[Novocrane]

No, I'm pointing out that you can start with A, B, and C.

If B equals A, then B equalling B+C does not mean A now equals A+C.

[firebug]

You're not following your own logic...  Are you trolling?  Are you intoxicated?  What's gotten into you?

Do you think you roll AR Initiative and Physical Initiative separately and act based on both at once?  How do you see this playing out?

Seriously...  Let's say I'm a hacker in AR; with a MDCP module...  So I have REA + INT + 2d6 for initiative, assuming I have nothing else boosting it?  So if I get a total of say, 18 initiative, what's to stop me from using both of those passes to do physical actions like combat?  You can do physical actions while using AR.  That's why it uses your physical initiative score; that's why it's boosted by things like Wired Reflexes (because they boost your physical initiative.)

If you're always in AR, when do you use your physical initiative, if it's not the same?  Or are you saying this person rolls two separate initiative scores at once, which is never referenced in the rules to do?

Also that equation makes no sense...  A sum cannot equal itself plus something (B + 1 cannot equal B) unless that something is 0, in which case yes, if A = B, and C is 0, then A + 0 = B + 0.  You're seriously not making any sense.

[Novocrane]

AR initiative is derived from meat initiative.

Bonus AR initiative is not bonus meat initiative.

Thus the difference between your meat and AR initiative is 1d6. Roll physical, roll 1d6. Follow the simple instructions for initiative passes. When you have run out of meat initiative, you may still have some AR initiative left over.

A sum cannot equal itself plus something

http://www.programmingsimplified.com/c-program-add-two-numbers

[Kiirnodel]

Is that one bonus die held in reserve and if it just so happens to push the character to another pass they get a set of Matrix-only actions? What you're suggesting is beyond silly. While using AR, the character is acting physically, not digitally. The multi-dimensional co-processor isn't affecting their reaction time, it doesn't let them process stimuli faster.

In VR, it does, because it is speeding up the transmission of that stimuli and aiding your commlink, cyberdeck, etc to transmit the information faster, just like difference between hot- and cold-sim.

In AR, the user is reacting to the displays on a screen in their physical field of vision, it doesn't matter if the commlink (etc) is responding a fraction faster, the user is still a physical being acting at physical response times.

[Hobbes]

Er?

P. 101
Initiative (Intuition + Reaction) + 1D6

Matrix AR Initiative (Intuition + Reaction) + 1D6

Am I missing something?  AR and Physical initiative are the same.  It's as though physical people are in AR pretty much by default or something.   : )

[Hobbes]

Looking through the rules I just noticed something: There is no requirement to form a persona to use matrix actions in general.
It seems to be implied, but it actually isn't really spelled out as far as I can see.

So depending on the device it could be enough to give voice commands to control its actions as long as it's recognizing you as its owner.

....

I think you may be right, although most Matrix actions have a ASD or F as a Limit which you couldn't have without a Matrix Persona.  So, safe to assume forming a Persona is an RAI requirement for Matrix Actions.

[ClaytonCross]

Looking through the rules I just noticed something: There is no requirement to form a persona to use matrix actions in general.
It seems to be implied, but it actually isn't really spelled out as far as I can see.

So depending on the device it could be enough to give voice commands to control its actions as long as it's recognizing you as its owner.

....

I think you may be right, although most Matrix actions have a ASD or F as a Limit which you couldn't have without a Matrix Persona.  So, safe to assume forming a Persona is an RAI requirement for Matrix Actions.

Why would you not use the states of the device like normal? You can perform matrix actions with a commlink even though it does not have Attack or sleaze.... If your using a deck to perform matrix actions and not using AR or VR you would still be able to use its stats and instead of a persona you would use the decks icon. I don't see anything in the rules preventing this. If you lay a deck on a table and walk away from it and someone searches for it in the matrix doesn't it still get sleaze on defense roll from being spotted? If what your saying is true any unattended gear would automatically show up on a search roll even if running silent because its stats don't matter....  ASDF belong to the device which is combine to make a persona. That does not mean they only haves those states when used to create a persona.

