA with overlapping "spell checking" on the genetic code. There are also DNA viruses such as smallpox or hepatitus that replicate through an RNA intermediary and are relatively stable (if deadly in the case of smallpox, especially the strain bioengineered by the Soviet Union and suspected now to be in the hands of North Korea). Below that are RNA viruses like the coronavirus and influenza, which mutate so quickly some virologists consider them a quasi-species instead of a specific species. Influenza in particular mutates so quickly and extensively that it is referred to as a "mutant swarm" instead of a simple infection, and when an infected cell bursts 99% of the millions of particles are so mutated that they cannot even survive.

Organizations that create bioweapons tend to either 1) go nihilistic and want everything to die, their own are expendable too, or 2) target a non-vaccinated populace while their own elite are vaccinated, relying on hope that quarantine and their own elite to keep the target population from infecting the primary populace of the creating group. That there are many very reliable means of stamping out an epidemic before it can really get started are discussed in Demon in the Freezer in regards to a smallpox breakout in Germany, but it still makes the point that bioweapons are an investment that is not infallible.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Bull on <04-20-13/1922:35>
OK kids.  Just a reminder:

Quote from: Terms of Service
1. Play nice
When making a post on this message board, conduct yourself properly. Proper conduct includes treating each other with respect. Confront an opinion, rather than a person; personal attacks of any kind are not tolerated. The posting of messages or materials that are obscene, violent, abusive, discriminatory or threatening in nature, or designed to harass or intimidate another person are not tolerated.

Reaver and rfv855, please refrain from posting in this thread any further since you cannot be polite to each other.  Also, this is a warning for each of you, with further possible action pending moderator review.

Everyone else, keep the Terms of Service in mind, play nice, and be respectful of each other.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Nath on <04-20-13/1939:40>
@Nath, I'd like to point out an Omega Order was called upon Art Darthwanker.
Sorry, I still can't get used to the idea :(

The Corporate Court is an arbitrage court. Per Corporate Shadowfiles, Corporate Download and Corporate Guide. It only deals with AA and AAA megacorporations (and the state dealing with them). It rules over corporations that adhere to it. These corporations accept its rulings in exchange of the extraterritorial benefits granted by the signatory nations of the Business Recognition Accords. Mandates, including the unlimited mandate that is an Omega Order, are issued against corporations.

Art Dankwalther is not a corporation. He's a citizen of a state (guess UCAS, but it's not actually stated anywhere). He never adhered to the Corporate Court charter. Nor did he get a lawyer, due process and all that. The Corporate Court obviously has the power to carry on an extra-judicial assassination, but they should never acknowledge it, let alone put a name on the process.

System Failure nonetheless mentions an Omega Order "on Dankwalther and his few remaining holdings." I would personally retcon that with the Corporate covering its ass with a ruling that would say something like "Despite the lack of documentation, it has been proven that M. Art Dankwalther played an effective operational role in the management of corporations A, B and C. The control exerted by M. Art Dankwalther over these corporations establish a de facto conglomerate, bound by corporation A registration with the Corporate Court. As such, assets of corporation B and C, and all assets used by M. Art Dankwalther to conduct business with these corporations, are legitimate targets under Omega Order issued against corporation A. The Corporate Court thus authorize a Thor shot to be fired against M. Art Dankwalther's cellphone and battery charger, used to communicate with corporation B head offices on March 12th, 2064, at 18:48 UT, and currently located in ..."

But, anyway, yes, you're right, as far as canon is concerned, an Omega Order has been issued against Art Dankwalther.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-20-13/2011:38>
Art Dankwalther was a man who declared war on an A corp, and won. Then he declared war on an AA corp, and won. Then he declared war on an AAA corp, and WAS IN THE PROCESS OF WINNING! Sounds like that has a lot to do with the megas to me.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: I_V_Saur on <04-20-13/2035:56>
Why do the Greats even bother with Metahumanity? Why did Dunkelzhan kill himself to buy us time? Why are Drakes valuable?

Because we have potential to surpass the Greats.

In the Sixth World, we've managed tech in decades good enough to garner interest from beings like Lowfyr. We breed fast enough, produce enough prodigies, and just plain think so far out of the ballpark that, as stated in Core, we can surprise the Greats. It takes work, it'll rarely work twice, rarely work once in the first place, and you likely won't survive. Still, it's doable, by Metahumans, because 1 - we are hard to predict, 2 - we're the craziest bastards on our planet, and 3 - we're too damn stubborn to give up.

