Author Topic: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.  (Read 608 times)

rednblack

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #15 on: (15:41:15/07-31-17) »
Oh, I love me some Canadian whisky.  I tend to like whiskey in general, but Canadian whisky is not bourbon.

Wasn't there a movie about how much Canadian beer sucked?  ;D

I'm mostly just being a smart ass.
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Beta

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #16 on: (16:50:57/07-31-17) »

(Apparently Canada is the beer capital of the world, as Canadian consume more beer per person then anywhere else!)
<Looks at waist line.> Yep, I can believe that.


Now, where did I put that can of beer.... it's time for corn flakes!

Not remotely close:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_beer_consumption_per_capita

Not sure about your farming claims, didn't check those ones, both sound weird, but stranger things have happened...

rednblack

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #17 on: (13:25:37/08-04-17) »
On the 10 percent of 10 percent of 10 percent argument, would this still hold true for the late 2070s?  I would think that magical testing would become rather ubiquitous, so at least magically active SINners would know that they're magically active, and this would likely result in resources being diverted their way to develop those talents.

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Tecumseh

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #18 on: (17:16:26/08-04-17) »
I haven't followed this whole thread but I was flipping through Forbidden Arcana last night when I came across this line on p. 103:

Quote
As of January 1, 2079, Seattle has 1,414 registered full mages, but 8,849 aspected. There clearly are SINless mages who would bulk up those numbers.

The Seattle Box Set gives Seattle's population as 3,103,250 if you add up all the neighborhoods. (Curiously, this is down 0.3% from Seattle 2072's figures.) It's unclear whether these figures include the SINless or not, but given the relatively large populations for Redmond and Puyallup I'm going to guess that they do.

Forbidden Arcana did not give population figures for adepts or mystic adepts, or if it did I haven't found the reference yet.

1,414 full mages + 8,849 aspected mages = 10,263 mages of some sort. The SINless would add a percentage to that but I don't know how much.

10,263 / 3,103,250 = 0.33% of the Seattle population is a registered mage.

Presumably the adepts and the unregistered/SINless mages increase the number of Awakened significantly.

I will say that this is not compatible with The Wyrm Ouroboros' "traditional" understanding, which would suggest that only 0.01% of the population is magically active and knows what to do with it. I will say that I haven't heard Wyrm's quote before, and to my knowledge it is not canon.

Sphinx

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #19 on: (18:16:17/08-04-17) »
Forbidden Arcana contradicts itself. According to the table on page 105, there are ten full magicians for every 10,000 people (i.e., one for every thousand, or 0.1%) and forty aspected magicians (i.e., four in a thousand, or 0.4%). That means there should be about 3,000 full magicians in Seattle, and 12,000 aspected magicians. More, since magicians are also supposed to concentrate disproportionately in cities.

In order to get the numbers you quoted from page 103, Icarus would have to be using some subset of Seattle districts, not counting the entire sprawl. Maybe he figures the "real" Seattle doesn't include the barrens, or Fort Lewis, or Tacoma ...

Tecumseh

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #20 on: (18:24:51/08-04-17) »
I'll note that Icarus' comment was for registered magicians. It's entirely possible that the differences between p. 103 and the table on p. 105 are due to registration, or the SINless gap that Icarus mentions.

The inconsistency that bothers me more is that adepts are mentioned as a subset of "aspected magicians" on p. 105, which is never the language that's been applied to them before.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #21 on: (03:28:32/08-05-17) »
I will say that this is not compatible with The Wyrm Ouroboros' "traditional" understanding, which would suggest that only 0.01% of the population is magically active and knows what to do with it. I will say that I haven't heard Wyrm's quote before, and to my knowledge it is not canon.

Well, here's one part:
Quote from: SR2, Awakenings, p.9, rightmost column
How many magicians are there?
          Magicians are fairly rare. Statistics show that about one person in a hundred has enough talent to make active use of magic. Of those individuals, only about one in ten are fully capable magicians, while others are adepts or untrained individuals. Approximately 3-4 million fully capable magicians exist today,and studies show their number rising each year[/i].

Here's the original critical one, though:
Quote from: SR1, Grimoire, p.9, first column, third paragraph
          Second, magicians are the smallest minority of the population.  One percent of the people in the world can use magic at all.  Perhaps 90 percent of those are minor magicians, or never get the proper training, or go crazy trying to deal with what they are.  There are maybe three to four million fully capable, trained, competent magicians in the Sixth World, though some studies suggest that the percentage is rising with each new generation.