[Hobbes]

If you're using a Commlink to perform Matrix Actions congratulations you've formed a Persona.  You have to be in AR or VR to perform a Matrix Action, unless 5th edition included "Turtle" rules somewhere.  (I honestly can't recall)   I don't know how you're performing any kind of Matrix Action without a Persona.  I suppose "Send Message" but that doesn't require a dice check and has no Limit so, sure, whatever.  You'll really have to go through some mental contortions to come up with a scenario where you're doing some kind of Matrix Action that requires a roll without using some kind of Commlink/RCC/Deck to form a Persona.

[Jack_Spade]

Control device comes to mind as an action where you not necessarily need to form a persona. Also I imagine if you are using a throwback computer system you can use the device without a persona.
Finally, you can have an Agent form the only persona on your device and just give it commands to act on your behalf (That is personally my favorite use for this: Have my Agent be constantly on Full defense and communicate with my commlink through my micro transceiver)

[Hobbes]

Control Device typically doesn't have a Matrix Attribute limit associated with it.  You'd normally be using Gunnery or Piloting or whatever.  If it's not your device and you need to make, is it EW?, roll then a Matrix Attribute is a limit and you'd need a Persona. 

[ClaytonCross]

1. There is no rule that says you need to create a persona to perform a matrix action.
2. ASDF Stats are tied to equipment not the persona
3. Unattended equipment still gets to role defense tests (which are dice polls)
4. You use a sleaze dongle on a comlink to make it harder to find, this still makes it harder to find if your not using it.

"If you're using a Commlink to perform Matrix Actions congratulations you've formed a Persona." Where does it say this anywhere in the book? Only VR and AR can create persona's.

 "I suppose "Send Message""
That's right, if its not AR or VR it would not require a persona it does have a limit of data processing for tests I believe. Also, a matrix search which does not require AR/VR but does have a dice pool, does not require a persona. A mage without a data link or AR device can browse the web with there commlink using there skill and the devices limit without creating a persona.

If you say I am wrong paste the rule from the book with a page number. My position is that people are adding rules of dependency that don't exist. You can easily prove me wrong if you can post the rule for verification.

Control Device, Matrix Search, and Send Message maybe the only actions a commlink can do with out AR/VR but that's enough to prove my point.

[Hobbes]

Question 1.  The first part of "How to Matrix" is are you using AR or VR?  Either way, you've formed a Persona.  Again, I can't recall if 5th edition has "Turtle" rules or not.  (Turtle is 1rst edition slang for not jacking into the Matrix or using old school keyboard and monitor stuff, I don't know what you kids call it these days)

If you're not forming a Persona for Matrix Actions why would a Decker ever form a Persona? 

If you're not forming a Persona for Matrix Actions and can pick and choose what device for what Limit you want you can just carry around a collection of devices with different limits and pick the best limit for each action. 

If you're not forming a Persona for Matrix Actions Cybercombat becomes absolutely silly as you're just moving an attack dongle around from device to device as assorted gear gets it's Matrix Condition monitors filled up.

These are all bad things. 

And how in the world are you targeting Icons to do anything without using AR or VR and therefore forming a Persona?

Certainly your table, do what you want and all, but outside of Direct Access and some GM handwaiving of minor fluffy stuff (Send Message, form a PAN, update Mefeed,) you'll need a Persona to do Matrix Actions.

And to answer questions 2 through 4, those are Device Icons.  Yes they have stats and make resistance tests.


Edit:  And for your RAW consumption:  User Modes p. 229 (emphasis mine)

USER MODES
When you interact with the Matrix, you can do it in one
of three modes. In augmented reality, or AR mode, you
deal with reality directly, and you use your meat body
to interact with the Matrix through AR overlays. In virtual reality, or VR mode, your body goes limp and your
only sensory input comes from the Matrix. Basic VR
mode is cold-sim, meaning you interact with the Matrix primarily through sight and sound. In hot-sim VR
mode, your have the full Matrix experience, involving
all of your senses as well as your emotions. You can
perform Matrix actions in any of the three modes.

