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Technomancer feedback for a new book!

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prionic6

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« Reply #45 on: <06-02-15/0323:55> »
The character creation chapter in the core rulebook has a technomancer named James. The way his living persona is calculated is wrong - everything is corresponding mental attribute +2, but I think that could be a leftover from an old way to calculate those values. I think having that +2 would really free up some important resources for a freshly created technomancer.

UnLimiTeD

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« Reply #46 on: <06-02-15/0549:23> »
I think mesh reality is a great point when it comes to dronomancers:
Combining that with yet another echo or CF or whatever it is TMs do to do these things, a Technomancer could jump into a device and still have an action in the real world. Like hotsim + Control of your legs and a little "AR"-window in your VR, so you can walk behind your drone and take cover.^^
Sometimes it's not about giving the hacker a reason to be with the team, but the option.
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Miri

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« Reply #47 on: <06-03-15/0621:55> »
This one is going to sound a bit odd, but I don't think I have seen any official comment about it anywhere.

Page 251 Core book, Threading says that a TM can Thread a CF up to his Resonance x3.  Is that really correct?  Can a Resonance 6 TM Thread up a Level 18 Resonance Spike and then try to soak 18 Fade?

Also, why are TMs limited to a max of Resonance x2 for known complex forms?  (Page 252 core book, Resonance Library).

What happens to the temporary matrix condition boxes granted to a device/persona that gets buffed by the Redundancy CF?  Does the device take damage on those boxes first and when the CF is no longer being sustained does the damage disappear into the Resonance?
« Last Edit: <06-03-15/0628:19> by Miri »

firebug

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« Reply #48 on: <06-03-15/1714:34> »
Oh, I think this has been said before but I want to restate it for effect.

TMs need ways to make use of the cyberprograms!  Many of them are basic functions that for deckers, are no big deal because it's only 250¥ at the most for one.  But because they are programs, technomancers miss out on some seriously powerful options, like Baby Monitor or Signal Scrubber, and they are incapable of dealing biofeedback damage because they can't get Blackout or Black Hammer.  Cat's Paw is another example of "Why does this need a program?".  It's now something no TM can do...

And keep in mind I am purposefully ignoring the Resonance Program echo, because under no circumstance is using a Submersion to buy what is normally 250¥ and exchangeable acceptable.  It just isn't.

Technomancer abilities should not all be Complex Forms or Echoes.  Give them things like Enhancements.  Simple one-time Karma purchases!  For basic, mid-power abilities that have no scaling.  This is what Skinlink could have been!  This will be what the old one-point CFs in 4th can be.  Simrig and Smartlink, for instance.  This is something so obvious and so necessary and so easy to implement!
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Novocrane

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« Reply #49 on: <06-03-15/2030:17> »
So ... would you support the idea of making Resonance Program a slot, rather than a wetwired program?

Triskavanski

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« Reply #50 on: <06-03-15/2036:43> »
For me, I would even take something where you have a one time resonance program thing. Sure you might start off without the programs, but the more you submerge the more powerful it becomes, eventually allowing you to even overcome the Deckers.

Something where you submerge once, get a program for each level of submerssion you've got. Then each level after that you get another program. This one time per program is crazy harsh, and its not just this echo, but like every technomancer echo. Not one of them so far upgrades with a higher resonance.

some of the things I'd have loved to have seen as well is take the Sleeze Echo - We'll call it silent runner.

1 sleeze per X resonance levels. In addition whenenver someone assesses you, you gain something like the mundane masking ability. Kinda annoying to me, that a Mage can just go "Yep. He's a technomancer." with a high enough assensing, and Technomancers can't really do anything back or against it.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Pixie

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« Reply #51 on: <06-04-15/0100:20> »
Firebug, with all due respect I disagree with your assessment that TMs should be able to use cyberprograms.  They're not deckers, and it's pretty clear from all the dev talk that I've seen that there is no intention of making TMs into "reskinned deckers."

