Author Topic: Former SINners?  (Read 594 times)

Ar984

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Former SINners?
« on: (16:17:19/07-24-17) »
What happens to a corporate SINner who gets fired or retired or transferred? Do they keep the same level of SIN (corp, corp limited, national?) if not, what SIN would he have if any?

Sphinx

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #1 on: (17:52:20/07-24-17) »
A megacorp employee who loses his position doesn't automatically lose his corporate citizenship. There's probably a grace period to find another opening further down the corporate ladder, even if it's ALL the way down (file clerk, groundskeeper, parking attendant, custodian, etc.).

A person who is expelled from a megacorp, or permitted to resign, or who works for a corp that loses its extraterritorial status, would revert to a national SIN, either for the country they (or their parents) were born in, or the country they currently reside in.

Senko

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #2 on: (05:07:55/07-25-17) »
I always thought they kept them since in shadowrun you aren't so much working for Sony as you are a SONY CITIZEN! Maybe your in management, IT, an 8 year old kid in school or a ditch digger it doesn't matter (though there wouldn't be many in that last category) you are a Sony citizen entitled to all the rights, privledges and requirements thereof. Especially since most corp citizens aren't outsiders who got rewarded with citzenship but people who were born, educated and spent every waking moment surrounded by their corps products. They were born in a Sony hospital, attended Sony schools, hung out at Sony cinema's bought Sony products from Sony stores and were exposed 24/7 to Sony provided information about how they're the best corporation and all the others are baby eating, sibling sacrificing monsters who abuse those they should protect, unlike Sony naturally. That's a huge investment in time, capital and resources to ensure your citizens are your citizens. So if you get fired or transferred it doesn't matter your still a citizen of your corp the only way you'd lose that would be something out of the normal such as selling corporate secrets, endangering higher ups or being a convenient scapegoat to take the blame for a major failure (and in Japan they still take care of you if your in the last category).

So lets say I am a mage with Sony citzenship.

Fired: Still a citizen just need to find another job.
Transferred to another division/job: Still a Sony citzen and probably still working for them.
Transferred to another commpany: Usually not an entirely voluntary process and probably contains Sony rescue attempts and a citizenship for the new corp for my skills (I'd have to have something valuable or they wouldn't bother).
Exiled: Loss of citzenship and become a sinless shadowrunner (with if it was a scapegoating Sony recommended contacts as a reward for my loyalty).
Retired: Still a Sony citizen.

Sphinx

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #3 on: (11:42:48/07-25-17) »
So let's say I am a mage with Sony citizenship:
Fired: Still a citizen just need to find another job.
Transferred to another division/job: Still a Sony citizen and probably still working for them.
Transferred to another company: Usually not an entirely voluntary process and probably contains Sony rescue attempts and a citizenship for the new corp for my skills (I'd have to have something valuable or they wouldn't bother).
Exiled: Loss of citizenship and become a sinless shadowrunner (with if it was a scapegoating Sony recommended contacts as a reward for my loyalty).
Retired: Still a Sony citizen.

Mostly I agree, except "exiled" ... losing corp citizenship doesn't make you SINless. You'd end up with a criminal SIN (if you were terminated for breaking corp law, like embezzling) or reverting to a national SIN, or both. Your SIN history stays in the global SIN registry. If Lone Star runs your DNA, fingerprints, voiceprint, facial recognition, etc., they'll still get a match.

Also, megacorps only fight to hold onto (or extract) potentially valuable employees. If you're undesirable in some way (e.g., lazy, difficult, chronically ill, or the wrong metatype), like as not they'll let you go if you want. Resigning your corp citizenship is like emigrating to another country. If you get hired by another mega, you get another corporate SIN. If you go to work for a smaller corp, or enlist in a military, or become self-employed, or whatever, then you end up with a national SIN. Probably whatever nation you're living in at the time, or whatever nation you were born in (if you weren't born in a megacorp hospital), or where your parents were born.

Remember, only extraterritorial megacorps (AAA and AA level) have corporate citizenship. There are tens of thousands of smaller companies, from A-level multinationals down to mom-and-pop stores and garage startups, where employees only have their old-fashioned national SIN. And the Corporate Court's "Megacorporate Revision" is still in progress, so any double-A could suddenly be downgraded to single-A, losing its precious extraterritoriality, and all of its corp citizens revert to national citizens instead.
« Last Edit: (11:45:28/07-25-17) by Sphinx »

Senko

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #4 on: (05:10:12/07-26-17) »
Hmm the fluff of a corporation employee taking the fall for a boss and getting set up with a lucrative fixer and introductions yo the shadowrun I my world of Japan has mislead me then.

Sure a Corp can be downgraded/upgraded bur unless something major happens I can't see the triple A's making unnecessary enemies by downgrading the larger ones. I used Sony because I remember reading somewhere it was as big as the AAA ones but was AA because it had no seat on the corporate court and was trying to get it

Kiirnodel

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #5 on: (05:43:02/07-26-17) »
Depending on the reason, a Corp might also choose to "burn" a former employee quietly. It would be simple matter for them to go through and delete all public records of a citizen and just claim that they never existed. That way they cut all ties and they wash their hands of them, and officially things can't get tied back to them.

That would result in no SIN at all, not even a Criminal one (unless you later get caught doing something else).

It would be a pretty good reason to take the "Records on File" negative quality too.

Senko

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #6 on: (06:47:46/07-26-17) »
So a degree of sentencing then fine, firing, conviction (criminal/national SIN depending on crime) and exile (removal of all records).