Do the Greats know exactly where Technomancers came from? No.

Do they know how to feed Ghouls and such with synthetic materials? Nope, but Big D trusted us to pull that shit off, when even his race was clueless.

For the moment, we're fodder. For the moment, they can crush us. Eventually, Harlequin believes, (And D probably agreed) that we can beat the hell out of the goddamn Horrors, things that could make Hestaby cry with minimal effort.

Eventually, the Greats won't be exerting power over us as a matter of dominance, but survival. A way to avoid being slain for their bodies. Many will die anyways, their arrogance finishing them off.

Sixth or Seventh Edition will probably include a bit on how open season has been declared on all non-corp Dragons.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: RHat on <04-20-13/2050:29>
That would be too early for that sort of thing, Saur.  Also, nothing stops dragons from making use of tech themselves...
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: FastJack on <04-20-13/2052:34>
OK kids.  Just a reminder:

Quote from: Terms of Service
1. Play nice
When making a post on this message board, conduct yourself properly. Proper conduct includes treating each other with respect. Confront an opinion, rather than a person; personal attacks of any kind are not tolerated. The posting of messages or materials that are obscene, violent, abusive, discriminatory or threatening in nature, or designed to harass or intimidate another person are not tolerated.

Reaver and rfv855, please refrain from posting in this thread any further since you cannot be polite to each other.  Also, this is a warning for each of you, with further possible action pending moderator review.

Everyone else, keep the Terms of Service in mind, play nice, and be respectful of each other.

Agreed. We'll let this stand as an informal warning for now. I'll be watching out to make sure you two are playing nice in public. (If you want to continue your insults back and forth through PMs, that's fine with me.)
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <04-20-13/2154:45>
question, a few of the greats tend to be hyper aggressive. reading the fluff about the zeppelin in rigger 4, why couldn't they just take any zeppelin and turn it Hindenburg? Dragon shows up, sees a fun looking target, goes for the bait, and BOOM! and yes I know rigger 4 is a joke but it's a viable idea.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-20-13/2235:27>
Other than Alamais and his followers terrorizing GeMiTo the last few months, dragons don't actually do stuff like that. Not because they can't, but because they're also very intelligent creatures, and they understand that getting their long term goals is usually better served by no blowing up every random vehicle that crosses their path. Now, if someone in the zeppelin shot at a dragon, or was involved in the dragon telesma trade, then that's another story.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Black on <04-21-13/0003:22>
Other than Alamais and his followers terrorizing GeMiTo the last few months, dragons don't actually do stuff like that. Not because they can't, but because they're also very intelligent creatures, and they understand that getting their long term goals is usually better served by no blowing up every random vehicle that crosses their path. Now, if someone in the zeppelin shot at a dragon, or was involved in the dragon telesma trade, then that's another story.

I actually got the impression that GeMiTo had a purpose other than 'Im hungry'  It pulled away that think illusion that said 'Dragons are people too' and said 'hey look, we are the alpha predator and your just sheep'... with the desired outcome to create tension between dragons and humans and weaken other Dragon's ties to modern society, which in turn undercuts some of their strengths etc etc.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-21-13/0743:20>
No, GeMiTo was a deliberate smack in the face to Lofwyr from his brother, forcing the Loremaster into a conclusive battle on Alamais's terms. Unfortunately for Alamais, that ended about as well for him as it did for Nachtmeister.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Red Canti on <04-21-13/0756:11>
Now explain to me how any of those plans can be pulled off without the Greats finding out about it long before it can be excecuted.

Because, really, orbital weapon platforms can easily be built without anyone noticing. </sarcasm>
Meh. Orbital weapons are guns.
Take a gun apart and assemble it in space and it'll be a lot harder for anyone to detect, ridiculous mental stats or otherwise.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-21-13/0802:57>
Um, actually it is fairly hard for anyone to build anything in space without someone spotting it, even today. Even moreso in 2075, where there are multiple manned stations all through Earth orbit and other points. Just getting enough material up the well to build any kind of facility is going to get spotted, to say nothing of assembly.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Nath on <04-21-13/0812:16>
Art Dankwalther was a man who declared war on an A corp, and won. Then he declared war on an AA corp, and won. Then he declared war on an AAA corp, and WAS IN THE PROCESS OF WINNING! Sounds like that has a lot to do with the megas to me.
So what? A megacorporation earns and holds its rank by its ability to defend itself. That was the whole point of the Seretech and Shiawase decision. Inazo Aneki took over Keruba International. Lofwyr took over Saeder-Krupp. David Gavilan/Damien Knight caused a flash crash to take over a quarter of Ares Macrotechnology capital, and later used this corporation in a war against AAA Cross Applied Technologies only because its President/CEO Lucien Cross had a compromising file on his past activities. Richard Villiers himself destroyed Fuchi Industrial Electronics while divesting funds and assets to create a new corporation. If Novatech isn't able to fend off attack from a single man and take him out, it's Novatech who should go away. It always worked that way. Novatech request to the rest of the AAA for help to locate and assassinate Dankwalther is at best an humiliation.