The functionality that you're describing with biofeedback damage, baby monitor, etc. would be pretty easily worked into the existing systems.  Have a sprite that can act as a baby monitor, have an echo that allows you to choose to add biofeedback damage.  I'm not saying that you're wrong in your reasoning, I'm just saying that if those things were to be implemented, there are better ways than "let TMs use cyberprograms."

There are 26 cyberprograms listed in the core book.  12 of these add to limits or otherwise duplicate things that technomancers are already capable of handling.  Limits aren't often reached by many tables, so the really useful programs are those that increase dice pools or provide some other benefit (like biofeedback damage).  Data Trails added 16 new cyberprograms.  Of them, 7 of them are increases to deck attributes (aka: limits).  Most cyberprograms are utile only in specific circumstances, whereas complex forms and sprite powers are utile in a wide variety of circumstances.

So that means that of 42 programs, 23 are really unique to deckers and add some nifty functionality.  To be fair, I'm including some programs that I'm sure will have their functionality added to technomancers at some point (Hitchhiker, Nuke-from-Orbit, etc.).  If you opened all of those programs up to technomancers, and they had access to Complex Forms and echoes, it would be an all-out fiasco as the fans of deckers cried foul.

Rather, I think it's better to try to find the functionality that really adds to the experience of being a hacker and utilizing the new Matrix, and duplicate/provide alternatives for those specific functions.  By providing similar effects, you end up with something akin to that "reskinned decker" that I was talking about.  So alternatives that have wider-ranging functionality are, in my opinion, the better option.

However, that said, Firebug has a great point about some of the really useful cyberprograms.  Biofeedback can be huge, as can Defuse and Baby Monitor.  Some of the programs are just nifty to have around, like Evaluate and Fly on a Wall.  I'd suggest strongly trying to emulate the functionality of those cyberprograms by using echoes, complex forms, and sprite powers.

Triskavanski

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« Reply #52 on: <06-04-15/0156:31> »
Actually, right now, all those programs are already opened up to a technomancer thought he Resonance Program Echo.

The problem is just how late you get it, and how much it costs to get them. A Decker can pick up all those programs easily, switch through and load them, allowing him to be highly flexible early on. This flexibility continues through the game as they get more slots.

The problem with Technomancer's ability is that it costs one submersion per program. So thats 13+ karma per thing you want to add, and its very small effects, that do eventually add up, but that eventually starts costing an already karma starved character even more karma.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Pixie

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« Reply #53 on: <06-04-15/0241:19> »
Actually, right now, all those programs are already opened up to a technomancer thought he Resonance Program Echo.

The problem is just how late you get it, and how much it costs to get them. A Decker can pick up all those programs easily, switch through and load them, allowing him to be highly flexible early on. This flexibility continues through the game as they get more slots.

The problem with Technomancer's ability is that it costs one submersion per program. So thats 13+ karma per thing you want to add, and its very small effects, that do eventually add up, but that eventually starts costing an already karma starved character even more karma.

That's a great point, Trisk.  I'd like to see the option to purchase echoes without having to submerge, similar to how mages can purchase metamagics without requiring initiation.  There are limits to this, naturally.

Marcus

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« Reply #54 on: <06-04-15/0333:24> »
We already know that with lots of Karma Technos can be very effective hackers, pile up enough echos, and they can do some impressive things. But that's not really that useful or interesting. I do agree it is germane to the conversation, but the problem isn't the very top end, its the bottom end.
Techno using programs doesn't solve the issue of techno's being ineffective at starting points. Where deckers can simply pickup cyberware to give them some decent combat effectiveness Techno cannot, that issue is the one that concerns me.

Things like the recent pain editor echo, is really an interesting examples its both a step in the direction and a step in the wrong. It's an echo that effects meat world for which i approve. But taking a class that probably can't afford a decent body or any of the other standard methods of raising health levels, that also potentially takes damage using core abilities, and then take away there ability to track health levels seams like total madness to me.