Shadowrun typically uses the world population at publication for convenience's sake; this was when the world population was approximately five and a quarter billion (1990).  Using the 4 million number, this would put the 'fully capable, trained, competent magicians' at 0.000757771% - 7.5 in every 10,000, or one in every 1,320 individuals.  I grant that that's not the 10% of 10% of 1% that I spoke of previously, but 15 out of every 20,000 is ... thin.  Compare to the 2015 percentage of physicians (of all specialties) in the US: of a population of 321,773,631, there were 860,939 physicians - 0.00268%, or 26.75 in every 10,000, or 1 for every 374 people.  (General practice physicians are notably more rare - 0.00034588%, or 3.45 for every 10,000 - 1 per 2891 citizens, or about half as common as magicians.)

Something I read recently while skimming for this (therefore I don't recall where it was, but I THINK it was for SR5) indicated that for every full mage, there were 3 mages with 'restricted' magic - sorcerers, or conjurers, or adepts of some sort or another.  I may have to hunt around to find that ...
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Senko

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #22 on: (01:18:48/08-07-17) »
Sorry could you explain that again it looks to me like they're saying the same thing. 1in 100 =1% and of those number 1 in 10 are fully capable magicians = 90% don't amount to anything.

As for why it hasn't gone up magic is still fairly new and in some areas/groups opposed so being identified as a mage can get you killed like it can homo and transsexuals today. In fact I'm about 90% sure there's still areas that haven't removed the stoned to death penalty for witchcraft from the lawbooks. May have to look into that. . .   Plus of course even if the testing is ubiquitous in some areas it isn't in others and even in the ones it is it isn't 100% reliable in finding someone has magical potential. I recall one piece of fluff talking about AR games released to kids with testing programs designed to indicate of they have the potential to have a potential for magic but no guarantee it'll find all mages or not generate false positives.

rednblack

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #23 on: (14:07:31/08-07-17) »
@Senko, I understand that sentiment, but I'm not sure that I agree.  The quoted material is from 1e, which means it reflects a 2050 truth about the Sixth World.  For it to still be accurate, that would mean that testing, evaluation, and cultivation of magical assets hasn't improved in 29 years of rather marked advancement in other areas of magical evolution and growth - Mystic Adepts, for example.

Even of the 90% who don't amount to anything, I'm wondering if someone with a better lore understanding than myself can explain if this means that they don't amount to anything having to do with being a magical threat -- e.g. they would neither be a shadowrunner spell slinger nor corp mage -- or if that means that they wouldn't directly capitalize off of their magical skills at all.  For example, even a lowly MAG 1 Aspected Summoner would be able to assense a group of high school seniors, and you only need 1 Hit to determine if an individual is magically active.  Ditto HR at pretty much any corp worthy of having an HR department.

On the prejudice angle, remember that 1. that cuts both ways -- awakened individuals are prized and respected in the NAN, for example; and 2. playing off of the dystopian elements of SR, I would think that monitoring, categorizing, and labeling those scary finger-wigglers would be as much of a priority for anti-magic areas of the globe as others.  Governments have always been much more adept as monitoring potential enemies of the state than they are Joe Wageslave.   

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Senko

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #24 on: (19:34:45/08-07-17) »
It may have gotten better but even in the current era I'm pretty sure its not perfect. I've mainly been involved with 5th ed stuff and I do recall that bit of text about AR games from there and to train a mage you first have to find a mage.

I'm not that big an expert on the lore but I'm pretty sure part of why those 90% don't amount to anything is that its written from a corpish perspective and they would only be interested in mages, shinto magicians and other traditions that work well in a 9-5 or otherwise structured job. There's plenty of religous ones who wouldn't even want to touch those because they aren't an Iman, Christian priest, etc. It does them no good if the super powerful and experienced mage when asked to assense the kids say's "Sorry the sun is in the house of vega and my spirit guardian has instructed me to meditate upon the sand of yiega for the next 9 months in order to open the inner eye and perceive the truths shrouded in the mists of Catahenia."

Prejudice might be good at identifying them in some places but in others its just happy to hit anyone they deem "off" regardless of whether its true or not.

Still its always up to you to decide how common you want them in your game and even how big an effect supply and demand has on their working conditions.
« Last Edit: (23:09:17/08-08-17) by Senko »

Senko

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #25 on: (23:10:39/08-08-17) »
Think this was posted already but my phone isn't easy to read this site on and I'm posting rather than editing so people will notice it. forbidden Arcana says magic population is. . . .

