NEWS

Can you astral project through water?

  • 16 Replies
  • 6481 Views

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2993
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« on: <02-25-18/1041:25> »
I know you can't astral project through natural, unworked earth.  But, I don't know if it's the same with water.  It is full of bacterial life, so it'd be believable for it to be solid even if the "part of the Earth's astral form" didn't apply.  I ask because I couldn't help be wonder if that means somebody has astrally projected into the Mariana's Trench.  Though I suppose since nothing is transparent (well, no non-gasses) on the astral, you couldn't see through the water, could you?  That'd make it even more terrifying.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #1 on: <02-25-18/1057:27> »
In prior editions you couldn't project through living auras.  Things like ivy coverings on walls were considered a form of astral security!  This is also the basis of the root of the "no projecting through the earth" rule- the Gaiasphere was considered for game mechanics puproses to be a living entity and therefore blocking astral travel.

As of 5th edition they metaphysics have changed.  Not only can you project through living auras, security personnel often get training to recognize what it feels like when someone does this and can get a bonus to detect it.
OTOH the prohibition against going through the earth still applies.  (old sourcebooks where ivy or bacteria-laced wallpaper once blocked astral travel no longer do so if used in modern edition, but old sources where astral security involved putting the site underground and forcing astral intruders to use the same tunnel(s) as mundanes is still a valid tactic)  I can't find any "fluff" rationale in 5th ed as to why you can project through the living but not the earth as "the Gaiasphere is alive" argument doesn't fly anymore.  It just is what it is now: the rule bluntly says you can't go through the earth without saying why.

Since the blunt statement doesn't preclude water and water never stopped it in prior editions, I don't see why water should stop it now.

As for something like projecting to the marianas trench:  Since the "Gaiasphere is alive!" premise is no longer valid for 5th ed- why not call someplace so removed from the bustle of (sea)life like that a mana void?  Of of course you could make it the domain of critters of your design/pleasing.  Or heck maybe there's just nothing down there worth looking at, so no mage ever makes a return visit.
« Last Edit: <02-25-18/1100:35> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2993
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« Reply #2 on: <02-25-18/1102:07> »
Hmm, thanks for explaining your logic there.  I think you're right.  If it weren't possible in 5th edition, it'd have at least mentioned as impossible at some point in a previous edition.

That could be the beginning of a good Shadowrun horror story.  A group of mages who's job it is to astral project into the Mariana Trench and record their findings, finding some terrifying, unfathomable stuff down there or just going insane for some unknown reason...
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #3 on: <02-25-18/1116:19> »
Well if anyplace on earth hosts a rift to the metaplane of R'lyeh, I suppose a deep ocean trench would be the place :)
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Rosa

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 395
« Reply #4 on: <02-25-18/1144:06> »
Not entirely correct about Astral projection in previous editions.

Astral forms would slow you down but you could in fact pass through them,  which would also give them a chance to notice it. ( SR4 20TH page 192-93 ).

About the living earth,  it is correct that the core book simply states that it blocks astral forms, however street magic expands upon this and states that pressing through the living earth is similar to pressing through an astral barrier and gives rules for how it works,  as well as rules for how to avoid getting lost which is fairly easy. ( Street Magic page 114-115. )

This was also more or less how it was in 3rd edition as far as I remember.

You will find the rules for Astral perception and projection under water in Run and Gun on page 158.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #5 on: <02-25-18/1207:50> »
In prior editions you couldn't project through living auras.  Things like ivy coverings on walls were considered a form of astral security!  This is also the basis of the root of the "no projecting through the earth" rule- the Gaiasphere was considered for game mechanics puproses to be a living entity and therefore blocking astral travel.

