[Shinobi Killfist]

Dumb question. If magic fingers is an invisible force what kind of defense test to avoid being punched?  Standard defense test, are there penalties?  If there is a rule I'm missing it, if not what would you suggest? 

Would you allow martial arts maneuvers with magic fingers if it made some sense like sweep maybe or throw, maybe disarm?

Would you allow a specialization in using a skill with magic fingers kind of like a remote operation specialization in gunnery?

[SunRunner]

In previous editions it was basically super reach to the point the Physical adepts even had a power that mimicked it. Its standard defense tests for what ever they are doing with the magic fingers. Just remember the stats are set by the force of the spell and its 6 - force to notice the spell. Generally any magic fingers cast at combat viable force are pretty noticeable. Its also not very subject to low force shenanigans, you could use reagents to up the limit when you cast the spell so you have decent strength and agility to work with but then your still stuck with a limit of Force for whatever action your trying to do with it so having an agility and strength of 10 is pretty cool but mostly useless when your limit for all your tests is 2. Also remember that anything they are manipulating is not invisible so if the mage wants to TK stab some one with a sword they will still clearly see the sword.

Martial maneuvers are mostly allowable in my opinion, but it would be a case by case basis as only maneuvers that are only using your hands & arms are gonna work. Alot of martial maneuvers involve using your entire body to some extent so it would be a judgement call on the GMs part, also factor in that magic fingers has problems with fine manipulation so if a maneuver requires alot of precision it should not be allowed or heavily penalized. I would also say that it opens the door for some of the ranged penalties to start showing up, if your using magic fingers to shadow box some guard from 20 meters away and someone has popped a smoke grenade and you vision is obscured then I think that factors in, I would also probably consider penalties for odd angels and such that might arise.

I would totally allow a mage to specialize in magic fingers applications for any skill it makes sense for. Generally speaking the close combat group, the technical group but that will probably be a wash as it will just off set the penalties for trying to type / use tools to do stuff with magic fingers.

[Officerzan]

Editted to simplify my answer.

"Magic Fingers creates a psychokinetic effect as a sort of invisible hand that can hold or manipulate items.
...
The magic fingers can manipulate objects within your line of sight, but only objects within a meter or so of one another at any given moment (the “hands” can’t be farther away from each other than your arm span)."

No, it cannot be used to directly damage someone like it was an "unarmed" attack. I also recommend using the -2 to all dicepool from 4e when the task involves fine motor control.

Pick up some gauntlets? Go for it i'd say. You are manipulating the gauntlets to do your melee (with penalty). Invisible judo chops? Prepare to be phonebooked.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It says you can fight as if they were your reals hands. I think you are over emphasizing those couple words. It's a telekinetic effect with hits equal to strength and agility. And you can use your skills with it. I don't buy you can stab with a knife you pick up but can't punch with the force.

To the original point. So noticing spellcasting rules overrides other descriptiors of it being invisible? I assume baring the actual invisibility spells as that would just be silly.

[Officerzan]

Yes...you can fight...by manipulating a weapon...
It also says that you can pick locks. I wouldn't allow someone to do that without manipulating tools that are needed for it. The spell specifically says that you are using the force to manipulate/hold items/objects.

If you as a GM wanted to allow it, then give the attacker a +2 modifier for superior position and treat it as normal melee. Or, follow the rules for physical manipulation spells and have the target resist the attack with Body+Strength.

Edit to add:
It's the same reason you can't use Fling to throw one enemy at another. It's not over emphasis. It's what the spell as written explicitly states you are affecting with the spell.

Fluff reason? Hmmm, spell wasn't designes to interact directly with living auras. Balance reason? Invisible to all senses, untargettable, ninja who's controller is using an optical telescope a few football fields away. Only F-2 drain.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yes...you can fight...by manipulating a weapon...
It also says that you can pick locks. I wouldn't allow someone to do that without manipulating tools that are needed for it. The spell specifically says that you are using the force to manipulate/hold items/objects.

If you as a GM wanted to allow it, then give the attacker a +2 modifier for superior position and treat it as normal melee. Or, follow the rules for physical manipulation spells and have the target resist the attack with Body+Strength.

Edit to add:
It's the same reason you can't use Fling to throw one enemy at another. It's not over emphasis. It's what the spell as written explicitly states you are affecting with the spell.

Fluff reason? Hmmm, spell wasn't designes to interact directly with living auras. Balance reason? Invisible to all senses, untargettable, ninja who's controller is using an optical telescope a few football fields away. Only F-2 drain.

It also says you can perform any action as if using your hands. I think what you are bringing up is a general descriptor. If asked what do hands do I'd be likely say they hold and manipulate items. I think the rule is telekinetic hands that can do anything hands can do with a inherent limit of the force and a strength/agility equal to hits. I think the object and item wording is not limiting it to objects but just a way off saying hey telekinetic hands. I think it would explicitly say this spell can only effect objects as opposed to wrapping it into a general description of what hands do. But, I can see what you are saying I just don't agree with that interpretation.

[Officerzan]

It does explicitly say you use it to manipulate/hold items. It's the very first line of the spell. You CAN use the magic "hands" just as you could real ones, in regards to the manipulating items. It's pointless getting into it further as it's turning into a, "It says that they are ground vehicles, but it doesn't say that I CAN'T drive my car underwater!" type discussion. You asked for opinions, i gave mine.

I do want to add however, this is not a new debate and has been debated for over...at least 11 years which can be seen with a quick Google search for magic fingers and unarmed combat. Before coming to whatever conclusion. You like i recommend looking at some. The couple Dumpshock ones are the most populated post wise. (http://forums.dumpshock.com/lofiversion/index.php/t34398.html is mostly civil before devolving into a crazy number crunch as per Dumpshock tradition lol)