1) 1% of the population.
2) Half of those are unaware of that talent or its too minor to make a difference.
3) Six out of Seven with magic strong enough to count are aspected or adepts.
4) Full mages are one in a thousand or roughly 1 thousand mages per million people.
5) That one thousand per million is skeweed towards cities rather than rural areas because that's where the jobs are.
6) They get six figure salaries plus perks and eccentricities are ignored especially if they take their job seriously.
7 Coyote and time clocks don't mix.
8) Aspected mages earn about 60k a year.

EDIT
An actual breakdown table showed up later.

For each 10,000 people there are...

1) 10 full mages usually hermetic, shamanic or physical.
2) 40 aspected magicians.
4) 100 sparks (technically magical)
5) 9,850 non-magical people.

For those 40 aspected magicians...

1) 8 conjurers.
2) 8 sorcerers.
3) 8 physical adepts.
4) 4 apprentice's.
5) 4 enchanters.
6) 4 explorers (astral projection talent).

For those 100 sparks...

1) 20 are aware (can astrally perceive)

So there's the 5th Ed take. Interestingly it supports your view magic is getting more common as theres about 10 times as many full mages as there were previously with australia having about 24 thousand full mages. Still get great working conditions though.

rednblack

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #26 on: (10:36:44/08-09-17) »
That's really interesting. Thanks for posting.

I wonder is Sparks would show up as magically active -- are they MAG 1 or >MAG 1?
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Senko

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #27 on: (01:19:10/08-10-17) »
Tough question I'd say less than 1 as even a magic 1 player character can with time, training (and karma) become a magic 10+ powerful mage. Then again at zero you loose all magical ability. So I'd say sparks are either a special case between zero and one or what a magic zero being is as opposed to magic N/A. That is a mundane has no magic stat whereas a spark or burnt out mage has magic zero. They're awakened but don't even have enough power to kindle into something more.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #28 on: (02:51:08/08-10-17) »
No, a burn-out is no longer Awakened.  A major event (on the scale of the Halley's Comet worldwide mana surge) would be required to 'reAwaken' their magic, as happened to the ex-mage rigger in 'The Burning Times'.  A mage standing in a fovae might have Magic 0, but it is a temporary condition, imposed upon him; he is still a mage.  A burnout has destroyed the last vestiges of his magic, and no matter how much karma he spends on trying to bind power foci, he won't be able to do a damn thing.  It's the difference between an empty bucket (the mage drained of his power) and a bucket with holes all through it, including in the bottom (the burnout).

Sparks are those who are Awakened, but whose innate Talent is so narrow that they can do only one thing.  'The Aware' is one such 'spark', using Priority D, gaining a Magic rating of 3, and being able to use one rating 4 Magical skill, most typically Assensing since it dovetails with .  others would be those unpublished ones who can only cast one individual (or one category) of spell, who can only defend against spells, who can conjure only one type of spirit (or, possibly, only one particular spirit, with restrictions on its return after being destroyed/banished equivalent to that of a free spirit's return), who can only banish spirits, who can only enchant one type of focus, or other similar 'one-shot wonder' sorts.  A magic 1 spark will never (without GM's permission at expanding their ability range in steps, and in exchange for whole bucketloads of karma) be able to do more than that single thing - but that doesn't say they can't get extremely good at what they do.

Take the Aware spark as an example.  This assensing wonder is already professional-grade at their own little narrow corner of Talent, and with a few add-ons from elsewhere (2 special attribute points and 2 skill points) and a proper build otherwise could very quickly fit into the slot of 'Knight Errant astral detective'.  Add on a few years and more karma, and soon you have a Grade 4 Initiate with a Magic 10 and the ability to not only Mask, but pierce Masking, use Sensing to feel astral energies without even needing to shift their perceptions, and use Psychometry to gain information off objects.  And nothing says they cannot bind weapon foci; if they went with some sort of melee combat skill, well - they might not be adepts or mages, but that experienced KE 'spook' with that old horn-handled knife on his belt could go one-on-one in a knife fight with some of the nastier gangers in the sprawl - and come out on top.

For those looking, the stuff quoted by Senko is Forbidden Arcana, p.102.  The demographic sidebar giving the numbers layout is p.105.
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Senko

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Re: Number of mages working jobs in capital cities.
« Reply #29 on: (05:32:06/08-10-17) »
I see not what I'd call a "Spark" but that's just quibbling over terms, thanks for the info.