As of 5th edition they metaphysics have changed.  Not only can you project through living auras, security personnel often get training to recognize what it feels like when someone does this and can get a bonus to detect it.
OTOH the prohibition against going through the earth still applies.  (old sourcebooks where ivy or bacteria-laced wallpaper once blocked astral travel no longer do so if used in modern edition, but old sources where astral security involved putting the site underground and forcing astral intruders to use the same tunnel(s) as mundanes is still a valid tactic)  I can't find any "fluff" rationale in 5th ed as to why you can project through the living but not the earth as "the Gaiasphere is alive" argument doesn't fly anymore.  It just is what it is now: the rule bluntly says you can't go through the earth without saying why.

Since the blunt statement doesn't preclude water and water never stopped it in prior editions, I don't see why water should stop it now.

As for something like projecting to the marianas trench:  Since the "Gaiasphere is alive!" premise is no longer valid for 5th ed- why not call someplace so removed from the bustle of (sea)life like that a mana void?  Of of course you could make it the domain of critters of your design/pleasing.  Or heck maybe there's just nothing down there worth looking at, so no mage ever makes a return visit.

Where is that discussed? Core somewhere I assume?
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #6 on: <02-25-18/1311:31> »
Yeah, pgs 313-314.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

SpellBinder

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 348
« Reply #7 on: <02-25-18/1357:27> »
Too bad Street Magic removed a notation that was in SR3's Magic In The Shadows regarding projection through the Earth.  Earth elementals/spirits could add their Force as a DP bonus to how quickly you could move through the Earth, and guide you without the risk of getting lost.  IIRC being a drake of one of the Great Dragons (Lung, I believe) would let you freely astrally project through the Earth as if it wasn't there.

As for the suggestion of the Marianas Trench, you really wanna tread where Lung, Ryumyo, and/or the Sea Dragon are likely to claim as their domain?  Yeah, yeah, I know the Sea Dragon's supposed to primarily lair near Wales, but when she claims the seas as her domain you seriously think she's gonna limit her self to just the Atlantic?  And the trench isn't just a deep pit at the floor of the Pacific but a fault between the Philippine & Pacific plates, part of the Ring Of Fire that Ryumyo & Lung are vying for control of.

Jack_Spade

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6516
« Reply #8 on: <02-25-18/1433:16> »
To provide the rules for 5e: Run&Gun of all places, p.158, explains the caveats of under water projection:

within 10m of the surface -2 penalty to astral perception, -4 in warm waters, even especially clear water still sports a -1
but navigating only ever has a -2 penalty
Astral projection is not stopped by micro-organisms, isn't slowed by water, but might be disorienting (Assensing test (3) to avoid losing sense of direction)
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Mirikon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 8986
  • "Everybody lies." --House
« Reply #9 on: <02-25-18/1518:21> »
I thought the reason ivy or other such things were considered astral security wasn't because projecting through them was impossible, but it was more difficult, and had the chance of being noticed, even by mundanes. Basically, it was the 'chill down your back' like you just stepped through a ghost.
Greataxe - Apply directly to source of problem, repeat as needed.

My Characters

firebug

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2993
  • Scraping the bottom of the Resonance Barrel
« Reply #10 on: <02-25-18/1907:07> »
As for the suggestion of the Marianas Trench, you really wanna tread where Lung, Ryumyo, and/or the Sea Dragon are likely to claim as their domain?  Yeah, yeah, I know the Sea Dragon's supposed to primarily lair near Wales, but when she claims the seas as her domain you seriously think she's gonna limit her self to just the Atlantic?  And the trench isn't just a deep pit at the floor of the Pacific but a fault between the Philippine & Pacific plates, part of the Ring Of Fire that Ryumyo & Lung are vying for control of.

This is Shadowrun, the fact that you've shown how many things say "DO NOT DO THIS" means people want to do it more than anything.  It'd be even more reason for the attempt to go poorly, due to how black-ops they'd have to be, unable to report to their superiors in the field.  So, two Awakened go in...  They are never heard from again.  Someone intercepts their desperate attempt to send a message out and only gets a static-filled, garbled message that seems to be the ramblings of an insane person, from what little can be understood.  There's no sign of their submarine.  Or maybe something a little more "NOC +10".