The Corporate Court is a judicial institution whose authority is established by a charter corporations adhere to and an international treaty ratified by sovereign states. It exists because enforcing a contract against any corporation with their existing ability to defend themselves would be difficult for another corporation alone. The underlying idea is only a state or a megacorporation can take on a megacorporation, and it would require several of them to take on a powerful megacorporation without too much loss.

Art Dankwalther broke that assumption, as his market operations and clandestine actions represented an actual threat, without being attached to a state or a megacorporation. But so does quite a number of great dragon. And with regards to what have been said above about great dragons' pro-active defenses, you don't want great dragons to consider the fact that you have a standardized, code-named procedure for extra-judicial assassination of potentially threatening individuals with orbital weapons.

I actually got the impression that GeMiTo had a purpose other than 'Im hungry'  It pulled away that think illusion that said 'Dragons are people too' and said 'hey look, we are the alpha predator and your just sheep'... with the desired outcome to create tension between dragons and humans and weaken other Dragon's ties to modern society, which in turn undercuts some of their strengths etc etc.
The problem is, I think, that dragons' political agenda have been well established throughout the six previous decades. Aden attacked Tehran because of the ayatollah declared hostility against awakened creatures. Hualpa overthrew the Brazilian government to enforce ecological policies. Dunkelzahn run for UCAS presidency without eating a single voter. Ghostwalker attacked Aztechnology and Aztlan assets in Denver before establishing a new government for the city. Sirrurg did kill over 10,000 civilians in Cali, but spearheaded at the same time an offensive that allowed Amazonian regular forces to seize the city a few days later. Hestaby destroyed S-K building in Dubaļ after one of her lieutenant was assassinated using a rifle manufactured by a company headquartered in the same country that S-K is headquartered in.

Alamais pretending to be a savage predator would just not work. Everybody would search for a political agenda, be it estate investment in nothern Italy or trying to make all dragons look like savages.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Sacredsouless on <04-21-13/0818:39>
Other than Alamais and his followers terrorizing GeMiTo the last few months, dragons don't actually do stuff like that. Not because they can't, but because they're also very intelligent creatures, and they understand that getting their long term goals is usually better served by no blowing up every random vehicle that crosses their path. Now, if someone in the zeppelin shot at a dragon, or was involved in the dragon telesma trade, then that's another story.

I actually got the impression that GeMiTo had a purpose other than 'Im hungry'  It pulled away that think illusion that said 'Dragons are people too' and said 'hey look, we are the alpha predator and your just sheep'... with the desired outcome to create tension between dragons and humans and weaken other Dragon's ties to modern society, which in turn undercuts some of their strengths etc etc.
No, GeMiTo was a deliberate smack in the face to Lofwyr from his brother, forcing the Loremaster into a conclusive battle on Alamais's terms. Unfortunately for Alamais, that ended about as well for him as it did for Nachtmeister.

My understanding was that it was both. Alamais truly believed in dragon superiority and decided to use that belief to garner support and start acting on that belief. I don't doubt that he knew it would provoke Lofwyr, and I agree with Mirikon that he was planning on that. Just the whole situation didn't really turn out that well for Alamais.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Red Canti on <04-21-13/0830:42>
Um, actually it is fairly hard for anyone to build anything in space without someone spotting it, even today. Even moreso in 2075, where there are multiple manned stations all through Earth orbit and other points. Just getting enough material up the well to build any kind of facility is going to get spotted, to say nothing of assembly.
Hard. Not impossible.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Nath on <04-21-13/0950:23>
Um, actually it is fairly hard for anyone to build anything in space without someone spotting it, even today.
It's easy to know when people are launching "something", but not what it is. The NASA is nice enough to specify when the customer is the NRO or NSA to guess about the satellite role, but the launch registered as "Air Force" or "Department of Defense" can be anything. Especially when it involves multiple-stage launch or hosted payload.