« Last Edit: <06-05-15/1147:07> by Marcus »
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khevtol

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« Reply #55 on: <06-04-15/0435:02> »
This is tangential, but I would really like to see AI being able to be technomncers/access resonance. An AI technomancer is a really cool concept especially with the history of deus, and making it happen would rock.

So far as pure technomancers, I will add more tomorrow, but I would love to see gear and buyables for technomancers. Perhaps electronics that shouldn't logically work, but give technomancers some utility in meatspace, or things to get to give a house better signal, or better resonance access. Services from AI or technomancy groups that aid you...etc.

//will edit for spelling and add more things tomorrow

Triskavanski

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« Reply #56 on: <06-04-15/0712:19> »
We already know that with lots of Karma Technos can be very effective hackers, pile up enough echos, and they can do some impressive things. But that's not really that useful or interesting. I do agree it is germane to the conversation, but the problem isn't the very top end, its the bottom end.
Techno using programs doesn't solve the issue of techno's being ineffective at starting points. Where deckers can simply pickup cyberware to give them some decent combat effectiveness Techno cannot, that issue is the one that concerns me.

Things like the recent pain editor echo, is really an interesting examples its both a step in the direction and a step in the wrong. It's an echo that effects meat world for which i approve. But taking a class that probably can't afford a decent body or any of the other standard methods of raising heaths, that also potentially takes damage using core abilities, and then take away there ability to track health levels seams like total madness to me.

Well, you can turn on and off the pain editor. Its not something that has to stay on all the time. And if thats not good enough, a biomonitor will allow you to know your current health status. My Technomancers tend to forgo all other physical stats besides body.

Also, Willpower increases stun track. So.. if they're increasing their will, they'll have a higher stun track. (Hence again, why I stress the importantness of willpower)

In addition to that, the ability to turn off those wound modifiers allows you to heal faster. (along with the point of will power it gives while its on.)
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Triskavanski

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« Reply #57 on: <06-04-15/0716:43> »
Actually, right now, all those programs are already opened up to a technomancer thought he Resonance Program Echo.

The problem is just how late you get it, and how much it costs to get them. A Decker can pick up all those programs easily, switch through and load them, allowing him to be highly flexible early on. This flexibility continues through the game as they get more slots.

The problem with Technomancer's ability is that it costs one submersion per program. So thats 13+ karma per thing you want to add, and its very small effects, that do eventually add up, but that eventually starts costing an already karma starved character even more karma.

That's a great point, Trisk.  I'd like to see the option to purchase echoes without having to submerge, similar to how mages can purchase metamagics without requiring initiation.  There are limits to this, naturally.

I didn't know mages could pick up metamagics without initiation. I do know that several of their metamagics though do get strong each time they submerge, but they don't have to keep selecting the same one over and over again to make it more powerful. Like Centering gives a drain resistance increase equal to Initiation Grade.  So after doing just one initation, they've got that. Then they could go and pick up masking or quickening or some other ability and their Centering continues to keep increasing.

Though, I do know with centering, after they get it, they can get centering foci to further boost its power.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #58 on: <06-04-15/0743:27> »
In addition to that, the ability to turn off those wound modifiers allows you to heal faster. (along with the point of will power it gives while its on.)
Point of contention: wound modifiers do not apply to natural healing tests.

And to the OP:
I just realized that you absolutely can dramatically change what is given in core, if you want to. It's called Optional Rules, and they've been used in the past to dramatically change the way the game works.

So I'm hereby officially putting in my request for some of the changes suggested here (programs not requiring one echo each, echos that depend on submersion grade, skinlink as a default ability, etc, different fade values) to make it into your book as optional rules. I'm relatively confident that everyone in this thread will love you forever (or at least until the next controversial rule ;) ) if you did that...

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #59 on: <06-04-15/0750:40> »
Except for people who partiake in Missions play as they don't use any optional rules.
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