[ClaytonCross]

"If you're not forming a Persona for Matrix Actions why would a Decker ever form a Persona?" because of the advantages of AR and VR... as a decker your always looking for an edge in the matrix. Why would anyone go hot-sim and risk death for 2 more dice when they have a pool of 12? But they do, for every little inch.

"You can perform Matrix actions in any of the three modes." Can is not must. If they intend for AR/VR to be a requirement for matrix actions. Why does it not actually say that any where? It seems to imply Turtle rules still exist by the fact that is a real world standard. The implication that all old technology has been wiped out and AR/VR is a requirement of matrix actions seem much more far fetched without some support.

"If you're not forming a Persona for Matrix Actions and can pick and choose what device for what Limit you want you can just carry around a collection of devices with different limits and pick the best limit for each action." What prevents you from doing this if you form a persona? How is that different from changing the array of a deck?

"If you're not forming a Persona for Matrix Actions Cybercombat becomes absolutely silly as you're just moving an attack dongle around from device to device as assorted gear gets it's Matrix Condition monitors filled up."
Even attacking a persona, you don't take bio feed back in AR so how is that not possible to switch from deck to deck to deck? Its just you would have to be insanely rich to do that and you should consider retiring your character... you have won shadowrun already, lol. Plus, all the matrix actions that would allow that to happen would get the attention of G.O.D. and lone star would likely show up and kill you.... just saying.

"Certainly your table, do what you want and all, but outside of Direct Access and some GM handwaiving of minor fluffy stuff (Send Message, form a PAN, update Mefeed,) you'll need a Persona to do Matrix Actions." Your talking like I am house ruling but your the one claiming a requirement not listed in the book... I am just saying if it is RAW, show me where.

[Kiirnodel]

I've always viewed personas as something similar to a user log-in on a computer. For example, when I turn on my PC (real world, the one I'm typing on right now), my computer automatically logs me in as my User account. It does this automatically, because there aren't any other accounts registered on the computer, but if there were, it would ask me to pick an account. Most computers do this, and even if it doesn't ask which user you are, it is usually because it is using some sort of default, at the very least filing the activity under the default Admin user account.

In the Shadowrun setting, I imagine this works in a similar fashion, your primary device (commlink, cyberdeck, etc), is probably set up to use some sort of default account based on how you set it up when you bought it. When you turn on these devices, it logs you in and connects to the Matrix. The rules do mention several times in several places that Personas are how a user interacts with the Matrix. "When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon..." (Page 235 Core Rulebook).

Now, some devices might be able to generate more than one persona, through the use of Agents, which results in more than one 'user' being active at once. And some devices won't create their own personas because they function in a supplementary role (devices attached to a PAN).

The items like the toaster and the coffee maker in the OP are examples of this last thing. They might have access to receive information from the Matrix, they might even have displays that allow a user to interact, but they aren't really the device that accesses the Matrix. That responsibility belongs to the Commlink of the user. You can use those devices or issue them commands in much the same way you might interact with the Matrix using AR gloves and goggles for a display.

[ClaytonCross]

@Kiirnodel

I really like your post. The only point of issue I have is that there is no role for a "turtle" as Hobbes called it. It implies that everything running on the matrix has to be tied to a persona or pan. There needs to be an "default admin" account on devices for initial setup to bring them into your pan set it up to except ownership and receive your persona. Also, "When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon..." implies that your intent is to connect to the matrix, but if you push the button on the coffee machine and it pulls the latest firmware to ensure quality of coffee, its performing the matrix search its self as a "turtle" / "default admin". Now they still registered ownership to you when you bought it. So when the coffee max pro sends its icon across the matrix to check for those firmware udates... they can still log into the device gather its serial and confirm owner ship. Like wise when someone breaks into your commlink with brute force attack to get a mark it sends you a bruteforce warning. You don't have to login with your persona for it to perform that action.