To provide the rules for 5e: Run&Gun of all places, p.158, explains the caveats of under water projection:

within 10m of the surface -2 penalty to astral perception, -4 in warm waters, even especially clear water still sports a -1
but navigating only ever has a -2 penalty
Astral projection is not stopped by micro-organisms, isn't slowed by water, but might be disorienting (Assensing test (3) to avoid losing sense of direction)

Thanks for the exact numbers on it!  I imagine deep in the ocean would be very diifficult to navigate through on the astral unless you're just following some fish around.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

Senko

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2485
« Reply #11 on: <03-01-18/0405:42> »
Too bad Street Magic removed a notation that was in SR3's Magic In The Shadows regarding projection through the Earth.  Earth elementals/spirits could add their Force as a DP bonus to how quickly you could move through the Earth, and guide you without the risk of getting lost.  IIRC being a drake of one of the Great Dragons (Lung, I believe) would let you freely astrally project through the Earth as if it wasn't there.

As for the suggestion of the Marianas Trench, you really wanna tread where Lung, Ryumyo, and/or the Sea Dragon are likely to claim as their domain?  Yeah, yeah, I know the Sea Dragon's supposed to primarily lair near Wales, but when she claims the seas as her domain you seriously think she's gonna limit her self to just the Atlantic?  And the trench isn't just a deep pit at the floor of the Pacific but a fault between the Philippine & Pacific plates, part of the Ring Of Fire that Ryumyo & Lung are vying for control of.

Speaking personally I'd say there was reasonable life even down in the depths of the Marianas trench and it would be no more a void than anywhere else on the earth. Now whether you actually want to meet that life is another matter, personally I'm thinking about a recent experience of mine in Subnautica and ran into one of the reaper leviathans, it tore my sub to pieces and then did the same to me.

farothel

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3859
« Reply #12 on: <03-13-18/0305:24> »
To provide the rules for 5e: Run&Gun of all places, p.158, explains the caveats of under water projection:

within 10m of the surface -2 penalty to astral perception, -4 in warm waters, even especially clear water still sports a -1
but navigating only ever has a -2 penalty
Astral projection is not stopped by micro-organisms, isn't slowed by water, but might be disorienting (Assensing test (3) to avoid losing sense of direction)

I wonder why warm water is -4, while it's often the colder water that has the most nutrients (plankton and the like) in it to clutter it up.  If I were GM and the players wanted to do something like that, I'd probably rule that it looked like a fog to them (a bit like when you see a lot of plankton with your real eyes actually).

As to using plants as astral barriers, there used to be somewhere in 4th a species of awakened ivy that did just that, although I don't really remember where it was or what it was called.  And then there was the glomoss stick, which was some sort of awakened moss that glowed when an astral form passed through (or near).  It wouldn't block it, but it would glow and that was then tied to a light sensor that gave an alarm.  So put your facility underground, place these wands in the access shafts and cover them with that awakened ivy on top and you have a pretty secure facility (for the astral at least).
"Magic can turn a frog into a prince. Science can turn a frog into a Ph.D. and you still have the frog you started with." Terry Pratchett
"I will not yield to evil, unless she's cute"

mbisber

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 82
« Reply #13 on: <07-06-18/2249:51> »
Quote
Water does not slow an astral form, but the emptiness and lack of gravitational force make traveling astrally through water quite dangerous. R&G p.158.
A lack of gravitational force under water? :)

But, getting lost could be quite dangerous, @ 1670 m. per second.

Beta

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1946
  • SR1 player, SR5 GM@FtF & player@PbP
« Reply #14 on: <07-07-18/1233:05> »
Lack of gravitational force in the astral.  So if you get turned around, and the view is murky due to all the tiny life forms, how do you figure which which way is up?