Author Topic: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts  (Read 680 times)

JmOz01

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 575
Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« on: (19:28:40/05-17-17) »
I don't know if this belongs here or not, but I feel that MA's should have two changes made to them:

1) May purchase additional Powerpoints after character creation.  I would require them to purchase a formula...

2) They can sacrifice spells for Power Points at character Creation...

SlashXVI

  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #1 on: (00:05:56/05-18-17) »
I don't know if this belongs here or not, but I feel that MA's should have two changes made to them:

1) May purchase additional Powerpoints after character creation.  I would require them to purchase a formula...

2) They can sacrifice spells for Power Points at character Creation...

1) This would be an absolutely major buff to mystic adepts and most likely completely overshadow regular adepts, as it allows the MysAd to dip into all the strenghts of an adept as well as all the strenghts of a mage. Depending on where you put the limit for the total amount of powerpoints the MysAd is allowed to have, you will either get incredibly strong ones or totally overpowered ones. Purchasing a formula is not a reasonable tradeoff, as most magical characters are not really lacking in the financial department and formulas are also not that expensive. The reason why MysAd can work like they do (and they are already considered to be one of the strongest and potentially most broken character types) is that you are sacrificing the opportunity to pick something else whenever you are taking powerpoints. Either additional qualities/skills/ressources/etc. at character creation or a metamagic on initiation. Removing that restriction has the potential to heavily unbalance this character class.

2) This is a more minor buff and one I have seen in some houserules. Personally I do not like this one either, because if you think about it; it comes down to a limited version of the first one. Spells are 5 Karma to learn and you need to buy a formula, so picking up the maximum amount of powerpoints at character creation and then learning the spells after the fact is the same cost as buying powerpoints after creation. Also with the way magic priorities grant you a huge number of spells either way, even if you do not intend to use them, I feel like this would not be a very hard tradeoff and very much open for abuse.

Overall I would be very carefull with allowing anything that can potentially increase the powerlevel of MysAds, as they are on the brink of disbalance already (the judgement is open on which side they currently fall to). I also do not see a reason to make powerpoints more accesible to MysAds that is not "to make them more powerful", but I may not be seeing the whole picture here, so feel free to add to this.

JmOz01

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 575
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #2 on: (07:00:18/05-18-17) »
My main issues are that

1) I think that (w/o Initiating) there should be SOME WAY to increase your adept powers after character gen.  I understand tradeoffs I just feel there should be a way, that is inline with other Awakened

2) It comes down to some concepts, I realize some new powers make it a little bit easier but if I want to be more adept than mystic there is no good way

also value is valuea new spell is 5 points, a new power point is 5 points

UnLimiTeD

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 760
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #3 on: (08:09:55/05-18-17) »
1) No, this is probably not the right subforum for this. Not for me to judge, though.
2) MyAds are just ... sort of overpowered. I agree it's dumb you have to spend the karma at chargen or never again, and being able to raise them like Magic for new rating x5 could work out, but the basic premise is that you have to decide what you want out of your MyAd; You want to be mostly an Adept? Then initiate into more power points and pick as many of them at the start as possible. With Karma gen, it's not actually expensive, you have 800 of the stuff.
Or you could pick an actual Adept and go with Adept Spell and Barehanded Adept, which will eventually give you 5 spells to use, though 4 will be touch only.

A freeform magic system, as wakshaani has said, was planned, but didn't get off the ground. So right now we don't really have an Adept with more spell, we only have a magician that trades projection for also being an adept.
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

The Bald Man

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 163
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #4 on: (17:00:06/05-18-17) »
I get teh game balance involved.  Mystic Adept 'loses' a lot of Karma at generation to get those power points.  That is about the only drawback.
From a development standpoint (by this I mean birth to present) the adept got all their power all at once?!  Poof!  Then...One day...6 power points!  No training.  Bang!
I think that is ...unimaginative.

Kiirnodel

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • *
  • Posts: 978
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #5 on: (05:16:38/05-19-17) »
I get teh game balance involved.  Mystic Adept 'loses' a lot of Karma at generation to get those power points.  That is about the only drawback.
From a development standpoint (by this I mean birth to present) the adept got all their power all at once?!  Poof!  Then...One day...6 power points!  No training.  Bang!
I think that is ...unimaginative.

Not quite how that works. The Awakened don't just "Poof!" Magic 6! They grow into that power gradually. So when the Adept first Awakens they have start with a Magic of 1, then over time train and grow into having a higher Magic Rating. They gain those power points along with the Magic Rating (You don't automatically start with a Magic Rating of 6).

That being said, I do agree with the assessment that it seems odd that Mystic Adepts can never raise the number of Power Points that they get. The idea that at some arbitrary moment (finalizing character creation), they suddenly lose the ability to learn additional power points. That seems odd, and in my personal game I have allowed Mystic Adepts to learn Power Points after character creation at double cost (10 karma instead of 5). This is, of course, limited still to a maximum of their Magic Rating.

I feel like doing that encourages the Mystic Adept to actually make their character more balanced at character creation and not spend all their effort trying to make sure they get the maximum number of Power Points that they can. I've seen Mystic Adept builds that use Exceptional Attribute + 35 karma just to buy up to 7 Power Points at chargen, putting them a leg-up on Power Points compared to others, even if it gives them some disadvantages from the start. Those can be bought off later, you can't buy Power Points later. Having a resource that is flat-out only available during character creation is strange, and as far as I'm aware, MysAd PP's is the only one (other than being a Magician, Adept, etc).

JmOz01

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 575
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #6 on: (07:43:39/05-19-17) »
Considering the general attitude is they are borderline over powered...