Then, once the satellite is in orbit, the only two countries who acknowledged a capacity to track orbital objects are the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAVSPASUR) and France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graves_%28system%29) (the rumormill says the first thing the French did when their system was up and running was to ask the US to remove French reconnaissance sats from the public catalogue, in exchange for them removing US sats from their own listing). And it still doesn't say what the payload is.

There's a real worry that China may or already did "smuggle" explosives as hosted payload in one or several satellites (or even its orbital station) as a way to even out capacities with the US in case of war (considering losing satcom, GPS and space reconnaissance would be more detrimental to the US order of battle than it would be to the Chinese). But there's no way to be sure.

Kinetic weapons (aka "Thor shot") would be far harder to smuggle into orbit, because of their very specific design. The weight of each rod (several tons) also makes pretty unlikely it could be included as hosted payload onto another satellite. Directed energy weapons, on the other hand, could probably be included in a solar power satellite and disguised as an extra microwave link.

Anyway, it's pretty likely that most of SR organizations with the resources to launch and maintain orbital weapons in orbit already did it, and obviously the dragons did nothing to prevent them from getting operational (unless each weapon system actually has 25 separate backdoors as the result of 25 separate runs that hit each project during the development stage without getting noticed).
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: DamienHollow on <04-21-13/1447:05>
Two words... Colony Drop. It doesn't need to be fancy. Just drop a properly built satellite or station on them.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-21-13/1625:12>
Two words... Colony Drop. It doesn't need to be fancy. Just drop a properly built satellite or station on them.
Perianwyr (not a Great) used a Levitate spell to take himself and the entire Aztlan delegation from the treaty signing in Denver hundreds of miles, almost instantly. And you think a great dragon couldn't avoid a satellite dropping on them in the 5 minutes or so it takes to re-enter the atmosphere?

Nath, I agree that energy weapons, if they could be made plausible, to say nothing of feasible, would indeed be easier to smuggle up. However, there's a difference between what is on public listings, and what people actually know. Remember, dragons aren't islands unto themselves. Even Sirrurg had his intelligence networks. And so do the Corporate Court, who does control everything that goes up the well. The chances of orbital weapons making it into orbit without being discovered are vanishingly slim. Especially since the Court is VERY touchy about the release of orbital weapons, as stated earlier.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: The_Gun_Nut on <04-21-13/1713:10>
May we drop this thread now?  Even I am getting tired of it.  The long and the short of it, as has been discussed, revealed, examined, and judged, is that it is most certainly possible to kill any dragon.  Even one of the greats.  It is, however, a HUGE undertaking, and while very possible, no one wants to start a war with (the equivalent of) a limited or possibly strategic nuclear exchange as this is Bad For Business TM.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Angelone on <04-21-13/2037:19>
Have the dragon choke on barrier foam.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Ghoulfodder on <04-22-13/1320:11>
Is killing really necessary?

Has anyone just tried walloping one of them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and saying "BAD" to see if they'll behave?
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: CanRay on <04-22-13/1356:14>
Is killing really necessary?

Has anyone just tried walloping one of them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and saying "BAD" to see if they'll behave?
Yes, when Lofwyr bought Saeder-Krupp.

The result was him responding, "Needs more ketchup rather than Sour Kraut."
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Nath on <04-22-13/1457:14>
This wasn't how it happened. First, it wasn't when Lofwyr bought Saeder-Krupp. It was several years after Lofwyr bought Saeder-Krupp, when he finally decided his ownership to be known.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Angelone on <04-22-13/2328:05>
Is killing really necessary?

Has anyone just tried walloping one of them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and saying "BAD" to see if they'll behave?

Germany whapped Firewing on the nose and she has been behaving AFAIK, on the other hand you have Sirrug and the stick lodged up his rear end. And yes, yes killing is necessary hopefully in a funny way such as making them choke to death on packing peanuts or barrier foam.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Red Canti on <04-23-13/0040:02>
Is killing really necessary?
No.
But it's fun. :)
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: CanRay on <04-23-13/0045:55>
Is killing really necessary?
No.
But it's fun. :)
Maxim 35:  "That which does not kill you has made a tactical error."
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <04-23-13/0438:58>
Besides, Maxim 27:  Don't be afraid to be the first to resort to violence.
Title: Re: How long would any of a great dragons actually last vs modern day military?
Post by: Inconnu on <04-25-13/1652:37>
Self-made addendum to Maxim 27:Unless it's a dragon, outnumbers you 20 to one, or you don't have your choice of weapon and armor and they have Gauss Rifles.