Sendaz

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #7 on: (09:18:22/07-26-17) »
Depending on the reason, a Corp might also choose to "burn" a former employee quietly. It would be simple matter for them to go through and delete all public records of a citizen and just claim that they never existed. That way they cut all ties and they wash their hands of them, and officially things can't get tied back to them.

That would result in no SIN at all, not even a Criminal one (unless you later get caught doing something else).

It would be a pretty good reason to take the "Records on File" negative quality too.
Which was pretty much the basis for Burn Notice, Michael has zero ID in most systems so it's not like he can just go back to normal jobs and such.
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Sphinx

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #8 on: (10:11:41/07-26-17) »
Depending on the reason, a Corp might also choose to "burn" a former employee quietly. It would be simple matter for them to go through and delete all public records of a citizen and just claim that they never existed. That way they cut all ties and they wash their hands of them, and officially things can't get tied back to them. That would result in no SIN at all, not even a Criminal one (unless you later get caught doing something else).

Good point. It's probably not a checkbox on the standard outprocessing form, but a megacorp certainly could erase someone whose official existence became suddenly inconvenient. Someone from the "euphemism for industrial espionage" department, for example. Makes a good shadowrunner origin story.

Be funny if it WERE a common enough practice to have actual paperwork. "Let's see ... this will be the standard 'rogue operative' exit package, then? Initial here, sign here. Your designated 'former colleague with a vendetta' will be notified within 24 hours."

Sascha Morlok

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #9 on: (18:03:14/07-26-17) »
Well, extraterritoriality isn't the same as to be a separate nation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dU4IMex4FU

So, it is quite possible that - in addition to your Corp SIN - you will gain a national SIN in addition, especially if one of your parents has one. In the AGS it is handled that way, that your national citizenship is "frozen" when you join a corp, that offers you their citizenship (I wouldn't say every employee gets one). Now you are a corp citizen but you also can't participate in national elections (as you don't have a national citizenship), unless maybe you joined one of the 15 (now 12 after the fall of NeoNET and the buying spree of Spinrad) NEEC-member corporations.

Possible, other countries have similar regulations. 6th World Almanac says in Lille, France there are many people with dual-citizenship.
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Senko

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #10 on: (23:39:11/07-26-17) »
Depending on the reason, a Corp might also choose to "burn" a former employee quietly. It would be simple matter for them to go through and delete all public records of a citizen and just claim that they never existed. That way they cut all ties and they wash their hands of them, and officially things can't get tied back to them. That would result in no SIN at all, not even a Criminal one (unless you later get caught doing something else).

Good point. It's probably not a checkbox on the standard outprocessing form, but a megacorp certainly could erase someone whose official existence became suddenly inconvenient. Someone from the "euphemism for industrial espionage" department, for example. Makes a good shadowrunner origin story.

Be funny if it WERE a common enough practice to have actual paperwork. "Let's see ... this will be the standard 'rogue operative' exit package, then? Initial here, sign here. Your designated 'former colleague with a vendetta' will be notified within 24 hours."

You know it wouldn't surprise me if they did complete with appropriate euphemisms. Probably all sorts of established methods for these and other things...

1) "Take them to the debriefing room" = take them to an interrogation room with 2 way mirror, hard-wired and protected surveillance cameras, etc.
2) " Take them to the information facilitation overflow room" = take them to an interrogation room with no mirror, lots of slippery trip hazards and surveillance cameras with a persistent "intermittent" glitch.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #11 on: (22:31:22/08-02-17) »
In most of the canon stories, if you get fired from a corporation, you not only lose your corporate citizenship, you get escorted to the gates (as it were) where you find your personal items (i.e. those not paid for by the corp) waiting for you in whatever boxes they had available to dump them into.  And Morlok, extraterritoriality in SR essentially does mean that it's a different country - if the corporation wants it that way.  Ares, for example, allows all its corporate citizens in the UCAS (and maybe CAS - I'm not quite up-to-speed on my CAS information) to possess dual citizenship with the UCAS, in keeping with their whole 'Ares = UCAS' schtick.  The three Japanacorps (Renraku, MCT, Shiawase) very likely automatically give their people in Japan automatic Japanese dual citizenship, for the same reason.

But in general, how you leave a corporation is dependent on, well, why you're leaving the corporation.  You might acquire a national SIN ... but I wouldn't bet on it.  One of my favorite short fiction pieces in 5E was of the 'runner walking past the soup line, with the ex-corp armorer who'd specialized in custom grips, sitting on the curb bitching about how he'd gotten canned just before his retirement benefits.  Don't know if he had a national SIN afterwards, but considering he was in Puyallup, I somehow doubt it ...
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rednblack

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #12 on: (15:22:29/08-03-17) »
@Wyrm, good reply. A question, do you think employee of Mitsuhama with full corporate SIN residing in Seattle would also have dual citizenship? Would they, for example, be able to vote in mayoral elections, etc?
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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #13 on: (22:51:41/08-03-17) »
One of my favorite short fiction pieces in 5E was of the 'runner walking past the soup line, with the ex-corp armorer who'd specialized in custom grips, sitting on the curb bitching about how he'd gotten canned just before his retirement benefits.  Don't know if he had a national SIN afterwards, but considering he was in Puyallup, I somehow doubt it ...
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Sphinx

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Re: Former SINners?
« Reply #14 on: (23:07:01/08-03-17) »
What's that from?

"The Battle Fought" by Jason Hardy (p.16).