What about: Allowing the spell for PP swap

Then increasing the cost for them to buy addition spells and powerpoints.  I think 10 might be to high, but 7 (inline with Technomancers) seems okay...

The Bald Man

  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 163
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #7 on: (08:49:05/05-19-17) »
...The idea that at some arbitrary moment (finalizing character creation), they suddenly lose the ability to learn additional power points. ...

That's really what I was poking at. 

Considering the general attitude is they are borderline over powered...

What about: Allowing the spell for PP swap

Then increasing the cost for them to buy addition spells and powerpoints.  I think 10 might be to high, but 7 (inline with Technomancers) seems okay...

I think 10 or more karma.  keep in mind the other way to get a power point is to initiate - which costs 13+.  making it cost twice as much post gen puts it in line with qualities - which is a pretty even playing field at creation. 

JmOz01

  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 575
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #8 on: (10:27:54/05-19-17) »
I can agree with you if it was just power points, but by including spells in the increase it would make it more limiting, but also mechanically simpler.  It would also fit into the "everything at a cost" idea.  Being an adept is more challenging to grow than a mage (Horizontally not vertically) but you have more options. 

adzling

  • Troubleshooter
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2248
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #9 on: (10:42:42/05-19-17) »
1). You initiate and take a powerpoint instead of a metamagic. That's how you get PP post chargen.

2). There is a way, you take all your PP at chargen then initiate and take more PP in lieu of a metamagic.

TL:DR you can already do what you're asking (get more PP post chargen) they follow the same costs as regular non-MA adepts. Asking to get them cheaper than adepts is just more cheese for an already broken archetype.

My main issues are that

1) I think that (w/o Initiating) there should be SOME WAY to increase your adept powers after character gen.  I understand tradeoffs I just feel there should be a way, that is inline with other Awakened

2) It comes down to some concepts, I realize some new powers make it a little bit easier but if I want to be more adept than mystic there is no good way

also value is valuea new spell is 5 points, a new power point is 5 points
Live in the SF Bay Area and looking for a group? PM me we have a slot open!

Kiirnodel

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • *
  • Posts: 978
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #10 on: (15:18:56/05-19-17) »
1). You initiate and take a powerpoint instead of a metamagic. That's how you get PP post chargen.

2). There is a way, you take all your PP at chargen then initiate and take more PP in lieu of a metamagic.

TL:DR you can already do what you're asking (get more PP post chargen) they follow the same costs as regular non-MA adepts. Asking to get them cheaper than adepts is just more cheese for an already broken archetype.

But this begs the question of why do some Mystic Adepts have access to more Power Points without Initiating than others? (Those who spend more karma at chargen to buy PP's, rather than making a balanced character and spending karma evenly).

It really does make a disconnect between rules and in-game situations, the end of character creation becomes an arbitrary locking point where the Mystic Adept is suddenly unable to spend karma to buy up their Power Points.

For me, this just brings me back to the concept that while yes, Mystic Adepts are unbalanced, it isn't because they have the ability to buy Power Points on top of being a Magician. It's because there is nothing to balance them out as they expand in power. Nothing that makes a Mystic Adept a less powerful Magician if they make their Adept-side more powerful. In all the previous editions, Mystic Adepts always had to make a choice, being more Adept, meant they were less magician (or in the case of 3rd, being more magician meant they had less adept). 5th edition did away with that and now we have a "balance issue" and what we need is something that actually balances them back out...

adzling

  • Troubleshooter
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2248
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #11 on: (11:01:34/05-21-17) »
i agree that mystic adepts do not work properly in advancement.
I agree that previous editions had a better approach.

however what i described is RAW and RAI.
Live in the SF Bay Area and looking for a group? PM me we have a slot open!

Kiirnodel

  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • *
  • Posts: 978
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #12 on: (14:09:49/05-21-17) »
i agree that mystic adepts do not work properly in advancement.
I agree that previous editions had a better approach.

however what i described is RAW and RAI.

Correct, I wasn't trying to say that your statement of how the rules are was flawed. I was pointing out how the rules themselves are flawed.

The OP was asking about ways to change/houserule Mystic Adepts.

Glyph

  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1594
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #13 on: (22:44:01/06-10-17) »
Maybe a house rule could be that you can buy power points, either during (normal rules) or after (at 10 Karma per point) character creation, but with the same limits as character creation - only up to your pre-initiation maximum Magic rating, and after that you can only get power points from initiation and selecting a power point instead of a metamagic.  So, for example, if you had a Magic of 6, you could get 3 power points at character creation, then up to 3 more power points after character creation, before needing to initiate in order to get more power points.

gradivus

  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1130
Re: Not sure if this belongs here...Mystic Adepts
« Reply #14 on: (23:49:44/06-10-17) »

But this begs the question of why do some Mystic Adepts have access to more Power Points without Initiating than others? (Those who spend more karma at chargen to buy PP's, rather than making a balanced character and spending karma evenly).



Simple- cannon has it that not all awakened are equal.
The disconnect in the rules is actually that every awakened can start with MR6 [or 7 with quality).
By what's written in the novels, the amount of people with less than 6 MR or less than 6 Power points should vastly outnumber the people people with 6 or more.
But how often do you see people go with less than the maximum they can go with [including people with ware- they may not have six MR but they normally have the maximum MR they are allowed with the essence they have left).

Personally if a character wanted to swap a spell for a power point, I'd let him as that spell is worth the same 5 karma as a MysAd's chargen PP.
"Speech" Thought >>Matrix<< Astral